[3.5] Monks, Fighters, Battle Sorcerers, etc... Observations from Lowbies to Low Epic

[Crow]

Introduction

So we just wrapped up our campaign, which took the players from level 1 to 25-26. I thought I would share some of our experiences regarding the buildup through levels 1-20, and then from 21 onward, as well as some observations that I've made regarding the classes involved, which should be at least somewhat interesting. I am not composing this to back up or oppose any "3.5 is broken", "Fighters/Monks Suxorz", or "Epic Magic Should Be Banned" threads and arguments. This is only an observation of actual play across a broad spectrum as levels. Take away what you will from it, but understand, I am not trying to hammer home a point with this. It is just a little narrative to describe our group's 3.5 experience.

The World

I will start with a little background on the campaign world in general, as the 1-20 and beyond experience *will* differ depending on where it is run, and how it is run. We run in a custom campaign world. Some folks who have been around this forum for a while have surely seen my goliath hand-drawn map which usually pops up in the map-making threads which pop up every once in a while. So this is certainly not Forgotten Realms or Eberron. It is a land of kingdoms. The rare independant city-state still exists, but by and large, the politics of the realms revolve around kings, barons, courtiers, the church(es), and wizards...which hold a special sway all their own, as you will see. To get a better idea of what this means for our campaign, I'll explain it in metagame terms.

The world isn't "low-magic" as it is generally known around here, but it also isn't "Ye Olde Magic Shoppe". Higher-level wizards and clerics do exist, but are more rare than is pre-supposed in the basic material. Most temples will have a cleric high-enough level to cast a raise dead spell. Most decent-sized towns and cities will have a magical trinket shop where you can find just that, trinket-level magical items, and more utilitarian items like handy haversacks and such. You can probably find a wizard skilled enough to give your gear some minor enhancements, or comission a low-level specialty item. The big stuff however, is harder to come by. The higher level wizards and clerics of the world are powers in their own right, and band with others of similar stature to exert control over the world's people and realms through their magical prowess. It is by no means a monopoly though, and different churches and arcane orders are constantly struggling for control over this or that realm or resource. To gain access to the "good stuff", when it comes to magic, you either have to make or find it yourself, or get in with one of these magical powers, who for a service or two, can provide what you need, or point you towards someone who can commission what you're looking for.

This change in magic item availability is the primary difference between the world our players find themselves in, and the majority of published material.

The Characters

I will now introduce the main characters in our little adventures. Let's try to keep the laughing to a minimum as I roll down the list;

Fredrick Hastlo, Human, Battlemaster and Brewmaster Extraordinaire - Fredrick, like all of our characters, was built using 4d6 drop lowest for stats, and didn't exactly benefit from the experience. His STR is only modest (14) by the standards of the playground, but good enough to do his job, hitting things. Fredrick ends up taking most of his levels in Fighter...plain old Fighter. On top of this, his primary weapon is the Fullblade (Arms and Equipment Guide). Throughout his career, Fredrick draws primary from core, and Player's Handbook 2 when it comes to advancement. From humble beginnings, the son of a warrior, Fredrick has a passion for alcohol, and dreams of someday brewing the perfect ale.

Bishop Silvershield, Human, Infamous Pirate and Sometime Merchant Captain - Bishop's dice smiled upon him, and he walked away with good stats across the board. Over the course of his career, Bishop takes levels primarily in Rogue, with dips in Fighter, and even the Expert class (not the NPC class, but the generic class from Unearthed Arcana). Bishop focuses on close-up archery, and then getting in close for sneak attacks after he can be assured of a flank. Bishop draws from any book which (he feels) is advantageous to him at the time as he advances in level. Bishop is a member of a powerful merchant family with underworld connections. However, Bishop himself is a distant relation, and begins as a relatively unimportant family member.

Lila Light-Foot, Elf, The Whisper in the Dark - Lila also got the benefit of nice dice rolls, and sports a very high DEX, but did not invest highly in STR. Lila levels all the way to 20 as a Ninja, eventually taking Elf Paragon, and some Rogue. Lila is specced for two-weapon fighting, and draws mostly from the Complete Series when levelling up, with a couple exceptions. Lila is a traveller who is out to experience the world of the "lesser" races

Rick Whitegate, Human, Monestary Diplomat and High-born Jerk - Rick's dice did not smile in the traditional sense. While he did roll an 18, the rest of his rolls were not all that impressive, resulting in an exceptional strength score, and only just enough modifiers to get a slight bonuses to DEX and WIS. Rick levels up entirely in Monk, and uses primarily core, his player being too lazy to really explore other options. Rick dumps the majority of his skills points into "social" skills. Rick's family was once very influential, but has fallen into hard times, which Rick plans to rectify.

Elsa Sword-and-Moon, Human, Blademaiden and Spell-Weaver - Elsa's rolls were adequate for what she wanted to be, which was a Battle Sorcerer. Her STR is good enough, and her CHA is high, though her other rolls were very lackluster. Elsa is limited entirely to the D20SRD and spends her entire career in the Battle Sorcerer class. Elsa focuses on "batman"-type spells, and enters combat only to mop up, or when absolutely necessary, step in for a fallen comrade.

The Early Adventures; Levels 1 Through 5

The early adventures which the party experienced were what most have come to expect of low-level D&D; Combat is dangerous due to low hit point totals, everyone is useful due to low enemy hit point totals and saves, and the characters are finding their roles and learning to work together. The party routinely fights over 4 encounters per day of varying difficulty (some pushovers, some impossible, but days with as few as one encounter do happen. Encounters with even low-level undead routinely diminish some characters' effectiveness.

To start, we are finding that even with a relatively low STR for a fighter, Fredrick's fullblade does enough damage to keep him relevant, and the use of flanks and charging is allowing him to bring his power attack to bear, which with a two-handed weapon, is quite effective. However, Fredrick's low armor class and use of the charge action, along with fighting enemies intelligent enough to flank him, means he is getting hit a lot. Without any in-party cleric, Fredrick's life has been saved many times through post-combat heal checks or healing items. Fredrick has a few very close calls, and begins to develop a reputation as a glass cannon.

Bishop's effectiveness is about what you would expect. At range with his bow, he does enough damage to remain useful, but not anywhere near what Fredrick can dish out. When given the opportunity for a sneak attack, he is fairly effective. His skills are able to handle most traps and locks the party comes across with ease, which is helpful, and has some skills usefull in social encounters. All in all, Bishop has a decent niche, and is certainly not useless. His STR is even high enough to give him a little edge when fighting sneak/crit immune enemies, which happes often due to the party's many encounters with undead through these levels.

Lila's effectiveness however, suffers. With only a limited number of times which she is able to use the Ninja's Ki Power ability, Lila sometimes has difficulty utilizing her sudden strike ability. Furthermore, with a low STR, enemies immune to sneak/crit pose a particular challenge. However, when she is able to bring the ability into play, her damage is quite respectable, but not consistent enough to value her more highly than Fredrick for instance. Her armor class is quite good though, and her ability to *remain alive* gives the others the opportunity to be revived post-battle a number of times.

Rick at these levels finds that the Monk class has little to offer him, though by virtue of his maxed out STR score, he is able to contribute with some consistency with flurry of blows. However, his armor class is very low, and with his low hit die, Rick is often very low on hit points. Once this happens, a common tactic is to help a nearby ally dispatch whatever enemy is near to him, and then pull out (Rick does not have any ranks in Tumble). Rick's good saving throws do allow him a good chance to shrug off magical effects more consistently than the others. Ricks investment in social skills does little to offset his lack of investment in CHA. Most talking falls to Bishop.

Elsa at this time is not very versatile at all. Battle Sorcerer limits her spells known, and she gets the most milage from Color Spray, and then Glitterdust. With the use of True Strike, she is able to land some good two-handed power attacks. Her Color Spray and Glitterdust are able to make things easier for the rest of the party, but by no means are battle-enders. Some blinded enemies remain dangerous (though not as much so), and some enemies do make their saves, though by virtue of high CHA, most don't. Elsa settles in as controller, and occasional damage dealer.

So far, if I were to judge total party effectiveness, to include out-of-combat utility, it would go something like this;

1. Elsa, Battle Sorcerer (Divides and neutralizes enemies to make the others' job easier)
2. Bishop, Rogue (Extremely diminished effectiveness against some enemies, but has much out-out combat utility)
3. Fredrick, Fighter (He provides the majority of the party's hit point damage)
4. Lila, Ninja (Extremely limited by Ki Power uses per day, and similar diminished effectiveness vs certain enemies)
5. Rick, Monk (He is just too fragile to consistently contribute in melee, and negative CHA mod nukes social skills)

Making a Name For Ourselves; Levels 6 Through 10

At this point, the characters are becoming known by a few of the more important powers, but are still largely unknown. They ally themselves with a Dwarven King, who is looking for assistance battling incursions from the underdark. Encounters begin to grow more difficult as enemies are capable of throwing more dangerous magic and delivering more powerful blows. All of the characters are capable of taking a bit more punishment, and feat combinations are just beginning to come into their own. The Battle-Sorcerer learns Haste, which changes the dynamic of almost every encounter by itself.

Again we start with Fredrick. Fredrick has been working on his armor class, and can reliably shrug off a couple attacks unless he gets swarmed or charges and gets flanked. He is getting his first iteratives, and along with Haste, is able to get into fighting range fast, and get an extra attack on full-attacks. His damage is still good enough that bypassing him and risking an attack of opportunity must be considered carefully. Still, as the party's primary frontliner, Fredrick is often surrounded, and falls to negatives often. Fredrick remains a glass cannon, and the party has to scrape up money for a raise at least twice.

Bishop is now fading into the background. His sneak attack damage can keep him useful in combat, *if* he uses it. But Bishop's player prefers to remain far from the enemy due to the party's lack of healing power. Only when enemies are disabled or near death, does he dive in, probably rightly so, as he has not invested highly in armor class at this point, opting for nicer weapons. Out of combat effectiveness remains, though with higher trap DC's, he misses occasionally, and Bishop's player sometimes does not bother to check for traps when others maybe would. Fredrick suffers the most from these oversights as he is generally the first in the marching order.

Lila is starting to get more uses of her Ki Power ability, and is using sudden strike more often. With iteratives with both weapons, and the benefit of Haste, the damage she can deliver in short bursts is staggering. Her armor class is making it difficult for lower-Cr'd enemies to hit her, and as such, she is taking a frontline role with Fredrick. Her biggest weaknesses are still sneak/crit immune enemies, and she is beginning to run into enemies with blindsight or see invisibility, which is limiting the effectiveness of sudden strike at times. Out of combat, she is able to pick up some of Bishop's slack, which the party needs.

Rick's role is much the same as it was the five levels before these ones, and his STR is still high enough that he can make a respectable show of himself under the right circumstances, though he is now beginning to have difficulty hitting high-AC enemies. He is still quite fragile, and his method of survival is much the same. His investment in social skills is beginning to offset his poor CHA, and he has begun to help Bishop in the role of party face. His grab-bag of abilities proves useful only at times, though he is able to land trip attacks with some regularity, which sometimes helps the party a great deal.

Elsa has gained access to Haste, which has become her battle-opener, and while not so useful to her, is a battle-changer for her allies. She has picked up Heighten Spell so as to keep her limited spells relevant for more levels, and as such is still able to reliably hit enemies with Glitterdust. Her melee ability is still acceptable, and though she has fewer opportunities to implement it, she can still deliver a not insignificant hit. With the later addition of Slow, Elsa continues in her primary controller role.

As the party climbs in levels, the overall picture of character effectiveness remains similar at the top;

1. Elsa, Battle Sorcerer (Control spells are becoming far more important, buffs more significant)
2. Fredrick, Fighter (Still the party's primary damage dealer, and accounts for majority of kills)
3. Lila, Ninja (Highly effective in short intervals, has begun to flex out-of-combat utility)
4. Rick, Monk (Still living off his high STR more than the strength of his class)
5. Bishop, Rogue (Timid tactics and lackluster rogue playstyle is beginning to hurt him)

Becoming the Big Shots; Levels 11 Through 15

Now the party has made a name for themselves. They are deciding who they want to align with in the long term, and have left the Dwarves and decided to side with a Drow cleric who is trying to re-establish her house. The party is becoming central to her plans, and the party has far-reaching plans of their own. Her connections are significant, and through her arcane connections, the party is gaining access to items at their request. Rewards for services rendered are often given in "credit" to aquire items and crafting services. The party now has access to teleportation and scrying, allowing scry-and-die. Enemies have become more potent however, and character death is becoming common.

Fredrick is now dealing a great deal of dmage when he is able to full-attack and power attack, which is more often than you would think. Enemies are now beginning to become strong enough that taking the attack of opportunity and bypassing him is feasible. To counter this, Fredrick remains close to the weaker/valuable members of the party, and delays his turns so as to *allow* the enemies to close *if* they appear that they will, advancing on them only when it becomes apparent that they will not close on their own. When full-attacking, Fredrick can one-shot most enemies with his power attack, and as such quickly becomes a primary target. This also makes him a primary target for charm/compulsion spells. Granted, he always was a good target, but now his destructive potential makes it an imperitive. Armor class and lack of mobility hurts ability to remain alive, and glass cannon streak continues.

Bishop is continuing his timid tactics, and through these levels comes to rely even less upon his sneak attack, which causes his in-combat utility to plumet. His continued investment in skills, and renewed roleplay ability is giving him more out-of-combat utility however. "Bishop has that skill", becomes a common phrase. Bishop takes Leadership, which nets him a cohort who is arguably more useful than he is in combat, having limited spell casting ability and the ability to sneak attack.

Lila is beginning to eclipse Fredrick as primary damage dealer. Not because she deals more damage per round, but because she stays alive longer. Uses of Ki Power are no longer an issue, as she has plenty, and few enemies survive a full two-weapon salvo. Her AC continues to skyrocket, and she becomes nigh-unhittable by normal means due to wise use of stat-boost items, and a strategy of multiple small AC bonus items rather than single large-bonus items. When she does get hit though, she is in trouble. Her low hit points are becoming a serious liability, and she is susceptible to save/sucks and save/dies.

Rick is declining in usefullness. His grab-bag of abilites have no synergy at all, and his high STR is no longer enough to makeup for his medium base attack bonus. Rick is entirely dependant upon full attacking with flurry of blows to deal any significant damage, which he receives opportunity to do by utilizing tactics similar to Fredrick. Unfortunately, his lower base attack bonus is causing his iteratives to hit less often, resulting in less damage. His speed makes him useful for chasing down skirmishers, and he is still able to trip these enemies on occasion. His social skills are acceptable, but his role as party face diminishes as the other party members begin to take a larger role in determining the direction of the group throughout the campaign.

Elsa now has access to teleportation and scrying. While her spells are still very useful in battle, they are by no mean neccessary. With no spells which can outright *win* an encounter for the party, and facing more powerful and potent opponents, she has picked up the Improved Counterspell feat. When possible, Elsa buffs the party before combat, or before teleporting into danger. If spellcasting threats exist, they are sometimes able to save against her spells now, and have options (or contingencies) available to them if they don't. Against powerful spellcasters, her ability to fire off dispels ensures debuffed enemies. The sorcerer's excellent ability to counterspell using Heighten and Improved Counterspelling makes readying an action to dispel a viable (if not preferred) tactic against powerful casters. Only the most powerful spells get through, and even those can be stopped on a good dispel check. This keeps the party relatively safe, and allows them to dispatch the caster quickly.

At this point, total effectiveness within the party is changing, though the top slot remains the same;

1. Elsa, Battle Sorcerer (Party is dependant upon her protection from enemy spellcasters, spells still effective against most enemies, teleport is nice to have)
2. Lila, Ninja (Extremely difficult for normal enemies to hit, good out-of-combat ability, and good damage on full attack)
3. Fredrick, Fighter (When up, deals tremendous damage...when up)
4. Bishop, Rogue/Expert/Fighter (Doesn't get sneak attacks enough, but cohort provides effective buff spells)
5. Rick, Monk (Relegated to chasing skirmishers, does not contribute in some battles)

The World is Our Oyster, Levels 16 Through 20

The party is now pursuing their own far-reaching goals, and tying loose endswhich they may have created. They are valuable to many, and have the clout to get anything they need, when they need it. Most adventures revolve around personal goals, and righting wrongs which they have created due to earlier adventures. These levels see the eventual loss of Rick Whitegate, our resident monk.

Frederick is beginning to fix his armor class problem, but is still limited to the full attack in order to deal his tremendous damage. Still, this damage is significant enough that the party works together to provide flanks to help iteratives hit, and works to channel enemies in order to limit the neccessity of Frederick to move to reach big enemies. Elsa utilizes battlefield control spells to "trap" enemies in five-foot step range for Fredrick. Very same spells occasionally trap Fredrick, leaving him vulnerable.

Bishop is beginning to make more use of his in-combat ability and begins to take part in combat more often. While lacking the shear power of Lila or Fredrick, his ability to sneak attack consistently provides a decent amount of consistent damage. His numerous skills come in very handy to various party members who are trying to pursue their significant campaign goals. Bishop's cohort takes a back seat as Bishop makes good gear choices, and comes into his own.

Lila's situation is much the same as before, though her armor class is beginning to be hit more often, placing her in peril more times than not. She has aquired an Iron Golem, which stands in as an excellent tank, and provides an excellent flanking partner for just about everybody due to it's size. As Bishop takes a more active role, her out-of-combat skills are not in such high demand as before. Lila begins to have more difficulty landing sudden strike as more enemies have blindsight, true seing, or any of the various other abilities which negate her ability to move unseen.

Rick is really just along for the ride at this point. His in-combat use is declining, and his overall campaign goals have been mostly realized. His abilities make no sense and do not synergize with his own abilities, or even those of anyone in the party. He is still usefull as a flanking buddy, and occasionally lands th big flurry of blows, but it is nowhere near common enough. Eventually, Rick dies while allowing the rest of the party to escape, and it is decided that the manner of his death was fitting to the character. All agree that now is the time to say goodbye to Rick.

Elsa in no longer engaging in melee except under the direst of situations, and usually, her ability is not good enough to get her through with melee alone. Even fully buffed, she is far better off buffing the party and focusing on battelfield control. While she could possibly take over the role of virtually any party member by virtue of her spells, it is neither practical nor useful to do so. The spells neccessary to do so would be far more useful cast upon the character specializing in that role (making them absolutely amazing in that role), rather than on her (making her good enough at that role). Elsa has settled into the role of party facilitator. Counterspelling/dispelling abilities remain important. Elsa has difficulty choosing small number high level spells which she would need to cast many times per day. Elsa acquires a cleric cohort to help with ressurections.

At ths point, party effectiveness is as follows;

Elsa, Battle Sorcerer (As expected, Tier 2 rules the roost in this group)
Fredrick, Fighter (Party tactics have made him a tre combat beast)
Lila, Ninja (Is hurting from numerous enemies which negate her ability to land sudden strike, but does so just enough to keep the third spot)
Bishop, Rogue/Expert/Fighter (While more useful than the monk, past build decisions mean he is unlikely to ever eclipse the others)
Rick, Monk (Not useful at these levels, and probably left the campaign later than he should have)

Epic; Levels 21 Through 25-26 (Lila made 26)

After a long hiatus the party came out of retirement for one last great campaign, this time in EPIC. Epic brings a whole new dimension into play. Enemies are ridiculously overpowered, but so are the characters. Epic Magic allegedly breaks the universe at level 21, and whole classes become utterly obsolete as soon as you ding for that twentieth time. Mages cast epic spells with impunity while everyone else has no choice but to sit and watch. At least that's what I had been led to believe. But we gave it a shot anyways. In many ways, things felt much the same as they had leading up to this point, except "mooks" were actually CR16 enemies. The differences came when the big boys came out. The truely epic monsters with CR's over 20. +6 weapons are prohibitively expensive for what you get, especially in low epic, so damage reduction was tough.


Fredrick *really* came into his own in epic. In most battles, things progressed how they normally did, only now, with big bads that had significant damage reduction which could not be overcome without epic weapons, he came to really rely upon power attack. No longer could he stack multiple iteratives with moderate power attack and deal damage through accumulation. He had to really press. This meant that the team had to work harder to ensure that Fredrick (and by extension, everyone) had to best chance of hitting as could possibly be acheived. Even then iteratives commonly missed. Still, as the only frontliner who didn't rely upon sneak attack or sudden strike, he was extremely valuable. At this point, losing Fredrick when facing a sneak or crit immune enemy meant pulling out and getting him back into commission.



Bishop's performance remained much as it had been in previous levels. He now had a bow with significant enchantment and STR pull that he could make himself useful at range, though nowhere near what the other members of the group could be. His out of combat utility remained, but he was now little more than that unless he risked all and entered melee. Even without two-weapon fighting, Bishop's sneak attack could account well for itself, if he got in range to use it. As with all melee in the group at this point, iteratives were of prime importance, and these were much harder to land for Bishop than they were for Fredrick. Because he would not close with enemies that he could not sneak attack, he offered little help in the form of flanking or aiding against these enemies.



Lila however, *could* land her iteratives, or at least a good portion of them, since she was rolling 7 times when she full-attacked. Against the right enemies, she was money, capable of dishing out far more damage than Bishop, and only second to Fredrick. She could struggle with damage reduction, or sneak/crit immune enemies though. In fact, due to the epic damage reductions, if an enemy was sneak/crit immune, Lila was pretty much reduced to a shell of her former self, and could barely contribute at all. Her iron golem remained very useful though. Not at a true combat threat, but as a facilitator of flanks, and even *aid another* actions to help allies hit. Oftentimes, Lila herself was reduced to this role in order to help Fredrick down a sneak/crit immune enemy.



Elsa experienced perhaps the greatest shock at epic levels. She took epic spellcasting at level 21, and immediately began researching epic spells. Some spells were mitigated down to zero, while others would not have been feasible to do so without chain gating solars and other epic cheese, which Elsa avoided. All in all, she fielded some good, but not broken, spells. None of them were game breaking, and since she could only cast 2 per day, their impact was somewhat limited. As for her 1-9 spells...big enemies were making their saves more often than not, meaning they were of primary use against the little guys. Counterspelling remained effective however, as did dispelling. Disjunction, carefully placed, became the preferred method for demolishing heavily buffed enemies. Save/suck and save/lose spells were no longer a reliable way to turn the tide of battle, and summoned/called creatures are easily disposed of by big epic baddies. At this point, Elsa needed the group probably more than ever. Had she made use of the more smelly cheese out there, the situation may have been different. Elsa also became more cautious in her actions as she was often the party's only reliable method of escape if things went wrong.



So at the close of our campaign, things looked as so;



1: Fredrick, Fighter (Essential to defeat certain enemies, hit point damage becomes sometimes the only feasible way to down enemies before they down you)

2: Elsa, Battle Sorcerer (What Fredrick did would not be possible without Elsa, and Elsa still played a primary role as a facilitator for the group)

3: Lila, Ninja/Elf Paragon/Rogue (Staggering damage against certain enemies, but severely diminished against certain enemies)

4: Bishop, Rogue/Expert/Fighter (Many of the same problems as Lila, but not as effective when they were overcome)



Conclusion


So there it is. A rough outline of our experience as we took these characters from 1-25(26) in actual tabletop gameplay, and how things played out for our group. Now this is in no way representative of how things would play out for any other group. It only applies to ours. The conclusions that our group drew from the experience is surely different from the conclusions that you will draw from reading this, but it is my hope that it can foster some good discussion, and shed some light on how things can *possibly* play out at the actual game table. I will try and keep track of the thread and answer any questions that anyone might have.



Thanks for reading.

-Crow

[Rixx]

The fact that the straight fighter remained a valuable party member up until the end made me smile.

[dsmiles]

That actually read much as I have come to expect over the years (given decent roleplayers with enough maturity to not intentionally break the game). Everybody tends to remain relevant in non-cheese campaigns, and, in many of the campaigns I have run, even the monk has remained relevant. Granted, yours didn't keep up, but with the right equipment and stats, he probably could have.

[Callista]

Notice how the magic-user's high power level is offset by the way most of her power is being used on her party members, spread around rather than causing her to outshine anyone else. She may be theoretically capable of outshining them, but since this is a cooperative game and not a contest, she's using the more sensible strategy involving teamwork which essentially lets her teammates be the ones to wield most of her power. In my experience, this is what tends to happen with most spellcasters who don't go the straight blaster route.

[Bayar]

Notice how the magic-user's high power level is offset by the way most of her power is being used on her party members, spread around rather than causing her to outshine anyone else. She may be theoretically capable of outshining them, but since this is a cooperative game and not a contest, she's using the more sensible strategy involving teamwork which essentially lets her teammates be the ones to wield most of her power. In my experience, this is what tends to happen with most spellcasters who don't go the straight blaster route.

Well, it's what most GOD wizards do. Buff the allies, debuff the enemy, battlefield control a bit if necessary and let the mortals fight .

Also, that's one massive wall of text.

[dsmiles]

Also, that's one massive wall of text.

But a darn good read.

[Callista]

Well, it's what most GOD wizards do. Buff the allies, debuff the enemy, battlefield control a bit if necessary and let the mortals fight

Yeah. The wizard's power doesn't have to be a problem if that's how it's used. For all practical purposes, it's like the wizard is a walking magic item that everybody's got access to.

[Crossblade]

The previous replies said everything I was going to!
I was always curious how a Battle Sorcerer played at high levels, and how non-optimized play worked. (Though as a Rogue enthusiast, I'm curious how Bishop became less useful, in that 'what was his build?'. But build details would likely be too much info to recreate for every character fully)

And my google-fu failed. I lack significant knowledge about Dungeoncrashers. All I found was that it's a fighter variant from Dungeonscape? What are it's other highlights?

I have one, much more big question though; what happened to Rick the Monk's player during the epic level return?

[AstralFire]

Thanks for posting this as asked. I appreciate the read.

[Bayar]

And my google-fu failed. I lack significant knowledge about Dungeoncrashers. All I found was that it's a fighter variant from Dungeonscape? What are it's other highlights?

I have one, much more big question though; what happened to Rick the Monk's player during the epic level return?

1. Well there is not alot to say about dungeoncrasher. It substitutes you level 2 and 6 fighter bonus feats for 4d6 / 8d6 damage to a target you bull rushed into a wall, bonus to destroy things...no other highlights.

2. How I understand is he became disinterested in the game and left after his monk sacrificed himself.

[Seatbelt]

My party in my current game really needs a cleric. This post made me realize that I could take leadership and get a cleric.

But beyond that I really enjoyed this. My only experience with high level play consisted of tier 1 classes.. probably played at tier 2 or high tier 3. The blaster sorc with the ray specialist PrC could drop large HP monsters in 1 shot. My Cleric/Ordained Champion could deal devastating power attacks. We had a party buffer/battlefield control/heal bot cleric without wich the party would not have srvived, and a fighter/order of the bow initiaite for only 2ish levels, and then Scout for the rest.

Despite our dwarf archer player picking a slightly weaker series of levels, good feat choices and the players natural dwarfy tendencies to be fully equipped at all times made him very relevant. His attack bonus was utterly ridiculous, especially after the cleric buffed him. His individual attacks were weak but on a full rapidshot attach, most attacks hit and he could rack up 60 damage a round reliably. My cleric on the other hand could power attack/smite/full attack and rack up 100+ damage but it wasn't always consistent because of buffs being up. More often than not he only landed 1 attack for high damage.

I know that fighters blow but the point is that in actual play a fighter can remain very vital and integral to the group even at high levels. Granted almost all our archer could do was hit things with his bow. But he liked rolling fist fulls of dice. So he was happy with that.

[LordBlades]

Really good read. Glad you guys had such a fun campaign.

Also, shows how a caster should be played in a much lower powered group in order not to outshine anyone.

I wish the game was this playable at a higher power level

[true_shinken]

No surprises and a very good read. Congrats, Crow.

[Runestar]

It is similar to how I thought epic magic would play out, and seems roughly in line with what dicefreaks discovered.

Guidelines for a 21st level PC

Short version:
• Attacks - to hit AC 40, touch AC 15, flat footed AC 37.
• Attacks vs paragons - to hit AC 50, touch 42, flat-footed 41.
• Armor Class - 47
• Hit points - 183 (tanks or melee-ers should exceed this as much as they can manage! Double would be good)
• Special Ability save DCs - 35.
• Skills - +50 for effective skill use (where opposed checks are involved).
• Damage - 96hp/round minimum.
• Saves - +26 for your worst save.

Given that epic monsters tend to have insanely good saves (each at least +20), if you cannot manage a save DC of at least 35, then you are better off using spells which don't require saves (either buffs, debuffs like enervation, ray of enfeeblement or waves of exhaustion or ranged touch spells like orbs/rays).

[Greenish]

1. Well there is not alot to say about dungeoncrasher. It substitutes you level 2 and 6 fighter bonus feats for 4d6 / 8d6 damage to a target you bull rushed into a wall, bonus to destroy things...no other highlights.

Well, 4d6+2xStr and 8d6+3xStr.

Also a minor bonus vs. traps.

[Psyren]

\ Everybody tends to remain relevant in non-cheese campaigns, and, in many of the campaigns I have run, even the monk has remained relevant.

Perhaps in yours... but unless I'm misreading, this monk had significant issues keeping up.

[Adamantrue]

Perhaps in yours... but unless I'm misreading, this monk had significant issues keeping up.

No offense to the Player, but it sounds like he wasn't trying to keep up.

Rick levels up entirely in Monk, and uses primarily core, his player being too lazy to really explore other options. Rick dumps the majority of his skills points into "social" skills.

[dsmiles]

Perhaps in yours... but unless I'm misreading, this monk had significant issues keeping up.

No offense to the Player, but it sounds like he wasn't trying to keep up.

This. Plus, you missed the last sentence in my post where I said that that particular monk wasn't keeping up.

[Psyren]

No offense to the Player, but it sounds like he wasn't trying to keep up.

Even if he had put those ranks into, say, Tumble and Balance instead, his core problems were still the same. "He was too fragile to stay in melee." "He relied on his high strength more than the strength of his class." "His armor class was very low, and coupled with his low hit die, he is often very low on hit points." The skills he picked wouldn't have changed that.*

He did what non-gish, non-dex melee should do - everything to Strength - but his class was his own worst enemy here.

*Excepting perhaps UMD

[Adamantrue]

He did what non-gish, non-dex melee should do - everything to Strength - but his class was his own worst enemy here.

Well, without knowing the specifics, I would have put the 18 into Dex (and grab Weapon Finesse), eventually worked on getting enchanted Shuriken, and made more of a Grappler to mostly deal in Touch ACs. That would be decent melee & ranged, and would have played a similar role to the Ninja.

[Seerow]

This boys and girls is why you don't roll stats.

but cool story bro

[dsmiles]

This boys and girls is why you don't roll stats.

Personal opinion, of course. I'd hate for someone to impinge on my fun by saying that rolling for stats is wrong.

[Psyren]

Well, without knowing the specifics, I would have put the 18 into Dex (and grab Weapon Finesse), eventually worked on getting enchanted Shuriken, and made more of a Grappler to mostly deal in Touch ACs. That would be decent melee & ranged, and would have played a similar role to the Ninja.

That would just increase his MADness further. Grapplers need strength, so the minute you went up against something bigger than you you'd be at a considerable disadvantage and there'd be no point.

[Adamantrue]

Nah. This sounds like a DM that struck the right balance with the Players, and the PCs would have no problem working together to pick up each others' slack. Casting Bull's Strength & Enlarge Person would work just as well on the Monk as the Fighter, and stepping outside Core for Feats to pick up would have made a lot of a difference.

Get past that, pick up Move Silently, Hide, Spot & Listen, play the part of the Scout for your party, and anything that's really too big to 'rastle you toss Brilliant Energy Corrosive Surge (or whatever is appropriate for a Ranged Weapon) Shuriken at from a distance while the Fighter beats on it up close.

[Starbuck_II]

I love that the Ninja did well in the campaing. Did she take Improved Fient? It would have helped.

[mint]

Thank you for posting this. It was an interesting read.

[Crow]

I have one, much more big question though; what happened to Rick the Monk's player during the epic level return?

Rick's player had softball on the nights that we usually gamed. On the occasions that he did manage to stop by, he helped run some of the monsters.

I love that the Ninja did well in the campaing. Did she take Improved Fient? It would have helped.

She did not have improved feint. I will mention that to her though!

[mint]

There is a feat from Dragon in the crystal keep feat index called "wolfs bite".
You expend one use of Ki power and gain the following feats for one round:
Imp Disarm, Imp Feint and Imp Trip.
Which is cute.

[Akal Saris]

What puzzles me is why Else went with Battle sorcerer, when it looks to me like she wasn't really fighting with weapons at any time, so just plain vanilla sorcerer would have been better.

[Chaelos]

Notice how the magic-user's high power level is offset by the way most of her power is being used on her party members, spread around rather than causing her to outshine anyone else. She may be theoretically capable of outshining them, but since this is a cooperative game and not a contest, she's using the more sensible strategy involving teamwork which essentially lets her teammates be the ones to wield most of her power. In my experience, this is what tends to happen with most spellcasters who don't go the straight blaster route.

+1

This has been my experience as well with casters. Straight fighters/barbarians/other melee types, despite their low tier rating, tend to be the characters we (at least, "we" in every game I've ever played) rely on the most in the vast majority of combat situations, while casters usually focus on making their fighter even better at fighting.

Very enjoyable read, Crow. I'm glad things went so well.