Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne

[Cheesegear]

And a rule people often forget to mention, grey knights get to count their stormbolters as pistols for cc purposes in any round they didn’t assault.

Only the Power-Armoured ones. Terminator Armour cancels that out. But, Terminators get +1 Attack anyway.

As a side note, any suggestions as to how one should fight deamonhunters with Tau?

Have more numbers than they do. Not having the Tau Codex, that's about all I can give you. But, DH's biggest weakness is 'numbers', and most armies can exploit that in some fashion.

[Lorn]

And a rule people often forget to mention, grey knights get to count their stormbolters as pistols for cc purposes in any round they didn’t assault. So just go ahead and ad another attack to that profile for all purposes when considering them.


As a side note, any suggestions as to how one should fight deamonhunters with Tau?

Do NOT let anything in power armour anywhere near your lines. Or Terminator armour. You'll never get it out.

Do NOT take an ethereal - it's asking for an eversor to the face. Or a Vindicare. Actually, expect to fight at least one of these... be very careful, Eversors can pretty much assault on turn one. Don't let them charge twice, they'll die pretty easily but they'll probably annihilate any unit they charge with between 5 and 10 power weapon attacks.

Do NOT waste shots on an Inquisitor unless he's geared up for shooting until any and all Grey Knights are dead.

Also, watch out for the Shrouding. Grey Knights are power armoured close combat oriented better armed stealth suits that can't infiltrate. Yeah.

And orbital bombardment - don't deploy valuable units too close to terrain.

Split deployment should work reasonably well at stopping their entire assault force hitting you at the same time. Use it.

Indirect firing AP3 weaponry? Take it.

Basically, nuke the Grey Knights as soon as they're within range. DO NOT let them get close enough. Don't have the Daemonhunter codex to hand, but the Shrouding - present on all Grey Knights - is basically the same kind of thing as a stealthsuit's stealthy thing.

Don't feel bad literally swamping the Grand Master and Terminator bodyguard in Kroot or something, you'll kill them eventually and (hopefully) stop them reaching your lines.

Also, daemonhosts are unpredictable. One moment they could be moving and assaulting 12" with D6*2 attacks, the next they could be causing half your army to take pinning tests. The Daemonhunter player cannot control this. However, if they DO take these things, they can't take Grey Knights...

[Cheesegear]

Do NOT let anything in power armour anywhere near your lines. Or Terminator armour. You'll never get it out.

Seconded. But, again, that's general vs. DH tactics. Whilst GKs can shoot (pretty well, I might add), they're deadly in Assault. Deadly.

Do NOT take an ethereal - it's asking for an eversor to the face. Or a Vindicare. Actually, expect to fight at least one of these...

I wouldn't expect it. Assassins aren't as common as people think they are. But, yeah...If there is an Assassin, there's a good chance it's an Eversor or Vindicare. But, most people these days have learned that Vindicares aren't that great...Eversor is more common.

Do NOT waste shots on an Inquisitor unless he's geared up for shooting until any and all Grey Knights are dead.

Again, seconded. A Close-Combat Inquisitor isn't that much better in Assault that an IG Command Squad. Unless they're facing daemons, in which case the Inquisitor will tear things apart. But, you're Tau. You don't have that problem. A shooty Inquisitor...Well, are you afraid of Plasma Cannons that can re-roll misses?

And orbital bombardment - don't deploy valuable units too close to terrain.

Again, Oribital Bombardments aren't that common, or that great to begin with. Usually (so, not all the time my lovely Playgrounders, results may vary) they're just a way that the DH player can fill points without buying models.

What's good to know, is that if you're opponent is hiding it (because they doesn't need a model...) it's only keyed to one piece of terrain. And, once it's out, you know where it is. Just stay away from it. And it becomes pretty ineffectual.

It also is a Reserve. Meaning that your opponent might not even get to use it.

I'm more afraid of Land Raiders.

Everything else Lorn said, I will second.

[Lorn]

Seconded. But, again, that's general vs. DH tactics. Whilst GKs can shoot (pretty well, I might add), they're deadly in Assault. Deadly.

This cannot be stressed enough.

Basic Grey Knight weapon skill is five.

For a basic troops choice.

And strength SIX.

And everything beyond the normal ones counts as having a power weapon in addition to this.

The Grandmasters have force weapons.

Once you get some of these things lodged in your line, they are NOT going to come out. Much like tomato ketchup on a white tshirt, they'll turn your troops into a red mushy bit on the floor.

Oh, and they're also fearless, can have about seven units deepstriking whether or not the rules permit it, and are one of those few units that just don't need upgrades, because said upgrades actually make them less effective.

Yes, a S6 heavy bolter that ignores invulnerable saves is actually a downgrade for them.

Until you chuck it onto a unit of Terminators...

I wouldn't expect it. Assassins aren't as common as people think they are. But, yeah...If there is an Assassin, there's a good chance it's an Eversor or Vindicare. But, most people these days have learned that Vindicares aren't that great...Eversor is more common.

Best to expect one and it not be there than to not expect one and have an Eversor destroying your entire command squad or a Vindicare sniping an Ethereal or something.

Or someone using Culexus Assassin/IG Psyker Battle Squad cheese, though this isn't likely to be an issue here :p

Again, seconded. A Close-Combat Inquisitor isn't that much better in Assault that an IG Command Squad. Unless they're facing daemons, in which case the Inquisitor will tear things apart. But, you're Tau. You don't have that problem. A shooty Inquisitor...Well, are you afraid of Plasma Cannons that can re-roll misses?

They're blast weapons, and thus no longer roll to hit :p

It's the three HB servitors and a psycannon Inquisitor backed up by a Sage and maybe a Mystic you really need to watch out for.... it's pretty much the epitome of an anti-medium-infantry unit.

[Zorg]

They're blast weapons, and thus no longer roll to hit :p

Blasts re-roll the scatter dice (all three) if they re-roll misses (ie twin linked, sages, guide etc).

[Jinura]

Well the reason I would have for Battle Sisters were for some cheap power armour units. But think I should just get snipers first, is Seargent Telion worth it getting?

[Cristo Meyers]

Well the reason I would have for Battle Sisters were for some cheap power armour units. But think I should just get snipers first, is Seargent Telion worth it getting?

Honestly, you'd just be better off getting more Marines. They may cost more points-wise, but they're worth it in durability and staying power.

From what I understand, Telion is almost a must for scout squads. Bumping the Scout's BS up to par with the regular Marines is nothing to sneeze at.

Or have I got his ability wrong?

[Lorn]

Well the reason I would have for Battle Sisters were for some cheap power armour units. But think I should just get snipers first, is Seargent Telion worth it getting?

To be honest, if you're already thinking allied Inquisition and want some cheap numbers, I'd go for Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.

They aren't hugely resistant to damage by any account. T3, 4+ save.

But you can get 10 of them for 100 points, and give them Rhino or Chimera transports. They're OK for objective grabbing, or drive-by flaming. Possible to get three flamer shots in one unit - though one of them is a one-shot weapon - plus any heavy flamers on a Chimera.

However, that's just me. Other people don't really like them at all, it's a case of "does this work for you?"

Can be pretty cheap as well - just use Cadians to represent them.

Scouts... eeeh, I've heard they've gone downhill pretty sharply. Models aren't bad though. Just looking at the profile now...

Scouts: an average of 15 points a model in a basic unit. Plus another five scouts, your full unit is 140 points.

Stormtroopers: 10 models for 100 points, basically.

The extra 40 points with Scouts seems to be +1 toughness, +1 strength, +1 weapon strength. However, they actually have less BS than the stormtroopers - and considerably fewer options. Though they can infiltrate.

So, hypothetically...

Scouts
140 points
Ten scouts, can infiltrate
Can be given sniper rifles for no additional cost.
Slightly higher survivability than Stormtroopers, better basic weaponry (+1 strength) and slightly better in close combat. Can basically start the game on an objective.

Stormtroopers
150 points
Ten stormtroopers AND a Rhino transport
Can be given two of any of the following: Flamer, grenade launcher, meltagun, plasmagun, for varying points cost.
Considerably more accurate than Scouts, more versatile, and are in a transport - which is easy cover when they're sitting on the objective. Slightly less durable. Max of two units of these, and if you do take them you can't take any basic Grey Knights - though you can still take one squad in Fast, one in Elite and one in HQ.

As you can see, they both have upsides and downsides. Depends what you'd use them for, really.

(Note: Unsure where my DH codex is, running off memory here!)

From what I understand, Telion is almost a must for scout squads. Bumping the Scout's BS up to par with the regular Marines is nothing to sneeze at.

Or have I got his ability wrong?

Sadly, you may have - it seems he can forgo shooting to allow one model in the Scout squad to use his BS. Really not that great, unless you're using it on a missile launcher at a really pricy tank or something.

[Jinura]

As I get it, he can use his shooting phase to give one of the models in the unit his BS. Thinking it might be quite good with a missile launcher.

[Zorg]

Or have I got his ability wrong?

You do

If he forgoes his shooting one member of his squad can use his BS. He's only good if you're using sniper scouts as his gun is Heavy, so with assault or tac scouts he's a waste of points really. But if they're just sitting still and shooting stuff, he's not bad if you've got the points, and the model is pretty sharp.


Sisters only really work en masse as they gain the full benefits of faith points then. Allying marine units to them can work (like a dread), but the other way around sticking SoBs with Marines for anything other than fluff reasons (or if you're taking Vulkan) is a liability. More marines is never a bad thing.


Edit: As for stormtroopers, they're not bad but Marines have ATSKNF in their favour too.

[Cristo Meyers]

1...2...3...corrections

...I'll stop talking now

[Copper8642]

Hmmm... for the record, whats cheaper, money-wise? Orkz or Eldar? Like, real life money? Say, a 1500 point army?

Nevermind. I keep getting interested in Orkz and then remember I dislike their models.

Scratch that too, they're not as bad as I remember them. So... I'm not sure what this post is for anymore.

Eldar have lost their grip on me ever so slightly... hmm....

[Forrestfire]

Since Orks is a horde army, it will probably end up costing more than Eldar in the long run (but then , Eldar have lots of metal models, so that might weigh into thwe price more than expected... hmm...).

EDIT: Also, I ordered Space Hulk... Just wanted to brag...

[Cheesegear]

Honestly, you'd just be better off getting more Marines. They may cost more points-wise, but they're worth it in durability and staying power.

Seconded. In the case of Sisters vs. Marines, 'cheaper' definitely means 'less good'. Sisters may still have power armour, but, they have Toughness 3. The only reason to take Sisters over, well, anything in the Marine Codex, is if you plan on taking more than ten-woman squads. Using three Storm Bolters, and squatting them on an objective.

If you plan to use their Faith (which is what makes Sisters kick serious a*), you need more than one squad. One Faith Point just wont cut it. But, really, if you're taking more than one Sisters squad, you're taking less Marines. Which is a bad move.

...Unless you want to capitalise on Sisters and have some Space Marines...But, by then, you've got a Witch Hunters army. Which, isn't necessarily a bad thing...

I'll...Third (fourth?) the notion that Inquisitorial Storm Troopers are okay. Compared to Grey Knights, they're a good alternative being a lot cheaper. Compared to Sisters though...Not so much. One point extra for Power Armour? Where do I sign!?
Unless you love plasma - which you do.

All in all though; There isn't much benefit to taking ISTs over Sisters. But, seriously, there isn't much benefit to taking Sisters over Marines - even Scouts - in the first place.

[Jinura]

All right so after my Sniper purchase, i was thinking ahead about what to get next, and i thought either some fast moving thing, or a tank of a kind. I was thinking either A land Speeder, a Predator tank, or a bike squad.. But I'm not really sure.

[Lorn]

I'll...Third (fourth?) the notion that Inquisitorial Storm Troopers are okay. Compared to Grey Knights, they're a good alternative being a lot cheaper. Compared to Sisters though...Not so much. One point extra for Power Armour? Where do I sign!?
Unless you love plasma - which you do.

All in all though; There isn't much benefit to taking ISTs over Sisters. But, seriously, there isn't much benefit to taking Sisters over Marines - even Scouts - in the first place.

Except, you can take them as Daemonhunter ones.

(Also, they can take better transports - namely, Chimeras - which only cost 20 points extra for better armour and weaponry.)

You then get access to GK Terminators and so on, and let's face it - they're better than assault terminators. Same options, except their base weapons are Nemesis Force Weapons and Stormbolters. Higher WS, probably higher I, and the Shrouding.

All right so after my Sniper purchase, i was thinking ahead about what to get next, and i thought either some fast moving thing, or a tank of a kind. I was thinking either A land Speeder, a Predator tank, or a bike squad.. But I'm not really sure.

Landspeeders are very fragile, and personally I wouldn't get them outside of a squadron. Lovely models though. Decent tankhunters.

Predators are pretty good. Decent armament - if you get them, highly advisable to try and make sure you can switch the sponson weapons - and alright survivability. Not so fast, though. Look nice, and provide a decent offset for the Marines. Though really, I'd personally grab Devastators - they might last a bit longer.

Bikes are nice. Move fast, not bad weaponry, attack bikes bring in melta weapons/more anti-infantry firepower, and they're annoying to kill. Especially if they turbo-boost.

Personally, I'd go for the bikes, second choice the predator, then landspeeder. Though that's just me and it depends what the rest of your army is like.

[Jinura]

Well my army will be after i get down to the local store one of these days.

Space marine Captain

Two tactical squads
Dreadnought ( keeps dying )
5 Terminators
Five scout snipers with Seargent Telion

[Cheesegear]

Except, you can take them as Daemonhunter ones.

You then get access to GK Terminators and so on...

DHISTs are better than WHISTs (Acronyms ahoy!), agreed. But, still, pretty similar. But, still aren't better than Sisters.

But...You always have access to Grey Knight Terminators. I'm not sure what you were trying to prove there.

Even if you've got an Imperial Guard army, rocking with two units of Sisters. You grab GKTs because IG Elites...Aren't that good. Neither are Sisters' elites.

Never have I ever said that GKTs are a bad option...

Space marine Captain
Two tactical squads
Dreadnought (keeps dying)
5 Terminators
Five scout snipers with Seargent Telion

I strongly suspect that your Dread keeps dying simply because there are no other targets for opposing Lascannons (or whatever your opponent's tank-hunting weapon-of-choice is).

I'd say grab some Devastators with 4 Missile Launchers, or a mix of Las/Plas Cannons and MLs. But, 4 MLs is definitely my favourite. And I would point them at whatever is threatening the Dreadnought.

A Predator is a solid option. To be honest, there's nothing wrong with it. If you've armed it properly, you can pretty much just point it at something, and that thing is dead. Keep in mind though, it is armour, and your opponent needs to be presented with alternatives to shoot at. Or, like the Dread, it'll get shot at every turn.
No, they're not as good as a Land Raider, but, they're half the points.

Bikes are awesome. They can move, shoot, and assault. Relentless is the best rule ever. I hope you've got a couple of melta or plasma guns handy for some conversions/weapon swaps. With bikes' massive speed, you'll be missing out if you don't give them Meltaguns (and to a lesser extent, Flamers. But, they're not needed with the amount of Bolter fire you'll be sporting).

...You might also invest in some Scout Bikes, so you have access to a Teleport Homer on wheels. For reliably Deep Striking your Terminators. Since I find static Scouts (ones with Sniper Rifles) to be not as good with the Teleport Homer. Even if they can Infiltrate, more often than not, they'll be in cover. Cover/Terrain + Deep Strike don't mix.

Attack Bikes add another two wounds to the squad, and also bring along a Multi-Melta. I wouldn't worry too much about Heavy Bolters. A squad of bikes is Relentless, and will be firing two shots from their bolters most of the time, and they're twin-linked. On top of the Attack Bike's bolter that it's already got (ABs can fire two weapons). I find that Heavy Bolters on Attack Bikes just aren't needed.

A Land Speeder is...Not a good choice by itself. If it can be backed up by a second (or third) Speeder, or by Bikes or an Assasult Squad or anything else that moves 12" a turn, it can function pretty well. By itself, it will die pretty quickly - like the Dreadnought.

[Copper8642]

Wait, why are Daemonhunters Inquisitorial Storm Troopers better than their Witch Hunters counterparts?

[Cheesegear]

Wait, why are Daemonhunters Inquisitorial Storm Troopers better than their Witch Hunters counterparts?

Different wargear options.

[Copper8642]

Just on the Veteran Sergeant, I assume? Because I can't see anything in the unit that's different? What do DH have that's better?

[Cheesegear]

Yeah, the two are exactly the same.

Except, DHIST Vet Sergeants have access to Lightning Claws, Power Fists, Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers. Artificer Armour, Refractor Fields and Targeters.

I suppose if you don't care about any of that, then it makes no difference if you have DHISTs or WHISTs. Since it has no real effect on gameplay, since 'allies are allies' and you can take anything you want, I always take DHISTs in my Witch Hunters army. Sure, it confuses my opponent since, really, there should be no difference between DH and WHISTs. But, there is. It's subtle. But it's there.

One thing I should mention, is that WHIST Vet Sergeants have access to a Rosarius. That's about it.

[Lorn]

Just on the Veteran Sergeant, I assume? Because I can't see anything in the unit that's different? What do DH have that's better?

Personally, I was under the impression that if you took Daemonhunter allies you can't take Witch Hunter allies and vice versa, meaning that DHISTs would give you considerably better options for other units - namely, GKs.

However, it may be that I'm wrong.

[Cheesegear]

Personally, I was under the impression that if you took Daemonhunter allies you can't take Witch Hunter allies and vice versa, meaning that DHISTs would give you considerably better options for other units - namely, GKs.

"Witch/Daemon Hunters cannot ally with a force that uses any other type of ally with the exception of separate detachments and units from other Ordos of the Inquisition."

...So, if your army already includes members from other Ordos, you can still ally with the second Ordo. Either way, either list can take Inducted Guard/Marines, which end up using the same lists anyway... Page 61 of Witch Hunters Codex gives Sisters and Grey Knights in the same army. There is no like-picture in the DH Codex since WH came out after the DH Codex (I'm assuming that's the reason, it makes sense).

[Penguinizer]

I still think that the normal Stormtroopers are superior (the IG ones). They deep strike, infiltrate, or outflank, they've got an AP 3 Lasgun, and they can take two special weapons (meltas, flamers, grenades, plasmas).

[Copper8642]

Heh, that's actually pretty cool in my opinion. Have all these Stormtroopers with their regular equipment led by this guy with Artificer Armor, Lightning Claws, a Refractor Field, Etc. Expensive probably, but he would look so out of place yet in place it would be funny.

Edit: Yes, Inquisitorial Storm Troopers are like the old IG Storm Troopers. When the IG ones got improved, the old ones are like... Half-A-Troopers (though they still have the special weapons, Targeters, they're cheaper and count as troops. And apparently have beastly Vets.) Now the only issue is that they don't seem like actual Storm Troopers, because they aren't as good. They're an in between on STs and Guardsmen.

[Lorn]

Heh, that's actually pretty cool in my opinion. Have all these Stormtroopers with their regular equipment led by this guy with Artificer Armor, Lightning Claws, a Refractor Field, Etc. Expensive probably, but he would look so out of place yet in place it would be funny.

I'd have said just give him power/artificer armour and a bolter-plasmagun or something. Well, bolter-whatever the rest of the unit has.

Then model him like one of the power armoured guys in F.E.A.R (top right). And then do a bit of work making the norms look like the normal ones... they aren't actually that dissimilar to normal Imperial stormtroopers, mostly just the colour scheme and visor.

..

I'm so doing this.

[Vulion]

Question here about the Harlequin's. What's their role in close combat, I know Striking Scorpion's are for the lighter infantry and the Banshee's are when you're dealing with heavy armor, but what do the Harlequin's fight best?

[Copper8642]

Harlequins can take on anything, but are less durable and more expensive.

Same number of attacks as scorps, same S on the charge as well as hit and run, ignore difficult terrain, rending and melts pistols for armor, they all have high WS and I, and so forth. However, their save, even though it's invulnerable, won't save them much, the shadowseer can keep them alive for a bit however.

So, as I said, they can take anything as long as they survive to get there.

[Jinura]

So I've re-decided ( once again ) to wait about a month, and then buy the space marine battlefore, because It's cheaper, and it includes stuff I would buy in the end. But anyone thinks It's a bad idea?