Finally the four words! (spoiler)

[Cúchulainn]

Ohhoho no, this isn't going to end well if what starts it is a post containing a dictionary entry. If you two don't pipe down I'm turning this thread right around and no one is getting ultimate arcane power!

[Kaytara]

Ohhoho no, this isn't going to end well if what starts it is a post containing a dictionary entry. If you two don't pipe down I'm turning this thread right around and no one is getting ultimate arcane power!

Pipe down? But we've been so civil...

Optimystik, why are the implications irrelevant? From a storytelling point of view, why would Rich have the Oracle refer to four words and not three if the first word does not play any role there and could be omitted without impacting the meaning or the effect?
If the "being" is really supposed to be V, why mention it at all?

[Amplify]

Does anybody have a link for the prophecy comic? It happened so long ago now that I've forgotten the details.

[magic9mushroom]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

[HandofShadows]

Put me in the NOT the Four Words catagory. The words being said made no difference in V's gaining power (V could have stayed silent and still touched the orb to accept) and they where not actually said to anyone. V was thinking out loud, not coversing.

[Sotris]

So, if V had said "must succeed... Must succeed", would it still be four words? What if he had said "succeed" four times? Sorry, but this sounds weak. If Rich wanted to, he could have V say something like "I have to succeed", and make it less ambiguous.

I think we are simply watching the "wrong reasons" being established in this strip, but not the four words. I could be wrong of course, and those might in fact be the words, but I still think it's weak.

[Optimystik]

Optimystik, why are the implications irrelevant?

Because the most important part of any literary prophecy is its wording. For it to be effective, it must come to pass exactly as written. "Four words" it states; not "four different words," "four words of equal import" or even "four words in the middle of a long speech." Just four words.

But let's assume you're correct, and that all 4 words have to be meaningful. That brings me to your next point.

From a storytelling point of view, why would Rich have the Oracle refer to four words and not three if the first word does not play any role there and could be omitted without impacting the meaning or the effect?

The Oracle's wording is simply explained: because the Oracle looked ahead to the future and saw that V said exactly 4 words before trading his soul away.

As for Rich's reasoning, I disagree with you that repeating the "I" lacks any meaning or dramatic effect. The repetition displays noticeable hesitation on V's part; he knows he's about to do something horrible and is genuinely afraid of it, but more afraid of what will happen if he doesn't. That's powerful storytelling to cram into a 4-word sentence.

Compare his reluctant attitude there, at the threshold, to his behavior when the fiends first arrived. "Give me what I require NOW! There is no time left!!!" The change is remarkable, and truly hammers home that he's about to SELL HIS SOUL, an act with repercussions far beyond the piddling price they extract from their end of the bargain.

If the "being" is really supposed to be V, why mention it at all?

Two reasons:

1) So that the exact 4 words moment would be unambiguous. The "being" clause was the number one snag in the "Disintegrate Gust of Wind" theory, for instance. (Well, number two snag... number one was the lack of arcane power that resulted from Kubota's death.)

2) To underscore the fact that the decision to sell his soul was ultimately V's and no-one else's. The fiends put it best: "The whole sell your soul thing? 100% your idea. We're just service providers." They could tempt V, seduce him, make him lust for the power and fear for his family all at the same time; but in the end, the one person who finally convinced Vaarsuvius... was Vaarsuvius.

V hasn't said any other 4 words that captured all of these things at once. We're looking at the Real Deal.

[rxmd]

To the OP: I salute you, Captain Obvious!

People will think anyway that there's something worth discussing here.

[Mut]

The thing that makes me doubt here is that the Oracle's prophecy made it sound like the four words would be the cause of V gaining ultimate arcane power, and that's not the case here. V isn't gaining power by means of saying "I... I must succeed", but merely while saying it.

The strip title is certainly intended to make us think this is the moment, but it wouldn't be the first time that Rich has played games with forumite expectations.

Here's the thing about the title: "wrong" is beautifully ambiguous. It could also mean that these are the wrong "wrong reasons".

Personally I'm still leaning on this being the actual fulfillment -- no matter which way you slice it, Vaarsuvius is set to acquire ridiculous arcane power. But there are enough little niggling things (like the ones you mentioned) that don't quite sit right that I'm not sure, y'know? If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say there are still some crucial scenes to come where V has internal discussions with those three souls and things do not go as smoothly as initially anticipated...

Edit: fixed markup error.

[Animefunkmaster]

The comic name, however, is. And all of the elements click into place like clockwork.

Right four words "I... I must succeed."

Right being: Herself.

Right time: One second before the Time Stop ends (this is the real clincher).

Wrong Reasons: for self-satisfaction, not for saving her family after all.

The wrong reasons sure, but not really to the right person or the right time. She didn't have to say those words in order to make her choice (which in turn means those 4 words didn't lead her to ultimate arcane power). The words are for the reader's benefit.

I think the 'Disintegrate, Gust of Wind' theory is stronger, as it leads to this choice. Much the same way Belkar giving the ring of jump to Roy killed Roy.

[Fitzclowningham]

[QUOTE=SPoD;5841092]"How will I achieve" can be interpreted to mean "in what manner will I achieve" instead of "what is the cause of me achieving." I.E. a description of the circumstances, not of the cause.

I think I disagree with this as a possible interpretation of the Oracle's pronouncement. V asks a "how?" and is answered with a "by...". The Oracle might have answered the question "while wearing a hat", which would have described incidental circumstances rather than cause(s). But by starting with "by", the Oracle is clearly indicating the means of V's ultimate arcane attainment.

[kusje]

The wrong reasons sure, but not really to the right person or the right time. She didn't have to say those words in order to make her choice (which in turn means those 4 words didn't lead her to ultimate arcane power). The words are for the reader's benefit.

I think the 'Disintegrate, Gust of Wind' theory is stronger, as it leads to this choice. Much the same way Belkar giving the ring of jump to Roy killed Roy.

I agree that those are not the four words.

But Belkar killing Roy did not happen. Even the oracle admits it was a stupid argument.

[Kaytara]

Optimystik, while I agree with you that the stammer possibly served the purpose of additional dramatic value, the prophecy still reads to me as if saying the words is supposed to be important.
How often, in real life, do you try to convince yourself to do something by talking to yourself out loud?
Even if you argue that Vaarsuvius used those words to convince himself to do it and wouldn't have done it without them, it's more or less irrelevant if V had said those words aloud or just thought them, or just stood there for a moment frantically trying to decide.
So the words are still far less important than the prophecy makes them sound.

Also, "he convinced himself to accept this power" still doesn't count as "achieving" something, IMO. The only way I could see this work is that Vaarsuvius has been trying to gain more power in order to contact Haley throughout the whole arc, and that obsession eventually led him here. But that's still a far cry from achieving something by deliberately working toward that end and finally attaining it by the means you predicted and planned for.

On top of it, if we take the prophecy word-for-word as you suggested, not ALL of V's reasons were "wrong". Saving his family is still a major motivation. V has shown us in the past that he's entirely aware that making a deal with the devil is a bad, bad idea. If a Deus Ex Machina had saved V's family at this very moment and V had become aware of it, he likely would've flat out refused, power or no power, because his initial motivation for making such a deal would be gone.
Of course, one could argue that "all the wrong reasons" is simply a figure of speech and is not to be taken literally and simply means that SOME of V's reasons are wrong. But if we do that, we need to assume the same can be true for the rest of the prophecy's phrasing.

The problem is that the exact phrasing of the prophecy created certain expectations, expectations that apparently many of us feel the comic has failed to live up to. The four words sounded like they'd be an important and crucial declaration to a certain being, and they end up a hesitant stammer that V says to himself as a form of pep talk, or thinking out loud. The power sounds like it should be, well, complete and ultimate, but here it's riddled with ifs and buts. One could argue that even the restriction on the use of Wish, one of the most useful spells, is enough to render the description of "complete" as inapplicable.
Add to that the various other little nuances I listed that make this development vaguely unsatisfying and anticlimactic, and maybe you can see why I am sceptical of this.

[Alair]

I agree that those are not the four words.

But Belkar killing Roy did not happen. Even the oracle admits it was a stupid argument.

No, the oracle argued it was a valid fulfillment, just an unconvincing one.

And technically the phrasing of Belkar's "Will I get to kill any of the following-" prophesy leaves open the possibility of Belkar being responsible for the deaths of more than one of the people he listed.

Myself I still think "Disintegrate, Gust of Wind" were the four words but... well, these work too. I certainly like them more than any suggestion of "I accept your offer!" to some demon prince or "Wrong reasons" involving the Oracle being a die-hard dragon-loyalist.

[Kish]

Anyone who doesn't think those are the 4 words and make threads stating as much I will strangle with my own two hands.

And if each person on the forum made a thread stating the same thing, the mods would kill those people.

...Sounds like we're all doomed.

[DigoDragon]

So... that's it huh? We got the four words now? We can move on to the theories of Belkar dying and then call it a day?

[dish]

So... that's it huh? We got the four words now? We can move on to the theories of Belkar dying and then call it a day?

*Reads thread* Umm, no? There is a general concensus that these are the four words, but some of us are still not entirely satisfied, and thus, not 100% convinced due to:
- three words, with one repeated.
- V is speaking to hirself, not another being.
- the words do not signify the gaining of power, but only the thought process that leads up to touching the orb.
- this seems limited for "complete and total ultimate arcane power".
- is it really for all the wrong reasons, or just *some* of the wrong reasons?

It niggles, but then, oracles are notoriously tricksy. (And we're notoriously nit-picky.)

[Kish]

5) Rich has gone out of his way to lampshade the idea of V's prophecy getting fulfilled soon. "I need more power!" "Magical power beyond your wildest imaginings!" "The Wrong Reasons". This is, of course, purely a matter of opinion, but I doubt Rich would give us a neon-sign warning like that if this were the real thing.

...You're seriously arguing that the strip wouldn't indicate the prophecy was being fulfilled if the prophecy was being fulfilled.

Well, then there we have it, 'cause from where I'm sitting, it would take (will take) Word of God from Rich for it to get any more clear-cut than this.

Now one of three things will happen.
1) Rich will post on this forum, "Yes, those were the words." Arguing over whether those were the four words will s-l-o-w-l-y simmer down, starting at the point when he posts that.
2) Rich will write in the next book that those were the words. Arguing over whether those were the four words will s-l-o-w-l-y simmer down, starting at the point when the next book comes out.
3) Rich will never directly address the matter. Arguing over whether those were the four words will not truly cease until the comic itself has ended. One of the last posts on this forum will be, "Wait a minute, why did Vaarsuvius' prophecy never come true?"
4) (Remote) Rich will write in a subsequent book, but not the next book, that those were the four words. Etc.

[Cúchulainn]

Spoiler

Show

Optimystik, while I agree with you that the stammer possibly served the purpose of additional dramatic value, the prophecy still reads to me as if saying the words is supposed to be important.
How often, in real life, do you try to convince yourself to do something by talking to yourself out loud?
Even if you argue that Vaarsuvius used those words to convince himself to do it and wouldn't have done it without them, it's more or less irrelevant if V had said those words aloud or just thought them, or just stood there for a moment frantically trying to decide.
So the words are still far less important than the prophecy makes them sound.

Also, "he convinced himself to accept this power" still doesn't count as "achieving" something, IMO. The only way I could see this work is that Vaarsuvius has been trying to gain more power in order to contact Haley throughout the whole arc, and that obsession eventually led him here. But that's still a far cry from achieving something by deliberately working toward that end and finally attaining it by the means you predicted and planned for.

On top of it, if we take the prophecy word-for-word as you suggested, not ALL of V's reasons were "wrong". Saving his family is still a major motivation. V has shown us in the past that he's entirely aware that making a deal with the devil is a bad, bad idea. If a Deus Ex Machina had saved V's family at this very moment and V had become aware of it, he likely would've flat out refused, power or no power, because his initial motivation for making such a deal would be gone.
Of course, one could argue that "all the wrong reasons" is simply a figure of speech and is not to be taken literally and simply means that SOME of V's reasons are wrong. But if we do that, we need to assume the same can be true for the rest of the prophecy's phrasing.

The problem is that the exact phrasing of the prophecy created certain expectations, expectations that apparently many of us feel the comic has failed to live up to. The four words sounded like they'd be an important and crucial declaration to a certain being, and they end up a hesitant stammer that V says to himself as a form of pep talk, or thinking out loud. The power sounds like it should be, well, complete and ultimate, but here it's riddled with ifs and buts. One could argue that even the restriction on the use of Wish, one of the most useful spells, is enough to render the description of "complete" as inapplicable.
Add to that the various other little nuances I listed that make this development vaguely unsatisfying and anticlimactic, and maybe you can see why I am sceptical of this.

Spoilered for length. Anyway I agree with you, to a point. I believe that was the prophecy and it's over and done with, but at the same time the doubts are quite logical, if not perhaps irrational. But heres the thing: V has achieved ultimate arcane power. No no, it doesn't matter what you define it as, what I define it as, what Opti defines it as; as long as V believes that is what he has achieved through the splice, then that is it. Those were the 4 words, those were all the wrong reasons, that was the right person, no ifs and/or buts.

V believes the splice is ultimate arcane power at this very moment. IF sometime in the future V starts having doubts, or IF after the splice it is not what he thought to be ultimate arcane power, then and only then can there be doubts about the subject. Until then there is nothing that would convince us who think it was the fulfillment of the prophecy otherwise, making discussion on it pointless.

And if each person on the forum made a thread stating the same thing, the mods would kill those people.

...Sounds like we're all doomed.

I'll always treasure the time I spent wading through text walls and smiling at your bemused posts.

3) Rich will never directly address the matter. Arguing over whether those were the four words will not truly cease until the comic itself has ended. One of the last posts on this forum will be, "Wait a minute, why did Vaarsuvius' prophecy never come true?"

I...I feel weary...I have to go to bed now...

[busterswd]

I'm not fully convinced they're the four words (his question was "how" he would gain arcane power, not when or why, and the words weren't actually the means, just the justification), but will suggest a happy medium for those who are still doubtful:

Until the comic reveals a point where V actually says a different 4 words leading to a great(er) or more permanent increase in arcane power, just treat this as the fulfillment. Everything fits.

Also even though I'm in the "strangle me please" camp I also definitely think that if this situation isn't it, it will be coming VERY soon. If it doesn't, these words will be it.

[Optimystik]

Optimystik, while I agree with you that the stammer possibly served the purpose of additional dramatic value, the prophecy still reads to me as if saying the words is supposed to be important.

It was. Both times he reached for that orb, he felt the need to speak, to reassure himself that he was in fact pursuing the logical course of action.

You seem to be hung up on the fact that the sequence of events was "words-> do something -> arcane power" rather than simply "words -> arcane power". I can't fathom why you think the gesture somehow invalidates the words that were spoken. Most magic spells have both verbal and somatic components, but the presence of hand motions does not rob the words of their import or their meaning. The same is true here.

How often, in real life, do you try to convince yourself to do something by talking to yourself out loud?

How often in real life do you sell your soul? V is at this moment the suicide jumper on the side of the bridge, who reinforces his own resolve by saying aloud how cruel the world has been and how much better off he will be without it, and it without him. He is thoroughly frightened by what he is about to do, and must justify it to himself if he is to go through with it.

Even if you argue that Vaarsuvius used those words to convince himself to do it and wouldn't have done it without them, it's more or less irrelevant if V had said those words aloud or just thought them, or just stood there for a moment frantically trying to decide.
So the words are still far less important than the prophecy makes them sound.

I still say you're wrong about this. Had he said nothing at all, or kept his monologue internal, we would have strong doubts about whether he'd thought his decision through before touching the blue orb. Hell, with no words he could have tripped and caught himself on it, or even gleefully grasped at the chance to abandon his 'humanity' for power. We wouldn't know.

A soliloquy is different - it reveals unambiguously what a character is really thinking in a way that even their facial expressions can't. At once the words revealed V's reluctance, eagerness, hesitance and ambition. For just 4 words (3 different ones!) that is a masterful feat.

Also, "he convinced himself to accept this power" still doesn't count as "achieving" something, IMO. The only way I could see this work is that Vaarsuvius has been trying to gain more power in order to contact Haley throughout the whole arc, and that obsession eventually led him here. But that's still a far cry from achieving something by deliberately working toward that end and finally attaining it by the means you predicted and planned for.

You're mistaken on what he convinced himself of. V's thoughts weren't on what he could do with the power at that point - they were on his own role in what was to come. Lee put it best (paraphrased): 'even if plan B worked, it would be because of Aarindarius and Durkon, not you. You'd be a failure - again.' He wasn't thinking of finding Haley, stopping the dragon, not even saving his family anymore - just of losing.

On top of it, if we take the prophecy word-for-word as you suggested, not ALL of V's reasons were "wrong". Saving his family is still a major motivation. V has shown us in the past that he's entirely aware that making a deal with the devil is a bad, bad idea. If a Deus Ex Machina had saved V's family at this very moment and V had become aware of it, he likely would've flat out refused, power or no power, because his initial motivation for making such a deal would be gone.

Of course, one could argue that "all the wrong reasons" is simply a figure of speech and is not to be taken literally and simply means that SOME of V's reasons are wrong. But if we do that, we need to assume the same can be true for the rest of the prophecy's phrasing.

Saving his family isn't his motivation; HIM saving his family with HIS POWER, is.

You're correct that he would refuse the splice in the event of a Deus Ex, but for the wrong reasons (see the theme? ). It's not because his family would be safe, but because such un-looked-for assistance would allow him to keep his pride intact. His family is strictly secondary at this point.

The problem is that the exact phrasing of the prophecy created certain expectations, expectations that apparently many of us feel the comic has failed to live up to. The four words sounded like they'd be an important and crucial declaration to a certain being, and they end up a hesitant stammer that V says to himself as a form of pep talk, or thinking out loud. The power sounds like it should be, well, complete and ultimate, but here it's riddled with ifs and buts. One could argue that even the restriction on the use of Wish, one of the most useful spells, is enough to render the description of "complete" as inapplicable.
Add to that the various other little nuances I listed that make this development vaguely unsatisfying and anticlimactic, and maybe you can see why I am sceptical of this.

The 4 words being a hesitant stammer is entirely the point. He shouldn't sound bold and sure of himself; even pinned under an angry dragon with no magic, he had more of a spine than he does now. It is here, on the cusp of his attainment of magical ability that mortals can barely fathom, that V is at his weakest; and that is exactly why his soul became easy pickings for the experienced fiends.

As for the Wish restriction, he imposed that himself. Complete and total Arcane power is what he wanted, and it's exactly what he's getting; he never said anything about Divine power.

I'm sorry if you're not satisfied; I and several others are having a blast. And as Kish predicted, the light-show after the words pretty much clinches it.

[Trebuchet]

The trouble as far as I see it is, "I...I must succeed," contains three words, one of which is repeated. It is not clear-cut and unambiguous, and I'm sure Rich is aware of that being a fantastic word-smith and all.

True, but "To be or not to be" is clearly 6 words, though two are repeated. If someone said, "No, no I won't" to a request, I'd still call it 4 words.

The repeating was due to a hesitation and second thoughts, which makes sense given how wrong this is, and therefore these words show doubt turning into determination. This tiny stuttering sentence is a journey in itself, and the stuttering shows the choice in the process of being made better than "I must not fail" or "I have no choice" or any complete sentence.

The fact that it is ambiguous, well, this is Vaarsuvius.

[Warren Dew]

V has finally said the right 4 words -- "I ... I must succeed." to the right individual (zirself) for all the wrong reasons (unwilling to admit weakness).

I don't think that makes sense. If "unwilling to admit weakness" were the wrong reasons, then "I must succeed" would be the wrong words, not the right ones.

For them to be the right words for the wrong reasons, the reasons must be unrelated to the words - something like "well, Vaarsuvius thinks the pact will mean success, but in fact that's mistaken, and the pact won't help at all".

[Gez]

The thing that makes me doubt here is that the Oracle's prophecy made it sound like the four words would be the cause of V gaining ultimate arcane power, and that's not the case here. V isn't gaining power by means of saying "I... I must succeed", but merely while saying it.

V is gaining power as a result of convincing himself that he has to accept the fiends' offer, and he does so by saying the right words (that he must succeed) at the right being (himself) and the right time (it was now or too late) for the wrong reasons (pride).

They are the right words because they're what manage to truly convince him. That they convince him for the wrong reasons is not an issue.

[Porthos]

*reads thread*
*re-reads thread*
*fights back urge to bawl like a baby*

I'm strongly considering changing out my sig for the first time in a LONG time:

Belkar is Chaotic Evil. Still.
So is Thog for that matter.
Miko fell because she comitted an evil act.
Belkar only caused the death of The Oracle, and no one else.
"I... I must succeed." were the Four Words.

Really.

I mean, I know I shouldn't be surprised that I was right when I posted up thread about this not settling things. After all, this is a board that actually spent a couple of months debating whether or not Miko fell by committing an evil act, or for "merely" grossly violating her code.

I learned then and there that if the board could tie itself up in knots over that debate, it'll debate anything. The continual, and eternal, debate over Belkar's Alignment, is simply an ongoing proof of my theory.

Sigh. Oh well. Maybe I'll be lucky and this will be more a Miko Falling thing (a relatively brief but intense discussion) rather than a Belkar Alignment Thread (which keeps popping up, no matter what Rich does in the strip).

[Silverraptor]

"I...I must succed"

V was trying to decide. He had to convince himself that pride was better than the alternative. The extra "I" was him unsure. It is extremely important in the combination of the 4 words. When I reread this comic, I put myself in V's shoes and pretended to say them out loud in the same way. That extra I was needed to give the boost on accepting the deal for your own pride.

These Are The Four Words. Take it or leave.

[Neithan]

We could also wait two or three days and see if there are any goof four words.

[Kaytara]

You present a convincing case. While I still feel that the original prophecy gives the wrong impression about the manner in which it will be fulfilled, perhaps that is, all things considered, exactly the point. Along with the idea that UAP was initially considered a positive achievement, rather than a tragic, terrible fall, the prophecy not being fulfilled the way it first seemed (and the way V expected) could very well be keeping within the theme of things.

[The_Void]

1) So that the exact 4 words moment would be unambiguous. The "being" clause was the number one snag in the "Disintegrate Gust of Wind" theory, for instance. (Well, number two snag... number one was the lack of arcane power that resulted from Kubota's death.)

1) V disintegrating Kubota directly led him to argue with Elan and then fly off on his own, leaving him powerless when the ABD turned up and forced into the deal with the demons.

2) OK, so V didn't say the words to Kubota, but he said them at him, which sort of counts.

Still, I don't think they're the words in question. It's definitely the ones in the new strip.

[Sequinox]

Originally posted by Dish
The trouble as far as I see it is, "I...I must succeed," contains three words, one of which is repeated. It is not clear-cut and unambiguous, and I'm sure Rich is aware of that being a fantastic word-smith and all.

^From the 'Finally the Four Words' thread.

I really liked the comic, and at first I thought, 'Hey! The four words!' But then I realized that, as Dish said, the Giant is a much better writer than this, and this probably isn't the four words. Are they coming up soon? Mehbi.

What I think is happening here is that the Giant is messing with our heads.

Bravo, Rich. I thought I was so far out that that couldn't happen.