[3.5E] Hypothetical PHB Reconstruction

[Eldariel]

I'm asking this out of pure curiousity. Given the chance to design the PHB for 3.5 with the present material available but still being constrained by the size (say, 400 pages; adding all splat contents just isn't feasible), what material would you include in the PHB? I mean, when reading the splat material for 3.5, what things just make you think "It's really too bad they only thought of this now; this really belongs in the Player's Handbook"? What kind of structure do you think would be optimal?

What sparked me to ask this question was my own take on this; I really hoped skill tricks and ToB maneuver system (replacing the present classes with ToB-based classes, of course) had been available in the PHB. They really expand character building options and give alternative management systems that I feel are badly needed in the system; in core 3.5, every non-magical ability is a feat or a class feature. Skill tricks give cheaper "feat-like" abilities that cost less than actual feats, and thus can be more rarely applicable while still being worth picking, and maneuvers really expand the kinds of melee character concepts you can realize. I feel those two things would make most fantasy archetypes realizable in an interesting fashion with the given rules. I'm quite curious to hear what aspects others find so integral for the game that they'd have served players best from the PHB (since factum est that whether they like it or not, not everyone can acquire a bunch of splats to expand the game).

[kamikasei]

It's tricky to say. Most of the changes I would make to the core game for balance/fun are along the lines of replacing normal magic with psionics, or wizards with beguiler/dread necro/warmage-style focused casters, or (as you say) dropping in a maneuver system for melee classes. Much of that would pad out the text a lot.

What might be nice would be if you could split the PHB into a "character options" and "spell compendium" pair, so that all the spells, powers, maneuvers and such were in a handy reference and all the classes, skills, feats and options used to build a character are in the main text. It depends on how much space they'd take up in total.

One obvious and handy drop-in replacement is the shapeshift druid in place of the normal as the default core class. That, and perhaps adding the cloistered cleric in as an option, though not a replacement.

[TheCountAlucard]

What might be nice would be if you could split the PHB...

Unfortunately, that'd make it two books, and then they couldd charge $40 for each...

But, yeah, swapping out normal druid for shapeshifter variant doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. I'd be more concerned with organizing what's currently in there a little better.

[kamikasei]

Let's see, now.

There are 320-ish pages in the PHB, with spells taking up 120 of those.

The ToB is 120 pages for classes, feats and maneuvers, about 60 for just maneuvers.

Psionics is likewise about 120 pages for classes, feats and powers, 70 for just powers.

The section on binding and vestiges from Tome of Magic comes to 50-70 pages.

So if properly edited and structured, you could make a PHB that replaced the core game with a maneuver system for melee, a psionics-style augmentable point system form of magic, and vestiges for other magic for variety, and have it perhaps 50% longer for what is often cited as a fun, varied, and balanced set of options. It wouldn't be a simple task, though - you'd basically have to restructure the classes and how they interacted, reflavour a whole lot, and shuffle around the presentation and layout to reduce duplication and redundancy.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My idea of a balanced 'core':

None of the 'core' classes. For various reasons, either they are underperforming, or overperforming.

Add all three ToB classes. This gives you three good melee archetypes.

Add Warmage, Beguiler, and True Necromancer. This gives you three good arcane archetypes

Add in Shapeshift Druid, Favored Soul, and Cloistered Cleric (removing Divine Power and Righteous Might from the spell list). This gives you three good divine archetypes. Personally, I'd rather have something similar to the mechanics of the Warmage, Beguiler, and TN, but that's just me.

Now the problem is with the skillmonkey archetypes. Scout is one that is good, but I'm also wanting to see something similar to bard, but more on-par with these classes without needing PrC's to make it work right. Then we'll need a third skillmonkey archetype. At first, I was thinking 'swashbuckler', but that can be covered, better, with Swordsage. Perhaps some kind of assassin? This is really where the D&D system breaks down and has fits.

[Draz74]

Now the problem is with the skillmonkey archetypes. Scout is one that is good, but I'm also wanting to see something similar to bard, but more on-par with these classes without needing PrC's to make it work right. Then we'll need a third skillmonkey archetype. At first, I was thinking 'swashbuckler', but that can be covered, better, with Swordsage. Perhaps some kind of assassin? This is really where the D&D system breaks down and has fits.

Factotum is what you're looking for.

Swordsage is a perfectly good assassin archetype. Also, you're probably selling the good ol' Rogue short. It's just as good a class as Scout, if you just add in the Penetrating Strike alternate class feature from Dungeonscape. (And if the Scout can't do a Swift Hunter multiclass with Ranger.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hmmm... maybe I'm underestimating, since most of the other classes have a skillmonkey type in them. So, here we go at a revision of the above:

Combat Archetypes
Crusader (Defender)
Warblade (Assault)
Swordsage (Skill)

Arcane Archetypes
Warmage (Assault)
Beguiler (Skill)
True Necromancer (Debiliating)

Divine Archetypes
Shapeshift Druid (nature-based)
Favored Soul (diety-based)
Archivist (skill)

So in each of the archetypes, you have one skill-based class.

Combat Archetypes are those who want to get into physical combat. Crusaders are awsome tanks, particularly with their ability to soak damage. Warblades can dish out some insane damage. Swordsages are definitely a skill-based class.

Arcane Archetypes are those who manipulate raw arcane magical forces to produce effects. Warmage is blasty. Beguiler is skillmonkey. True Necro is just... gross.

Divine Archetypes are those who receive power from faith or belief. Shapeshift druids draw their belief from Nature. Favored Souls have the blessing of a divine being. Archivists study and research the divine.

[Tacoma]

I'd have the three basic classes (Warrior, Caster, Sneak) and just include feats for the other class abilities. Want a Paladin? Take levels in Warrior and then a couple in Adept, take the feat for Lay Hands, etc. Monks become just unarmed Warriors with the right feats. This removes 3/4 of the class section.

Adepts are either Arcane or Divine. All spells are Arcane, Divine, or Dual (meaning either caster type can learn them). Other than spell selection there are no game effects. No big table of domains. Deities are purely roleplaying.

Cut out the spell lists by class, replaced by an Arcane list and a Divine list. This cuts that pagecount about in half.

Remove alignment from the game. Remove all spells and magic items referencing alignment and replace it with a non-specific effect with a lower bonus because it affects everyone. This may make it redundant.

Remove all the "damage of X with type Y in area Z" spells and replace them with one single-target spell and one area-spell per level. The default energy type is Fire. But you can learn it as a different type instead, so a Fireball can instead be a Shockball or Iceball.

Alternative: replace all existing spells with a spell creation kit and a bunch of examples. You don't need higher-level versions of spells that exist at low level because the extrapolation is simple. No need to actually write out a "Greater Dispel" spell because it's just like Lesser Dispel with a higher caster level maximum. This could cut out almost all the 100+ pages of spells.

Remove almost all the stupid weapons, like the Mercurial Sword and the Fullblade, etc. Narrow the weapon tables down to "size A type B" so you'd have something like:
Small Blade (Dagger, Kama)
Small Cleaving (Hand Axe)
Medium Crushing (Club, Mace)
Large Piercing (Spear)
And all Large Piercing weapons have the same statistics (damage, critical, weight, etc).

Simplify combat mechanics and just mention that various alternative rules like Attack of Opportunity and Grapple are present in the DMG.

In the DMG, remove all the NPC classes. All you need is Commoner (or whatever you'd call it) and assume that the only difference between a true commoner and an aristocrat is the skills they choose and what family they were born into (as is true in real life).

Those big tables that give pregenerated NPCs of each class are now just for the three base PC classes and the one NPC class.

Remove the "magic items" that are really just items made from special materials. Keep the materials, but don't waste space going through the motions to list the details for each item made of that material.

In the MM, snip the monster descriptions enough to get one monster plus illustration per page. Real-life creatures can get by without an illustration if the next or previous is also without illustration (so you can get two on that page).

[kamikasei]

We seem to have gone from "how to rearrange the best of 3.5 into a standalone PHB" to "design an alternative 4th edition".

[Starscream]

First of all, I'd include the rules for swift and immediate actions. Nearly every splatbook had to explain those at the beginning just because they thought of it a little too late.

I would include skill tricks.

I would also include alternate class features. The more customization the better.

I would add the Ninja, Scout, Factotum, Swashbuckler, and Dread Necromancer classes.

I would make Orcs, Goblins and Kobolds core races (and maybe improve them a tiny bit for balance)

If I really need to take something out (i.e. I can't fit all the additions in the 80 pages I have to spare), I'd remove the Equipment chapter and put it in the DMG instead. I've always felt that mundane items and magic items should be kept in the same book, and while it doesn't need to be the DMG, keeping them together will make looking up items more streamlined.

[horseboy]

Hmm, well in addition to throwing in some class and weapon fixes I think one of the biggest things missing in the PHB is a section of Role Playing. This is the book for the FNG. So a deeper section on character motivation, and a couple pages on backgrounds (including oh, say 20 questions you should know the answer for, for your character) and working with your DM..

The DMG, however needs to be completely gutted. That was the biggest waste of $25 I've ever spent, well, maybe except SR4. Again, since this is an FNG book, you have big sections on "How to start and run a campaign", "Consequences of yours and the player's choices", "How to establish a Theme and Mood for your campaign", "Neat things they never taught you in Sociology 101" (Consequences of common magic, aka Tippyverse), and AkaBait's guide to being a good DM. The CR and WBL "systems" would be completely gone, not just because grey mobs piss me right the hell off, but because they're dependent on each other. In their place would be notes on "High Magic" and "Low Magic" campaigns, their pros and cons of each and what to be aware of.

[Tacoma]

Starscream: The designers assume the players each bought a PHB and the DM bought a MM and a DMG (and probably also a PHB). We don't want every player to have to trot out a DMG whenever they use a different weapon or go shopping for caltrops.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

We seem to have gone from "how to rearrange the best of 3.5 into a standalone PHB" to "design an alternative 4th edition".

Only with decent numbers, rather than touting an 'epic' game as one in which a character who is specifically designed to hit things has trouble hitting things which are 'appropriate' encounters for him, half the time.

[Tacoma]

Note that a bottle of vodka is an "appropriate encounter" and yet they still have trouble hitting it.

[Zeful]

I'm asking this out of pure curiousity. Given the chance to design the PHB for 3.5 with the present material available but still being constrained by the size (say, 400 pages; adding all splat contents just isn't feasible), what material would you include in the PHB?

There isn't much I've found that would be good to add on it's own without almost a complete rewrite. I've never played with Swift and Immediate actions but they are a good way to separate actions with "really small amounts of time" with non-actions that "take no time", so I'd probably include them.

I'd rewrite the definitions of the Schools (and subschools) of magic, because some of them later got things that seemed to go against the school as written (Orbs of X for example, and Melf's Acid Arrow, all of these really should either be Evocation or Conjuration/Evocation) or didn't make much sense (the shadow subschool for instance, how do magic shadows make things solid?).

I'd probably steal some class features and tack them on to existing classes (Martial disciplines for example) then burn some things in front of their designer because they are stupid (Celericy should have never been written, and the Assassin shouldn't be EVIL because they kill people for money (which most adventurers do as well and aren't necessary evil) for example) but again some things (my 20th level barbarian can break the olympic running long jump record standing still, but can't stand up to one spell cast by an 16th level wizard?) need a full rewrite to fit the theme of higher level play.

[Tacoma]

Oh god, I was so disappointed at D&D for messing up the spell schools. They felt that Evoker and Transmuter were too powerful because they got a lot of good spells, so they started giving away spells into Conjuration and Abjuration, tossed in a bunch of Necromantic, and made a lot of Divination spells whose spell effects make more sense as Enchantment.

Now not only are they still somewhat unbalanced, there's no way to tell what school a spell is in by its description. Which is just downright lame.

"This spell shoots fire"

Well son that's gotta be Evocation there. Creates a short-duration energy attack. Nope! It's probably Conjuration or Alteration!

(Maybe even Water)

[Prometheus]

I'd put gnomes in it, for one thing.

[Oslecamo]

(my 20th level barbarian can break the olympic running long jump record standing still, but can't stand up to one spell cast by an 16th level wizard?)

Well, it's your own fault for spending all your gear, feats, skills and levels to improve your jumping ability while neglecting the rest of your character. It's not the system's fault if you build your character to be a super jumper and then it can't shoot atomic anti magic lasers from his eyes.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Magic items would be a useful, though space-hogging, inclusion.