OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

[Smolder]

What if, as seems not impossible, undead enemies are simply a fairly rare thing to encounter and the Order of the Squiggle, high level characters though they were, simply had little or no contact with them prior to Xykon's emergence?

Rules-based jokes aside, characters in this world aren't issued a Player's Handbook & Monster Manual upon achieving their first Class Level that they can study.

Have you played D&D? It's virtually impossible to grind through enough levels to be considered high level without killing a few hundred undead. Of a wide variety. If you're having level appropriate encounters, you're tripping over undead around every turn.

[Kish]

There is no obligation for the DM to throw random undead encounters at PCs, and certainly no rule that states every campaign world is equally undead-heavy.

That said, I have never gotten the impression that undead are rare in the OotS universe. Xykon the living sorcerer had never heard of a lich when Redcloak mentioned them, but no one in the Order went, "Wait, a what?" when Elan called Xykon a mad lich.

You're basically postulating a system of spells with computer-level intelligence. That seems a bit too sci-fi for this setting, magical or not.

I never understand when people assert that magic should be more restricted than technology.

[Doug Lampert]

They don't have to be the same. I'd prefer them to be the same, because I think that if you can break an Epic-level spell by being a cheap joke, it looks less impressive that you can break the same Epic-level spell through serious character development.

We have no actual evidence that this was an epic spell. None. We've had people ASSERT that it was epic magic, but they've provided no evidence.

I'm not even sure where the evidence that Girard, a known multiclass character could CAST epic magic is, note that it's perfectly possible to be a pure caster and epic level and not have epic magic, and that Girard had levels in Ranger.

Really, what did the spell do that can't be explained by a non-epic phantasm?

I like Elan to be impressive. I thought it was cool he beat the spell the way he did.

And Nale breaking the spell for a joke doesn't weaken what Elan did at all. The Order of the Stick would still have been stuck without him, The Linear Guild could still have gotten free even if Nale had been stuck (Z could have pulled Nale out of the spell area or someone could have broken enchantment or any of a dozen other ways given that three full casters were still loose on that side).

[LokiRagnarok]

Circle theory:

So I was thinking, there seems to be no reason to make the circle visible unless it was meant to be seen.

If it was me, I would have made a small visible circle which does nothing and a larger invisible one around that which would be the one which triggers a real trap. But since they are standing so close to the visible circle, a larger invisible circle can be ruled out.

My guess is that the circle was there for members of the Draketooth family to see. Either it serves as a "Do not cross - you will be vaporized" warning line, or maybe someone stepping into the circle actually triggers some spell which would temporarily enhance the person stepping into the circle, with the idea to allow them a last spell against the intruders.

That said, I actually like Amphiox' idea better.

[davidbofinger]

quite possibly no self-destruct rune (only one of the gates has had one so far)

An illusion of self-destruction, followed by an illusion of an uncontained rift, would be clever. More clever than smart but maybe that's Girard. "Nothing to see here..."

[Justreader]

Girald believed in misdirection, not strength or honor (except family) or fulminating magic. Maybe the circle, instead of destroying the target, just erase its memory. All of it. No remebers, no motivations, lost in the pyramid with all drakeforce chasing it. Sorry for my english.

[BroomGuys]

I'm not even sure where the evidence that Girard, a known multiclass character could CAST epic magic is, note that it's perfectly possible to be a pure caster and epic level and not have epic magic, and that Girard had levels in Ranger.

Really, what did the spell do that can't be explained by a non-epic phantasm?

Well, Roy said that his father, an illusionist, talked about illusion lore all the time, yet Roy had never heard of a phantasm this powerful. This isn't proof, since Roy was relatively disinterested in arcane magic (especially when his father was talking about it) but it does suggest it might be epic magic.

But I do feel pretty sure Girard could cast epic magic. To quote Redcloak: Girard was capable of some of the most powerful illusions ever devised.

[Xelbiuj]

Girald believed in misdirection, not strength or honor (except family) or fulminating magic. Maybe the circle, instead of destroying the target, just erase its memory. All of it. No remebers, no motivations, lost in the pyramid with all drakeforce chasing it. Sorry for my english.

Oh? And where did you learn this?

I'm tired of everyone harking on small, barely mentioned and theorized trait.
All we know is that he didn't like Soon and thought the paladins were authoritarian but we really don't know crap about him beyond that.

There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that Girard is this ultra-paranoid freak that would slit his grandmothers throat if she came home in the wrong socks.

[Tylorious]

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[pearl jam]

There is no obligation for the DM to throw random undead encounters at PCs, and certainly no rule that states every campaign world is equally undead-heavy.

That said, I have never gotten the impression that undead are rare in the OotS universe. Xykon the living sorcerer had never heard of a lich when Redcloak mentioned them, but no one in the Order went, "Wait, a what?" when Elan called Xykon a mad lich.

I never understand when people assert that magic should be more restricted than technology.

But when Xykon is first mentioned in-comic it's as a reference to an enemy that is already shared knowledge within the Order, is it not? Have we ever seen the actual first time any of the members of the Order learn of Xykon for the first time?

Also, I guess we also don't know to exactly what degree Xykon's rise to power and actions over the course of the comic have done to raise the general awareness of undead threats.

To be sure, the general reaction of characters to seeing undead is not disbelief or confusion, but I still think we shouldn't assume that characters are know all the ins and outs of the strengths and weaknesses of various types of undead simply because they know about their existence or even have faced some previously- not that I think you are arguing that position in any way.

[mattie_p]

You're basically postulating a system of spells with computer-level intelligence. That seems a bit too sci-fi for this setting, magical or not.

Girard already utilized such a system. (strips 693-695)

[EmperorSarda]

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[EmperorSarda]

That said, I have never gotten the impression that undead are rare in the OotS universe. Xykon the living sorcerer had never heard of a lich when Redcloak mentioned them, but no one in the Order went, "Wait, a what?" when Elan called Xykon a mad lich.

Though while the Order might have known that a lich is some kind of undead, they certainly didn't know anything about a phylactery.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If you have OOPCs, reread Roy's interview with Vaarsuvius. Undead are common enough for basic, effective tactics to have already been worked out. And in War & XPs, Haley and Belkar were able to rattle off a whole list of undead types while looking for Roy's body.

On a more meta level, there's an entire school of magic pretty much devoted to the undead.

[Tylorious]

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[Jay R]

But when Xykon is first mentioned in-comic it's as a reference to an enemy that is already shared knowledge within the Order, is it not? Have we ever seen the actual first time any of the members of the Order learn of Xykon for the first time?

Yes - in On the Origin of the PCS:

Spoiler

Show

Roy learned about Xykon from his father.

[Shining Wrath]

You know, given that Girard is an illusionist, wouldn't the ultimate illusion be to have the Gate in plain sight on an upper level, disguised to look ordinary, and what you find down here amid all the traps and protection is merely unpleasant death disguised to resemble a Gate?

[Smolder]

You know, given that Girard is an illusionist, wouldn't the ultimate illusion be to have the Gate in plain sight on an upper level, disguised to look ordinary, and what you find down here amid all the traps and protection is merely unpleasant death disguised to resemble a Gate?

I thought the best-disguised gate was the one Shojo was sitting on the whole time.

[Shining Wrath]

I thought the best-disguised gate was the one Shojo was sitting on the whole time.

That was nice ... but the point is, I think that Nale is about to let his greed get the better of him and die horribly with Elan watching through an illusion.

[oppyu]

Oh? And where did you learn this?

I'm tired of everyone harking on small, barely mentioned and theorized trait.
All we know is that he didn't like Soon and thought the paladins were authoritarian but we really don't know crap about him beyond that.

There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that Girard is this ultra-paranoid freak that would slit his grandmothers throat if she came home in the wrong socks.

He believes that the only way to assemble a defence force for the gate is to kidnap infants from one of their parents (the other parent being a Draketooth who had seduced that parent specifically for the purpose of making a gate-guarding baby.) If that's not driven by his paranoia, then he was... just a really bad human being. Like, the lowest of the low. I'm thinking Belkar or Xykon level evil.

[brionl]

He believes that the only way to assemble a defence force for the gate is to kidnap infants from one of their parents (the other parent being a Draketooth who had seduced that parent specifically for the purpose of making a gate-guarding baby.) If that's not driven by his paranoia, then he was... just a really bad human being. Like, the lowest of the low. I'm thinking Belkar or Xykon level evil.

They also took all or most of Penelope's money, not just her baby.

[Tragak]

They also took all or most of Penelope's money, not just her baby.

I'm going to call the baby more important.

[sockmonkey]

You know, given that Girard is an illusionist, wouldn't the ultimate illusion be to have the Gate in plain sight on an upper level, disguised to look ordinary, and what you find down here amid all the traps and protection is merely unpleasant death disguised to resemble a Gate?

Heck, I'd hide something with a mid-level illusion on top of a high-level one so you think you're seeing the real thing when the mid-level one is dispelled.
Also, a red herring with the illusion of a blank wall cast over a section of blank wall.
Trapdoors crafted to physically look like an ordinary floor tile, then covered with the illusion of a floor of spikes.
Heck, take it all the way and cover every square inch of the place with illusions that look like itself except for those specific doors you're trying to hide. Then you have to physically search and/or dispel everything.

[Chad30]

I wonder what the best defense is against tru seeing.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I'm going to call the baby more important.

I don't think it was a statement about relative importance. The Draketooths didn't just steal babies, they stole money too.

[oppyu]

It's like saying that the Draketooth clan not only kills you, but your little dog as well.

By the way, I'm now pretty secure calling the Draketooth clan Evil (or a really, really, REALLY dark brand of Neutral).

[Snails]

He believes that the only way to assemble a defence force for the gate is to kidnap infants from one of their parents (the other parent being a Draketooth who had seduced that parent specifically for the purpose of making a gate-guarding baby.) If that's not driven by his paranoia, then he was... just a really bad human being. Like, the lowest of the low. I'm thinking Belkar or Xykon level evil.

Nonsense. The Draketooths did this because they believed it was necessary for the greater good. Belkar and Xykon inflict pain for laughs.

[Snails]

I wonder what the best defense is against tru seeing.

The Hide skill.

[David Argall]

Here's a possibility to consider:

What if the phantasm in the hallway is only the first part of an epic-level defense (and perhaps the circle in the room is a second part).

And the purpose of the phantasm is not just to delay, but to gather intelligence. Which is why it is a lotus-eater style illusion rather than, say, a worse-nightmare style illusion.

In the OotS's joint phantasm, they re-sealed/re-built a gate. They are now flagged as "not a primary threat" by the defensive magic system.

If Nale dreamed of doing anything nefarious with the gate, he is now flagged as "dangerous - destroy with prejudice" by the defensive magic system.

And the vampires, Dark Elf, and fiends who (possibly) resisted the phantasm? They are now flagged as "unknown - destroy with EXTREME prejudice".

Intelligence is unlikely at this point. Anybody reaching here has been intended to have been vetted by a score of illusionists, either as pro or anti-gate. They already have their intelligence. They would now need a way to dispose of the undesirables. Death traps are possible, because the Draketooths would have assumed anybody who got this far without their approval is an enemy. But why would they want to test further?

[Snails]

I wonder what the best defense is against tru seeing.

It is also plausible to trigger some traps on someone looking at them. Put them behind an illusionary wall. Mirror of Opposition would be the classic. A Medusa?

Also, True Seeing is not always an advantage against shadow magic. Bridges and stairways can be safely traversed by those who fail their Save or choose to believe in them (purposefully fail the Save) -- True Seeing presumably prevent you from believing an illusion.