Advice needed - 3.5 encounters

[Cogidubnus]

I just ran the first session of a new 3.5 campaign. Started at level 7, with a fighter2/barbarian 5, a ranger2/rogue 5, a fighter 7 and a cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 1. None of the encounters were horrifically hard, but the lowest was CR 6. Most were 7-9. Yet they tore through them. One encounter, they killed a bearded devil outright in the surprise round, and lowered the mephits to1 HP each. The only thing that challenged them was the Vampire Drow Ranger, who spent most of his time leeching CON from the barbarian. Incidentally, the Mystic Theurge isn't the reason for this. His contribtion consisted mostly of using burning hands on low HP enemies and healing. Any advice?

[The Rabbler]

how do you want it to be more challenging? do you want them to have a harder time killing the creatures? do you want the creatures to have an easier time killing your players? both?

if the former, throw in stuff with lots of hp and hot very high damage. advanced trolls are nice for this.

if the creatures are lacking in damage, you might want to try and use some meaner monsters. I find hydras to be a very simple way of doing this. throw on a few templates and you've got yourself a real challenge.

if both, make a well-built wizard NPC and have him toy with them while his summons or mooks finish the players off.

[AmberVael]

Killed a Bearded Devil in one round, you say?
It's a CR 5 enemy. It's only got 45 hp, and these guys are level 7. I'd be ashamed of a group that couldn't do that. Frankly, the Fighter/Barbarian, or the Fighter, properly built, could have done that on its own.

Just from hearing the little you've said, my guess is that you're simply not making the encounters challenging enough, and underestimating the capabilities of a level 7 party. A level 7 party will easily defeat CR 7 encounters, and encounters of lower CR won't even be worth mentioning. I know why you're making this mistake, because it's a pretty easy one to make... the CR system doesn't quite work how people think it does.

Also, if you're tossing a bunch of lower CR monsters in to try and make challenges for this party (mephits? Bearded devil?) then it'll be even easier. I don't care how many CR 3 creatures you have, it's not going to be a challenge for a level 7 party.

My advice is:
Up the CR of individual creatures. Throw less creatures at them, but ones of higher CR. If you want a big boss, make the big boss CR 10 or 11. That will give them a challenge.


And incidentally, I'm not surprised that the mystic theurge wasn't a problem. They're notoriously weak.

[DarkEternal]

Toss in a few basilisks. It's CR 4 I think and yet, many evil laughs of the DM will be heard.

[Yora]

I just ran the first session of a new 3.5 campaign. Started at level 7, with a fighter2/barbarian 5, a ranger2/rogue 5, a fighter 7 and a cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 1. None of the encounters were horrifically hard, but the lowest was CR 6. Most were 7-9. Yet they tore through them. One encounter, they killed a bearded devil outright in the surprise round, and lowered the mephits to1 HP each. The only thing that challenged them was the Vampire Drow Ranger, who spent most of his time leeching CON from the barbarian. Incidentally, the Mystic Theurge isn't the reason for this. His contribtion consisted mostly of using burning hands on low HP enemies and healing. Any advice?

If you want fights to be harder, use tougher monsters. Even if the EL rises to 8-10 or higher, as long as the fight is appropriately challenging, it's fine.
But you might want to reduce the amount of XP the party gets, or they will need a lot less than 13 encounters to get a new level.

[Cogidubnus]

Thanks. I guessed the problem was something to do with the CR system. And to be more precise, the Bearded Devil went down to one hit from the barbarian. Part of the reason for lower CR monsters is that the encounter systme as explained means that it's quite hard to get an encounter with more than one monster. I'll try upping the CR but leaving XP the same. That ought to make things tougher. I do still wonder though. I mean yeah, lower level monsters will never be as much of a challenge, but that fact that it's this easy for them is a little worrying. I've mostly DMed 4e in the past, and that allows for slightly larger encounters while keeping a balance. I've got a high level druid coming up, who I'm hoping will challenge them, if druids really are so broken.

[AmberVael]

Well, you're playing with a horrifically unoptimized party from what I can see (fighter? Fighter/barbarian? Mystic Theurge?), so all I can say is that if something is wrong, it's not on the end of your party. More likely, it has to do with the creatures you're tossing at them, or the strategy these creatures use.

Try throwing Animals at them- both regular and Dire. That might help. Your group is obviously focused straight combat (except for the theurge, but he's focused on fail at this low level), so making something that challenges them in another way would be kind of cruel... but animals are like, pure HP and heavy attacks, and lower CR because of their single minded focus, so it might work well.

[Cogidubnus]

Ok. The Theurge, while weak, does do the job he needs to, which is buffing. I'll try animals. Anything with high HP will help. High AC seems to make very little difference, as most of them have between +10 and +15 to attack rolls. Similarly, it's hard to even scratch them. The fighter has AC 25, the barbarian's forfeited Fast Movement for full plate and has AC 21.

[Oslecamo]

Check out myguide for DMs to building challenging ecounters. Not finished but plenty of advice.

[BtanH]

Ok. The Theurge, while weak, does do the job he needs to, which is buffing. I'll try animals. Anything with high HP will help. High AC seems to make very little difference, as most of them have between +10 and +15 to attack rolls. Similarly, it's hard to even scratch them. The fighter has AC 25, the barbarian's forfeited Fast Movement for full plate and has AC 21.

Meh, 25 AC shouldn't be that bad, just throw in some monsters with class levels or spell like abilities (charm person anyone?). Animal are a good idea. So are giants (high HP low AC)

[Cogidubnus]

Got a giant planned. Was thinking I need abilities, particularly those that target will, for more challenging encounters.

[Nidogg]

Throw in encounters to serously muck things up. Mellee ers stealing the limelight? Toss incorperal enemys in there. Casters the problem? Put Int/Wiz/ Cha (Casters primary) drain or spell eaters (from dragon magic). Or. Have them fight THEMSELVES Alter race, specis, gender and maybey re-arange a few things so It doesnt become imediatly obvious that your in a Famed Mimic Gogo situation.

[BtanH]

1 Succubus should be enough for a looooong time.
Kinding... just trow them a 1st level wizard riding a giant. Should work out ok.

[TheCountAlucard]

Don't just go animals. Go half-dragon animals.

What's scarier than a bear? A super-bear that flies and is immune to fire.

[Cogidubnus]

Think I've mentioned this before, but the one encounter that did work was the vampire. Between CON drain and negative levels, he nearly killed the barbarian. And they've got to fight him again (he fled to his coffin while they rested), so I might up his HD a bit to make the difference. His attack bonus is enough to land hits too.

[Gnomo]

Pick up a low level enemy and advance it.

================================================== ===============

Lets say the classic serpentine Grick, this is how it would look like advanced a little bit:

Size/Type: Large Aberration
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 5
Hit Dice: 6d8 + 18 (49 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (+1 Dex, +6 natural, -1 size), touch 10, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+14
Attack: Tentacle +9 melee (1d8+6)
Full Attack: 4 tentacles +9 melee (1d8+6); bite +7 melee (1d4+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/magic, darkvision 60 ft., scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +7
Skills: Climb +10, Hide 3, Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Track, Multiattack, Improved natural attack (tentacle)
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary or cluster (2-4)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancementt: 3-4 HD (Medium); 5-6 HD (Large)

Now with two of this monsters you have a CR 7 encounter.

================================================== ===============

If you want to give your party a harder time try the Formian Champion:

Size/Type: Large Outsider (Lawful Extraplanar)
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10
Hit Dice: 12d8 + 60 (122 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+2 Dex, +7 natural, -1 size), touch 11, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+24
Attack: Sting +19 (2d6+8 plus poison)
Full Attack: Sting +19 (2d6+8 plus poison) and 2 claws +17 (1d8+4) and bite +17 (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Poison (Injury, Fortitude DC 23, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Str. The save DC is Constitution-based)
Special Qualities: Hive mind, immunity to poison, petrification, and cold, resistance to electricity 10, fire 10, and sonic 10, spell resistance 18
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +10, Will +9
Skills: Climb +22, Hide +17, Jump +26, Listen +16, Move Silently +17, (+10 following tracks), Tumble +14, Spot +6
Feats: Dodge, Multiattack, Skill focus (poison), Combat Reflexes, Blind Fight.
Challenge Rating: 8
Alignment: Usually lawful neutral

Keep poisoning the players to take their Strength score down, this will scare them. Remember that this monster has a 10 ft. reach and Combat Reflexes, that's enough poisoning to everyone.

================================================== ===============

Now, if you want to add some madness into the mix, nothing say crazy like an incorporeal flying suicidal undead, the Allip.

Size/Type: Medium Undead
Abilities: Str -, Dex 12, Con -, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 20
Hit Dice: 12d12 (62)
Initiative: +6
Speed: Fly 30 ft. (perfect) (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+1 Dex, +5 deflection), touch 16, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/-
Attack: Incorporeal touch +7 melee (1d4 Wisdom drain)
Full Attack: Incorporeal touch +7 melee (1d4 Wisdom drain)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Babble (DC 23 Will save), Madness, Wisdom drain
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., incorporeal traits, +2 turn resistance, undead traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +8, Will +8
Skills: Hide +16, Intimidate +7, Listen +15, Search +12, Spot +15, Survival +0 (+2 following tracks)
Feats: Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Skill focus (babble), Fly-by attack,
Challenge Rating: 5
Alignment: Always neutral evil

Just use fly-by attack to drain wisdom and babble the party away. Two Allips make a CR 7 encounter, you can say that it´s a couple that killed themselves because their families didn´t let them be together, call them Ramon and Jeanette.

[AmberVael]

Don't just go animals. Go half-dragon animals.

What's scarier than a bear? A super-bear that flies and is immune to fire.

DM: You see a large creature, brown furred and shambling towards you on four legs. Its mighty paws show frightening claws, and-

Player 1: We're fighting a bear?

Player 2: Laaaaame.

DM: Uh... and it has scales! And frickin' huge wings! It leaps into the sky and breathes fire at you!

[AslanCross]

Thanks. I guessed the problem was something to do with the CR system. And to be more precise, the Bearded Devil went down to one hit from the barbarian. Part of the reason for lower CR monsters is that the encounter systme as explained means that it's quite hard to get an encounter with more than one monster. I'll try upping the CR but leaving XP the same. That ought to make things tougher. I do still wonder though. I mean yeah, lower level monsters will never be as much of a challenge, but that fact that it's this easy for them is a little worrying. I've mostly DMed 4e in the past, and that allows for slightly larger encounters while keeping a balance. I've got a high level druid coming up, who I'm hoping will challenge them, if druids really are so broken.

Use an encounter calculator.

This has allowed me to build fairly complex groups of encounters with multiple grunts and one or two heavy bruisers, sometimes with a caster in the mix.

Also, use terrain. Don't use boring old flat cubic rooms where everyone is in direct line of sight. Have pillars for obstructing line of sight/line of effect, elevated platforms out of the reach of melee bruisers, monsters hanging from chains above the PCs, difficult terrain, and even hazards like lava chasms where the PCs can fall to their death.

Interactive environments, such as movable furniture, levers that cause jets of fire to shoot out of walls, etc. can prove to be memorable and useful.

[Magic Myrmidon]

Use an encounter calculator.

^ That.

This one gives CR and average gold. It's not bad. A friend showed it to me.

http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d...calculator.htm

[Gnaeus]

Be REALLY careful with the up the CR and throw animals at them advice.

You have a low optimization party. You do probably need to raise the CR level a little bit, but the danger is that you can easily wind up with creatures that can 1-shot your guys, which is bad, or that have such high AC that they can't be hit, which is worse if your party is 3 mundane attackers and a healer/buffer.

A CR 10 encounter for a 7th level party should be tough, but doable, for example. A CR 10 encounter with animals is like 2 dire tigers. 2 Dire Tigers would Pounce/Grapple the fighter and barbarian in round 1 (maybe kill one of them if they roll a crit), and almost certainly kill them both in round 2, then munch on the squishies.

Not saying that the advice you are getting is wrong, just be careful with it.

[Cogidubnus]

I keep quite a close eye on damage outputs. And to be fair, its seems a CR10 encounter made of lower-CR creatures ought to be perfectly feasible. I mean, they finished off a CR9 of 3 monsters with 4 attacks. The straight fighter didn't even get a round. What I need are monsters with high HP and either SLAs or high bonuses to the attack rolls. Which is why the vampire worked, I think. He didn't need to hit their armour, just grapple and pin to do CON damage, and his bonuses to attack rolls were enough to get through their AC anyway. As for the bloodsucking, it gained him temp HP which allowed him to take hits on the chin. Next time, I'll have him cast darkness and then pounce the rogue. Ought to cause some panic.

[AslanCross]

I keep quite a close eye on damage outputs. And to be fair, its seems a CR10 encounter made of lower-CR creatures ought to be perfectly feasible. I mean, they finished off a CR9 of 3 monsters with 4 attacks. The straight fighter didn't even get a round. What I need are monsters with high HP and either SLAs or high bonuses to the attack rolls. Which is why the vampire worked, I think. He didn't need to hit their armour, just grapple and pin to do CON damage, and his bonuses to attack rolls were enough to get through their AC anyway. As for the bloodsucking, it gained him temp HP which allowed him to take hits on the chin. Next time, I'll have him cast darkness and then pounce the rogue. Ought to cause some panic.

How much do your PCs deal? What were the monsters in that CR 9 encounter?

[Lord Loss]

I had the same problem. I tried throwing more monsters at the PCs but itdidn,t quite cut it. The solution is this formula which works some of the time.

Challenging Fight (I have very, very tactically smart/ intuitive Players, so this may be too hard for your game, dun work at lower levels)

Total CR: (# of Players x PARTY LEVEL) +2. No individual monster may be equal or more powerful than 2x Party level.

So basically an appropriate fight for 4 lvl 5s is 4 CR 4s and 1 CR 6.

[Superglucose]

When designing an encounter use real tactics. Archers should be hiding on top of a cliff or "Shot on the Run" ing to and from cover. Clerics should be buffed up and ready to go. Heck, even animals have the ability to use tactics (just look how wolves and tigers hunt).

One of the most successful encounters I ever ran was a boss fight of a CR 5 Troglodyte cleric and four CR 3 Troglodyte rangers (archery focused) against a party of 6 level 5 characters. Basically here's how it went:

The four archers ducked out of cover based on readied actions triggered by the cleric ("He's casting!" *jump out* *shoot casters*) and otherwise the Cleric just went toe-to-toe with the biggest of the bads he could find... using your typical cleric buffs to be pretty damn tough and strong. When the first Wind Wall came out, the troglodyte archers used the pillars to provide cover and move around the wind wall, and by the end there were three wind walls circling the center where the main meat had engaged the Cleric. Two of the four Trog archers were trapped in a web off to one side while another was flat out dead (caught a lightning bolt to the face), and the third was unable to get a shot and unwilling to close and enter the wind wall to get his shots off.

Eventually through action economy the Cleric fell... 10 rounds into combat.

Truth be told the guys in the party weren't in any real danger of dying (the damage output just wasn't that high) but they loved having to find solutions for the unusual tactic of being sniped from cover and enemies who were actually using their mobility to their advantage. Great fun was had all around.

[Cogidubnus]

The cr 9 encounter wasn't really tough, monsters, just a bearded devil and two mephits, but as I said above, the devil went down to one punch. I've been toying with the mob rules and raising hd or levels. Monsters are looking tougher. Even raising a hobgoblin with ten levels in warrior (a cr 5 monster) is looking better. Giving him some good equipment makes him even more capable. More like the sort of low level monster I need.

[Greenish]

The cr 9 encounter wasn't really tough, monsters, just a bearded devil and two mephits, but as I said above, the devil went down to one punch. I've been toying with the mob rules and raising hd or levels. Monsters are looking tougher. Even raising a hobgoblin with ten levels in warrior (a cr 5 monster) is looking better. Giving him some good equipment makes him even more capable. More like the sort of low level monster I need.

In order to challenge your party, they're going to need great gear. Once the party defeats them (which usually isn't that hard to begin with) they will loot said gear and be that much more difficult to challenge next time around.

[Cogidubnus]

The gear isn't the only boost. Just a small one to complement their raised levels. Mostly magic armour, as the party only missing on natural ones would make it hard to lose.

[Yora]

The cr 9 encounter wasn't really tough, monsters, just a bearded devil and two mephits.

That's not CR 9, that's CR 7.

2 Mephits are 2 CR 3 creatures, which count as one CR 5 creature.
And 2 CR 5 creatures make an EL 7.

Now if you would double all this, you would end up with EL 9. But CR 3 and 5 creatures really won't challenge level 7 characters.
Better try one CR 7 creature and see what happens then!

Mephits attack with a luaghable +4, but a single CR 9 frost giant attacks with +18 and deals about 24 damage with every hit. A mephits 2 points of damage are nothing compared to that.

[Cogidubnus]

Ok. miscalculations aside, this is what i've discovered. One high cr monster is considerably more of a threat.

[Amphetryon]

4 Half-Dragon Quasits are within this party's CR, and between invisibility, alternate form, and 6d8 breath weapons, should confound and challenge the group without being instantly fatal.