[3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

[ErrantX]

That's never one I've seen enforced. It must be a playstyle thing, as I've never had a problem with anyone taking as many PrC's as they wanted, though if fluff is important in a particular game, they at least have to come up with a cogent reason why they have X PrC when everything else seems to fit Y or Z for R levels. Beyond that, have at it.

To ErrantX though, the fact that it would be a hard choice between springing for that last point of BAB at the expense of 9th level spells is a pretty good indicator it's even balanced enough for a moderate power game. The fact that I had to ponder whether I'd go ToB with Bladesinger or Speed Freak with Swiftblade means it's also balanced on the upper end of the spectrum. Ironically it was the combination of synergy and defense that tips the scales for the Bladesinger, as there are few ways to utterly do away with an AMF with the former. It's a single maneuver for a Bladesinger, which also fits the elven theme of superior understanding of magic (and yes...flame away, I'm an elf player).

I tried to make it so that unless you were careful with your levels at least a little bit, you'd be forced between 4th attack or 9th level (it's easily possible to get both tho). I'm pleased to find this has a place up there with Swiftblade.

Note: Made a small revision to the entry requirements for the class; something I had meant to do. Changed it from being able to initiate a 2nd level maneuver (which, technically meant anyone over 6th level who wasn't a martial adept fit that bill) to someone who has one 2nd level maneuver, and any one stance.

-X

[KellKheraptis]

Also of note, about that revision (and this is for anyone who read this and instantly thought it was overpowered), is that requiring a 2nd level maneuver almost ensures a one level dip in the middle of a casting progression. JPM is similar, but only requires a strike (or two, one must be a strike, forget which), which means any scrub can take a level 1 maneuver and call it a day. You pretty much assure anyone going all the way will have 3 levels not progressing casting, which for most wishing to play a bladesinger, is fine. As I said, it was a hard call between which I'd choose between this and Swiftblade. And honestly, after thinking about it and mulling over a build, I'm tempted Sunday to ask the DM if I can adapt my wizard to the entry of this class (and given the build skeleton is centered on entering Warblade at 10 and Bladesinger from 11 on, the only difference to the character would be the words on the sheet, as all other stats would be identical, or have yet to see play). I'll let you know how it plays, once we get that far, assuming of course the DM is cool with it.

[ErrantX]

You could just go 4 levels of wizard or whatever and then get the warblade level, the half levels from the other class will count towards IL and let you snag higher level maneuvers. Just careful level planning is needed.

Edit: Do you think the revision to the requirements was a right move? I see a good entry of the class being Wizard 6 / Warblade 1 / Bladesinger 10 / Abjurant Champion 4.

-X

[KellKheraptis]

You could just go 4 levels of wizard or whatever and then get the warblade level, the half levels from the other class will count towards IL and let you snag higher level maneuvers. Just careful level planning is needed.

Edit: Do you think the revision to the requirements was a right move? I see a good entry of the class being Wizard 6 / Warblade 1 / Bladesinger 10 / Abjurant Champion 4.

-X

That's a good build for the class regardless, as would it be if you subbed out Bladesinger for JPM. The reason the revision makes it a little more balanced is that the warblade dip pushes back 4th level spells by a level. That's significant. Your study of martial arts delays gaining shapeshifting ability (well...outside your own type at least, the big one), a BIG gish staple.

EDIT : Put another way, whether you go for Wizard 6 and use feats to meet the maneuver requirements or dip an initiator class, you're still well away from being an Incantatrix abusing Circle Magic, and well away from casting Su Miracles. Strong, definitely. Optimizable, for sure. Overpowered, not even close.

[Cieyrin]

That's never one I've seen enforced. It must be a playstyle thing, as I've never had a problem with anyone taking as many PrC's as they wanted, though if fluff is important in a particular game, they at least have to come up with a cogent reason why they have X PrC when everything else seems to fit Y or Z for R levels. Beyond that, have at it.

The problem I see more isn't so much multiple PRCs as it is with cherrypicking/dipping into multiple PRCs, which I find more commonly people take issue with. It's just that picking up multiple classes for a level or 2 rubs some DMs and players the wrong way that smacks to them of powergaming, which has led to more than one horror story that ruins it for so many of us who aren't abusing it in all the wrong ways that ruin campaigns.

And honestly, after thinking about it and mulling over a build, I'm tempted Sunday to ask the DM if I can adapt my wizard to the entry of this class (and given the build skeleton is centered on entering Warblade at 10 and Bladesinger from 11 on, the only difference to the character would be the words on the sheet, as all other stats would be identical, or have yet to see play). I'll let you know how it plays, once we get that far, assuming of course the DM is cool with it.

Oh noes, more melee madness in our crazy little campaign? I'll have to step it up a couple notches, then, now shant I?

[KellKheraptis]

The problem I see more isn't so much multiple PRCs as it is with cherrypicking/dipping into multiple PRCs, which I find more commonly people take issue with. It's just that picking up multiple classes for a level or 2 rubs some DMs and players the wrong way that smacks to them of powergaming, which has led to more than one horror story that ruins it for so many of us who aren't abusing it in all the wrong ways that ruin campaigns.

Oh, I know what caused it. The irony is that it's that kind of knee-jerk reaction that generally leads to WAY worse balance offenses. Personally, as I've stated before, that's a "I'm Lord Tippy now, give me your notes and DM screen" offense in my book :P But then again...I do wear a black hat proudly

Oh noes, more melee madness in our crazy little campaign? I'll have to step it up a couple notches, then, now shant I?

Yay, a 'Hood on ToB-crack and a Shock Trooper Reckless Rager! More like show the other barbarian how it's done. The rogue would most likely enjoy having another meat shield, though I won't be joining the front lines til a little later.

EDIT : And to think, after Heartfire Fanner, you'll be able to Battle Jump and Leap Attack too!

[Drolyt]

The problem I see more isn't so much multiple PRCs as it is with cherrypicking/dipping into multiple PRCs, which I find more commonly people take issue with. It's just that picking up multiple classes for a level or 2 rubs some DMs and players the wrong way that smacks to them of powergaming, which has led to more than one horror story that ruins it for so many of us who aren't abusing it in all the wrong ways that ruin campaigns.



Oh noes, more melee madness in our crazy little campaign? I'll have to step it up a couple notches, then, now shant I?

Well, yeah it's the dipping that is the problem. When I DM I do sometimes allow multiple PrCs, but it has to make sense for the character, and I think dips make very little sense fluff wise most of the time. Actually I would ban dipping outright (save for special cases) but melee classes need it to not suck.

[Cieyrin]

Yay, a 'Hood on ToB-crack and a Shock Trooper Reckless Rager! More like show the other barbarian how it's done. The rogue would most likely enjoy having another meat shield, though I won't be joining the front lines til a little later.

EDIT : And to think, after Heartfire Fanner, you'll be able to Battle Jump and Leap Attack too!

Show the rogue true damage potential, too, really, given he doesn't seem to be doing too much optimization with that 6-shooter and his mob of hounds.

[/threadderail]

[Drolyt]

Show the rogue true damage potential, too, really, given he doesn't seem to be doing too much optimization with that 6-shooter and his mob of hounds.

[/threadderail]

Right, to get back on track, this PrC gets bonus feats. I never thought that was a terribly good idea, could they be replaced by minor abilities?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I've glanced over this a few times, but I'm just now getting into the thick of it. I must say, it looks much better than the original, and outside of Combust shenanigans, I would prefer this over JPM.

That said, time to go through this bad boy, level by level.

Hit Die: d8

Requirements:
Race: Any humanoid with the (Elf) subtype.
BAB: +4
Skills: Balance 2 ranks, Concentration 8 ranks, Jump 2 ranks, Perform (sing) 2 ranks, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, Tumble 2 ranks.
Feats: Combat Casting, Dodge, Weapon Finesse
Maneuvers: Must posses one maneuver of 2nd level and one stance of any level.
Spellcasting: Must be capable of casting 1st level spells.
Special: Other races may become bladesingers if they are considered ruathar.

This all seems in order. The special mention of the ruathar qualifying for this is nice to see, as not everyone out there is willing to play an elf (myself, included sometimes). Dodge kind of hurts as a required feat, but at least Desert Wind Dodge is an option here.

Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex)
Skill Points per Level: 2 + Intelligence modifier.

Skills seem to be in order. 2+ is a shame, but, eh, most gish classes are.

Bladesong Style (Ex): At 1st level, when wielding a bladesong weapon (see below), a bladesinger gains a dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to his class level, up to a maximum equal to his Intelligence (if a prepared caster) or Charisma (if a spontaneous caster) bonus. When wielding any of the following weapons: longsword, shortsword, dagger, shortspear, scimitar, or rapier in one hand (and nothing in the other), a spear (two-handed) or any elven racial weapons, a bladesinger may add his Intelligence or Charisma (depending the previous choice) modifier to damage when wielding those weapons in addition to his Strength bonus, if applicable. When wielding the previously listed weapons, he may treat them as if they were light weapons for the purpose of Weapon Finesse. If the bladesinger wears medium or heavy armor or a shield, he loses all benefits of the bladesong style.

At 5th level, the bladesinger gains a competency bonus to his Balance, Jump, Perform (dance), and Tumble checks equal to half of his bladesinger level.

If the bladesinger gains spellcasting from a bardic tradition, then he may add his bladesinger level to his bard level to determine the number of bardic music attempts he gets as well as his Inspire Courage ability.

This has been improved over the original. However, I would change the benefits being dependent not on how you cast but on the stat that you need to cast. This way, the class becomes more friendly to Duskblades and Beguilers, as both are Int-based spontaneous casters. The fifth level ability here is a little lackluster, but, hey, you've got maneuvers, too!

Spellcasting:*snip*

Seems in order. Much better than what it once was, comparable to the JPM. Not much else to say.

Maneuvers: At every level except 3rd, 4th, 7th, and 8th, a bladesinger gains new maneuvers known from the Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and White Raven disciplines. You must meet a maneuver's prerequisite to learn it. You add your full bladesinger levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known.
At 3rd, 6th, and 9th levels, you gain additional maneuvers readied (and granted, if applicable) per day.

Now, this, I like! Desert Wind seems kind of odd to me, but the other three are certainly solid. It's really just a personal taste, to be fair.

Stances Known: At 3rd level, and again at 8th level, you learn a new martial stance from the Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and White Raven disciplines. You must meet the stances prerequisites to learn it.

The placing on stances seems odd to me. Going Caster 6/Martial Adept 1/Bladesinger 3 means you get access to a stance at as a 7th level Initiator, but that leaves only 3rd level stances. Similar issues at Bladesinger 8, but two levels in Abjurant Champion would solve that.

*Shrug* I'm probably over thinking it, but it's certainly better than the RKV's and JPM's stance progressions.

Spellsinger's Stance (Ex): At 2nd level, the bladesinger learns to adopt a stance based upon the bladesong style of fighting. This stance may only be used if the bladesinger is fighting in the bladesong style. While in this stance, the bladesinger gains a +2 perfection bonus to AC during a turn when he casts an arcane spell, and while in this stance casting arcane spells does not provoke attacks of opportunity. In addition, as a move action the bladesinger may attempt to sing his spell to increase the potency of his spell by making a Perform (sing) check. The next spell he casts gains a perfection bonus to his caster level according to the table below.

{table=head]Perform Check Result|Caster Level Increase
9 or lower|+0
10 to 19|+1
20 to 29|+2
30 or higher|+4[/table]

Bardic bladesingers may spend one use of their bardic music ability to use this ability with a +5 competency bonus. (This ability does not stack with the Sublime Chord's ability to increase caster level through song, as this song requires the bladesinger to fully focus on this song.)

I bonus to CL is nice, the AC boost, so-so. I love the possibility of combining this with Strike of Celerity, but then I realize that this requires a move action. However, considering that this is a near full casting/martial adept PrC, it's probably fine, but damn if I don't like to shuffle with my move actions.

I am glad to see the Bard getting some love out of this, though.

Evasion (Ex): *You know what this does.*

Saving you 25000 GP and a ring slot! Also putting your good Ref save to use! Initially a little odd to see, but I'm not complaining. Evasion is just kind of nice to have sometimes.

Strike of Celerity (Ex): At 4th level the bladesinger learns a signature strike of the bladesong fighting style which enhances his arcane prowess. By making a standard attack action or a full attack action with his blade, the character is able to cast a spell simultaneously, allowing him to Quicken the use of one arcane spell of up to 4th level without an increase to the spell's level. At 8th level, this improves to 6th level arcane magic. To use the Strike of Celerity, the character must be fighting according to the bladesong style. This is a 4th level strike and is readied as such, just like any other maneuver.

This may just be me, but I would like to see this actually made into a maneuver, just for ease of reading and to help clarify of the variable initiation time. Do I have to initiate it as a full attack or can I perform one attack, see if the d00d I hit drops first? This probably needs a discipline to it, too.

Battle Tempo (Ex): The rhythm of combat sings through the form of the bladesinger, his every step a beat, his weapon's movements yet another. This rhythm allows the bladesinger's strikes faster progression at the cost of accuracy. On a full attack action, the bladesinger may make an extra attack at his full base attack bonus at the cost of a -2 penalty to all attack rolls for the round.

If the bladesinger possesses the bardic music ability, he may spend one bardic music use to gain a second extra attack at the same penalty above.

Not much, but I like it. Being a full caster, the penalty may or may not mean anything to you. Giving Bards the extra option is good, too.

Bonus Feat: At 6th level and at 9th level, the bladesinger may select a bonus metamagic feat or a feat from the following list: Acrobatic, Acrobatic Strike, Agile, Athletic, Blade Meditation, Blind-Fight, Bounding Assault, Combat Reflexes, Desert Fire, Dodge, Evasive Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Ironheart Aura, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Quick Draw, Rapid Blitz, Run, Song of the White Raven, Spring Attack, Unnerving Calm, White Raven Defense.

For simplicity, I would almost just say "...select a bonus metamagic feat, a fighter feat, or one from the list below." Instead of waht is currently there. Even so, there are still at least two solid options in there.

Bladesong Master Stance (Ex): The pinnacle of the bladesinger's art, the bladesong master stance allows for the character to gain the benefits of both the Spellsinger's Stance and any single Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, or White Raven stance that he knows. In addition, while in this stance, the bladesinger gains a +10ft bonus to his base speed and may take 10 on Tumble checks.

Now, this, I like. Not quite a true dual stance, but it's certainly nice to leave your options open. You may wish to add that you can take 10 on Tumble checks even when threatened, as that will surely be the case when needing to roll Tumble.



Overall, really well done. Giving the Bard some love with this is nice with or without Sublime Chord thrown into the mix. Props.

[jiriku]

Mmm, caught a minor item here. You're requiring Dodge as a prerequisite, and also adding it to the list of available bonus feats. Best to delete it from the bonus feat list and replace it with something else, perhaps Combat Acrobat (PH2) or Mobile Spellcasting (CAdv).

[ErrantX]

Mmm, caught a minor item here. You're requiring Dodge as a prerequisite, and also adding it to the list of available bonus feats. Best to delete it from the bonus feat list and replace it with something else, perhaps Combat Acrobat (PH2) or Mobile Spellcasting (CAdv).

It was Desert Wind Dodge in there, and I only deleted the Desert Wind portion of it, my bad. Fixed.

@Drolyt:

I tried thinking of something to put in those spaces, but I really couldn't come up with anything, so I placed bonus feats there to shore up the class's capabilities for metamagic and make up for some of the prerequisite feats later; i.e. rewarding people who don't dip it by giving them their feats back basically.

@ThriceDeadCat:

Thank you for such an indepth review! I will clarify the Strike of Celerity as an actual maneuver as that's what it is; it's readied as a 4th level maneuver. I will try to address some of the other points you came up with, such as in bladesong style. I will fix that.

EDIT: Made edits to Bladesong Style and to Strike of Celerity. Fixed the bonus feat list to remove Dodge and added Mobile Spellcasting.

-X

[Thrice Dead Cat]

It was Desert Wind Dodge in there, and I only deleted the Desert Wind portion of it, my bad. Fixed.

Actually, and this may sound silly, but leave the bonus feat option as "Dodge." As is, someone could qualify with Midnight Dodge or Desert Wind Dodge. By leaving it as Dodge as a possible bonus feat, then they still have the option to take one of those two feats instead. At least, if I recall correctly.

Thank you for such an indepth review! I will clarify the Strike of Celerity as an actual maneuver as that's what it is; it's readied as a 4th level maneuver. I will try to address some of the other points you came up with, such as in bladesong style. I will fix that.

-X

Welcome. It was rather enjoyable seeing what you did with it.


As for thoughts on what to do either to replace or in addition to the bonus feats, you may want to adapt Song of Fury, as well, as I noticed that was missing. Not sure what I'd do with it, but I may as well throw that out there.

EDIT: Just realized that Battle Tempo is effectively Song of Fury.

[Cieyrin]

I had another look at this, as I wanted a little inspiration for a PRC I'm working on, and I had a minor thought on allowing Ruathar to get in. Rather than just saying "if Ruathar, then allowed," say instead Ruathar of 3rd level, as, at least for me, I'm liable not to encourage cherrypicking. It's cool to let others in, sure, but, on the other hand, they should invest a little to get that privilege for not being an Elf in the first place. They're not overly suffering for it, either, as Ruathar offers full casting, among other things. Plus, it'd give something a bit nicer than the RPish cap ability of extending your lifespan.

It puts it on the same level as Stoneblessed, I be thinking, and gives the PRC a bit more value.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

EDIT: Also, on Battle Tempo, is the bonus attack from using Bardic Music an additional -2, so 2 extra attacks at -4, or do you just get an additional attack at the same penalty, so 2 extra attacks for -2 overall?

[ErrantX]

As far as Ruathar is concerned, I'm totally fine with someone dipping 1 level and getting into the class; you're an elf friend already. Going all three in that class is totally worth it anyhow. That and I dunno, I don't feel right requiring a set level in another PrC to get into mine, ya know?

Tweaked the wording on Battle Tempo. That look better?

-X

[Cieyrin]

Battle Tempo is definitely clearer than it was, so I got no qualms on that.

As for Ruathar, perhaps if you think dipping 1 level should be sufficient to get in, maybe the problem is less with Ruathar and more with Stoneblessed.

Hmm, perhaps a rewrite of Stoneblessed to make it more class friendly is in order...

[KellKheraptis]

Bardic bladesingers may spend one use of their bardic music ability to use this ability with a +5 competency bonus. (This ability does not stack with the Sublime Chord's ability to increase caster level through song, as this song requires the bladesinger to fully focus on this song.)

You might stipulate that the +5 Competence bonus is applied to the Perform check, and not the CL increase (unless that is the intent, in which case...whoa).

[ErrantX]

You might stipulate that the +5 Competence bonus is applied to the Perform check, and not the CL increase (unless that is the intent, in which case...whoa).

Oh lord no! :P

I will fix that!

-X

[KellKheraptis]

Ok, time for a thought exercise that is fully feasible, especially on planes like Dark Sun where psionics are more prevalent than magic. Going off the idea that most/all arcane progression PrC's can be transfered directly into psionics, the build I may well see about bringing to the table Sunday will be centered around Erudite, with everything being based on Int.
Erudite 3/Psidancer 2/Mindbender 1/Heartfire Fanner 3/Warblade 1/Bladesinger 10

Fractional BAB : 16.25
ML : 17 (20 w/ Practiced Manifester, 24 with a high enough Perform check)

Other Noteworthies : Will use Legacy item (most likely a graft), Nimble Psicrystal, and vigor/share pain combo to tank long enough to get to the actual meat of Bladesinger (seriously...tanking with barbs = need all the oomph I can get). Can blast and lay BFC as any GOD, and will most likely abuse any possible recharge/expanded powers known to get around UP/Lvl/Day. As the only caster, again, any extra is good. And I'll still be able to have fun and get my kills with the beatsticks, since this GOD won't mind getting dirty (0th level spells might as well be free with psionics...).

[ErrantX]

Erudite 3/Psidancer 2/Mindbender 1/Heartfire Fanner 3/Warblade 1/Bladesinger 10

Fractional BAB : 16.25
ML : 17 (20 w/ Practiced Manifester, 24 with a high enough Perform check)

This burns us. It burns us! Your DM is nuts :P

-X

[KellKheraptis]

This burns us. It burns us! Your DM is nuts :P

-X

It's no worse than a Wizard, really. It just requires less wrangling to get 9th level powers (yes, the arcane version is fully capable of being a psion if he wants to be), and tanks better due to the increased fluidity of psionics. It also requires a bit more work for action novas, and a bit less to full attack while moving. All in all, I love the feel of it, and really, it fits the Eternal Blade's shtick of "I've been doing this since before your ancestor's race was created" out-thinking your enemy. That and you have to do some wrangling with mantle shuffling/PsyRef/PsyChir to get ALL powers and spells, which ostensibly takes a LONG time. Good thing we're an elf and an outsider (Otherworldly) :D

[Cieyrin]

Ok, time for a thought exercise that is fully feasible, especially on planes like Dark Sun where psionics are more prevalent than magic. Going off the idea that most/all arcane progression PrC's can be transfered directly into psionics, the build I may well see about bringing to the table Sunday will be centered around Erudite, with everything being based on Int.
Erudite 3/Psidancer 2/Mindbender 1/Heartfire Fanner 3/Warblade 1/Bladesinger 10

Fractional BAB : 16.25
ML : 17 (20 w/ Practiced Manifester, 24 with a high enough Perform check)

Other Noteworthies : Will use Legacy item (most likely a graft), Nimble Psicrystal, and vigor/share pain combo to tank long enough to get to the actual meat of Bladesinger (seriously...tanking with barbs = need all the oomph I can get). Can blast and lay BFC as any GOD, and will most likely abuse any possible recharge/expanded powers known to get around UP/Lvl/Day. As the only caster, again, any extra is good. And I'll still be able to have fun and get my kills with the beatsticks, since this GOD won't mind getting dirty (0th level spells might as well be free with psionics...).

Man, make me look bad, why don't you, with your crazy builds and my Dwarven Berserker of Smashing Things.

Also, this particular thought probably'd be more appropriate in a new thread in Roleplaying, just fyi.

[Endarire]

Change "martial maneuver of 2nd level" to "martial maneuver of at least level 2." Maneuver upswaps should still allow blade singin'!

[KellKheraptis]

Current game's build, to showcase the bardic capabilities of this build :

Bard 5/Warblade 1/JPM 3/Bladesinger 1/Sublime Chord 1/Bladesinger 2-10

This hits BAB 17, CL 16, IL 17 (TIME STANDS STILL!), and 17th level bardic abilities. Combine with Song of the White Raven, Words of Creation, and Dragonfire Inspiration for utter carnage. I call him Batio, the Magic-Blooded Star Elf, because his guitar solo can bring down mountains and he's inhumanly fast, just like his namesake :)

Seriously though, I'd forgotten about this beast until earlier this morning while working on a ToB build on my latest bard kick, and Bladesinger was the perfect fit. Two thumbs up, Errant!

[ErrantX]

I'm glad you're getting some mileage of this class! I'm hoping it gets included in the e-zine our fellow Playgrounders are putting together, Phoenix, so maybe it will get a few more miles more!

-X

[Lix Lorn]

I like this class!
I understand that it sucks, but the entierly fluiff based part of my mind wants Two-Bladed sword to be an option. It spins and flows and cuts the air like wind... COUGHHellboy2princespinnyswordspearCOUGH.