Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne

[Eldan]

I can see a few reasons why:

First of all, in low-level games, there are units which you basically can't use, but really want to have in larger ones. Of course, you can fit them in the later blocks, though.
A second thing I can see, however, is equipment, as I mentioned it: instead of just adding more units worth 500 points, you might wish to instead increase unit sizes, or add new abilities and items to unit commanders that make more sense in larger games.

[FlyingScanian]

However, the idea isnät completely without merit. You just need to tackle it in another way (backwards, if you so wish).

Beign by writing up a list for a certain ammount of points, preferably what they play in your local club/LFGS/etc. (in my case, that was 1500 points, though it was quickly changed to 1750). Make this list fun, and what you want.

Then, from the units you have in this list, write up the smaller lists (I'd suggest one for 1000pts, one for 500 or 750, and one for 1500 if you're aiming higher), without adding more than, say 10% (in points) in extra models. Note that you can still configure the units differently. Your unit of 12 Firewarriors in your 1750-list, might be a unit of 10, w. Ui in 1000, and just a unit of 6 in 500. But you're still using things you would've gotten anyway.

This allows you to get gaming relatively soon, and get a feel for your army. Sure, you might still get stuck with some units that are useful in certain intervals of points, but not outside (say, Land Raiders, who are way to expensive in low points, and there are surey sme units that are good in low points but not in bigger games), but this system should minimize this problem.

[Cheesegear]

Modular Lists only work for certain armies; Eldar and Tau, Chaos Daemons and Necrons being the best examples.

Like has been posted, there are some units that just aren't worth taking at smaller games (like a Land Raider) because they cost too many points. Similarly, the inverse is true of larger games. As a general (not hard-and-fast) rule, the more expensive (in points) something is, the better it is. In larger games, you can afford better units, which, makes you go back over your first 500 points, and say, "Nope, I don't need that anymore, I've got points to spare on this unit."

My Space Marine army, for example, as a personal choice, I don't use Tactical Marines. As such, my 500 list has lots of Scouts. My 1000 list has less Scouts, because now I can afford Marines on Bikes (my army is based around Scouts and Bikes). As the list size increases, the need for Scouts drops, as I now have Scout Bikers. Up to the point where by 1500 points, I only have one unit of five Scouts with Rifles. I don't need three units of ten like I had in my 500 list...

As I've brought up multiple times; Imperial Guard. At 500 Points, Infantry Platoons just aren't viable options. But, as early as 1000 points, I've ditched both Veteran squads in favour of two near-full size Platoons. My first 'original' units don't even appear in my 1000 List, like, at all. Not even 'Oh, I kept one...' like I do for my SM Scouts.

To me, personally, Modular Lists don't work. Because why would I want my low-point Troopers to be a part of my 2500 army of doom? I don't want the same (less effective as games scale) thing in all my games.

Sure, modular lists have their place, but, only for certain armies with either
a) Not a lot of (usuable/worthwhile) options, or
b) Integral units to the army. Or for people whose tactics resolve purely on certain 'must-take' units (which is a terrible way to play, IMO...Or sometimes unavoidable {which ties back into Point A}...I'm looking at you Necrons).

[Winterwind]

Hmmm... my personal attitude to list writing is that if something is not worth being taken at high points, it's not worth being taken at low points, either.

I definitely see how something could be too costly to be taken at low points, but that's why it shows up in the 500-point-modules meant to be integrated into the army only at higher points.

Also, I don't have my Space Marines codex with me at work, so forgive me if I am forgetting of some unit type, but aren't you lacking Troop choices in your high-point Space Marine lists, if you take no Tactical Marines and just one minimum size Scout team? Or aren't Bikes a Fast Attack choice for loyalists?

[Cheesegear]

Hmmm... my personal attitude to list writing is that if something is not worth being taken at high points, it's not worth being taken at low points, either.

Well, that's just not true.

Also, I don't have my Space Marines codex with me at work, so forgive me if I am forgetting of some unit type, but aren't you lacking Troop choices in your high-point Space Marine lists, if you take no Tactical Marines and just one minimum size Scout team? Or aren't Bikes a Fast Attack choice for loyalists?

Space Marine Captain on Bike turns Bikers into Troop choices. Natch.

[Winterwind]

Well, that's just not true.

Just because there are more enemies on the other side doesn't mean my Berzerkers suddenly lose their willingness to fight. All it means is more skulls for Khorne.

Space Marine Captain on Bike turns Bikers into Troop choices. Natch.

Ah. Clever.
And illustrates rather well why you'd want to swap the units you had at low-points out, as they low longer fit the army's new paradigm. Point taken.

Of course, that's the special case of the bigger army following a completely different philosophy. Now, if the bigger army just becomes more of the same, or adds units to cover possible lacks of the smaller army...

[Eldan]

The only thing like that I can see for Eldar would be Wraithguard, actually: if you take ten and a warlock, i.e. half an army by themselves, pointwise, they become troop choices.

[Cheesegear]

Just because there are more enemies on the other side doesn't mean my Berzerkers suddenly lose

But Khorne Beserkers scale well. There's no reason not to take them.

It's a question of Scale. At 500 points, Heavy Bolters are awesome. At 2000, they start to lose their effectiveness as tougher, heavier armoured, faster moving troops take the field. Heavy Bolters are next to useless when facing tanks, etc.

Space Marine Devastators are awesome in low-point games. In larger games, not so much...

As I said; It depends on what army you play, and what you want to do with said army. Beserkers should be in most (if not all) Chaos Marine armies because they're just that good. Scouts, on the other hand, are not so good. But they're cheap and good at killing troops, which is what you want at 500 Point games. Larger, not so much, or, at least, there can be better things found that can do it a lot more effectively. Efficiency is the key.

Deathwing is a terrible choice for low-point games. But, at 1500 points, you're rocking with 4/5 units of Terminators and a Dreadnought or two. Taste the win.

[† Dran †]

So due to the whole vassal discussion going on i was reading over my copy of the Dark angel and SM codex that I have and I was wondering about how the combat squads and capturing objectives works. Can a 5 man combat squad still cap objectives? or does it need to be the whole unit?


Also was in my local GW today and I saw a new IG tank that they had, the bloke said something about 5 plasma cannons and the fact that you can park the thing in buildings to get a save (I assume this is due to cammo nets..) But seriously.. 5 plasma cannons? Hetic. Also one that had some kind of massive assult cannon that shoots about 10 times a turn... Guard just got interesting!

[Cheesegear]

Can a 5 man combat squad still cap objectives? or does it need to be the whole unit?

No. Once they split, they are effectively two separate units able to do what two separate units can do.

Also was in my local GW today and I saw a new IG tank that they had, the bloke said something about 5 plasma cannons and the fact that you can park the thing in buildings to get a save

Yeah, but it's a lot of points. And it's actually three Plasma Cannons, but, one of those Plasma Cannons shoots three times.

Also one that had some kind of massive assult cannon that shoots about 10 times a turn...

20 actually. But who's counting? It also comes with AP -, so even nids get a Save against it.

[Copper8642]

Yes, the Executioner has a main turret that is basically 3 Plasma cannons. Leman Russes can also take Plasma Cannon Sponsons now. So 5 Plasma pie plates. Big fun.

And yes, the punisher is S5, AP-, Heavy 20. However, with a BS of three, S5 still not a 100% on the wound, and all armor allowed, Mathhammer says it's bad. I haven't seen it in action, though, so I wouldn't know. Biggest draw is not accidentally hitting your own guys with pie plates once the enemy closes in, but the Exterminator has a Twin Linked Autocannon that could presumably kill the same amount of enemies, cheaper.

EDIT: I have been struck by a cheese ninja.

[† Dran †]

Still... a lot of points for something that shoots 5 pie plates? Protect it well and you got an army killer there. I Assume that the side mounted cannons can shoot at other targets as well.. If so you can wipe out bunches of units rather quickly with that thing.

20?! bha insane, sure everything gets a save but spamming 20 shots is nuts. Does it get rending?

[Copper8642]

No rending. And no, the plasma tank has to target one squad per turn.

[Winterwind]

And if memory serves right, the Executioner is also the most expensive (point-wise) of the Leman Russ variants. Something like 180, 185 or so?

[Erloas]

I had a modular list for a while in fantasy and it kind of worked but I didn't see the point after too long. There were a lot of cases where part of the block would be to add 3-5 models to an existing unit and add options or switch out weapons for characters.

What I did instead is simply wrote a lot of lists of various sizes and designs and keep them with me. It doesn't take up much room to have a stack of 10 pages with 10-20 army lists on them (I can generally fit 2 army lists to a page at 1000pts or less) and keep them with me all the time. Then it takes me all of a minute to pick out the list I want to use and use it.

What I don't understand is the people that show up every single week without an army list and spend the first 30 minutes of every match by writing up a completely new army list that uses the same army they always use, using the same models and generally looking almost exactly the same every time. If they simply wrote a list so it was decipherable the next week and keep it with them they could save everyone a lot of time.

Since most people play about 3 different sizes of games and even if you tailor your list to your opponent you still generally only have about 3 lists and they may or may not change based on mission type (though most people don't know mission type prior to making lists, at least we don't roll deployment or mission type until we have lists and are ready to start) and thats not too many to keep with you.

edit: I've ran the numbers on the Heavy 20 gun, its not nearly as bad as everyone acts like. At least in terms of potential, I'm not sure about cost effectiveness. It does make the job of that tank considerably different then almost every other LR variant though. Against MEQ its not going to kill a lot, but it will devastating to orks and small nids. Sure they get a save, but a 6+ save isn't saving a whole lot of people anyway.

[† Dran †]

ahhh and there are the faults that where not explained to me today! Good tanks but yeah not as good as I thought to begin with. What's the armor saves of the tanks? Same as the Russ's?

[Copper8642]

They are all Russes. 14, 13, 10 (except certain variants, like the two we're talking about, actually have a rear armor of 11).

[Winterwind]

@Erloas: Yeah, that's what I started to do myself, too.

@Dran: I don't have my codex with me, but I believe so, yes.

[Dark Faun]

And if memory serves right, the Executioner is also the most expensive (point-wise) of the Leman Russ variants. Something like 180, 185 or so?

190 points.

With the upcoming Space Wolves Codex, I wonder what kind of Russes we'll be able to use.

[Lorn]

Probably worth pointing out, however, that with the Punisher can grab Pask for an extra 50 points - suddenly, it's hitting with two thirds of its shots instead of half. So 13/14 hits instead of 10. Plus Crack Shot.

Still not the best tank ever, but when you think about it, it's got a LOT of anti-infantry firepower... three HBs, a heavy stubber, the gatling cannon. Total of about 31 shots, off the top of my head. About 20 of these should hit when you have Pask, as opposed to about 15.

[Copper8642]

However, any tank can take Pask. So once again, it could be better.

[Lorn]

In terms of sheer weight of shot, it seems more worthwhile to grab him for a Punisher, however.

Though an Exterminator or Executioner would also be rather tempting...

[Winterwind]

Aren't blast weapons the ones where BS matters the least? Seems to me the points for this guy would be more efficiently used in something where his BS makes the difference between hitting or missing, rather than whether the shot moves one inch more or less...

[Lorn]

BS4 - he's pretty much guaranteeing a direct hit with five plasma cannon blasts.

Though, I see your point.

[Steilos]

Hey.

I was thinking about getting started. Well, I already did, but now I can't find my Orks, and there weren't many of them anyway, so I mothballed that idea. Heh.

Anyway, that was 5 years ago. Taking into account intervening stuff and new updates, my knowledge of WH40K's different armies has dwindled to pretty much nothing. Did I mention that makes me kinda out of practice concerning painting?

Despite all odds, I still feel like it. However, I'm not sure what army to go for. My style of playing with orks was a straighforward charge-the-trukks-in-with-bikes strategy, but I didn't think much of it.
I'm thinking a different approach. Bit heavier. More... shooty while at the same time more resilient. An army capable of putting up a wall of gunfire, and can take a few hits, withheavy ordnance to back up. I was thinking Imperial Guard. Tanks are tough, and although guardsmen are pretty weak, there's just so many of them that it honestly doesn't matter unless they get assaulted.

Any thoughts for army choice, painting tips, etc? I have a lot of work to do with this, and my budget is kinda (read: totally) limited right now.. so I might only have a full army by next year but hey.

[Oslecamo]

Aren't blast weapons the ones where BS matters the least? Seems to me the points for this guy would be more efficiently used in something where his BS makes the difference between hitting or missing, rather than whether the shot moves one inch more or less...

I think they changed that in 5e. BS doesn't affect blast shots at all now.

[hamishspence]

They scatter 2d6 - BS inches- so it still plays a part.

[Winterwind]

I think they changed that in 5e. BS doesn't affect blast shots at all now.

As hamishspence said, the distance blast shots scatter is reduced by BS.

How did it use to be, by the way?

[hamishspence]

In 4th ed, you rolled to hit, and if you hit, then you placed the marker.

[JMobius]

So if you miss, no blast? And you got to place the blast marker, with no scatter?