Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne

[DranWork]

Problem is Shas'aia Toriia with the dumbing down of the army's Salamanders have been jipped on a lot of their special rules that made them slightly different and more fun to play then generic SM's. I feel your pain Cheese as when I use to play I liked the idea of the flame chapter a lot, then I got even more screwed with the dumbing down of the Chaos chapters as well.. no more Alpha Legion *sigh* Sure fluff wise there still there and I can field an army of them but whats the point? They no longer get infiltrating units or the option to spam guardsmen there just the same as black legion with a different paint job.

Lycan I've been quietly reading your posts about you and your brother and all I can really say is... you need to get the codex's cause other wise how can you tell what rules are being used or if your playing a ballenced game? i also agree that you need more then 1000 points for your army's the thrill of a 2000 point game is just to good to pass up really and at that size theres a ton of better tatical options then at 1000p. Also if I was your bro id be pretty pissed as well, hes younger then you remember? He no doubt sees it as "big brother comeing in and stealing something thats his" Little brothers always think there being jipped by there older brothers.

[Lycan 01]

Its also worth pointing out that his army is Khorne. Mine was gonna be Tzeench. Different Chaos Legion and army format, too. But if it really upsets him that much...

Sigh. I was really looking forward to playing as Chaos.

[DranWork]

so get their codex and do what most of us do.... PROXI!

then you can play your game they way you want and test out the army witht he propper rules and everything.

Honnestly different legions dont matter now days. Everythings the same really. Not at all like 3rd ed.

[One Step Two]

World Eaters vs Thousand Sons is a very different playstyle truly, but here's something you can use to reason with your brother:

You can trade, two chaos armies different play styles means you still play your favourite CSM, but you with different tactics:

You can combine, for larger battles he can borrow your army, or you borrow his, for Apocalypse games, you're in Cahoots!

The Bitz! Seriously, the spare parts of a shared army is wonderful, the customisation is nice.

Best of luck, heretic

[Cheesegear]

So, somebody feel free to correct me, as I think I'm getting pretty close with this idea. Before I confuse anyone, this short list is not to be used all at once. This list is for those people who want to have a Company that isn't 2-5th, but, still rules viable.

Space Marine Codex Companies;

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1st; Pretty well represented by Dark Angels (Deathwing) rules set. Although, I'm kind of stuck on how I can get 97 Veterans and 3 Dreads to fit in an FO chart. 6 squads (of 5) Terminators brings the total to 30 Vets. Adding three Dreadnoughts doesn't get very far With only Fast Attack and Heavy Support to go. You can swap Dreadnoughts for Company Veterans. But, then you have less Dreads.

Codex Marines can net you 30 Terminators, or 30 Sternguard, or some combination of both. Another 30 Vanguard.
If you take a Master of the Forge, you can pull 3 Dreadnoughts.
Leaving one 'Captain', to give you an honour guard for another 4, plus Company Apothecary.

So...
Captain, and 4 Honour Guard, plus Company Apothecary.
Master of the Forge
30 {Terminators/Sternguard}
30 Vanguard
3 Dreadnoughts

...That brings our total to 67 Veterans and 3 Dreads. With no Troops choices. Using Codex Marines we can get pretty close. You can totally do it if you just grab 3 Tactical Squads and dilute your amazing First Company.

Deathwing gives us 30 Veterans and 3 Dreadnoughts, with six scoring units. Or, 60 Veterans and no Dreadnoughts, still, with six scoring units.

...In short, a 'real' 1st Company can't be done. Unless stealing from the Reserve Companies, or diluting it somewhat.

2nd-5th; Codex Space Marines will get you far. 6 Tactical, 2 Assault, 2 Devastator. Easily done.

Reserve Companies (these are the companies that the 1st will usually steal from on just about every mission, or, they're the ones who replace members from the 2nd-5th who die).
6th; Many ways to do this, the standard '10 Tactical' isn't one of them. 6th Company is also known as the 'Bike Company' - except in White Scars.

Dark Angels (Ravenwing) rules set is very good. Although they also make frequent use of Land Speeders. Codex Marines, with 'Captain on Bike' is probably your best bet.

7th; 10 Tactical Squads (like 6th). Also known as The 'Land Speeder' Company. 50 Land Speeders? Can't be done.

8th; The 'Assault' Company; Blood Angels rules set will work wonders. Since Assault Marines are troops. Then there are Veteran Assault Marines, etc. Keep in mind that Assault Marines mounted on bikes are still Assault Marines, so, pulling 100 Assault Marines (plus HQ) out of Blood Angels rules should be a breeze.

Ravenwing will also work if you put those Assault Marines on bikes (which is allowed).
Space Wolves will be fun if you carry a load of Blood Claws in Rhinos (Assault Marines minus Jump Packs), as a Reserve Company, the majority of the company having worse stats makes sense. Add in some Stormclaws (essientially company veterans) to round out to 90. Then add an HQ (which doesn't count) and a retinue to put some more in.

9th; Devastator Company; Can't be done.

10th; Scouts and Scout Bikes. Can easily get up to the 90+ mark.

6th and 10th can be done using regular Codex Marines (as we've just proven), or at least hit the 90+ Marines mark. And 8th can be made if you're willing to look a lot like a 6th Company. Or can be done very easily if you stoop to Blood Angels or Space Wolves rules (along with a bit of fluff).

Whilst writing this out, I can't help but imagine a Company from a Chapter who, when the Reserves 'move up' to the Battle Companies, they don't paint over their old shoulder rims. So, at any given point in time, it might look like a 'Rainbow' company, and, if a certain company is particularly bad, a whole bunch of Reserves might move up all at once, effectively changing Company colours.

...But, I'm doing my Fists.

[Lycan 01]

Actually, my little bro went with Black Legion. I dunno who I'd go with... Black Legion is over-done, but simpler to paint. Espcially since I'd already have the paints... And we could combine our armies easily. But I want something different...

I'll talk to him when I go home this weekend. I'd also like to point out that in games where he didn't play, I'd be Chaos, and in games he did play, I'd go back to my little Waaaaagh! of Orks. Oh yes, don't assume I'm going to just let that army gather dust. As I've mentioned, I'd be getting a second AoBR kit, so that's another 20 boys, 5 nobs, and 3 Deth Koptas for a fraction of the usual price. My Orks would shoot up to over 750 points - not something I'm going to allow to go to waste, ya know.

I mean, I love my Orks and all... but I'm tired of just relying on numbers and assaulting. I hate not being able to shoot back, and just relying on expendability to win. (One reason I'd like Chaos - less expendable, more tactical, and you can shoot back as easily as you can assault) I mean, if I had the money, I'd get more Dakka for my army. But I'm broke, and unemployed, nor do I have a car or a schedule that'd allow me to get a job. I have to rely on a few bucks a week from my dad to get by at college. Whenever I do get cash (eventually) for Warhammer stuff, I'd like to spend it on something that'd give me plenty of bang for my buck. And an AoBR kit does just that - more Orks, and a new army to fiddle with, all for a fraction of what'd it'd all cost me seperately.

[Myatar_Panwar]

I'm sure you've already been told this before, but orks are pretty fantastic at shooting. But yeah, no matter what you are going to be based on your numbers.

[One Step Two]

Space Marine Codex Companies stuff.

Here's my take on the companies using legal FOC stuff:

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1 Deathwing is the closest approximation really, but the dark angels should be looking at a rule revision to update them to work with the new marines codex (hopefully)

2-5 Standard force organisation charts

You can "bluff" 6th (tactical) using 6 tactical squads and filling your fast attack with assault marines without jump packs in drop pods, using heavy attack slots for landraiders for troop carrying.
6th Bike company would require Kor'sarro Khan (or his nearest look-alike) to get the full effect

7th Land speeder.... yeah not gonna happen. Ravenwing has some rules about taking Landspeeders as troops choices, but they are usually attached to bike squads to start with, I don't have the codex on hand to be sure.

8th assault marines. Yup, Blood Angels all the way, otherwise, "liberal" applications use of marine squads in drop pods could do the same in a pinch.

9th devastator company.... man i wish.... 10 squads, 4 plasma cannons per squad.... mmmm.

10th Being the scout company can be done Using all scout forces to fill troops, and the scout bikes and landspeeder storm to fill fast attack. the HQ becomes tricky, but a standard captain with command squard would do as the over-seers of the chapter recruits, or a chaplin as their morale keeper.

What it boils down to, is that using things as per the exact numbers given for the company deployment for anything but 2-5th just cant work. Apocalypse is another story, where anything goes, models down points paid, and good to go.

Which reminds me, I need to do some maths. Good luck.

[Lycan 01]

I'm sure you've already been told this before, but orks are pretty fantastic at shooting. But yeah, no matter what you are going to be based on your numbers.

Yeah, I know. But all I have to work with right now is the AoBR kit, and that is built for Assaulting. Nothing has a BS above 2, only 2 Big Shootas... And like I said, I can't afford More Dakka.

You mean for the Orks, or all armies? I've got this comical fear that eventually I won't be able to keep track of my army... or even fit them on the battlefields.

[One Step Two]

You mean for the Orks, or all armies? I've got this comical fear that eventually I won't be able to keep track of my army... or even fit them on the battlefields.

Yeah, definetly referring to Orks. It's not called the Green Tide for nothing. Your BS of 2 may be pitiful, but 30+ Orks in a mob can lay down alot of shots, and if I am not mistaken, they are all assault weapons aren't they? That aside, I have seen a pack of 20 'gaunts out-shoot a marine squad.

Low odds of hitting doesn't mean no odds.

[Cheesegear]

6th Bike company would require Kor'sarro Khan (or his nearest look-alike) to get the full effect

Any 'Space Marine Captain on a Bike' will do. But, KK is a special character and comes with some fun rules, so, would be far better than a regular Captain.

Ravenwing has some rules about taking Landspeeders as troops choices, but they are usually attached to bike squads to start with

Ravenwing can't really take Land Speeders as troops. But, 7th Companies are exactly the same as 6th, that is, 10 Tactical Squads. Except that 7th has training with Land Speeders rather than bikes.

...So, 60 Tactical Marines, plus 18 (3 Land Speeder squads of 3. Each has two crew) Land Speeder crew gets you to 78. Still a whole two squads off.

8th assault marines. Yup, Blood Angels all the way, otherwise, "liberal" applications use of marine squads in drop pods could do the same in a pinch.

Or, they can all ride Bikes using Captain on Bike method (The Assault Company is trained in bikes). And Marine Squads in Drop Pods aren't Assault Squads.

And I forgot all about Scout Bikes. Yes. A 10th Company is certainly doable.

Anything but 2-5th just cant work.

6th and 10th can be done using regular Codex Marines (as we've just proven), or at least hit the 90+ Marines mark. And 8th can be made if you're willing to look a lot like a 6th Company. Or can be done very easily if you stoop to Blood Angels or Space Wolves rules (along with a bit of fluff).

There are only eight Marines that 'don't count' in a Company; The Company Captain, the Company Chaplain, and the Captain's Command Squad (including Apothecary).

Dreadnoughts only count in the 1st Company. Literature seems to vary but, from current fluff, 1st Company has 3 'Veteran' Dreadnoughts (that count towards the 100), and every other company (except 10th) has as many active Dreadnoughts as they like providing they aren't totally awesome and get bumped to 1st Company.

[One Step Two]

Any 'Space Marine Captain on a Bike' will do. But, KK is a special character and comes with some fun rules, so, would be far better than a regular Captain.

For the point cost, I'd take the Khan over a regular captain anyday, especially with that weapon of his.

Ravenwing can't really take Land Speeders as troops. But, 7th Companies are exactly the same as 6th, that is, 10 Tactical Squads. Except that 7th has training with Land Speeders rather than bikes.

...So, 60 Tactical Marines, plus 18 (3 Land Speeder squads of 3. Each has two crew) Land Speeder crew gets you to 78. Still a whole two squads off.

It's actually worth noting that Ultramarines Companies (in the current codex) don't actually have Landspeeders in any of them, or the armory for that matter. Fun little omission.

Or, they can all ride Bikes using Captain on Bike method (The Assault Company is trained in bikes). And Marine Squads in Drop Pods aren't Assault Squads.

Hence the term "liberal"

Dreadnoughts only count in the 1st Company. Literature seems to vary but, from current fluff, 1st Company has 3 'Veteran' Dreadnoughts (that count towards the 100), and every other company (except 10th) has as many active Dreadnoughts as they like providing they aren't totally awesome and get bumped to 1st Company.

I was always under the assumption that dreadnaughts weren't counted as "Active Battle Brothers" for the 1000 marines mark. But to each his own.

The problem with the Codex Astartes (for both players and fluff) is that you can't round the numbers out using the existing ruleset because of all the small variations found in each chapter.

Sitting down with the current marine codex and counting out the units and manpower in each (thank the throne for spread sheets by the way) total number of all Active Marine personell is actuall 900 marines from the command structure down to the 9th company, assuming that 1 of the 12 Apothecaries and the 4 veterans from the 97 members of the 1st company spread out as a command retuine for each Captain, and a Chaplin for each Company.

These numbers don't count Vehicle drivers and any members of the Scout Company.

And all that this info tells me is that it's far too convoluted for true consideration

[Cheesegear]

Sitting down with the current marine codex...

There's your mistake. You sit down with Index Astartes, not the Space Marine Codex. Index Astartes has a perfect Chapter of 1000.
Plus Command Staff, plus Librarians, plus Chaplains, plus Armoury Staff, plus the Apothecarion, which 'don't count'.

Total number of all Active Marine personnel is actually 900 marines

What book are you reading? Current Codex has 100 marines in each Company, plus Commander, with 1-4 Dreadnoughts attached to each Company except 8th, and seven Dreadnoughts attached to 9th Company. And the 10th Company just listed as 'Scouts' because there's no telling how many they have.
And it lists all the Upper Echelons which 'don't count'.

...And that's Ultramarines, the Chapter who invented the Codex. So, I'm willing to assume that Dreadnoughts don't count.

These numbers don't count Vehicle drivers

Because vehicle drivers/gunners come from the Armoury (and are supposed to be painted Mechanicus Red, rather than in Chapter colours). Except Land Speeders, as an odd exception. And Dreadnoughts not part of the 1st Company are likewise ignored.

and any members of the Scout Company.

Which are ideally at 100. Although Chapters with enormous resources - such as the Ultramarines - have far more than the allotted 100 Scouts.

And all that this info tells me is that it's far too convoluted for true consideration

Only if you look at the wrong sources.

And, I'm willing to go over to the Fluff thread if you are...

[One Step Two]

There's your mistake. You sit down with Index Astartes, not the Space Marine Codex. Index Astartes has a perfect Chapter of 1000.

Index Astartes, looks like I need to get that back off my friend to re-read it. I only dusted the thing out after a friend read the Horus Heresey Series and wanted more info on chapters. But as a point of contention, does Index Astartes actually state exactly 97 veterans?

My main beef is with the fact that the numbers are as straightlaced as mentioned then you have things like:

"Congratulations brother, you've served the Chapter and Emperor faithfully these three hundred years, normally we'd elevate you to Veteran status, and let you have some terminator training, but it turns out first company has ninety-seven veterans already. Tell you what, if any of them get taken down in action, we'll make sure your name is next on the list."

And, I'm willing to go over to the Fluff thread if you are...

It's nice to know fluff and rules co-mingle so much that it can detract us, but lets leave this last statement as a swerve back to army list making. -

Something occured to me, once you fill a Force organisation chart, you can then use another for the same army list, so as mentioned before:

...So, 60 Tactical Marines, plus 18 (3 Land Speeder squads of 3. Each has two crew) Land Speeder crew gets you to 78. Still a whole two squads off.

So you can fill in those last two squads.

[Cheesegear]

But as a point of contention, does Index Astartes actually state exactly 97 veterans?

Index Astartes simply states '10 Veteran Squads or 20 Terminator Squads', which is 100. And then lists Support: Dreadnoughts, Rhinos, Land Raiders.

Codex Space Marines lists the Ultramarines Chapter as having '97 Veterans', which, looks really odd, until you see right below that, is 3 Dreadnoughts. Which rounds out the 100. And Dreads definitely qualify as Veterans. It seems right.

Which looks comparatively odd to the other Companies since they already have 10 squads of 10, plus Dreadnoughts.
...Seems 1st Co. Dreads count. Otherwise where have those 3 Veterans gone?

Congratulations brother, you've served the Chapter and Emperor faithfully these three hundred years, normally we'd elevate you to Veteran status, and let you have some terminator training, but it turns out first company has ninety-seven veterans already. Tell you what, if any of them get taken down in action, we'll make sure your name is next on the list.

Actually, that's exactly what happens.
Although there's a good chance they get promoted to Veteran Sergeant. Or become Company Veterans instead if there are enough of them.

After all, Lysander was promoted to 1st Company because there was an opening...

Some Marines stay in their Company for decades because of one simple fact; The Codex is Law. Because the Codex seriously is Law.
(Or, at least it's supposed to be)

Also, something occured to me, once you fill a Force organisation chart, you can then use another for the same army list...

Yes...But you have to fill it. 6 Tactical Squads and 9 Speeders only constitutes 6 Troops and 3 Fast Attack. There's still the rest of the FO to fill before you can start another one.

[One Step Two]

Index Astartes simply states '10 Veteran Squads or 20 Terminator Squads', which is 100. And then lists Support: Dreadnoughts, Rhinos, Land Raiders.

Codex Space Marines lists the Ultramarines Chapter as having '97 Veterans', which, looks really odd, until you see right below that, is 3 Dreadnoughts. Which rounds out the 100. And Dreads definitely qualify as Veterans. It seems right.

Which looks comparatively odd to the other Companies since they already have 10 squads of 10, plus Dreadnoughts.
...Seems 1st Co. Dreads count. Otherwise where have those 3 Veterans gone?

I suppose therein lies one answer, that dreadnoughts (presumably venreable ones) count as being part of the standing manpower for the 1st company, while not actually counting as active battle brothers for the 1000 man (soft) limit.

Actually, that's exactly what happens.
Although there's a good chance they get promoted to Veteran Sergeant. Or become Company Veterans instead if there are enough of them.

After all, Lysander was promoted to 1st Company because there was an opening...

Some Marines stay in their Company for decades because of one simple fact; The Codex is Law. Because the Codex seriously is Law.
(Or, at least it's supposed to be)

My little rant there was more related to the fact that it's a hard dictation on something that's an honorary, and is not technically subscribed for under the Codex Astartes.

Yes...But you have to fill it. 6 Tactical Squads and 9 Speeders only constitutes 6 Troops and 3 Fast Attack. There's still the rest of the FO to fill before you can start another one.

*Facepalm* I need more caffine, anyway Thunderfire cannons make good choices for HS slots if you really want to build the list around it seeing as they can be rapidly deployed via drop pod if necessary.


Edit: Vanguard Veteran Squads can fill elite slots.

[Cheesegear]

I suppose therein lies one answer, that dreadnoughts (presumably venreable ones) count as being part of the standing manpower for the 1st company, while not actually counting as active battle brothers for the 1000 man (soft) limit.

...How does one contribute to the '100 Company Max', but not to the '1000 Chapter Max'?

My little rant there was more related to the fact that it's a hard dictation on something that's an honorary, and is not technically subscribed for under the Codex Astartes.

Oh, but it is. The 1st Company is called the 'Veteran Company' for a reason. Most veterans end up in the 1st Company sooner or later anyway. Except for those who refuse the 'honour', and stay as simple sergeants (or stay as Scouts, in two instances that I can think of), or make it to Company Captain.

Vanguard Veteran Squads can fill elite slots.

Do you mean Sternguard?

[One Step Two]

Do you mean Sternguard?

I thought we were looking at the landspeeder company under the motif of mostly assault squad training, so Vanguard vets being more appropriate. Also, I decided to take yout offer and will carry the rest of our discussion into the new fluff thread when it's made.

[Zorg]

You don't have to fill a force org chart to start a new one. PG 87 of the rulebook states:

"If you want to play an especially large game then, as well as a points limit, you should also agree a maximum nuber of detachments." Each detachment being a seperate FO chart.

So if you need two to make your list work, your opponent also gets two, but it should be agreed upon beforehand.

[Cristo Meyers]

Probably just be easier to go to Apocalypse at that point and throw out the FO chart altogether.

[Erloas]

There are reasons to use multiple FOC rather then going Apocalypse though. Don't have to deal with Apoc level units, troops are still important and in fact required, don't have to deal with armies that wanted go field 10 HQ choices, 10 HS and nothing else.
Of course if you aren't really looking at it in terms of playing and just in figuring out how to field an entire company or chapter, then it doesn't matter.

[Cristo Meyers]

Yeah, I've just been involved in too many really high point value games that weren't Apoc level and suffered greatly for it. There comes a point where you really do kinda need the killing power of a Baneblade to keep the game from lasting 9 hours.

[Erloas]

Yeah, I've just been involved in too many really high point value games that weren't Apoc level and suffered greatly for it. There comes a point where you really do kinda need the killing power of a Baneblade to keep the game from lasting 9 hours.

Eh... I haven't seen an Apoc game, even one with a few titans, super heavies and gargantuan creatures that can kill lots quickly that was even close to being finished in just 9 hours.

Of course that depends if you are looking at those 5-7k per side Apoc games or the ones with 15k+ per side.

[Penguinizer]

I was at an apoc game with 15 000+ per side. It took us about 3-4 hours to get through 2 turns. This was largely since it was rather confusing with so many people on each side.

[Etcetera]

All of the apocolypse events I took part in were with 10+ people, most of whom were small annoying children who didn't know the rules. I stopped playing those games pretty quickly.

[hamishspence]

The minimum size is 3000 points, one player on each side (it recommends upgrading to 2 players on each side once the points costs exceed 6000)

A 6000 points-a-side two player game could maybe make the most of the Apocalypse rules while not requiring to bring others in.

[Cristo Meyers]

All of the apocolypse events I took part in were with 10+ people, most of whom were small annoying children who didn't know the rules. I stopped playing those games pretty quickly.

The last one of these I was in actually ended with me writing up a sequel scenario just to show the people that a multi-player, multi-table event could be done...

8-10 people, over 15K points on the table does not a good day make...

[Zorg]

I've played in two well(ish) organised mega battles. One was a 16,000pt/five to seven player a side Apocastrike game, and it was set up, played (four turns) and finished in six hours.

Similarly I've played in a 10,000 pt / 10 player cityfight game, with two adjoining planetstrike tables that could fire onto the cityfight table. Got in five turns is six hours.

But both of these were made up seasoned (or at least mature, rules savvy) players, and well planed out in regards to army lists, deployments etc etc. They were both great fun, but not something I'd do every weekend

[Cristo Meyers]

Apocastrike? Damn...

"For when Planetstrike just isn't lethal enough: Apocastrike!"

[YPU]

Not 100% sure, you can build a razorback so that you can switch the weapon for a top hatch so its rino, right? And you don’t need magnets to do this I would guess.