Erfworld 159 - tBfGK 146

[Half_Moon]

I don't think the Arkenpliers are that overpowered.

Stanley was Chief Warlord and it made sense that the tool which he attuned to was combat based and allowed control over dragons, levitation and throwing thunder.

Wanda is a croakamancer and her tool is caster based and allows her to augment her croakamancy powers with ability to decrypt units with no limit.

When comparing the two, it seems quite even, especially when you consider that sending Wanda into battle risks her being targetted and croaked.

[The Old Hack]

I do not quite agree with the notion that the pliers are somehow 'gamebreaking,' at least not in the sense that they will break the Erf storyline itself. For one thing, it is too early to tell -- we have yet to see where the plot will go to from here, let alone precisely how tough the future opposition will be. For another Mission Impossible style defense scenario? Have the protagonists of Book 2 being those trying to keep from being overrun by the new forces of GK lead by Parson. But I personally would rather have Book 2 be about a different kind of struggle -- precisely what kind is open, just not the same kind of defense scenario.

For now, we seem to be just about at the wrap-up of book one. Near as I can tell, all we really have left to see is the return of Stanley, and possibly how he will react to what he finds. I rather hope we'll see that last, though it may not be necessary depending on how Rob and Jamie plan to start off Book 2.

Rest in peace, Bogroll. I had rather hoped to see you Decrypted as well. But that was not to be.

[Lunaya]

Aww..Parson's really torn up over Bogroll. So am I, to be honest.

Dang it, Rob and Jamie! Why'd you have to make him so likable if you were just gonna kill him?! *sob*

[Snowgods]

I must say I'm really liking the new coalition uniforms. The Punisher design is a classic . That Archon looks cute as well.

Yeah Except that the decrypted uniforms seem to match Wanda's

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If this matches with previous uncroaked gaining parsons shirt, then this suggests that they are loyal to HER, and not Parson or Stanley

[Zeku]

We have no reason to believe that Decrypted (noun) that have been killed a second time can be decrypted (verb) a second time.

This means that in order for the pliers to win a battle, the attacker has to already have enough units to win.

Not gamebreaking at all, in fact, it's weaker than the hammer by quite a bit, since the only way it can generate new units is by decisive battles against weak enemies.

[dr pepper]

Ok, now we can find out what the full powers of an archon are-- by asking one.

[MCerberus]

My theory is that they're under Unsom's command right now since he gives a higher bonus and is currently commanding them to gather for a speech.

[Lunaya]

I do have one question. Is an Archon still an Archon when Charles is no longer in charge?

[kagato23]

Yeah Except that the decrypted uniforms seem to match Wanda's

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If this matches with previous uncroaked gaining parsons shirt, then this suggests that they are loyal to HER, and not Parson or Stanley

the current behavior of Ansom seems to suggest otherwise however. And Wanda herself seems reasonably cooperative still. If anything, she seems to be liking Parson more (he not only saved her ass, but he brought about her prophecy!), and has no problem giving her new pet warlord to him as a minion.

If they do obey her, it might be a moot point, at least for now. Her duty score is probably reasonably high at the moment.

[Lamech]

Hey, wait a tick. Parson would have survived just fine if he didn't go through the portal, Wanda would have resurrected him. So why did he spend time in the magic kingdom? I see one of those fancy chevok's guns. Maybe.

And we have archons on GK's side. That hurts.

P.S. Look at the web adress its http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html and OotS 159 was removed from the index. The erfworld is now at the top of the OotS index. And OotS 159 is skipped over by the arrows on 158. Thats odd, and interesting...

[Smight]

Gotta agree with GoC on this one. We're talking full-tilt Game-buster with cheat-codes.

Wanda can now uncroak anyone or anything she wants with no limits, giving her side troops with full capabilities intact and no upkeep.

Including the enemy heavies. And that's not taking into account the fact that the decrypted troops are loyal to her side and have their memories from when they were enemies! Has anyone considered that little bit? Now when they capture an enemy unit, instead of interrogating they simply croak them and decrypt them. It's the Erfworld version of the Zombie Apocalypse!

But I'm still betting that Wanda will turn on Stanley.

there is a limit, you gota have corpses to decript, no corpses no units.

[Devoured_Dude]

So if the Decrypted retain memories and personality, with the only change being a new loyalty to the side, Wanda doesn't need Ansom to win Jillian's heart...

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Wanda can simply kill and decrypt Jillian. Or wait until Caesar kills Jillian and then decrypt her. It might take some of the fun out of dominating her, of course...

[The Sandman]

The reason why the Arkenpliers may seem game-breaking is that, thanks to Parson's volcano gambit and to the scale of the battle, Wanda has literally thousands of corpses to decrypt. Under normal circumstances, you aren't going to have a total wipe of both sides, and you aren't going to have that many troops engaged in a single hex.

And as mentioned, Wanda needs a body to decrypt it; that means that Misty is unfortunately permadead, and also means that as soon as someone on the other side realizes what she can do they're going to make it SOP to try to burn their dead before retreating.

I would guess, by the way, that the Arkenhammer has some sort of power over life where the Arkenpliers have power over death. Remember Stanley's walnut-cracking experiment?

[Name Lips]

I'm guessing, for limiting factors on the pliers:

1: Decrypted units, once destroyed, cannot be uncroaked or decrypted again.

2: Decrypted units no longer gain experience or levels.


There are other more obvious limitations...

3: Wanda must be personally present in order to decrypt units. This exposes her to attack, and if she dies, it's unknown when or if the pliers can ever attune again.

4: She requires a corpse to decrypt. In Erfworld this is more serious a limitation than one might realize - if a corpse isn't uncroaked or decrypted quickly, it vanishes. So unlike necromancers in other fantasy systems, she cannot find an ancient crypt or battlefield and decrypt an unlimited army of undead. She is limited to the corpses of the here and now. I mean, think about it... what if she had gotten the pliers and there hadn't been a huge pile of thousands of corpses for her to decrypt? She'd be a sitting duck.

5: Corpses must be intact. I have a feeling that attacks that maim, burn, or otherwise obliterate a target will become more valuable. Other factions might even take the initiative to destroy corpses before they're decrypted - after all, they're easier to hit when they're lying down with Xs in their eyes.

6: And here's the biggie. She can only decrypt on her own faction's turn. So no matter how many decrypted she has in her army, if she's attacked, she has to survive the battle and emerge victorious in order to, on her own turn, be able to decrypt the new corpses. That's fine if you're in a winning position - but not all battles are winners. And you can't leave the hex when it's not your turn, so no fleeing...

[Kuddly]

Can these Decrypted be uncroaked if they die again?

Edit:

1: Decrypted units, once destroyed, cannot be uncroaked or decrypted again.

Are you sure? I don't really see any logical factors why they can't be decrypted again. Its not as though their beyond use and many of the factors affecting uncroaked are thrown out the window with the decrypted

[Oslecamo]

Woot for more Wanda fanservice! Who said uncroackmancy had to be a nasty thing?

Well, seems like the pliers are "evilgasm" power level. Not game-breacking, but enough for the rest of the world to be very afraid.

Wanda still seems to be loyal to Hamster at least, that's something.

Ansom also pledged his loyalty to Arsom, and now seems to be assuring the loyalties of his new decrypted army.

And yeah, as for Bogroll, he's dead, Jim. The coalition did it's homeworck on how to stop regeneration.

[factotum]

Are you sure? I don't really see any logical factors why they can't be decrypted again. Its not as though their beyond use and many of the factors affecting uncroaked are thrown out the window with the decrypted

The main logical factor is to limit the power of the Arkenpliers. Artifact of the Titans or no, if it has essentially unlimited decrypting ability then it becomes a smidge TOO powerful, even with the other limitations mentioned.

[StrykerX]

Gotta agree with GoC on this one. We're talking full-tilt Game-buster with cheat-codes.

Wanda can now uncroak anyone or anything she wants with no limits, giving her side troops with full capabilities intact and no upkeep.

Including the enemy heavies. And that's not taking into account the fact that the decrypted troops are loyal to her side and have their memories from when they were enemies! Has anyone considered that little bit? Now when they capture an enemy unit, instead of interrogating they simply croak them and decrypt them. It's the Erfworld version of the Zombie Apocalypse!

But I'm still betting that Wanda will turn on Stanley.

There is one possible limit: do we know if destroyed uncroaked troops can be re-uncroaked? If not, and the same is true for decrypted units, then attrition is still possible. Not easy, since your own losses will replenish Wanda's troops (assuming her side wins the battle), but possible. You just have to wipe out decrypted troops faster than Wanda can produce them... which basically means either winning battles (to deny her access to the corpses) or surgical strikes by warlords (like Parson pulled on the siege units).

Remember, the coalition had vastly more production and resources than Gobwin Knob did. Even with the gems, GK still has only one city (which may limit their unit production capabilities). If the coalition stays together they may well be able to hold their own cities until they have a large enough army built up to take on the zombie horde. GK is now the strongest individual side, but that doesn't mean they are stronger than everyone else combined...

[Devoured_Dude]

How long before Stanley and Wanda realize that a decrypted Parson would save them 1,000 Schmuckers per turn?

[Killer Angel]

Poor Bogroll, i'll miss you.
Also, it's interesting to see that Parson is sad for the impossibility to Decrypt Bogroll... this could means that the "ruthlessness", ends with the combat?

Gotta agree with GoC on this one. We're talking full-tilt Game-buster with cheat-codes.

Wanda can now uncroak anyone or anything she wants with no limits, giving her side troops with full capabilities intact and no upkeep.

Including the enemy heavies. And that's not taking into account the fact that the decrypted troops are loyal to her side and have their memories from when they were enemies! Has anyone considered that little bit? Now when they capture an enemy unit, instead of interrogating they simply croak them and decrypt them. It's the Erfworld version of the Zombie Apocalypse!

But I'm still betting that Wanda will turn on Stanley.

First consideration: we still don't know what are the limits of the new troops; probably there will be some drawback still unclear.
One could be that the new units show Wanda's skull, not Hamster' symbol, so their "life" probably is binded to the arkenpliers... not so cool having 3/4 of your army totally dependent on a SINGLE commander.

Second: maybe the arkenpliers in wanda's hands ARE overpowered, and this could be a Zombiegeddon... can you imagine a coolest fight for books 2? the living world united against the unstoppable decrypt force?
Of course, Stanley and Parson could be on Wanda's opponent side...

[Killer Angel]

A funny thing...
This strip is in OotS site, but not still in erfworld's

[DoctorJest]

Well duh! The Arkenpliers are a divine artifact! You know divine? As in, "from the gods"? Those things that put the "dei" into "deus ex machina"? And besides, I've said this before and so has Rob: ERFWORLD IS NOT A GAME. Erfworld is an alternate world that has game-like qualities superimposed onto it.

I find no fault in the Arkentools giving unmitigated boons: because they are divine, gods are all about unfair; and hell, the real world is all kinds of unfair, why would an alternate universe be any different just because it looks like a game to us?

Lets also consider that Stanley's side now controls two such artifacts with attuned wielders. This may well confer a special bonus or power up to both items. This is not uncommon in these sorts of games, so it may not be uncommon in Erfworld, either. The fact that one side has two artifacts may well make both artifacts considerably more powerful.

[Kilkrazy]

The point I got from Rob's podcast is that Erfworld is a universe that works by gamelike mechanics, but that the people and personalities are the important thing, not the "gameplay".

That makes more sense to me. I see the Erfworld series as a journey of emotional development for Parson. He is being forced by his experiences in Erfworld to confront aspects of his Earth life which he may decide to change if and when he returns there.

[Kilkrazy]

There is one possible limit: do we know if destroyed uncroaked troops can be re-uncroaked? If not, and the same is true for decrypted units, then attrition is still possible. Not easy, since your own losses will replenish Wanda's troops (assuming her side wins the battle), but possible. You just have to wipe out decrypted troops faster than Wanda can produce them... which basically means either winning battles (to deny her access to the corpses) or surgical strikes by warlords (like Parson pulled on the siege units).

Remember, the coalition had vastly more production and resources than Gobwin Knob did. Even with the gems, GK still has only one city (which may limit their unit production capabilities). If the coalition stays together they may well be able to hold their own cities until they have a large enough army built up to take on the zombie horde. GK is now the strongest individual side, but that doesn't mean they are stronger than everyone else combined...

Also, there may well be a currently unknown artefact which opposes the Decrypting ability of the pliers.

[robinmdh]

while i agree the arkenpliers aren't game breaking, please consider the following.

if "moving" a body means it will not disapear:

• Wanda won't have to be in or even near the battle, the units left over can just pile the bodies up for convenient mas decrypting later when Wanda comes by.
• Misty's body could still be there were parson buried her, decrypted it would seem logical that she could cast etc, and a lookomancer seems very handy (and scarce) and Misty could be an interesting character.
• the mass uncroaking/decrypting must be something Wanda does a lot since GK mostly had uncroaked units on their side anyway

but Misty being able to cast is still doubtful even if he body still exists...

this would make the arkenpliers even more powerfull, but you indeed still need to win you battles otherwise you don't have any bodies to decrypt.

[BLANDCorporatio]

... ERFWORLD IS NOT A GAME ...

Be that as it may, but Erfworld is a Story.

It is perfectly possible to devise a story in which the protagonist, armed with the power of the Gods Titans is curb-stomping everyone else effortlessly. I leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out how interesting that can be.

You can argue that Parson and GK are in no position to curb-stomp everyone yet. It's a possible discussion, I for one say they pretty much can and have the advantage of the opponent's confusion for several turns (that multi-hex dirtamancy trap has everyone scratching their heads for sure) to allow them build-up.

In the end, when I whine "game-breaker", what I mean is that I see now that Parson has a lot of power in his hands. Waaaay too much, in my mind, to keep him as an interesting protagonist. For one thing, it makes his supposed uber-Warlordness superfluous.

So there.

I do not quite agree with the notion that the pliers are somehow 'gamebreaking,' at least not in the sense that they will break the Erf storyline itself. For one thing, it is too early to tell -- we have yet to see where the plot will go to from here, let alone precisely how tough the future opposition will be. For another Mission Impossible style defense scenario? Have the protagonists of Book 2 being those trying to keep from being overrun by the new forces of GK lead by Parson. But I personally would rather have Book 2 be about a different kind of struggle -- precisely what kind is open, just not the same kind of defense scenario.

I can agree to this- the switching protagonist idea. Have the storyline follow the struggle of the other Erfers now. Guerilla warfare against the Wombie Hordes.

Also, there may well be a currently unknown artefact which opposes the Decrypting ability of the pliers.

I will only quote you, but I am actually referring to everyone in the "not overpowered, let's imagine drawbacks" crowd.

Don't you think you're clutching at straws here?

Sure, it may turn out that, say, Jillian becomes attuned to the Ultimate ArkenTool, the Saw or whatever. And that the Saw can cause insta-kill on all decrypted and (to add some dramatic tension) to the Croakamancer that did the decrypting.

Fine, possible. All supposed drawbacks mentioned so far are conceivable.

BUT, as I said once, what we see is Parson's hand, and it's pretty much a straight Flush. Who looks likely to have the better hand? Parson. And if someone just pulls out a Royal Flush, well in real-life sleeves would be called forth to be inspected.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Decrypting may look impressive, but let's not forget the power of the other Arkentools. We haven't seen Stanley tame a dwagon. We haven't seen Charlie summon an archon. Just because we now see Wanda decrypt thousands of units doesn't make that anything special. From the looks of it, decrypted are only as powerful as they were in life. So if you want a level 10 decrypted warlord like Ansom, you have to croak a level 10 warlord like Ansom. It wasn't easy the first time they did it, and it won't be any easier the next time. Finding a wild dwagon to tame seems comparatively simple, and the titans only know where Charlie's forces come from (from the narative's point of view they seem limitless). Yes, the pliers are powerful, but the hammer was also powerful, it was just wielded by an idiot. I rather expect that once Wanda is done with this batch of decryption we will see precious few opportunities for her to decrypt anything else, and thus the power of the Arkenpliers will be completely nullified.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Decrypting may look impressive, but let's not forget the power of the other Arkentools. We haven't seen Stanley tame a dwagon. We haven't seen Charlie summon an archon. Just because we now see Wanda decrypt thousands of units doesn't make that anything special. From the looks of it, decrypted are only as powerful as they were in life. So if you want a level 10 decrypted warlord like Ansom, you have to croak a level 10 warlord like Ansom. It wasn't easy the first time they did it, and it won't be any easier the next time. Finding a wild dwagon to tame seems comparatively simple, and the titans only know where Charlie's forces come from (from the narative's point of view they seem limitless). Yes, the pliers are powerful, but the hammer was also powerful, it was just wielded by an idiot. I rather expect that once Wanda is done with this batch of decryption we will see precious few opportunities for her to decrypt anything else, and thus the power of the Arkenpliers will be completely nullified.

Why this hangup on lvl 10 Warlords?

For every marbit they, GK, kill, they accomplish:

- one less marbit for the opposition;
- one more marbit for GK, free of production cost (we know Wanda seems to be able to decrypt forever), popping time and upkeep.

For the love of God people, it's not the strong-on-paper units that make the most damage. Heck, in Heroes of Might and Magic 2 the best stacks you could somewhat realistically get where 20k skeletons! As for Starcraft, apparently the best unit is the crackling!*

*: not to be taken to imply that the Necromancy skill in HoMM2 or the crackling are game-breakers; the point is, they're awesome at what they do, despite their puny HP and damage ratings.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Why this hangup on lvl 10 Warlords?

For every marbit they, GK, kill, they accomplish:

- one less marbit for the opposition;
- one more marbit for GK, free of production cost (we know Wanda seems to be able to decrypt forever), popping time and upkeep.

No. For every marbit they kill they take one marbit from the opposition and give said opposition one marbit corpse. If, and only if, they then manage to get Wanda to the corpse (or the corpse to Wanda) then they get a cost and upkeep free but let's face it basically useless unit.

For each wild dwagon they get Stanley to, they get a dwagon. I don't know if the costs or upkeep of dwagons has been mentioned, but it's safe to assume that it doesn't cost anything to tame it at least. The upkeep is low or nonexistant enough for Stanley to keep a large number of dwagons despite his financial troubles. And unlike decrypted marbits, dwagons are very powerful flying units. So why did Gobwin Knob lose when they had this unbalanced source of dwagons?

The answer is that Stanley wasn't going out to track down dwagons to tame. That wouldn't be practical. The same limitation exists for the pliers. They're primarily defensive, from what I can see. You can decrypt your fallen, and those of your invaders, but its power is sharply reduced when you start campaigning elsewhere, because you either risk Wanda by sending her to the front lines, or you have to keep transporting corpses back to a safe place where Wanda is concealed. Either way, not any more gamebreaking than the hammer. The situation you see at the moment is the best case scenario for the wielder of the pliers, and it will never happen again.

[TazTheTerrible]

Yeah their power kinda depends on whether or not decrypted can be re-decrypted when they die. If yes, then a smart warlord will probably steamroll all over you with a plier-attuned caster under his or her command. If no, then the pliers are still strong, but not impossibly strong. Remember, Wanda can only be in one hex at a time and so many hexes per turn, and her ability DOES require corpses. The hammer and the dish seem to be able to generate dwagons and archons by themselves.

That means that the pliers really wouldn't be all that powerful in most circumstances. You'd have to go out and fight, probably piss people off in the process, and you could only decrypt units as powerful as you were able to kill. If you start off small, it would take some time to build up to a decent power. The hammer in similar circumstances would give you a huge headstart right from the get go. Puny city perhaps, but all of a sudden you'd have friggin dwagons flying around.

The pliers are more of an underdog weapon in some ways. The enemy will have the heavier hitters, but if you can survive that and win, all of a sudden you have them as well. And as long as you keep winning, then the stronger the forces you throw against the pliers, the stronger the plier-wielder becomes.