Erfworld 144 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 131

[workmad3]

I hardly think staying 'moral' is a concern for Parson atm. He is meant to be the perfect warlord (both due to the spell cast, and the indication on the back of his luckamancy charms :)) and part of that is picking the best tactics for certain scenarios.

As he knows Ansom is obliged to capture him, it makes sense to exploit that with a treacherous surrender. It gets Ansom, and the arken pliers with their advantage to uncroaked (a critical part of his available troops atm) out of the way for a while. By putting it at the top of the tower, it means only flying troops can reach it (the RCC at the city don't have many flying troops, so not many will be there, apart from the Archons). It means Ansom can't assault the dungeons with the rest of his troops. It could even mean that Ansoms troops are divided as he believes the warlord is in the tower so logic would dictate some of his primary troops are as well.

It makes sense on so many levels to betray a surrender as it could make it a win for Parson again (or at least let him survive through the turn). If he gets through the turn, then Stanley will probably get back with the dwagons. This will happen before the archons can move (they are allied with RCC atm, so can't move till his turn) unless the archons break alliance with the RCC and render their contract void (meaning the RCC could kill parson and get the artifact, which charlie wouldn't like). Parson also knows that even with a betrayal like this, Ansom is still bound to capture him to fulfil the contract, so it hasn't put a dent in his future. The only minor problem is the 'questionable' morals of such a betrayal, and I don't think Parson is caring much about that atm (he's getting over the guilt of having to send people he knows and likes into situations that could kill them. I doubt betraying his main enemy will get much extra guilt on top of that) and besides, he has his 'sword of ruthlessness +X' as well.

So, long rant... sorry if I've repeated any points others have made, and to sum up I think my point is 'morality can go jump off a cliff if it gets in the way of winning a war', or the alternative of 'the winners decide the morals of the war' :)

[TheTurnipKing]

I also find it quite interesting that the Archons could apparently see through the veil with apparent ease.

Charlie does seem to have a tremendously formidable fighting unit at his disposal. I wonder what checks and balances they have?

[Starwaster]

As he knows Ansom is obliged to capture him, it makes sense to exploit that with a treacherous surrender. It gets Ansom, and the arken pliers with their advantage to uncroaked (a critical part of his available troops atm) out of the way for a while. By putting it at the top of the tower, it means only flying troops can reach it (the RCC at the city don't have many flying troops, so not many will be there, apart from the Archons).

No.... the 'pliers are not at the top of the tower. They're in the air and will soon land in the courtyard.

Other than having a troll's meaty mitts wrapped around his throat, this situation isn't much different than the last time he got disarmed and dismounted. Except that the 'pliers will be much closer to him when they stop moving.

[Ragn Charran]

That, and this time Ansom may completely stop moving, if you know what I mean.

Remember, I said may, not will.

[Decius]

The last time Ansom took a big fall, he broke the hard protective thing sitting on top of his neck. I think he will take similar damage this time.

Only this time, he no longer has a helmet. It's the little things that make a difference sometimes.

[Lamech]

Also he's falling a good bit more. And Parson is ready for it. And he will already be damaged. So Ansom is much less likely to survive this fall.

To paraphrase decius: Ansom cracked a protective thing around his brain last time. That would cause... problems.

[Sieggy]

Hmmm . . . Y'know, when Ansom left Wanda laying on the ground before, as he was flying off, the Archons there seemed deep in conversation . . . I wonder if they realized that Wanda just might be able to attune to the pliers? They were close enough to overhear the exchange between Ansom & Wanda, and they seem pretty intelligent. If they didn't pick up on it, Charlie most likely would have.

If so, I can really see Charlie deciding that being able to acquire (in addition to Parson and HIS artifact) the Arkenpliers as well as a caster attuned to them would be a Really Good Thing, and would increase their desireability to him very greatly. Since he's quite sure that he's going to walk away from all this the winner, letting Wanda get her hands on them would be a no-lose thing for him. The worst that could happen is she doesn't, and if she does, all Charlie has to do is wait for the uncroaked to rot away before engaging if thing go sour.

Bear in mind that we know that the contract included Parson and the bracer, but what if the contract was ACTUALLY for ALL casters and magic items captured? Which now looks like it would include the Arkenpliers . . . After all, Wanda and Sizemore have demonstrated great skill and courage, and from a merc's POV, casters with combat experience would be a great asset.

This ups the ante considerably - if he plays his cards right, he gets a warlord who can think outside the erfbox complete with artifacts, another caster who is attuned to one of the arkentools complete with said tool, and maybe a couple of other casters as well. With that kind of payoff, I can see Charlie deciding that Ansom is . . . disposable.

So, if the RCC wins, he gets them all as spoils. If they win, he's in a position to congratulate them, and then offer them all jobs. And if they decline, well, the Archons will still be able to recover the artifacts from their smoldering bodies . . .

[Lamech]

This ups the ante considerably - if he plays his cards right, he gets a warlord who can think outside the erfbox complete with artifacts, another caster who is attuned to one of the arkentools complete with said tool, and maybe a couple of other casters as well. With that kind of payoff, I can see Charlie deciding that Ansom is . . . disposable.

I'm sure thats what he thinks. But that simply isn't happening. Parson will simply send the casters too the magic kingdom, along with those pliers, and the eyebooks and the scrolls. He can have maggie tell the tool, that the casters have fled with the pliers and they should meet up in the magic kingdom. Charlie is getting nothing other than Parson, but its not Charlie's fault he doesn't know of the portal.

I also think greed is blinding him too. What if Wanda attunes to the pliers? What if the coalition stabs him in the face? What if Stanley van de graffs his Archons? What if the air defenses can be reloaded over a the course of a few turns? These are questions he should be asking, but I don't think he is.

[CaptC]

The fact of the matter is that only losers are ever punished for "war crimes". You can get away with practically any atrocity as long as it leads to VICTORY.

For the most part, Fishman, you are correct. But its certainly not always true, and it's becoming less true. William Calley would certainly argue your premise. And while Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir is in no danger of a military defeat, he is currently indicted for war crimes.

But regarding what started this conversation: A double-cross during a truce is hardly an atrocity. I don't think equating the two is accurate. Only enemy combatants are at risk. No civilians were injured or killed. Everyone had a weapon and was prepared to use it.

Given mankind's history of REAL atrocity, Parson's ruse is hardly mentionable. Might as well complain about the morality of German armored trains while combatting partisans in World War II, or the use of Allied Q-ships while combatting U-boats. Both were masquerades of helplessness, intended to draw your targets into a fight against hidden armed troops.

[Sieggy]

I'm sure thats what he thinks. But that simply isn't happening. Parson will simply send the casters too the magic kingdom, along with those pliers, and the eyebooks and the scrolls. He can have maggie tell the tool, that the casters have fled with the pliers and they should meet up in the magic kingdom. Charlie is getting nothing other than Parson, but its not Charlie's fault he doesn't know of the portal.

I also think greed is blinding him too. What if Wanda attunes to the pliers? What if the coalition stabs him in the face? What if Stanley van de graffs his Archons? What if the air defenses can be reloaded over a the course of a few turns? These are questions he should be asking, but I don't think he is.

Sure, the best laid plans and all that . . . though I think Charlie expects all this to be over and done with by the end of next turn.

But escaping may be one of Charlie's blind spots - he can't conceive that a warlord would care that deeply for the forces under him. It's not a 'gamer' thing to do . . . He may not realize that Parson, coming from a different world, feels a personal sense of responsibility for those he commands and sees them as more than just units for whom he has more than a passing fondness. Remember, when Jaclyn croaked, Charlie was pretty cavalier about it.

And BTW, what's to prevent Parson from escaping as well? Parson may still owe Charlie some battlecalcs, but he can get those in the MK as easily as GK. Assuming Ansom survives, if they take him to the MK, they can always ransom Ansom back to Jetstone for enough schmuckers to get by for a while. If not, Wanda has a really cute valet/whipping boy who works really cheap and never complains.

Charlie's in the same boat as the RCC when it comes to Stanley - he's the proverbial fly in everyone's ointment. Even though this is a turn-based reality, Stanley will still have to cover a lot of distance if he's going to get back next turn. Which means that there's a distinct possibility that Parson will have cleaned house, gotten cleaned and escaped, or negotiated a truce. Even Parson has no idea what Stanley's status is right now, other than he's not dead.

I'm assuming that after the turn / day ends, Parson will have enough sense to try to contact Jack once more. If he does, then once Parson has some idea of how long it'll take Stanley to get back, they can work out a strategem.

If I were Parson, I'd raise all the uncroaked I could, pack the dungeon and tunnels, and then invite the RCC to come on in and play . . . just stretch his turn out as long as he can, get the RCC troops into a bottleneck, and wait for Stanley to show up and buttboop them all. Or wait until it's hopeless, and escape to the MK. Since they (hopefully) think Parson is dead along with Ansom, they will assume his bonuses are all gone, and may decide that they have anough forces to win.

I doubt very seriously that Charlie will send his Archons into any kind of structure much less a dungeon or tunnels infested with uncroaked, though they could assault the tower from the upper levels. But if they're engaged with supporting the RCC forces trying to take the remaining zones, they're not going to be checking six, and the Archons will have their cute li'l butts hanging out in the air (literally) when Stanley shows up. It's hammer time . . .

[Starwaster]

Earlier today, I had this thought... remember the Tamarians in ST:TNG? Who spoke only in metaphors?


"Ansom, when the troll fell."

[elrod13]

Another point about Parson "violating a parley": Luckamancy charms provided RUTHLESSNESS. If Parson initiated the actions of Bogroll, that is certainly ruthless.

[pendell]

Given mankind's history of REAL atrocity, Parson's ruse is hardly mentionable. Might as well complain about the morality of German armored trains while combatting partisans in World War II, or the use of Allied Q-ships while combatting U-boats. Both were masquerades of helplessness, intended to draw your targets into a fight against hidden armed troops.

Not sure I agree. I see it more along the lines of abuse of the white flag, which is a step above a Q-ship or an armored train. Along the lines of running up a flag, yelling you want to surrender, then opening up with a machine gun when gullible enemy soldiers come out to accept it.

Hard to surrender for real after that.

IIRC, that was a real problem in the Pacific during WWII. Japanese soldiers had a tendency to fake surrender, then blow themselves up with a grenade when an enemy got close. It made the war in that theatre a good deal more vicious than it absolutely had to be.

I grant it's not the Katyn forest, where hundreds of helpless prisoners were shot down in cold blood, but a bit more than an ordinary ruse, in my view.

Hmm .. I'm not sure the Q-ship was such a great idea in any event. It requires the enemy submarines to observe the pre-war Cruiser rules, in which a submarine surfaces and attempts to force a ship to stop and evacuate the crew before sinking the now-unmanned ship. The German solution to this problem, IIRC, was simply to shoot without warning. And so a lot more sailors drowned than had to for minimal military gain.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Onmi]

No one has brought up the idea that maybe Parson DOESN'T want to surrender after this, sure it may hurt his ABILITY to surrender, but thats worthless since surrendering in Erfworld isn't like real life, your side all dies (or mostly dies)

So yes it may hurt his chances at surrender? but so WHAT?

[pendell]

Erfworld isn't like real life, your side all dies (or mostly dies)

Remind me again exactly what strip these rules were specified in? I know that Jillian became a barbarian when her city was conquered.

Raises a question.

Why is there even a surrender mechanism, if it has the same impact as if the other side killed everyone?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Starwaster]

Remind me again exactly what strip these rules were specified in? I know that Jillian became a barbarian when her city was conquered.

Raises a question.

Why is there even a surrender mechanism, if it has the same impact as if the other side killed everyone?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I don't even think that's necessarily true. I think that a lot of folks here are taking certain things for granted and misinterpreting others.

[ishnar]

Remind me again exactly what strip these rules were specified in? I know that Jillian became a barbarian when her city was conquered.

Raises a question.

Why is there even a surrender mechanism, if it has the same impact as if the other side killed everyone?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Truly there is a difference between genocidal war where people surrender out of despair and accept their death because they are too weary to fight anymore and a political or resource war where a surrendering fighter has a reasonable expectation of survival. If someone surrenders knowing it means death, they are not honor bound to stick with it. The only reason they surrendered is despair, all they need is a glimmer of hope or enough anger to compel them to stand up and fight again.

To me, a Jew that surrendered to the Holocaust is not honor bound to meekly accept the terms once confronted with them.

I remember a story about a gladiatorial fight, Nero or Caligula was the one watching, and two groups were fighting. I can't remember the numbers or the types of fighters anymore, but I do remember that one side was heavily outnumbered and eventually forced to surrender. They knelt down hoping for mercy but the Emperor called for their deaths.

So rather than just accepting their fate, instead they stood up and attacked the force that still heavily outnumbered them, and won. While my first reaction was to root for these underdogs, the Roman reaction, as expressed by the emperor was horror. The emperor said something like, How unfair! To snatch away a victory and turn it to defeat.

I can't remember if the outnumbered guys were Romans or not. Sigh, sorry, memory too fuzzy and it would take a lot of research to pin this one down.

[Suicide Junkie]

Remind me again exactly what strip these rules were specified in? I know that Jillian became a barbarian when her city was conquered.

Raises a question.

Why is there even a surrender mechanism, if it has the same impact as if the other side killed everyone?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The leadership and casters do have some possibility of surviving as a captured unit.

Parson would definitely be captured, since that is required by Charlie. Wanda would almost certainly be croaked, given Ansom's chat with her. Sizemore's outlook doesn't look good after what he's done, but Maggie isn't well known.
Still, I don't think I'd want a very low loyalty *thinkamancer* ... poking in my brain and handling communications. :)

As for the rest of the units, they're definitely not worth the trouble. They can't flee the city; no move, and it is surrounded anyways. The RCC certainly isn't going to pay their upkeep out of the goodness of their hearts.
RCC could let them out to wander the wilderness until they starve from lack of upkeep, perhaps, but that isn't any better.
Croaking or disbanding is the only future for them, sadly. Nonexistence; good as death, but at least it should be less painful than getting stabbed by an eager elf.


Thus the expectation that only Parson would survive a surrender.

[MattR]

I wonder if Thinkamancers aren't considered good candidates for capture because of their abilities and the low loyalty factor.

If Parson could flee to the magic kingdom why wouldnt Stanley use that route?

Is there only one official entrance and exit to the magic kindom... i.e. can you only use it to appear in your own capital. or is it possible to use the magic kingdom as a shortcut through to an ally's capital?

Does it cost move to enter the magic kingdom or move around inside it?

[Lamech]

Does it cost move to enter the magic kingdom or move around inside it?

It does cost move to walk around in the magic kingdom. Panel 7, wanda used move looking for Sizemore. It does not cost move to use the portals. Panel 5, we see someone move on GK's turn.

Is there only one official entrance and exit to the magic kindom... i.e. can you only use it to appear in your own capital. or is it possible to use the magic kingdom as a shortcut through to an ally's capital?

Maybe... but I doubt the magic kingdom would be happy about it, even if it was possible. And since the magic kingdom has predictamancers you would probably get caught.

[djharr]

I dunno . . . I've alway though a great movie plot would be the classic 'Evil Genius has device that will blow up the world' meme, where the EG has the Hero helpless and ready to be killed, and the Hero does the obligatory "but before you kill me, I just want to know . . .". To which the EG replies "ummmm . . . no." and kills the Hero.

I see Rowan Atkinson as the lead . . .

I am surprised no one has mentioned the evil overlord list, which covers just these situations. A couple of my favorites:

I will see to it that plucky young lads/lasses in strange clothes and with the accent of an outlander shall REGULARLY climb some monument in the main square of my capital and denounce me, claim to know the secret of my power, rally the masses to rebellion, etc. That way, the citizens will be jaded in case the real thing ever comes along.

and

I will not grow a goatee. In the old days they made you look diabolic. Now they just make you look like a disaffected member of Generation X.

and my VERY personal favorite

If I have children and subsequently grandchildren, I will keep my three-year-old granddaughter near me at all times. When the hero enters to kill me, I will ask him to first explain to her why it is necessary to kill her beloved grandpa. When the hero launches into an explanation of morality way over her head, that will be her cue to pull the lever and send him into the pit of crocodiles. After all, small children like crocodiles almost as much as Evil Overlords and it's important to spend quality time with the grandkids.

Lots more great stuff where that came from. Check it out.

David

[SteveMB]

If Parson could flee to the magic kingdom why wouldnt Stanley use that route?

Parson specifically mentions sending the casters to the Magic Kingdom if they get overrun. That gives me the impression that only casters can use the portals.

[Murderous Hobo]

I'm thinking that when Bogrol and What's His Name reach the bottom of the tower, they aren't just going to hit the ground. I expect that Sizemore will tunnel up, letting them and the pliers fall into the Dungeons.

[MattR]

Parson specifically mentions sending the casters to the Magic Kingdom if they get overrun. That gives me the impression that only casters can use the portals.

That question was aimed more at Sieggy who said:

And BTW, what's to prevent Parson from escaping as well? Parson may still owe Charlie some battlecalcs, but he can get those in the MK as easily as GK.

[Oslecamo]

I'm thinking that when Bogrol and What's His Name reach the bottom of the tower, they aren't just going to hit the ground. I expect that Sizemore will tunnel up, letting them and the pliers fall into the Dungeons.

WOW! Actually, this seems like a brilliant idea! Bogroll isn't just in a suicide attack! He's actually handing the pliers to Wanda and capturing Ansom in one single move!

Fantastic logic! I'll be very admired if this isn't what happens in the next comic.

[DoctorJest]

Maybe... but I doubt the magic kingdom would be happy about it, even if it was possible. And since the magic kingdom has predictamancers you would probably get caught.

yeah, but there's a good chance they may just "flake" and forget to stop you. :-)

[hajo]

exactly what strip these rules were specified in? I know that Jillian became a barbarian when her city was conquered.

You might want to read klog#12 about a city going neutral, units disbanding, etc.

Jillian is a warlord and was heir to faq, no ordinary unit.

[Sieggy]

That question was aimed more at Sieggy who said:

Given that the Portal Chamber looks exactly like the Transporter Room in Star Trek (classic), I would think that once the portal is open, anyone can walk through. And it may not even need a caster, just some guy in a red shirt to activate the controls . . .

[ishnar]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the evil overlord list, which covers just these situations. A couple of my favorites:

I will see to it that plucky young lads/lasses in strange clothes and with the accent of an outlander shall REGULARLY climb some monument in the main square of my capital and denounce me, claim to know the secret of my power, rally the masses to rebellion, etc. That way, the citizens will be jaded in case the real thing ever comes along.

and

I will not grow a goatee. In the old days they made you look diabolic. Now they just make you look like a disaffected member of Generation X.

and my VERY personal favorite

If I have children and subsequently grandchildren, I will keep my three-year-old granddaughter near me at all times. When the hero enters to kill me, I will ask him to first explain to her why it is necessary to kill her beloved grandpa. When the hero launches into an explanation of morality way over her head, that will be her cue to pull the lever and send him into the pit of crocodiles. After all, small children like crocodiles almost as much as Evil Overlords and it's important to spend quality time with the grandkids.

Lots more great stuff where that came from. Check it out.

David

Someone did write a story somewhere where the main character was an Evil Overlord that used the Evil Overlord List as her mission statement. I never saw it myself, but I did see a reference to it somewhere.

[Soup of Kings]

WOW! Actually, this seems like a brilliant idea! Bogroll isn't just in a suicide attack! He's actually handing the pliers to Wanda and capturing Ansom in one single move!

Fantastic logic! I'll be very admired if this isn't what happens in the next comic.

'Twas also posited on the first or second page, IIRC. Doesn't make it less brilliant, just less original.

I say Wanda uses a Stuffamancy scroll that summons a big comfy cushion, Ansom and Bogroll land on it. Parson comes out into the courtyard and apologizes for being mean and they all eat cake and live happily ever after.

^_^