OOTS #892 - The Discussion Thread

[BroomGuys]

Assuming different results from the same experience is rather dubious. Rather it is easier to assume there was no character development and Elan {and Nale} remains a nitwit.

Assuming the same experience from the same "heart's desire" spell on two totally different people is rather dubious. Elan's experience was of a well deserved and incredibly hard fought happy ending where all the people he didn't want to die didn't have to (except maybe Belkar). Nale just got to be extra long-winded when his evil plan succeeded. Those ain't the same experience at all, so I would expect different results from them.

[Eloi]

It's interesting that everyone mocks that even though it served a similar purpose to Dorukan's self-destruct rune and Azure City's vulnerability to a sword stroke.

I think the lack of more adequate defenses is supposed to represent how a divided Order of the Scribble isn't as good as a united one. If they had cooperated, these gaping holes in their plans would've been covered by their allies. So the moral of the gate protection deficiencies is that teamwork wins the day.

[ti'esar]

From a while back, but worth responding to:

It seems highly improbable that the father of a major character like Haley would just disappear like the dwarf and the shadowdancer. Especially since there are still a lot of mysteries about him, such as Geoff's odd behavior, Ivy, how he ended up being tricked into coming to the continent, what his link is to Tarquin, and on and on and on.

It would be horrible storytelling for him to just disappear forever.

While this is true, what I don't see is why so many people expect those questions to be resolved by Ian showing up at the Windy Canyon. All of the evidence to suggest that he has any reason to go there is contextual or suggestive, nothing more. And I don't think there's any chance the end of this book and fight for the Gate will mean farewell forever to the Western Continent.

Also, I find the fact that "King Nale" is wearing a sash to be hilarious.

[davidbofinger]

The critical question:

• Is it a hexagonal room with an illusion that took a moment to activate that makes it look like an octagonal room?
• Or is it an octagonal room that had an illusion on it that made it look like a hexagonal room until they saw through it?
• Or is it a gigantic pit with an illusion on it to make it look like a room, only the illusion is a bit bodgy?

Malack speaks of "a simple phantasm" but IIUC the purple runes are something custom and more powerful. Does that mean Malack's underestimating Draketooth magic? We know Nale has some method of defeating vampires because he killed Malack's progeny when Nale was low level. Is it even remotely possible he could win against an overconfident Malack and Durkula? What D&D gadgets are there that make vampire-slaying easy?

[Poppy Appletree]

I'm not sure if it's been pointed out already, but this plan was foreshadowed more than 300 strips ago.

[Lombard]

My stones are even now growing nigh unto cerulean with anticipation of the tale's next installment.

[zimmerwald1915]

Malack speaks of "a simple phantasm" but IIUC the purple runes are something custom and more powerful.

A phantasm is just a type of illusion spell, and Roy identified the runes as creating a phantasm only a few strips ago.

[RedneckTex95]

I really can't wait to see what goes down! Pretty good strip Mr. Giant!

I really hope Belkar will be able to fight! When the LG enter that door, they'll need him! Also, hopefully V will show up to at least even up the odds a tiny bit!

[sebmojo]

Prediction of the next dozen panels or so (not to sound arrogant, but I'm pretty confident in this so SPOILER WARNING):

Spoiler

Show

* The rift is in this room, because of the narrative build up.

* Linear Guild will investigate, failing to notice OotS; as soon as they make progress...

* Varsuvius arrives through the same door as the OotS; with their mage back, OotS enters the battle

* Mid-battle Xykon will arrive through the third door of the "hexagon", and a 3-way battle commences

* Roy almost kills Xykon with his new feat, but fails at the last minute due to Nale's backstab.

* Tarquin arrives through the fourth door of the Octagon - the suggestion of a hexagon was an intentional misleading - battle starts to go bad on all sides, but it looks like one of the bad guys will be ultimately victorious...

* In a moment of desperation, Belkar breaks the rune, dying in the process.

* Xykon's about to have his revenge on Roy, when the Sapphire Guard shows up to save OotS, teleporting them away...

* Final panel of this comic shows Belkar in the afterlife, finding some catharsis along with his punishment.

So I guess I've finally joined the forum; hi, guys!

This is actually pretty solid, though it will almost certainly not happen that way. For instance: no mention of the fiends, there's quite possibly no self-destruct rune (only one of the gates has had one so far), the SG can't teleport AFAIK (unless they enlist the help of the elves, I suppose) and V would probably be caught by the phantasm.

We shall see.

[SaintRidley]

A phantasm is just a type of illusion spell, and Roy identified the runes as creating a phantasm only a few strips ago.

davidbofinger is taking issue with the word simple, not the word phantasm.

[Reddish Mage]

davidbofinger is taking issue with the word simple, not the word phantasm.

I think Malack is simply venting his anger at Nale. It's clearly more then a simple phantasm.

[Thrillhouse]

How does undead immunity to illusions work? Will they just not see Elan's illusionary wall? Or do they have to touch it or something?

[Bovine Colonel]

How does undead immunity to illusions work? Will they just not see Elan's illusionary wall? Or do they have to touch it or something?

They're immune to mind-affecting effects, not illusions. The one in the corridor happens to be both.

[Thrillhouse]

They're immune to mind-affecting effects, not illusions. The one in the corridor happens to be both.

Oh okay. Now, of course, Durkon did cast True Seeing before...

[WindStruck]

Hmm, yes.... this room could potentially have a number of doors, from which V and Team evil could all enter, as they fight for control of the gate. I bet the name of one of the comics will be something horribly punny and ironic... like... "Battle Roy-all" or something, even though Roy and his team probably do nothing but watch the other rip each other to shreds.

[pearl jam]

May I introduce you to Lirian, the epic level druid who didn't know you couldn't poison or disease the undead?

Let's go a step further, and realize that Lirian basically had no plan for spell-casting undead of any stripe, maybe intelligent undead period. Really, the OOTScribble keep coming up short in the brains department.

What if, as seems not impossible, undead enemies are simply a fairly rare thing to encounter and the Order of the Squiggle, high level characters though they were, simply had little or no contact with them prior to Xykon's emergence?

Rules-based jokes aside, characters in this world aren't issued a Player's Handbook & Monster Manual upon achieving their first Class Level that they can study & memorize at their discretion. The various weaknesses, immunities and special abilities that are so well known to players sitting at the table should not be automatic knowledge to characters who haven't gained that knowledge through experience. An example of this is the Order failing to realize Disintegrate is a higher level spell for Redcloak than it is for V and underestimating the threat he presents because of this lack of knowledge.

Yes, Team Evil are well-suited to exploiting the weaknesses of the protections we've seen on the gates thus far, but that may due more to the rarity of threats of this nature than it is to some glaring mistake on the part of the Order of the Scribble.

[jere7my]

I have a sneaking suspicion that this smaller structure is the location referred to in strip #845, "Girard's buttcheeks", between which Girard's Rift can be found.

The joke, "Where does Napoleon keep his armies? In his sleevies!" does not suggest or imply that Napoleon has a secret location called "Napoleon's Sleevies" where his armies are quartered.

"Between his buttcheeks" is almost certainly the same kind of punchline.

[Sylthia]

This story arc is starting to feel like some of the dungeon crawls I've been in. It's hard to explain, but it does.

[mattie_p]

I'm not sure if it's been pointed out already, but this plan was foreshadowed more than 300 strips ago.

I don't think so. I like where you are going with this.

[SaintRidley]

What if, as seems not impossible, undead enemies are simply a fairly rare thing to encounter and the Order of the Squiggle, high level characters though they were, simply had little or no contact with them prior to Xykon's emergence?

Rules-based jokes aside, characters in this world aren't issued a Player's Handbook & Monster Manual upon achieving their first Class Level that they can study & memorize at their discretion. The various weaknesses, immunities and special abilities that are so well known to players sitting at the table should not be automatic knowledge to characters who haven't gained that knowledge through experience. An example of this is the Order failing to realize Disintegrate is a higher level spell for Redcloak than it is for V and underestimating the threat he presents because of this lack of knowledge.

Yes, Team Evil are well-suited to exploiting the weaknesses of the protections we've seen on the gates thus far, but that may due more to the rarity of threats of this nature than it is to some glaring mistake on the part of the Order of the Scribble.

Absolutely. Hence my post. It's most definitely not absurd for Girard to not have known, given Lirian didn't know basic facts about the undead (such as the fact that while you can poison the living, it doesn't do anything to the dead).

[B. Dandelion]

Look at it this way: Elan's realization led to character growth. Nale's realization was used as a cheap punchline. That doesn't negate Elan's growth, it merely highlights how much of a bufoon Nale is. (Not mention how much he likes to hear himself talk.)

'Preciate the effort, but no...

The problem's not that Nale negates Elan's internal character growth but that he severely diminishes the significance of what Elan's character growth managed to accomplish externally. He saved his team's butt and nonmagically broke through an Epic-level spell, which was pretty awesome! I love Elan and I loved this moment for him where he got to do something so important and unique. It now looks less awesome because apparently even Nale can do it as part of a joke, and if something can be achieved by a useless character as a joke it looks much less impressive that somebody else managed it by other means.

So I would actually prefer to think Nale is emulating Elan and might have had a legitimate breakthrough -- at least then breaking through nonmagically would still be sort of special, with Elan and Nale both doing it because they are "evil opposites" and had epiphanies at the same time. I'm not sure how likely that is, but it could be interesting.

[SaintRidley]

Z tugging on Nale and trying from the outside to get Nale going again might have played some small part, though. Elan did everything on his own from the inside, without anyone outside to try to help him out. Nale? Might have gotten out on his own, but he certainly had someone on the outside trying to help too.

[pearl jam]

Absolutely. Hence my post. It's most definitely not absurd for Girard to not have known, given Lirian didn't know basic facts about the undead (such as the fact that while you can poison the living, it doesn't do anything to the dead).

Ooops! So we agree. I guess I read your post in the wrong tone.

Still, there have been many posts on this subject since the introduction of the illusion, and probably before that too, but many people seem to be forgetting that, although characters in this comic clearly have a fair amount of rules meta-knowledge and make reference to it regularly, we shouldn't assume that they have all possible rules meta-knowlege memorized at all times.

[EmperorSarda]

So I would actually prefer to think Nale is emulating Elan and might have had a legitimate breakthrough -- at least then breaking through nonmagically would still be sort of special, with Elan and Nale both doing it because they are "evil opposites" and had epiphanies at the same time. I'm not sure how likely that is, but it could be interesting.

Why do they have to be the same though? If we are going with opposites, Elan breaking through with actual character development would be opposite of Nale breaking out for a cheap joke.

Because character development or not, it appears that realization that your perfect world is not real, but an illusion, is what breaks the spell.

Z tugging on Nale and trying from the outside to get Nale going again might have played some small part, though. Elan did everything on his own from the inside, without anyone outside to try to help him out. Nale? Might have gotten out on his own, but he certainly had someone on the outside trying to help too.

Maybe. But then that only increases the danger for Clan DrakeTooth when attacking any who get caught.

[B. Dandelion]

Why do they have to be the same though? If we are going with opposites, Elan breaking through with actual character development would be opposite of Nale breaking out for a cheap joke.

Because character development or not, it appears that realization that your perfect world is not real, but an illusion, is what breaks the spell.

They don't have to be the same. I'd prefer them to be the same, because I think that if you can break an Epic-level spell by being a cheap joke, it looks less impressive that you can break the same Epic-level spell through serious character development.

I like Elan to be impressive. I thought it was cool he beat the spell the way he did.

[ChristianSt]

With the Linear Guild not be really affected buy the runes, I think that is not set up by Girard (or at least it is not Epic). Because compared with other Epic magic we have seen, this seems (at least to me) not-so-epic. It seems that even Z resisted it completely and Nale couldn't have been long in there. Even if there would have been Girard's pals to "finish them off" nearby, it would have been a normal fight and no coup-de-gracing (or something like that).

[Amphiox]

Here's a possibility to consider:

What if the phantasm in the hallway is only the first part of an epic-level defense (and perhaps the circle in the room is a second part).

And the purpose of the phantasm is not just to delay, but to gather intelligence. Which is why it is a lotus-eater style illusion rather than, say, a worse-nightmare style illusion.

In the OotS's joint phantasm, they re-sealed/re-built a gate. They are now flagged as "not a primary threat" by the defensive magic system.

If Nale dreamed of doing anything nefarious with the gate, he is now flagged as "dangerous - destroy with prejudice" by the defensive magic system.

And the vampires, Dark Elf, and fiends who (possibly) resisted the phantasm? They are now flagged as "unknown - destroy with EXTREME prejudice".

[Tylorious]

Here's a possibility to consider:

What if the phantasm in the hallway is only the first part of an epic-level defense (and perhaps the circle in the room is a second part).

And the purpose of the phantasm is not just to delay, but to gather intelligence. Which is why it is a lotus-eater style illusion rather than, say, a worse-nightmare style illusion.

In the OotS's joint phantasm, they re-sealed/re-built a gate. They are now flagged as "not a primary threat" by the defensive magic system.

If Nale dreamed of doing anything nefarious with the gate, he is now flagged as "dangerous - destroy with prejudice" by the defensive magic system.

And the vampires, Dark Elf, and fiends who (possibly) resisted the phantasm? They are now flagged as "unknown - destroy with EXTREME prejudice".

This is my favorite so far.

[TRH]

Here's a possibility to consider:

What if the phantasm in the hallway is only the first part of an epic-level defense (and perhaps the circle in the room is a second part).

And the purpose of the phantasm is not just to delay, but to gather intelligence. Which is why it is a lotus-eater style illusion rather than, say, a worse-nightmare style illusion.

In the OotS's joint phantasm, they re-sealed/re-built a gate. They are now flagged as "not a primary threat" by the defensive magic system.

If Nale dreamed of doing anything nefarious with the gate, he is now flagged as "dangerous - destroy with prejudice" by the defensive magic system.

And the vampires, Dark Elf, and fiends who (possibly) resisted the phantasm? They are now flagged as "unknown - destroy with EXTREME prejudice".

You're basically postulating a system of spells with computer-level intelligence. That seems a bit too sci-fi for this setting, magical or not.

[Bulldog Psion]

Here's a possibility to consider:

What if the phantasm in the hallway is only the first part of an epic-level defense (and perhaps the circle in the room is a second part).

And the purpose of the phantasm is not just to delay, but to gather intelligence. Which is why it is a lotus-eater style illusion rather than, say, a worse-nightmare style illusion.

In the OotS's joint phantasm, they re-sealed/re-built a gate. They are now flagged as "not a primary threat" by the defensive magic system.

If Nale dreamed of doing anything nefarious with the gate, he is now flagged as "dangerous - destroy with prejudice" by the defensive magic system.

And the vampires, Dark Elf, and fiends who (possibly) resisted the phantasm? They are now flagged as "unknown - destroy with EXTREME prejudice".

That would be a logical thing to do with epic magic, which is why it's highly unlikely that any Order of the Scribble member would have set it up.