Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

New thread time!

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Cheesegear presents Cheesegear's Newbie Guide on How to pick Warhammer 40K army, by Cheesegear (and contributors).

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Disclaimer: This is not a guide to say which armies are 'better' than other armies. Except in hyperbole. The 'stars' notation is for what Newbies should play. By no means does this mean that you shouldn't play Chaos Daemons. It means that if you're a new player and don't fully understand the rules to the game, it might be hard to make Daemons work.

Any unit that gets specifically mentioned is a stand-out unit, or will represent a 'must-have' unit that the army has.

General Advice for all armies;

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• Where possible, you should always talk to a GW Staff Member. No, you don't have to actually listen to or do anything they say. But, you should at least talk to them so they can point you in at least a general direction. Don't buy anything on your first trip into the store. GW Staff are very persuasive, and you can - or will - often end up buying something you don't even want.
• If and when you do finally decide on an army, play a few games in an actual GW Store using the Store's models. Otherwise, where possible, use proxy models. This will give you a basic understanding of most of the rules and the turn sequence and a general idea of how your army-of-choice plays. Or, at least give you an idea that an army or unit that you thought was cool, really isn't. Or maybe that particular army just isn't for you. And that unit that 'looks cool' doesn't fit your play style.
• Read a Codex. Whatever gets said on the internet, means absolutely nothing if you don't have a Codex to understand what's being said. This ties into the above in that it's kind of important that you have played a few games and know the rules.
• GW doesn't mention it all that much, but; You don't have to use your army's Codex for your army. For example; It's perfectly reasonable to, say, use the Chaos Space Marine Codex to represent a 1st Company of Loyalist Marines. You can, in fact, use Imperial Guard models to represent Tau, or Eldar. Just so long as your models look suitably awesome and your models conform to the rules of a different list (the WYSIWYG rule). If you can also give a background justification - or 'fluffy' reason - for why your Imperial Guard are wielding Shuriken or Pulse Rifles; Even better!
• In regards to the above; 'Counts as' models can generally be shown to be a fluffy reason for why you have what you have. So, maybe your Imperial Guard regiment has a lot of Ogryns. You can use an Ogryn-holding-a-Lascannon as your 'Heavy Weapon Team'. As long as it's WYSIWYG, and at least makes a passing attempt at conforming to the rules (such as base size/shape), nobody cares. However, GW really doesn't like it when you come into their store and start using a different company's miniatures to play a GW game. However, making a scratch-build from Green Stuff and Plasticard is totally okay. Just so long as you aren't giving their competitors money, eh?
• With that said; Painting, Green Stuff, Plasticard and Conversions in general, the only way to get better at it, is to practice. Start easy, start small. Start with adding cloaks to troops. Large, rectangular pieces of Green Stuff. Easy. Maybe you'll be confident to add textures. Ability comes with practice. And, there are literally dozens of tutorials to be found on YouTube. And hundreds of tutorials just about everywhere else.
• Less is more. Don't try to equip your unit to do everything. Assign your units to fulfill a role, and let them do it. Don't waste points on things you aren't going to use.
• Bodies are far more important than Wargear. Do not spend 100 extra points on Wargear, if you could otherwise spend 100 points on buying a whole unit. Wargear is not a substitute for models. Well, it is. But, it's a poor substitute.
• In regards to the above two points, very rarely, should you spend more than 200 points on a single model (such as an HQ model), or 300 points on a single unit.
• Troops. Win. Games. Do not, under any circumstances, skimp out on your Troops selection. More often than not they are the cheapest unit in the Codex, and, Troops are the only units who can capture an objective. Any unit can contest an objective, but, only Troops can claim objectives. All contesting objectives will do is get you is a Draw.
• Assault on Black Reach. Bad for Space Marine players. Good for Ork Players.
• Vehicles and You.
• Cheesegear's Speaking Of Tournaments.... General themes to consider when attending a competitive arena.
• To Tailor Your List Or Not To Tailor
  
• Wraith's Handy-Dandy Guide to Painting and Assembling an Army
  
• Closet_Skeleton says:
  "Every Troops choice you spend on a non-Scoring unit is Troops choice wasted."
  
• How To Write An Army List | Sample
  
• Should you buy a Battleforce? In most cases, yes.

Guide to Armies

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Space Marines (Codex Marines, SMs):

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Pros: Space Marines are the eponymous 40K army. They are the army by which all other armies are judged. Just about all their units can be outfitted in many different ways to fulfill many different roles (but, in regards to General Advice, they should only try to do one thing at a time). With few exceptions, the entire army selection is plastic for easy conversions and assembly (and, most of the metal models you don't even need). As plastics, the army is also relatively cheap to buy.
GW Staff are extremely knowledgeable on all things Space Marine.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
Power Armour and Bolters.

Cons: Honestly, none. Save for the common misinformation that GW Staff will tell you to get you to buy certain units and sets (like Assault on Black Reach). But, this is by no means bad. As a Space Marine is a Space Marine. And pretty much all the units in the Codex can be useful one way or another.
One such example is that there is a growing proportion of Space Marine players who feel - despite the fluff and the statline - that Scout Squads are superior to Tactical Squads (the reason why is outside the scope of this guide).
The only truly bad thing about Space Marines, is that everybody has them. GW sells them at every opportunity. All starter sets ever produced by GW has contained Space Marines as one of the 'learner' armies. By extension, a lot of people turn to Space Marines because that's what they learned the game with, but, what they don't realise, is that the Assault on Black Reach starter kit is weak.

Recommendation for Newbs; *****. But the Assault on Black Reach kit isn't a good start to a Space Marine army. GW likes misinformation.
* or ** depending on whether or not you care about being 'just like everyone else'.
What's so bad about AoBR?

Codex Space Marines theoretically allows you to build 7 different 'themes' of Space Marines (even though it's 6) based around what colours and which Special Characters you like. However, any special character can be used in any Chapter, painted any colour that you choose. So, really, what Chapter you choose is kind of irrelevant since you can use other Chapters' special characters anyway.

The common belief is that 'Space Marines is Space Marines'. They all have Power Armour and Bolters. All of the above applies to the below;
Dark Angels: Outdated Codex. A few minor differences. Many people are best off going with Codex Marines rather than playing by Dark Angels rules. The only reason to play Dark Angels is for Ravenwing. And, even then, sometimes you might be better off with Codex Marines with a 'Captain on Bike'. *
Black Templars: You will need the FAQ. Slightly more focused on close combat. With some unique rules. ***
Space Wolves: Space Wolves are actually the 'most fair' list out of all the Space Marine variants. They're a solid list. They have no actual 'bad' or 'trap' units. ****
Blood Angels: The only real difference in the List is more options to take Jump Packs, Fast vehicles, and a slight bonus to Deep Striking. Staggeringly similar to Codex Marines otherwise and you wont actually lose much by playing Blood Angels. ****

What if you like one particular unit more than the others? Which Codex would be best for you?

Chaos Space Marines (Chaos Marines, CSMs):

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Like Space Marines, but Evil. So, just about everything that applies to Space Marines applies to Chaos Space Marines.
Pros: Chaos Space Marines are slightly more focused on close combat than their Imperial counterparts - but, by no means to they have to be. CSMs are not necessarily 'better' than regular SMs. Just...Different. Each faction has different toys at their disposal.
There are a variety of different ways you can outfit your squads, and it's kind of difficult to find any two CSM armies the same.
Power Armour and Bolters.
Converting your 'Starter Box' Space Marine army to Chaos Marines is fairly easy. Just add spikes and arrows and mutations.

Cons: There are options in the Codex. Too many options some say. It's very easy to get confused on what or what not to get for your squads and characters. And it's even easier to go overboard on wargear and skills and the like (remember; Wargear != Bodies).
CSMs are also a fairly commonly seen army as they cater to the people who want to play Space Marines, but, think that 'Evil is Cool'. Some do consider who they get associated with as a bad thing.
The 'some of everything' approach that a lot of new players have when collecting their armies doesn't really work for Chaos Marines. Most of the time, you're best off going all-out on one or two of the Cult units (below).

Recommendation for Newbies: ****

Chaos Space Marines (Cults):

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Contributions supplied by Winterwind, DaedalusMkV and unknowingly by Myatar Panwar

World Eaters/Khorne-based/Beserkers:
Lots of attacks...Aaand...That's about it. Khorne Beserkers have WS 5 and also gain Furious Charge, meaning that when Assaulting, they're hitting and wounding most things on 3s and 2/3s. Their initiative 5 (when Assaulting) helps them a lot when they can strike before most enemies and kill them before they get attacks back. Khorne Berzerkers are fairly good at what they do, but, their individual unit effectiveness is directly proportional to their opponent's armour save.
Meaning, that, for the most part, you need lots of Beserkers. Lots. Khorne Beserker armies also don't function very well without Rhinos, as their only ranged weapons are Pistols. So, this is a lot of currency. On top of which; As they lack ranged weapons, Obliterators, Vindicators and Defilers are almost required for the army.
Khorne Lords and Daemon Princes are considered to be the least efficient. The Daemon Weapon gives you double the chance to hurt yourself. As well as +2D6 Power Weapon attacks is pretty much overkill. You don't really need that many.
Their special character - Kharn - is quite good though.
*** You will need Rhinos. Luckily, Berzerkers come in boxes of 12 (which is more than the other Cult units) and are plastic. Which is good.

Thousand Sons/Tzeentch-based:
All models with the Mark of Tzeentch gain an Invulnerable save. Or, their save gets improved if they already have one. This makes Tzeentch-based lists very tough to kill on the outset.
Onto specialised units; Thousand Sons are a Troop choice that comes with a 4+ invulnerable save, and have AP3 Bolters. Perfect for objective-squatting. This also makes them deadly in ranged firefights - and their invulnerable save makes them hard to kill on the return. Being Slow and Purposeful, it's a good idea to get as much use our their Bolters as you can get.
Thousand Sons also have a Sorcerer as their 'Sergeant'. Chaos Psychic Powers being as they are, this is quite good, as most 'shooting' powers tend to be AP3 or better, or allow no save at all. The Sorcerer also comes with a Force Weapon (add Warptime for fun). Meaning units with an Independent Character kind of need to think twice before Assaulting Thousand Sons units.
However, units without Independent Characters (that you can't target), and other dedicated Assault units will have an easy time. As Thousand Sons are the worst Assault unit in the Codex. But, this isn't saying a whole lot, as they're still Space Marines.
Tzeentch Daemon Princes and Sorcerers are quite good, able to choose and use two powers in the same turn. As well as receiving a better Invulnerable save. Tzeentch Lords are 'okay'. The Tzeentch special character - Ahriman - is pretty good. But, far too overpoints'd.
*** Thousand Sons boxes are expensive. But, you get plenty in a box.

Emperor's Children/Slaanesh-based/Noise Marines:
Marks of Slaanesh add to Initiative. This means pretty much everything in the CSM army will be functioning at Initiative 5. If you're unit holds Power Weapons, you can do a lot of damage before your opponent even gets to attack.
Noise Marines. Are. Amazing. Sonic Blasters are essentially Storm Bolters that get an extra shot if you're standing still. A Blastmaster, is a S8, AP3 Blast weapon that causes Pinning. Do you want yet? Just before Assaulting, the Noise Marine Champion has access to a S5, AP3 Flamer. This will kill things dead. Then Assault, at Initiative 5 (if you're opponent didn't fail their Morale check from you shooting the crap out of them, that is) and you can do some serious damage.
Daemon Princes and Sorcerers gain Lash of Submission. Usually considered one of the more unfair psychic powers as it allows you to move your opponent's models. Where? Into Dangerous Terrain, out of their precious cover, towards your own models into Assault range, or even just moving their Heavy Weapon team out of LoS.
Chaos Lords with Blissgiver are perfect Character killers as with 3+D6 attacks and Initiative 6, they only need to cause one wound (with a 'Power Weapon') to kill pretty much anything they want.
Lucius the Eternal is just as good as - if not better than - Kharn. And doesn't even cost that many points.
**** The Noise Marine box doesn't come with with many Sonic Blasters. They are, however, available in bulk from Mail Order. But, they're not that important. You're really only getting Noise Marines for Blastmasters and Doom Sirens.

Death Guard/Nurgle-based/Plague Marines:
Extra Toughness. Might not seem like much. But, it's (usually) the most expensive Mark for units that can take it for a reason. Works best on models in Terminator Armour or models on Bikes.
Plauge Marines are pretty much exactly the same as regular Chaos Marines, except with Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain. They're extremely hard to kill. On top of which, they have Defensive Grenades. And that's pretty good. Aaand...That's about it actually. Not much can be said about Plague Marines except exactly that.
The Mark of Nurgle is mostly wasted on Daemon Princes as they don't really need the extra Toughness compared to what else they could take and Sorcerers on gain access to Nurgle's Rot, which, again, compared to other powers, isn't that great. As Nurgle's Rot works best in close combat. But, Nurgle Sorcerers only get one psychic power per turn. So, it's Nova, or use the Force Weapon.
On Chaos Lords (especially in Terminator Armour), the Mark of Nurgle is alright. Giving access to a reasonably good Daemon Weapon.
The special character for Death Guard is Typhus. He's pretty damn good. Opinion appears to be divided on whether or not he's worth the points. He has Wind of Chaos, and Nurgle's Rot (otherwise known as Nurgle's Nova). And he auto-passes all psychic tests when using those powers. As well as having the Nurgle-based Daemon Weapon, that also counts as a Force Weapon. As well as Terminator Armour and Defensive Grenades. Whether you like him or not is your choice.
**** Plague Marines are pretty boring for options. But, Toughness 5 and Feel No Pain are really, really good. And the Mark of Nurgle is usually the most expensive Mark for those who would get any real use out of it.

Tyranids ('Nids):

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If you think of the movie Alien, or Starship Troopers, Tyranids aren't far off the mark.
Pros: Tyranids are primarily seen as a close combat swarm army. The big Tyranids are extremely customisable and immensely powerful in whatever role you want to give them (but you should only choose one role at a time, remember), and, the smaller Tyranids come in massive numbers designed to make your opponent crap themselves on just how many bodies you can put on the table. The Tyranids also possess one of the most deadly close combat units in the entire game.
A Troops choice that can Infiltrate.
Most of the army is plastic. And, many of the metal models you only need a few of. So, per box, Tyranids are pretty cheap. Also, the Tyranid Battleforce is generally considered the 'best' one. Although, it's definitely recommended by most of the internet that you get two.

Cons: Like CSMs, it's often possible to overload your Monstrous Creatures with too many biomorphs (wargear), which gets expensive. Fast. And, many of the smaller Tyranids are designed for one unchangeable role. The smaller Tyranids can't adapt their units for what they want to do. A Tyranid army is usually seen as very shooty-heavy, or very assault-heavy. It very - extremely rarely - can be both. Often, trying to be both is actually a detriment to the Tyranid army.

Without the bigger Tyranids to back them up, the smaller Tyranids suddenly become a lot more vulnerable, partly because they already have low toughness and high armour saves to begin with. Therefore, you may need to spend a bit of money on the larger, more expensive models.
As a swarm army, box-per-box, you also don't get very many points in each box. This means you'll probably have to end up spending a lot of money to get a decent amount of points onto the table.

Also, like SMs and CSMs, if a 14 year old kid isn't playing SMs or CSMs, then they're playing Tyranids.

Reccomendation for Newbies: ** to ****. Depending on how much real-world currency you have to spend. If you don't have a lot of money, you wont be able to field a lot of bodies or acquire the larger Monstrous Creatures. If you can field ~50 Termagants and 50 Hormagaunts per battle and have Monstrous Creatures to back them up...Good.

Eldar:

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Elves. In SPAAACE!
Pros: The Eldar boast a 'swiss army knife' army. They have a unit for everything and every unit can do their job well. Each and every unit looks vastly different to every other unit, and are actually supposed to be painted in different colours to each other. So, you have a huge variety of models and colours. If variety is important to you.
Most of the army can Fleet. All Eldar tanks are Fast, Skimmers, and the army contains Eldar Jetbikes (which have different rules to 'normal' Jetbikes). In short, the Eldar army boasts speed and maneuverability.
As with their Infantry, they also have HQ units to fit certain roles. An Autarch can be outfitted to suit almost any battlefield role. Eldar Farseers and Seer Councils are powerful psykers. And the Avatar is a close combat Monster (literally).
A lot of the metal models in the range come in reasonable sized boxes at a (fairly) reasonable price. The good news is, you usually don't need too many of the metal models.
Troops unit choice with the ability to Infiltrate and have Sniper Rifles.
A Wraithlord is one of the scariest models in the game. An absurdly high Toughness and a reasonable armour save. And can kill troops and heavy armour with equal ease. Often at the same time. It's strength 10 and Monstrous Creature status also means it can rip apart tanks even when it's guns are suited to killing Infantry. It even causes Instant Death on most Infantry that attack it. Including a lot of HQ characters.
Wraithguard are like smaller Wraithlords high Strength and Toughness, with a good save and toting around deadly guns.
...It's possible to build an entire army out of Wraithguard and Wraithlords.

Cons: Low 'Elf' Toughness.
The sheer amount of variety can sometimes make it hard to decide which units to take. Especially since some of the units in the Eldar army overlap, but, achieve their role in slightly different ways. And it's these 'slightly different ways' that can make or break the unit depending on your opponent. Some particular units are even useless or near-useless depending on your opponent.
Every unit fills a role. And is unadaptive. You can't manipulate any squad to do anything other than what it was designed to do (except Dire Avengers). And, in smaller point games where you can't afford to take every unit you want, you'll know that you're missing that unit. Because nothing else you have will be able to perform as well as the missing unit.
It's these missing units that make of most of the metal models that will be in your army. You'll need the metal models.
Individual Wraithguard units can often be prohibitively expensive in currency.
Taking too many Wraithlords in your army will have people crying for curdled dairy products. That is; Cheese. In lower point games, just one Wraithlord is enough for "OMG! Cheese!" cries.

Recommendation for Newbies: *** or ****. The Eldar army is an army where it's hard - but not impossible - to go wrong. With such a huge mandatory variety in models, an 'I want every unit' mindset (common in newbies) is actually beneficial to the Eldar army setup.

Dark Eldar (DE):

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Like Eldar, but evil (there's an argument that Dark Eldar are more evil than 'regular Chaos'). But vastly different.
Pros: The Dark Eldar as just as fast and just as maneuverable - if not more - as their 'good' Eldar counterparts. Except pack a lot more firepower. Each and every unit is customisable (unlike Eldar) to attack different things. Splinter Cannons for killing Infantry and Dark Lances for popping tanks. And you can fit a lot of both in an army.
The Dark Eldar close combat portion of the army is nothing to be sneezed at either.
The Dark Eldar also posses Raiders. A Fast, Skimming, Open-Topped Transport vehicle. For some, this means putting a squad of Warriors in and flying them around the battlefield and shooting anything that moves thanks to being open-topped.
Because a Raider is also Fast, and Open-Topped, and some Dark Eldar Infantry are also Fleet, it means Dark Eldar are often capable of the 'First Turn Assault'. Given just how effective Dark Eldar assault units are, this can only end well.
Also being Open-Topped, it means that when (rarely if) the Raider is destroyed, it's occupants can bail out easier.
In this author's opinion, the Dark Eldar also host some of the best models in the entire GW range.

Cons: Fragile. Fragile. Fragile. The Dark Eldar army is best described as 'shock and awe' (read the fluff :smallwink:). The goal of the army is to butcher and hamstring the opponent as quickly and as brutally as possible. If it isn't blindingly obvious that the Dark Eldar are winning by Turn 3 or 4, then they probably wont win the battle at all. By turn 3 or 4, most of the Dark Eldar Raiders should be destroyed (if they're not, laugh), leaving the Dark Eldar to rely on their enormous Toughness of 3, or Jetbikes.
The Dark Eldar have huge reliance on their Raider transport vehicles. This will end up costing a fair bit of currency in the end as nearly every unit will need one for extra protection or speed.
A lot of (effective) Dark Eldar armies tend to look the same.

Recommendation for Newbies: ** or ***. The Dark Eldar are easy to learn, but hard to master. But, once mastered...The Dark Eldar tend to either win by a significant margin (often by Turn 3 or 4), or lose spectacularly (by Turn 5 or 6).

Necrons:

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Think The Terminator, or perhaps think of Undead metal skeletons. And you can think of the Necrons.
Pros: Some of the toughest basic Troops in the entire game.
Power Armour and Bolters. Except 'Necron Bolters' have a special version of Rending-but-not-quite, allowing them to wound Toughness 8 or better models or cause Glancing Hits to any vehicle. Including Land Raiders. Yes. The basic Troop type, with no options, can cause Glancing Hits against Land Raiders.
As well as their reasonable Toughness and 'Power Armour', they come with the We'll Be Back rule. Essentially your models can stand back up, even after they've been 'killed'. Like Undead. Or T-800s. Essentially, the Necrons are hard to kill. And sometimes don't even stay dead.
Warscythes - available to Necron Lords and Pariahs - are the best weapon in the entire game. Ignoring all saves - including Invulnerable Saves - and rolling 2D6 for Armour Penetration. Given that both Lords and Pariahs have Strength and Toughness 5, they can and will carve through almost anything put in front of them. Not even 'hard' units, that rely on 2+ armour and Invulnerable saves (like Space Marine Terminators) need to think twice about assaulting Pariahs.
The Necron army list is straightforward. You don't have to worry about whether to take Flamers or Plasmaguns. The unit is the unit. No fiddling necessary.
Most of the (useful) Necron model range is plastic. And also come at a high in-game points cost. For this reason, the Necrons are probably the cheapest army to buy when it comes to currency.
Necrons are extremely easy to paint.
The C'Tan. The Necrons are able to field near-literal Gods on the battlefield.
The Monolith. There's a legend that if you crack it open, it's full of cheese!
Disclaimer: Cheesegear does not endorse breaking your Necron Monolith to find out if cheese is inside it.

Cons: First and foremost, the Phase Out rule. When an arbitrary proportion of your army is destroyed, the Necron army automatically loses. Regardless of the mission being played, the opponent has the same objective; 'Kill them all'.
Certain units are able to mitigate Phase Out from happening. One of the best ways to do this is to take a lot of the cheaper - and less fun - units in the army. For this reason, a lot of (effective) Necron armies tend to look pretty boring and are always pretty similar.
The only real individuality to be found in the entire Necron army list is to be found on the Necron Lord. No other unit truly allows options except for whether to take grenades or not.
The Assault capabilities of the Necron army is pretty effective, but, minimal. Either being expensive in points (like the aforementioned awesome Pariahs) and/or are not Troops. The Necron list also has a profound lack of Power Weapons, which doesn't help. The only power weapons found in the Necron list are Warscythes, which are only found on the expensive units; Lords and Pariahs (please note that Warscythes are awesome, however).
Pariahs may be totally awesome, and perhaps the best unit in the game, but, they don't come with the Necron rule. Meaning, every Pariah you get for your army, means that you're one step closer to Phasing Out earlier.
The basic Necron Troop comes at a high points cost, for this reason, Necrons do not often do well in games that are less than 1000 points.
(Unless the opponent doesn't entirely know what they're doing, and doesn't know how to defeat We'll Be Back or force a Phase Out).

Recommendation for Newbies: The Necrons are a very straightforward list. Very few options to get confused about, and extremely easy to paint. Necrons are very much like the Dark Eldar. It's very easy to make a bad list. It's also very easy to make a completely devastating list if you know what you're doing.
* if you can't get your head around Phase Out or want a list that offers variety.
**** or even ***** if you're looking for an easy army to put together and paint. And you can get your head around Phase Out, and know how to make it less bad.

Tau:

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With help provided by Nameless Ghost, Ricky S and Selrahc

Tau are the archetypal alien race. Very progressive technology and a near-utopic society. Also draws several parallels to Mechs and Exosuits - if you like that sort of thing.
Pros: Firepower. You want a really 'Shooty' army? You pick Tau.
Like Necrons and Space Marines, you actually can't go very far wrong with the 'normal' Troop choice; Fire Warriors. They have a decent save of 4+, so they aren't dying en masse to Bolter fire. And they boast the best base-Troop weapon in the game. Yes. Better than Bolters. Easily. Their Transport (Devilfish), similarly, for it's points cost is one of the best in the game. Second only to the Eldar Wave Serpent. You can field a very respectable army fielding nothing but Fire Warriors and Devilfish - just bring some anti-armour weapons.

HQ and Elites choices field some very respectable units in the form of Crisis Suits and Stealth Teams. Effectively your Mechs/Exosuits/Gears. With their ability to take a wide array of guns, on top of their ability to fire at multiple units at the same time, it makes them a very nice support unit for your Fire Warriors. Or, even a front-line squadron if you're brave enough. Crisis Suits also possess Jet Packs, rather than Jump Packs. Which is a really cool bonus to have. As it allows you to move in the Assault phase for move-shoot-move combos like Eldar Jetbikes.

Tau Heavy Support though is what you're really looking at. Broadsides are exactly what their name suggests if you're into Naval Warfare. Broadsides carry Railguns; High-strength guns designed to annihilate whatever they're pointed at. And they do it well too.
This author would be remiss if he didn't also mention Hammerheads. One of the better tanks in the game.

Cons: Tau fold like paper in Assault. What they do in Shooting, they lose out in Assault. Even worse than Necrons. Low Weapon Skill, low Toughness, low Initiative, and no access to Power Weapons or weapons that don't allow saves in Assault. Their decent armour saves them somewhat, but not much.

The Tau also have more than their fair share of 'trap' units. Which, outside of Themed Lists, don't actually do very well.
Like taking Kroot. Kroot are better in Assault than pretty much anything else in the army, but, that's not really saying much. You're best off with more Fire Warriors.
Ethereals are extremely good. But, your opponent will pretty much always target him first. And then he becomes a massive liability for your army.

Like Tyranids and Chaos Marines, it's kind of hard not to go overboard on Wargear options on your Crisis Suits, because they're all just so good. Leaving you fewer points to spend on Fire Warriors. Not only that, Crisis Suits are not Terminators, and don't do real well under fire.

Heavy Support choices are expensive in points. Problem is, if you don't take them, you're seriously missing out on some really impressive firepower options.

Recommendation for Newbs; *** The Battleforce is one of the better ones around, so long as you remember that the Kroot are essentially 'free'; If you didn't pay currency for them, you're under no obligation to use them. Replace them with Fire Warriors as soon as you can. The Tau way of battle also requires a lot of tactics to use well (similar to Eldar), in that you need to prioritise fire and occasionally you have no choice but to sacrifice the odd unit here and there. Tau often play very static roles, unless you shell out extra currency for Devilfish. Which isn't always the best thing in the world. And no. There really isn't a way around being bad at Assault. The best thing you can hope for is that you've shot the crap out of your enemy before they get there.

Chaos Daemons (Daemons, CDs)

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Daemons. They come out of the Warp to eat your face. That's about all you need to know.
Pros: Chaos Daemons, as an army, possess some of the more powerful units in the game. Strong HQs, strong Elites, reasonably impressive Fast Attack, and some strong Heavy Support in the form of Soul Grinders and Daemon Princes.
The entire army is Invulnerable and sports Eternal Warrior and Fearless on every single unit except the Soul Grinder. But, as a Daemon, the Soul Grinder gets some pretty impressive things on its own. So, Power Weapons and other low AP ranged weapons don't really have any extra effect on Daemons. Your opponent is basically wasting points.
Very powerful Assault army if you can get it there. It only takes three or four models to wipe out an opposing unit of 10 even on a fairly average day.
Very fast army. A number of Beasts/Cavalry and Jump Infantry units, and the whole army Deep Strikes.
High diversity and distinctive imagery of all it's units.
Most of the army is plastic (or soon will be), which keeps currency costs low.

Cons: *Deep Breath* Well, deployment. Before any game even starts, you're at a disadvantage. You can't actually plan with Chaos Daemons. Before the game starts, divide your army in half. Half your army arrives on Turn 1 via Deep Strike, and the rest of the army trickles in over the rest of the game.

...The really annoying part, is that you don't actually get to pick which half you get on the first turn. The only way to make a 'plan' with Daemons, is to have symmetrical halves, so, no matter what comes down, you've got what you want. Which means, all that diversity in models goes out the window as you now need to duplicate every unit. Leading to 'cookie cutter' units. Which nobody really likes - unless you want that.

Yeah, the entire army arrives via Deep Strike and reserves. It's both good and bad, it's more often bad. Since Chaos Daemons have a real lack of shooting. The opposite of Tau, who have low Assault. But, due to Deep Striking, and the disallowance of Assault, your army will get shot at before you get to Assault with your units.

This is solved by 'aggressive Deep Striking', which is ignoring terrain difficulties, and deploying as close to your enemy as you possibly can so you can Assault next turn. This means that you could take casualties from Difficult Terrain, and following Shooting phase from your opponent. To do this, you need lots of models, which costs currency.

The Codex - like Eldar - has a higher-than-normal amount of unit redundancy. Some of those diverse units that you like, just wont be taken because there are other units that can do the same job, better. Like Necrons, Daemons' Elites and Fast Attack choices are mostly just more powerful versions of the Troops units. Because of this reason, Daemons' Troops are pretty lackluster in comparison to everything else. Except that you have to take Troops...well, because they're your Troops. Which is even worse because those Troops units aren't exactly cheap in points.

With such a low save, Fearless is quite often a hindrance. And, unlike Orks or Tyranids, Daemons don't usually have the numbers to keep up a sustained losing-assault. But, Daemons don't usually lose Assault (even with such small unit sizes). So, you've got that.

Recommendation for Newbies: * The deployment rules are like nothing a new player would be able to deal with. Not to mention the complexity and tactics that you need with a Chaos Daemons army in order to win.
** If you really like the imagery and painting/conversion opportunities that Chaos Daemons presents.
Sadly, Daemons are more Cons than Pros unless you build your list a specific way. Which you - a new player - probably wont do.

Grey Knights (GKs):

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TBD. Needs redoing for new Codex.

Recommendation for Newbies: * or **
A pure Grey Knight Army is arguably one of the trickiest and most difficult army to use in Warhammer 40,000 - every casualty is a massive set back and your plans have to go off perfectly, for even the slightest mistake will leave you crippled in an instant.

Witch Hunters and Sisters of Battle (WHs, SoBs): ***

Orks: *** to ***** depending on how much currency you have (horde army). Extra points because it's the more useful of the AoBR Starter Armies. So, a decent Ork army actually comes stock in the 'newbie box'.

Imperial Guard (IG): * to ***** depending on how much currency you have. A ***** IG army is the single-most expensive army in the entire game. Even more than Daemonhunters.
Imperial Guard Tanks.

Still to come;
Imperial Guard, re-done Grey Knights, Witch Hunters and Orks.
These armies I have lot of experience with. Send PMs if you believe you have advice that I might leave out.

Actually looking for, or things I can't write myself;
More General Advice (I think I've covered most of it).

SEND PMs. Don't Derail Thread.
Please submit suggestions for additions to the guide to my PM box as to keep from derailing the thread. Also, try and keep it general. Specifics can be delved into after the aspiring player has picked an army.

This hobby breeds opinions like no tomorrow. Please read.

Some Battle Reports

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Previous Threads

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* Warhammer 40K Tactics
* -II- Tactics for the Tactics God
* III - Hats for the Hat Throne
* IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.
* V: Everyone Is On Fire. Some Moreso Than Others.
* VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.
* VII: Common Sense is not RAW.
* VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Maths
* IX: "Mech Is King? I Never Voted For It!"
* X: "Everybody expects the Inquisition!"
* XI: "More Threads than your Tactical Squad has Room for!"
* Warhammer 40K Tabletop XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"

Last time in the Eternal Darkness

The last two pages of the thread devolved into discussions of what the next thread title should be. Even though it doesn't even matter, really.

We now return you to regular darkness...

yay new thread! :smallbiggrin:

anyway, does the rule in the space marines codex that says that bike squads of at least five models can be taken as troop also apply to scout bikers? or do they stay in the fast attack slot?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabado

yay new thread! :smallbiggrin:

anyway, does the rule in the space marines codex that says that bike squads of at least five models can be taken as troop also apply to scout bikers? or do they stay in the fast attack slot?

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Unless it's been errata'd it does not apply to Scout Bikers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tarinaky

Unless it's been errata'd it does not apply to Scout Bikers.

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okay, but i can still take attack bikes if i make the bike squad troop right?

Cheesegear: You have missed Thread XII: "Now In Rapid Fire Range!" and the list of GitP Warhammerers' Battle Reports from your OP.

Jus' sayin'. :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Last time in the Eternal Darkness

The last two pages of the thread devolved into discussions of what the next thread title should be. Even though it doesn't even matter, really.

We now return you to regular darkness...

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Because we've got to finish out the last page somehow and no one wants to post anything they actually expect an answer for when the thread is going to be left behind and some random time in the next few hours.

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Originally Posted by Erloas

Because we've got to finish out the last page somehow and no one wants to post anything they actually expect an answer for when the thread is going to be left behind and some random time in the next few hours.

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This, pretty much. :smalltongue:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabado

okay, but i can still take attack bikes if i make the bike squad troop right?

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Only as part of the Bike Squad, not Attack Bike Squads.

Too early to discuss the thread title for XIV? :smallwink:

Brains a muddle at the moment. I'm trying to prep an Ork army for an upcoming tournament. Having seen what most people in the area field, I know my usual lists don't stand much of a chance. I don't really have the models or time to make one of the more popular lists (Green Tide, Kan Wall, Battlewagon spam) and have bits of each.

My current 1750 list is (in brief):
-3 deffrolla Battlewagons, 2 full of slugga boys, 1 with a trio of Meganobz
-Ghazghkull
-KFF big mek
-Snickrot and Kommandos
-Grot zooka killa kans
-Deffkopta with rokkits and buzzsaw
-Shoota boys in trukk
-Objective grabbin' grots

I had lootas but they have utterly failed to do anything, due in part to being the only infantry to shoot at early on and getting every low strength weapon pointed at them.
In the last tournament I ended up dead centre of the rankings with 2 wins, 2 loses and a draw. The BW are usually good at getting the boys to the enemy line, but with so much Mech I'm having trouble making an impact when I get there.

I'm currently thinking of just using this list and letting go of hopes of grand victory and instead focus on having fun individual games. That said, I applied that logic to the last tournament and found the flavour lacking without the sweet tang of victory. I worry I have become all about the winning. :smallfrown:

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Originally Posted by Wraith

Cheesegear: You have missed Thread XII: "Now In Rapid Fire Range!" and the list of GitP Warhammerers' Battle Reports from your OP.

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Yeah, fixed now.

Unfortunately, I'm not quite up to task with writing down all the Battle Reports. Some days there's lots in a row, and other times it goes for weeks without any...And I forget. :smallwink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erloas

Because we've got to finish out the last page somehow and no one wants to post anything they actually expect an answer for when the thread is going to be left behind and some random time in the next few hours.

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But it carries over into the next thread...Well, it usually does, if someone actually posts something that doesn't get resolved and doesn't relate to a title. :smallsigh:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by evisiron

My current 1750 list is (in brief):
-3 deffrolla Battlewagons, 2 full of slugga boys, 1 with a trio of Meganobz
-Ghazghkull
-KFF big mek
-Snickrot and Kommandos
-Grot zooka killa kans
-Deffkopta with rokkits and buzzsaw
-Shoota boys in trukk
-Objective grabbin' grots

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For me the Killa Kans stick out like a sore thumb in this list. They're the only thing that will be crumping across the field slowly, whilst the Grots hog your home objectives and everything else barrels straight to the other side of the table. Except for Snikrot obviously, who'll just whistle nonchalently as he walks on the opposite table edge (now that the its been FAQ'd, Ghazkull can always say hello with him too! :smallbiggrin:).

I'd replace the cans with more Deffkoptas or another squad of Boys in a Trukk, so your army all goes forward as one. I guess there's an arguement for having the Kans sit in your DZ and protect the Grots if anything threatens them. But in all honesty if anything so much as sneezes at Grots they're done for, so you'd be better off snagging other objectives with your Trukks and Wagons full of Boyz rather than protecting the Grots.

I'd drop the Buzzsaws on the Deffkoptas too, you don't want Initiative 2 models in at tiny unit sizes in combat, not usually anyway. Depending on the unit size you could use the points for 1-2 more Meganobz.

I'm a bit of a rookie with Orks though, so I'm probably wrong. :smalltongue:

So Cheesegear. You, uh, haven't taken a look at the Chaos Marine Codex in a while, huh?

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Originally Posted by banjo1985

I'd drop the Buzzsaws on the Deffkoptas too, you don't want Initiative 2 models in at tiny unit sizes in combat, not usually anyway.

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It could be worth to keep a few buzzsaws, for those times you manage a first turn assault against a vehicle (say, the enemy artillery), but it's pretty much an opportunity cost. I've managed to pull it off a total of two or three times, and I've played I don't remember how many games with orks.

Remember, rokkit'koptas hunt vehicles, nothing else. Then, the saw might be useful for a mercykill when the shooting goes worse than usual and it has to be neutralized for the next turn.

GW annual report is out:

Result summary: Sales Down 123.1M from 126.5M and profit pretty much flat.

Remember GW has an annual price rise of like 5% averaged over the whole product line so if they actually had a loss of volume of about 7% again. Not so good. They do not mention the lack of volume growth much.

They also claim that everyone had a positive reaction to finecast and got a 97% Quality Control value. This would have to be the level of kits they deemed shippable at production and not the return to store level.


Better pic of the Ur-Guhl and Medusae (paintjob is very slick):

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http://www.thehogsofwar.com/wordpres...nd-Medusae.jpg

Looks like the Ur-Guhl has two heads and is the mystery skull found on a few DE kits. The Medusa appears to have a moveable visor for the eye-blast.

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Originally Posted by Ninja Chocobo

So Cheesegear. You, uh, haven't taken a look at the Chaos Marine Codex in a while, huh?

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In regards to what? I actually took a look at it the other day...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

In regards to what? I actually took a look at it the other day...

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Just a guess, but I think he means Defilers aren't AV13. I don't know; I've never looked at it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin

Just a guess, but I think he means Defilers aren't AV13. I don't know; I've never looked at it.

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yeah, they're AV12 for some reason :smallconfused:

Probably because most walkers are. Why shouldn't they be?

well they just look more intimidating than AV12. they got all the legs and stuff. the fact that they could be taken out of commission by several shots from a missile launcher just doesn't seem right.

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Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin

Probably because most walkers are. Why shouldn't they be?

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Furiosos are AV13 :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin

Just a guess, but I think he means Defilers aren't AV13.

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For the life of me, I can't see why that would matter. I mean, it's not like I put 'Defilers' in the title of the thread or anything. It quite clearly says Soul Grinders. :smallwink:

In other news, picture this;

During a round in a tournament, a pair of players finish their Deployment Phase, immediately, the Tyranid player forfeits. The Space Wolf player, complains, saying "Just play the game."
The Tyranid responds that the Space Wolf player is playing full Mech, there's no way that he - the Tyranid player - can win, and to save himself the embarrassment of a crushing, humilating defeat, the player will forfeit the match and go have an early lunch or something.

The Space Wolf player responds "You suck. Just play the game, I want to beat you. If you don't, I'm marking you a bad Sportsman. I want to play the game, and you're denying me that right, you're preventing me from having fun."
The Tyranid player calmly responds that that response is why he's forfeiting. Calls a TO over, and hands the piece of paper that says he lost to the TO.

The Space Wolf player wont sign the slip, therefore the TO can't accept the slip, and the Tyranid player has to play him.

The Space Wolf player is summarily asked to leave the Tournament. The Tyranid player, counts as having a Bye for the round, and therefore is awarded a 'win'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

In other news, picture this;

During a round in a tournament, a pair of players finish their Deployment Phase, immediately, the Tyranid player forfeits. The Space Wolf player, complains, saying "Just play the game."
The Tyranid responds that the Space Wolf player is playing full Mech, there's no way that he - the Tyranid player - can win, and to save himself the embarrassment of a crushing, humilating defeat, the player will forfeit the match and go have an early lunch or something.

The Space Wolf player responds "You suck. Just play the game, I want to beat you. If you don't, I'm marking you a bad Sportsman. I want to play the game, and you're denying me that right, you're preventing me from having fun."
The Tyranid player calmly responds that that response is why he's forfeiting. Calls a TO over, and hands the piece of paper that says he lost to the TO.

The Space Wolf player wont sign the slip, therefore the TO can't accept the slip, and the Tyranid player has to play him.

The Space Wolf player is summarily asked to leave the Tournament. The Tyranid player, counts as having a Bye for the round, and therefore is awarded a 'win'.

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Wow. Not a fan of either reaction, TBH. I've had games where before deployment you know that you can't possibly win (3rd ed, Assassins mission vs IG Tank Company - 9 pie plates a turn to take out a chaplain), but don't agree with a straight forfeit. IMO, forfeit is there because you have some unforseen circumstance come up (eg illness, family stuff), not "I can't win". Some of my better tournament memories have involved receiving an absolute thrashing - you learn more from them than yet another close loss that you blame on poor dice rolls.

That being said, the SW player reaction is on the far side of OTT. I don't see how the puppy-player could try to justify personal attacks because of this.

And seriously, who doesn't plan for mech-based when going to a tournament?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Callistarius

Wow. Not a fan of either reaction, TBH.

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I could see where the Tyranid player was coming from, though.

Quote:

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forfeit is there because you have some unforseen circumstance come up (eg illness, family stuff), not "I can't win".

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You can choose to surrender for whatever reason you want. It counts as a loss for you and a win for your opponent. Sometimes Major or Minor or even counted as a 'Wipeout' depending on the TO. Forfeiting immediately after the Deployment Phase is kind of lame though. I mean, Turn 3 or 4 I can understand - I've done it myself. But, before Turn 1? Yeah. Its really not cool.

But, sometimes there's no point in playing because the outcome is a forgone conclusion. Nobody really likes to lose if they have a choice, and nobody likes to lose when there's absolutely no chance they could've won anyway.

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you learn more from [Major Losses] than yet another close loss that you blame on poor dice rolls.

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Sometimes you can, and other times you just get your arse straight handed to you for no other reason than a bad match-up.

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And seriously, who doesn't plan for mech-based when going to a tournament?

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Common problem for Tyranids is that they can't. One of the many reasons why they're considered one of the weaker Codecies.

I haven't been to a tourney for a few years, so didn't know of the "choose to surrender" option. If that were clearly spelt out in the tourney rules (or even just common knowledge), that more obviously makes the SW-player reaction even worse.

Wow - I didn't know 'nids were *that* bad. Then again, the way I play, even a killer SW/BA list of doom could look like nids :smallsmile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Common problem for Tyranids is that they can't. One of the many reasons why they're considered one of the weaker Codecies.

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You can but it eats up your precious elite slots. Cause to be honest zoanthropes and hive guard are pretty good at popping transports, but that means you don't get venomthropes.

Also sadly the FAQ has gotten rid of the best anti-mech Doom's ability to hit people inside transports.

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Originally Posted by nyarlathotep

Cause to be honest zoanthropes and hive guard are pretty good at popping transports, but that means you don't get venomthropes.

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Problem with Zoanthropes is their powers work like this;
PsyTest => Roll To Hit => Roll to Pen => Roll to damage
3 (or 4, if you don't like damage rolls) chances to fail. And that's not even including that every other army out there tries to shuts down Powers whenever they can. Compare to a Librarian Dreadnought with Lance. While it may have failed it's Psychic Test - or otherwise failed to kill a vehicle - it's still a Dreadnought with an S6 Force Weapon.

Hive Guard are great. But, AV13+ still is a problem. Like Predators, Leman Russes, and Ironclads with dual-Flamers that are about to tear your swarm a new one.

Of course, there are Tyrannofexes. But, they cost as much as a Land Raider (or Mephiston) and aren't anywhere near as good. Not to mention that they're apparently a pain in the butt to make - if you can find a conversion idea that you like.

Quote:

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Also sadly the FAQ has gotten rid of the best anti-mech Doom's ability to hit people inside transports.

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Tyranids (or, rather, Malan'tai Lists) were incredibly good right up until that happened.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Callistarius

Some of my better tournament memories have involved receiving an absolute thrashing - you learn more from them than yet another close loss that you blame on poor dice rolls.

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yup, one of my fondest warhammer memories was getting my ass handed to me buy a couple of snipers and a rhino full of tactical marines. it helped break me of my old mono-death company ways.

also in regards to the whole tyranids don't have good anti tank defenses, what about the heavy support slot? old one eye and the other monstrous creatures they got milling around down there can pack a serious punch. :smallsmile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabado

also in regards to the whole tyranids don't have good anti tank defenses, what about the heavy support slot? old one eye and the other monstrous creatures they got milling around down there can pack a serious punch. :smallsmile:

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First; Old One Eye is terrible. Just saying.

Problem is, MCs are just so slow. You can put one Carnifex in a Spore and wait for it to land (or, you've ditched your Alpha Warrior like a silly person and gone with a Hive Tyrant), and then watch it get shot at in your opponent's turn. It's not fun.

The other option is Shrikes with Rending Claws and Boneswords. Yes. You read correctly. Why would you take Rending when you already have Power Weapons? Because you have to. Otherwise you're in trouble. Given that 'Nids have no other good FA options except for Deep Striking Gargoyles, Shrikes are a pretty good pick. It's a shame they're almost as much of a pain in the butt to make (or get right) as a Tyrannofex.

But, then your opponent just shoots the Shrikes with Meltaguns, Krak Missiles and Lascannons-on-Razorbacks.

Tyranids can't deal with Mech. True story.

doublepost

I think the Space Wolf's player's reaction is the worse one. What if the Tyranid player had an emergency he didn't want to talk about? (After all, people do have a right to keeping their personal and families medical/personal problems to themselves)

If the other guy concedes you should accept it with no questions. Demanding a reason is just an invasion of the other guy's privacy.

Also: What about squads of Carnofexes? You can take 3 in a single FO slot and charge them across the table drawing fire away from the rest of your army with a decent chance that one of them will survive long enough to hit something.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

First; Old One Eye is terrible. Just saying.

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Against good players.

Tends to tear noobs apart pretty darn quickly. When Old One Eye gets to do what he's supposed to do he is horribly destructive. He just won't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tarinaky

I think the Space Wolf's player's reaction is the worse one. What if the Tyranid player had an emergency he didn't want to talk about? (After all, people do have a right to keeping their personal and families medical/personal problems to themselves)

If the other guy concedes you should accept it with no questions. Demanding a reason is just an invasion of the other guy's privacy.

Also: What about squads of Carnofexes? You can take 3 in a single FO slot and charge them across the table drawing fire away from the rest of your army with a decent chance that one of them will survive long enough to hit something.

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200 points a pop, 4th ed codex had them at 80pts each the only stat change was +2 to Attack and +1 Strength. You will never ever ever take a squad of carnifexes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nyarlathotep

200 points a pop, 4th ed codex had them at 80pts each the only stat change was +2 to Attack and +1 Strength. You will never ever ever take a squad of carnifexes.

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+1 BS, +2 Attacks, -3 Ld and gained 'Living Battering Ram', actually.

I'm not sure where you've got 200pts from as my codex says 160.

That's 480 for a brood of 3 - which is only slightly more expensive than 10 greyknight terminators.

In 1k5 points that still leaves you 1k to spend on the rest of your army, and unlike the Greyknights: Tyranids can take a lot of army for 1k points.

No invulnerable save but as they're multiwound MCs you need at least 4 pie plates to do the job which is a massive investment in firepower and will keep the rest of your army safe as houses.

Alternatively the cheap option is you can take a Mawloc instead of a MyceticSpore Carnifex and ensure you get a pieplate in before the enemy can shoot at it (as well as being cheaper!). Even if it's only S6 against rear that's good enough to mess up a transport or an infantry squad.

In a big game you can also use a Trygon to allow a brood of 3 Carnifexes to, effectively, deepstrike.

TL;DR: Taking Mycetic Spores for your Carnifexes is DOING IT WRONG

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Originally Posted by Tarinaky

In a big game you can also use a Trygon to allow a brood of 3 Carnifexes to, effectively, deepstrike.

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Carnifii are not Infantry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tarinaky

No invulnerable save but as they're multiwound MCs you need at least 4 pie plates to do the job which is a massive investment in firepower and will keep the rest of your army safe as houses.

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I know exactly what would happen if someone tried this on me. I'd run a single, 155 point Dreadknight with a Greatsword into them and stand good odds of wiping them all out before they even got to attack. 4 Attacks on the Charge, 3+ with Re-rolls to Hit, 4+ with Re-rolls to Wound, no Saves and a Ld 10 Force Weapon effect. Chances are good (2.666 wounds on average) that at least 3 of those attacks will produce Wounds, which means 3 dead Carnifexi. And I5 means that it's striking first.

My Tau, on the other hand, would probably ignore them for the most part. After all, they can only move 6" a turn (plus their Run roll) and aren't actually any more dangerous to me than any other CC threat (which is to say, very, once they actually get close enough and finally batter through my Kroot screens). You want to sink a third of your army into a unit that has no more effect than any other unit? Be my guest, I'll be busy shooting out your Synapse creatures. :smalltongue:

In other words, they're either too easy to destroy (Hammernators, other MCs, anything with a Force Weapon) or simply don't pose enough of an actual threat for their points (Any army capable of outmanoeuvring infantry can outmanoeuvre Carnifexi) to have the effect you want.

Carnifii fail. I saw a Blood Angel player with Stormravens just zip around shooting the Gaunts, then about Turn 3, when the Carnifii were almost in Assault range, the Stormravens 24" moved to the other side of the table. Made the Carnifii sad face.

The Sanguinary Guard never even got out.

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Originally Posted by Tome

I know exactly what would happen if someone tried this on me. I'd run a single, 155 point Dreadknight with a Greatsword into them and stand good odds of wiping them all out before they even got to attack. 4 Attacks on the Charge, 3+ with Re-rolls to Hit, 4+ with Re-rolls to Wound, no Saves and a Ld 10 Force Weapon effect. Chances are good (2.666 wounds on average) that at least 3 of those attacks will produce Wounds, which means 3 dead Carnifexi.

My Tau, on the other hand, would probably ignore them for the most part. After all, they can only move 6" a turn (plus their Run roll) and aren't actually any more dangerous to me than any other CC threat (which is to say, very, once they actually get close enough and finally batter through my Kroot screens). You want to sink a third of your army into a unit that has no more effect than any other unit? Be my guest, I'll be busy shooting out your Synapse creatures. :smalltongue:

In other words, they're either too easy to destroy (Hammernators, other MCs, anything with a Force Weapon) or simply don't pose enough of an actual threat for their points (Any army capable of outmanoeuvring infantry can outmanoeuvre Carnifexi) to have the effect you want.

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This is where the argument devolves into you saying a unit then me immediately countering with a unit that kills that unit, then vice-versa. I will not rise to it.

The discussion was how Tyranids can stand a chance against Mech Marines. There's plenty of other stuff in other armies that's equally overkill against Tau (anything that can hold a chainsword by the blunt end) or overkilled by a Dreadknight.

Can we not have discussions expousing the use cases for a unit ruined by playground pokemon card banter? No unit is going to be all things in all situations, that's kindof the point.

Most the complaints about the Carnifex seem to be because it's no longer the swiss-army-knife super unit it was in the 4e codex and there are now incentives to take other units.


PS: I lied, I will rise to it. Imperial Guard take 1,500 points of cheap infantry with Lascannons. Space everything at the maximum of 2" coherency and beat everything. Can we have fun now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tarinaky

Can we not have discussions expousing the use cases for a unit ruined by playground pokemon card banter? No unit is going to be all things in all situations, that's kindof the point.

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Those were examples, based on the armies I actually play and the lists I actually use. It's not Schroedinger's List, it's the list I actually use, and I'm prepared to bet that most other lists will have a similar way to render them irrelevant.

That aside, the point still stands that most armies will either have a way to wipe out a unit of Carnifexi or the mobility to simply avoid them, thus making the idea of dumping a third of your army into a unit of them to serve as a fire magnet something of a bad idea. :smallwink:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tome

Those were examples, based on the armies I actually play and the lists I actually use. It's not Schroedinger's List, it's the list I actually use, and I'm prepared to bet that most other lists will have a similar way to render them irrelevant.

That aside, the point still stands that most armies will either have a way to wipe out a unit of Carnifexi or the mobility to simply avoid them, thus making the idea of dumping a third of your army into a unit of them to serve as a fire magnet something of a bad idea. :smallwink:

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The point is that you have to react to it. If you use your mobility to avoid the big hard hitters you can't use that mobility to do other things. If you use your big guns to take them out you can't use your big guns to take other things out...

Forcing your opponent to react to your plays, rather than allowing them to dictate plays you have to react to = tactics and fun. Otherwise you're just playing rock-paper-scissors with dice.

And like I said, Tyranids get lots of cheap useful stuff leaving a large bulk of your points to spend on fun units like Carnifexes and Mawlocs. If the core of your army is well built it's not that big a deal.

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Originally Posted by Tarinaky

The point is that you have to react to it. If you use your mobility to avoid the big hard hitters you can't use that mobility to do other things. If you use your big guns to take them out you can't use your big guns to take other things out...

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Except that it's not going to have enough of an effect to justify it's price tag. Making the enemy move can be accomplished easier and cheaper by other units, and isn't that valuable when most high-mobility armies go into a game fully expecting to move around a lot. It's also not going to happen until alter on in the game, as your Carnifexi have to actually slog all the way across the board before they can threaten the enemy into moving.

Most armies that can deal with them can either do it with a single unit, or in a single turn. That is not going to justify the amount of points you've spent.

Tyranids do get a lot of cheap stuff, but the effect is sort of in line with that. Even if it buys you an extra turn free from shooting, they can't win against a 1500 point army when they only have 1000 to play with.

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Originally Posted by Tome

single unit

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Not with shooting you can't.

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Originally Posted by Tarinaky

If you use your big guns to take them out you can't use your big guns to take other things out...

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Not really. Tyranids are a pure anti-mech army. Monstrous Creatures are effectively vehicles in regards to what gets shot at them. All the anti-tank stuff is going to hit the Carnifii anyway. No inefficiencies are going to occur.

It's like if I was to take a Land Raider in my 60-Scout army to draw anti-tank fire. It doesn't make any sense.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Not really. Tyranids are a pure anti-mech army. Monstrous Creatures are effectively vehicles in regards to what gets shot at them. All the anti-tank stuff is going to hit the Carnifii anyway. No inefficiencies are going to occur.

It's like if I was to take a Land Raider in my 60-Scout army to draw anti-tank fire. It doesn't make any sense.

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Except MCs don't behave like vehicles when they get hit. A vehicle can be taken out by a single anti-tank round. A MC hit by an antitank round hops shouting it's just a fleshwound.

No matter how well you roll it takes 12 lascannons to take down a Carnifex. It only takes 2 to take out an equivalent number of Land Raiders.

Monstrous Creatures are neither tanks or infantry and killing them requires volume of fire.

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Originally Posted by Tarinaky

I call bull.

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A list of single units that can probably take three Carnifexi:
Marines: Hammernators, Librarians
Grey Knights: Dreadknight, most of their Infantry
IG: Leman Russ Squadron
Dark Eldar: Half the Codex, thanks to having lots of Poison shooting and ID

Apart from Orks and Chaos Marines, everything else (Tau, Eldar, Blood Angels etc.) has the mobility to stay out of the way of the Carnifexi without really losing anything or can handily dispose of them with a single turn of shooting (Infantry Guard, Necrons, etc.).

EDIT

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Originally Posted by Tarinaky

No matter how well you roll it takes 12 lascannons to take down a Carnifex. It only takes 2 to take out an equivalent number of Land Raiders.

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Assuming it's IG doing the shooting, the number of Lascannons required to kill something in one turn:

Vs. 3x Carnifex: 0.5 Wound, 0.41666 Wound = 28.8 Lascannons

Vs. 2x Land Raider: 0.5 Hit, 0.08333 Penetrate, 0.02777 score a Wrecked or Exploded result = 72 Lascannons

The Land Raider will probably take far less to lock down, but it actually takes a fair number of Lascannon shots to properly destroy one.

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Originally Posted by Tarinaky

Monstrous Creatures are neither tanks or infantry and killing them requires volume of fire.

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Or weapons that invoke the Instant death rule without having to be high Str.

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Originally Posted by Tome

A list of single units that can probably take three Carnifexi:
Marines: Hammernators, Librarians
Grey Knights: Dreadknight, most of their Infantry
IG: Leman Russ Squadron
Dark Eldar: Half the Codex, thanks to having lots of Poison shooting and ID

Apart from Orks and Chaos Marines, everything else (Tau, Eldar etc.) has the mobility to stay out of the way of the Carnifexi without really losing anything.

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The Leman Russ squadron can't unless you take the variant with the gattling gun - which is completely useless in any other situation.

All the others do it through melee attacks - which are particularly susceptible to being buggered up by the rest of the army. Grey Knights can't handle hordes.

Hammernators are an equiv. price-point and even without support they'll both knock the stuffing out of each other.

Psychic powers and force wepons are... fickle to say the least against Tyranids.

I've no idea about the Dark Eldar.

Against Tau I'd go with the Hiveguard to take out their vehicles and use the, admittedly overkill, Carnifexes for area denial or mopping up survivors. You don't have to try very hard at all to beat the Tau these days, lets be honest.

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Originally Posted by Tarinaky

The Leman Russ squadron can't unless you take the variant with the gattling gun - which is completely useless in any other situation.

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You mean that having a couple of turns to put multiple S8, AP3 Large Blasts into a unit of Carnifexi isn't going to kill them? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Carnifexi only T6 Sv3+? Which would mean that, yes, they will be taking multiple wounds from each blast that hits their unit, and yes, they will not be getting any saves. With a couple of turns to blast away at them while they footslog across the board, I don't see the Carnifexi doing much beyond diverting a unit for a few turns.

The rest of the units on the list, yeah, do get screwed over by the rest of the Tyranid army. But an all-comers list is probably going to have them anyway, and with no other good targets to throw them at... Well, congratulations, your Carnifexi distracted a unit that was fairly useless against the rest of the army anyway.

Also, GKs being bad with hordes is a lie. They aren't as good in Assault versus hordes, but GKs are actually primarily a shooty army. And large volumes of mobile S5 AP5 firepower works pretty darn well against hordes. My GK list fails horribly though, what with being a pure for-fun list consisting of mostly Terminators. :smallbiggrin:

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Originally Posted by Tome

You mean that having a couple of turns to put multiple S8, AP3 Large Blasts into a unit of Carnifexi isn't going to kill them? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Carnifexi only T6 Sv3+? Which would mean that, yes, they will be taking multiple wounds from each blast that hits their unit, and yes, they will not be getting any saves.

The rest of the units on the list, yeah, do get screwed over by the rest of the Tyranid army. But an all-comers list is probably going to have them anyway, and with no other good targets to throw them at... Well, congratulations, your Carnifexi distracted a unit that was fairly useless against the rest of the army anyway.

Also, GKs being bad with hordes is a lie. They aren't as good in Assault versus hordes, but GKs are actually primarily a shooty army. And large volumes of mobile S5 AP5 firepower works pretty darn well against hordes. My GK list fails horribly though, what with being a pure for-fun list consisting of mostly Terminators. :smallbiggrin:

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3 demolisher cannons cannot inflict 4 wounds on a single model in a single turn.

But odds are good you'll scatter at least a little bit and not get the maximum number of wounds anyway and the way wound allocation works means this isn't quite as good as it sounds.

Plus pieplates are exactly the sort of weapon I don't want being fired at my gaunts.

We're also forgetting that MCs get move through cover and even space marines hide in the shrubberies in this Edition.

I've got a question about the use of stormravens. I've read the fluff for years, but am building an army for the first time (grey knights.) I'm planning on using stormraven for fast delivery of my tactical squads and terminators. I'm built it with the autocannon, heavy bolters, and hurricane bolters on the sponsons, reasoning that this set up will be effective at suppressive fire while dropping troops. Two questions, actually:

1. Is it tactically sound to use stormravens, or is there a better way?

2. Is the weapon loadout I've put on it workable, or should it be something else?

Thanks for any help.

P.S.- Any other rules of thumb out there in regards to GKs?

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Originally Posted by graymachine

I've got a question about the use of stormravens. I've read the fluff for years, but am building an army for the first time (grey knights.) I'm planning on using stormraven for fast delivery of my tactical squads and terminators. I'm built it with the autocannon, heavy bolters, and hurricane bolters on the sponsons, reasoning that this set up will be effective at suppressive fire while dropping troops. Two questions, actually:

1. Is it tactically sound to use stormravens, or is there a better way?

2. Is the weapon loadout I've put on it workable, or should it be something else?

Thanks for any help.

P.S.- Any other rules of thumb out there in regards to GKs?

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Stormravens are one of the few units that can fire at two different targets. Combined with the extra mobility I'd recommend giving them a Multimelta and an Assault Cannon.

I also wouldn't bother with the Hurricane Bolters as you can't use them when taking advantage of your speed (As a fast vehicle it can move 12" and fire 1 weapon, plus one more at another target for its special rules)
IGNORE ME I KNOW NOTHING

A lot of people ape the plasmacannon option though.

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Originally Posted by Tarinaky

I also wouldn't bother with the Hurricane Bolters as you can't use them when taking advantage of your speed (As a fast vehicle it can move 12" and fire 1 weapon, plus one more at another target for its special rules)

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Wrong. Hurricane Bolters are Defensive Weapons.

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Originally Posted by Tome

I know exactly what would happen if someone tried this on me. I'd run a single, 155 point Dreadknight with a Greatsword into them and stand good odds of wiping them all out before they even got to attack. 4 Attacks on the Charge, 3+ with Re-rolls to Hit, 4+ with Re-rolls to Wound, no Saves and a Ld 10 Force Weapon effect. Chances are good (2.666 wounds on average) that at least 3 of those attacks will produce Wounds, which means 3 dead Carnifexi. And I5 means that it's striking first.

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Force weapons don't work that way. You can only instant death one model a turn with a force weapon. You're also taking your test on 3d6 due to shadow in the warp since you're in melee range of a tyranid army. So you're killing at best 1 carnifex and then getting hit by 8 rerollable attacks that strike at S9 without allowing your 2+ save (which is the only thing that makes the dreadknight good by making him krak proof).

Are dreadknights I5 or 4? 5 sounds wrong to me from what I remember last time I killed two easily. Carnifexes with adrenal glands charge at I4.

Good luck charging your dreadknight into a unit of carnifexes with a wall of poisoned termagants in front of them.

Carnifexes are easy to kill but that doesn't mean everything works easily.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tome

Also, GKs being bad with hordes is a lie. They aren't as good in Assault versus hordes, but GKs are actually primarily a shooty army. And large volumes of mobile S5 AP5 firepower works pretty darn well against hordes.

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Large columes of S5 firepower? You're an over-priced tau army. Congratulations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tarinaky

3 demolisher cannons cannot inflict 4 wounds on a single model in a single turn.

But odds are good you'll scatter at least a little bit and not get the maximum number of wounds anyway and the way wound allocation works means this isn't quite as good as it sounds.

Plus pieplates are exactly the sort of weapon I don't want being fired at my gaunts.

We're also forgetting that MCs get move through cover and even space marines hide in the shrubberies in this Edition.

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Demolisher? I was talking the bog-standard Battle Cannon. And no, they can't deal 4 Wounds in a turn. But they don't have to. They have several turns to do it while your Carnifexi slog up the board. Unless we're talking a single-turn kill, in which case you have the whole rest of the IG army to chime in.

Diverting the pie plates is a good use for those Carnifexi, yes. It's about the only time where they'll actually be diverting firepower that might do something to the rest of your army, unless you still try and run Nidzilla. Which is a pity, because I actually like that sort of Nid list. But it just doesn't work right now.

Move Through Cover isn't actually worth that much. Cover still slows them, even if by slightly less. Dangerous Terrain is still Dangerous Terrain. Unlike Jump Infantry/Jet Bikes/Skimmers, who get to just ignore it for the most part.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

Force weapons don't work that way. You can only instant death one model a turn with a force weapon. You're also taking your test on 3d6 due to shadow in the warp since you're in melee range of a tyranid army. So you're killing at best 1 carnifex and then getting hit by 8 rerollable attacks that strike at S9 without allowing your 2+ save (which is the only thing that makes the dreadknight good by making him krak proof).

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*Flips through rulebook* Huh. Didn't know Force Weapons were limited to a single model a turn. I thought they ID'd anything they'd inflicted a Wound on.

*Flips through GK Codex* Which is actually what Nemesis Force Weapons do do when used by anything with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule.

Okay, this is weird. The wording of Nemesis Force weapons outright states that when used by a unit with Brotherhood of Psykers, all wounds caused become ID. The writing implies that all Wounds becoming ID is the default effect of a Force Weapon. And yet the rules in the main book for Force weapons, which it refers to, says it only applies to a single model.

*Check Errata* No, nothing in there. Huh. Weird. It's almost like the writer of the GK codex didn't know how the rules worked either, and just assumed that they could ID multiple targets as well... WAAAAAARRD!!! :smallfurious:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

Large volumes of S5 firepower? You're an over-priced tau army. Congratulations.

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Not really. Competitive Tau (or as competitive as they can get) is mostly Crisis Suits and Railguns backed by screens of Kroot and Piranhas. Competitive GKs are mobile, ultra-shooty marines who are can also assault fairly well. They also tend to stick to the midfield of 24" for their optimal range, as opposed to the Tau who prefer to be as far away as possible.

The two armies are very different in playstyle, don't be confused just because they put out a lot of firepower with similar stats.

Not that I'd know first hand. I don't go anywhere near competitive builds with my GKs. They're just for fun. (20 Terminators! All Deepstriking! Hilariously expensive mishaps all round!) :smallbiggrin:

Should I use terminators to hold victory conditions? It seems a sensible thing to do with them being troops choices.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by graymachine

I've got a question about the use of stormravens. I've read the fluff for years, but am building an army for the first time (grey knights.) I'm planning on using stormraven for fast delivery of my tactical squads and terminators. I'm built it with the autocannon, heavy bolters, and hurricane bolters on the sponsons, reasoning that this set up will be effective at suppressive fire while dropping troops. Two questions, actually:

1. Is it tactically sound to use stormravens, or is there a better way?

2. Is the weapon loadout I've put on it workable, or should it be something else?

Thanks for any help.

P.S.- Any other rules of thumb out there in regards to GKs?

---

A multimelta is prasctitcally designed for the stormraven. Turbo boost 24 inches, fire a twinlinked meltaz shot, wham, dead tank.

Assault cannon / mlutimelta is among the best configs that I've found but Multimelta / lascannon is also very effective.

The sponsons, firing at S4, are very useful but I can't honestly say I'd put the T/L Heavy Bolters even with Psybolt ammo, not when there's that lovely S8 AP 1 melta or a typhoon launcher to put on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tome

*Flips through GK Codex* Which is actually what Nemesis Force Weapons do do when used by anything with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule.

Okay, this is weird. The wording of Nemesis Force weapons outright states that when used by a unit with Brotherhood of Psykers, all wounds caused become ID. The writing implies that all Wounds becoming ID is the default effect of a Force Weapon. And yet the rules in the main book for Force weapons, which it refers to, says it only applies to a single model.

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Clearly brotherhood of psykers works differantly, but I would guess that dreadknights and other single models don't have that.

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Originally Posted by Tome

Not really.

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That was a joke. I prefer not to use smilies due to finding them obnoxious when other posters use them.

Now that we are starting to bring a new theme and leaving the tyranids cant beat mech behind.

I finaly got my hands in lots of new miniatures thanks of a fried who traveled to the USA. He wanted to start playing too so he bought the GK codex, a box of 5 gks, a box of 5 gk terminatours, a rhyno, a vindicare assasin and castellan crowe.

We want to make a viable list for him 1500pts we also have all the vainilla marines models from black reach and the sm battleforce to playtest in the meantime.

He wants to play crowe and fit as much purifiers as he can, he hates the idea of being shor in numbers. he wants to get into assault as soon as he can but stormraven wont grow on trees.

I want to convince him that a ryno/razorbak rush purifier list is not a bad idea. but he never played and since the rest of our gaming group plays eldar sam-hann, blood angel asault spam and tau suits. his only reasoning is "if i cant catch em i cant kill em so i wait to get shot to death"

Any sugestions of how to play GK vs mobible armys?
or any viable crowe+puris list?

well as far as the blood angels player goes, just wait for them to come to you. you don't have to worry about assaulting blood angels, they will do that for you. as for the eldar and tau players, why not focus on psycannons, dreadknights and las cannons. as someone mentioned before, the grey knights are a shooting heavy army. they rock in assaults, but they are just as deadly at long ranged combat. the good armor saves of the grey knights means that you will ignore most hits. i cant speak for eldar, but most tau AP 1, 2, and 3 guns are at most range 24", which means that if you're being shot at from that distance, then on the next turn, you can return fire with psibolt amo with deadly accuracy.