Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne

[Cheesegear]

So, here's the only Necron list that I can come up with for 500 points

Spoiler

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Necron Lord			140
Staff of Light, Resurrection Orb

x10 Necron Warriors		180
Gauss Flayer

x10 Necron Warriors		180
Gauss Flayer
				Total: 500
Phase Out <= 5

Possibly units of 8 and 12 of Necron. Or give the Lord Warscythe and Destroyer Body combo for some Assault factor. But, Necron lists don't work too well if there isn't an RO close by. It seems there's not a lot I can do without seeming...Underpowered and Undermanned.

[Winterwind]

Possibly units of 8 and 12 of Necron. Or give the Lord Warscythe and Destroyer Body combo for some Assault factor. But, Necron lists don't work too well if there isn't an RO close by. It seems there's not a lot I can do without seeming...Underpowered and Undermanned.

Necron warriors must have minimum 10 models though...

And yeah, that's pretty much the only list possible. You can vary the equipment of the Lord a bit, or replace it with a few scarabs, but that's about it.

Personally, if somebody plays Necrons in the Vassal campaign, I'd suggest we allow them to treat Flayed Ones as Troop choices, at least for 500 point games.

[Cheesegear]

Personally, if somebody plays Necrons in the Vassal campaign, I'd suggest we allow them to treat Flayed Ones as Troop choices, at least for 500 point games.

I hope so. 500 point games are supposed to be surgical strike forces, which FOs are supposed to be good at.

My 1000 isn't that great either. But 1500/2000 lists (I think) I've done well on. It gets progressively harder to lose as Necron armies gain points. IMO, Necron have the most powerful units in the game, but, you pay through the nose to get them, and they have a 'You Lose' rule. Both downsides go away in large point games.

[Winterwind]

I hope so. 500 point games are supposed to be surgical strike forces, which FOs are supposed to be good at.

Well, I'm still a total WH40k noob, so maybe I'm completely missing the implications thereof and it would be completely unbalanced, but it seems to me turning Flayed Ones into Troop choices would allow for a lot more variation in Necron forces, especially in small games, while not shifting the balance too badly.

Unless, of course, somebody decides to abuse it and takes a C'Tan at 500 points...
(which would probably be rather ineffective anyway, since it would cause really early Phase Out)

[Copper8642]

Scanian, it's not, "if it ignores your armor save," but, "If it ignores all armor saves." Not sure if it was a typo, but just in case it was a misunderstanding.

[† Dran †]

just a quick rule clarification if you will.

If a black Templar unit pass's its righteous zeal test and "consolidates" into an enemy unit does this count as charging or do they stop before the enemy unit?

[YPU]

IIRC consolidating now stops before you enter combat with another unit.

[Lorn]

Hm. Query regarding the wording of certain IG units... may ask in GW someday soon.

Would a command squad be able to, in theory, take two heavy weapon teams?

It says "two other Guardsmen" as opposed to "two Guardsmen" as other entries do, leading it to imply "any two Guardsmen not using anything else can take a heavy weapon."

[Narazil]

IIRC consolidating now stops before you enter combat with another unit.

It's true. They have to wait a turn.

[EleventhHour]

Hm. Query regarding the wording of certain IG units... may ask in GW someday soon.

Would a command squad be able to, in theory, take two heavy weapon teams?

It says "two other Guardsmen" as opposed to "two Guardsmen" as other entries do, leading it to imply "any two Guardsmen not using anything else can take a heavy weapon."

I believe it means two others, that aren't any of the above things, can take a heavy weapon.

Bad wording, but the taking one HW for the two of them is implied, at least. And GW has a good record of Errata'ing anything that someone tries to use (Or gets away with, that they didn't mean to include.) against the implied rule if not the worded one.

Either that or HWTs in Command squads are supposed to be really popular.

[Lorn]

I believe it means two others, that aren't any of the above things, can take a heavy weapon.

Bad wording, but the taking one HW for the two of them is implied, at least. And GW has a good record of Errata'ing anything that someone tries to use (Or gets away with, that they didn't mean to include.) against the implied rule if not the worded one.

Either that or HWTs in Command squads are supposed to be really popular.

Yes, I understood the "one weapon between two men" bit. But it sounds very much like I could be able to take two HWTs in one command squad.

Say....

Officer with whatever
Two Guardsmen with one lascannon between them
Two Guardsmen with one lascannon between them

Pricy, but interesting...

[Winterwind]

At least the wording of the German IG codex sounds to me more as if they meant that two guardsmen can get replaced by one HWT and that's that to me.
Of course, if in doubt, the English codex beats the translated version, but "two other Guardsmen get replaced by a HWT" doesn't really sound like something different to my non-native-speaking ears either, truth be told.

[Eldan]

Just a question: vassal has the option to give a Scorpion Exarch both a scorpion's claw and a biting blade, but the codex says that the biting blade is two-handed. Has there been an erata or something? Is that actually possible?

[hamishspence]

It says (for both platoon command and companay comand)-

"replace 2 Guardsmen with A Heavy Weapons Team armed with one of the following"

Since Heavy Weapons Team, these days, is a two-wound single model, it seems pretty clear that they only get this option once.

and yes- its possible- pistol is replaced with claw, chainsword with biting blade.

Neither the claw nor the blade, however, grants bonus attacks- the blade is "a two handed weapon" and the claw, as a power fist, is on the list of one handed weapons that cannot benefit from extra attacks granted by CCWs of any kind (other than another claw)

Since scorpion exarchs can't have two claws, they get the base number of attacks, no more, if they have one.

Some models have more weapons than the old "max 1 two handed weapon max 1 one handed weapon" rule allows- that rule is gone.

[Cheesegear]

Just a question: vassal has the option to give a Scorpion Exarch both a scorpion's claw and a biting blade, but the codex says that the biting blade is two-handed. Has there been an erata or something? Is that actually possible?

It is possible. Models are allowed one two-handed weapon and one one-handed weapon, but it's not possible to use them both at the same time. At least, according to 3/4th Ed. rules. However, fifth is somewhat noobified streamlined. So, maybe that wasn't supposed to happen. I'd allow it, since you can only use one at a time and it costs more points than it's worth.

How 'bout you check the Errata? See what you can come up with. Having cracked open my Codex, and had a look at what you're looking at; Yes. Yes you can. One replaces the pistol, the other replaces the chainsword. So it's fine. But, you can still only use one at a time.

[hamishspence]

Even in Late 4th Ed (CSM codex, Dark Angel Codex, Eldar codex) a two handed weapon and two one handed weapons was common (bolter, chainsword, boltpistol, for CSMs, shuriken pistol, power weapon, reaper launcher, for Eldar Exarchs)

and, at the most extreme, combi-bolter, pair of lightning claws, and bolt pistol, for Chaos Lords or Dark Angel Company Masters.

This is reading the army list entries literally- they say "comes with bolt pistol and CCW" and "may take combi bolter" and "may replace CCW with pair of lightning claws"

In practice I doubt anyone would try and model such a Marine.

[Cheesegear]

So, given the super-duper amount of importance that has recently been stacked upon Troops options in 5th Ed, what are people's opinions on MSU armies? Since I've been playing my Guard for a while, I've come to love my hordes of Troops.

EDIT: Where 'MSU' means Multiple Small Unit/s

Although, since Guard squads come at the maximum number anyway, and there's so many, regardless of your style of play (unless you're playing wrong ). MSU really isn't a factor for Guardsmen.

But...In the case of Space Marines; What are people's thoughts on Combat Squads vs. 10-man squads (+/- Rhinos)? Or multiple squads of six in Razorbacks...If you're into that sort of thing (you know you are )...

Is it better to have one squad of 20 Sisters (with Rending bolters ) or two squads of ten? Providing minimum Troop choices are already met of course. Or, even better; 2 squads of 20, or 4 of 10?

The same applies for Gaunts, Orks and Guardians.
Are Rhino/Chimera/WS rushes still viable?
Trukk (open-topped vehicle) rushes are - as always - awesome. But very fragile and killable...

Survivability vs. Flexibility...Hard choice sometimes. Although not so much for Necrons where MSU army makes little difference.

[Wraith]

A very difficult question to answer, Cheesegear, if only because 10 Gaunts are not even similar to 10 Space Marines or 10 Eldar Rangers in any way. Comparing armies and Squads like-for-like is probably one of the biggest sources of infighting in the 40k community

Taking a blind stab at a generalised answer, however, I would honestly say that such a decision is the same as any other 40k tactic - it's success depends entirely on what your opponent has brought along.

The obvious benefits of lots of small squads, is that it limits the number of casualties that your enemy can inflict due to squad coherency. A 10 man squad of rapid-firing tactical marines with a Plasma Gun and a Heavy Bolter can in theory wipe out 20 of your Ork Boys in a turn, but if you only field them in squads of 8 (I don't have Codex Orks, so I'm using that number as a vague example by the way) then he's wasting 3/5 of his avalable shots. That works to your advantage, as the remaining Squads he can't shoot at run him down next turn.

This, however, fails if your opponent also takes the same MSU tactic. His pair of leaner 5 man tactical Squads still pump out the same number of shots as a single 10 man squad, but they can pick different targets and therefore can choose to avoid such wasteful Overkill.

Against a large army of large-sized squads, the opposite is true. 5 man combat squads can pick away all they like at those 40 genestealers, there's still going to be more than enough to tear them to shreds when they arrive in two turns time. In this example, large sized squads will probably succeed, as they also will in countering such an offensive. 20 Fire Warriors rapid firing makes for 40 shots - two turns down the line, that's a lot of body parts scattered across the field.....

Both types of unit have problems with coordination, too. If you have eight small squads of Troops and your opponent kills off two of them, you still have six full sized squads ready to retaliate - but ALL of them need to be in the right place at the right time or else your offensive might not succeed as well as it should. A single Difficult terrain test rolling a '1' for distance sets one squad back another turn, and one small, isolated squad in a distant corner of the battlefield isn't going to cause anyone a lot of problems.
Six squads has just become five sensible targets, which can easily become four depending on cover, range, etc.... MSU armies should work as one large entity, or else they just will get eradicated in single file, one squad at a time.
LLU (Less but Larger Units? ) can weather a bit of damage and return fire (swords, grenades, whatever) in reasonable enough volume to make themselves a threat, but good luck trying to get all of them to hide behind that 1x4" piece of wall, or to squeeze through that gap in between buidings and still all have a line of sight on a target!

I play an Eldar army, and I have learned all of these things through hard-won experience. Large units of core troops ALWAYS seem to catch an incoming pie-plate, and my smaller units of specialists are turned into red mist almost as an afterthought by 'whatever is left' of the enemy army that hasn't fired by the time that the Guardians are gone. Perhaps I'm biased for having done so, or that I am once more a victim of the 'Win The Game With The First Turn Of Firing' school of army-building, but then again I've yet to face a similarly-constructed army where all my plans could potentially unfold exactly as I'd want them to...

[Cheesegear]

A very difficult question to answer, Cheesegear, if only because 10 Gaunts are not even similar to 10 Space Marines or 10 Eldar Rangers in any way. Comparing armies and Squads like-for-like is probably one of the biggest sources of infighting in the 40k community

That's not quite what I meant. MEQ (Marine Equivalent) aside, I was actually trying to ask if equivalency in numbers was okay/better/worse. So, ten Gaunts are useless. Everyone knows that.
...But...Are two units of 12/15/16 (I think those are 'the usual suspects') better than one unit of 24/30/32? Although, a unit of 32 gaunts may be overdoing it by a stretch.
Are two units of 8/10 Guardians as good as one unit of 16/20?

This, however, fails if your opponent also takes the same MSU tactic. His pair of leaner 5 man tactical Squads still pump out the same number of shots as a single 10 man squad, but they can pick different targets and therefore can choose to avoid such wasteful Overkill.

Indeed. For the same reason that (Imperial Guard) Heavy Weapon Teams are nowhere near as useful as three squads of Guard with a Heavy Weapon each.
EDIT: Usually.

Large units of core troops ALWAYS seem to catch an incoming pie-plate, and my smaller units of specialists are turned into red mist almost as an afterthought by 'whatever is left' of the enemy army that hasn't fired by the time that the Guardians are gone.

You're telling this to an Ork/IG player.

So...MSU...Divide and Conquer? Or Divide and Get Slaughtered? Depending on Troop type and usage I suppose. Like everything else.

I suppose in lists that have options - like Heavy Weapons - many squads are useful...Like the quadrillion Eldar players who take 'Guardians for the Heavy Weapon', the more units you have, the more HWs you can take. Same for Guardsmen.

Units without options - or options that matter - like Gaunts and Necron Warriors, numbers are numbers, this guy is that guy. The benefit I can see, is that you still have the same number of men, but, less units, so in Annihilation your opponent gets less kills, or you need more casualties before your Ld goes bust. Most of the time, equivalent units cost the same amount of points, so that's not really an issue, unless you stack Transports for the smaller units.

[Erloas]

MSU was designed for fantasy because numbers work a lot different there. Since only the first rank attacks in combat and the ability to flank an opponent is much more valuable. Having more units to get into position and a higher percentage of your models able to attack in a round is vitally important. Of course even in fantasy small unit designs are not practical for a fair number of units. Some armies almost have to do MSU, or at least MSE (many small elites), and some armies almost never do. There are some units which almost exclusively work in small units (at least effectively) even if they can come a lot bigger.

Thats not really the case in 40k. The unit sizes in 40k are a bit more set then they are in fantasy, 5 vs 10 models isn't really a change from small to big, its from small to medium. There are a lot of units that simply can't take large units. In 40k it almost exclusively comes down to the type of unit and what its role on the battlefield is for the right number of models for it. There aren't any armies that I can think of that would benefit from minimum sized units across the board.
*Guard might be the exception because I think all of their normal guardsmen always comes in groups of 10, its just a matter of how much you combine them which is a game-time decision rather then a design methodology.

As for some highly variable units like ork boyz and gaunts it comes down a lot to how the rest of the list is designed and unit upgrades that cost per model or per unit. (although the only real per-unit upgrades I can think of right now are marks of chaos, so not applicable).

Of course some people define small in unit cost rather then unit number. So a 30 model unit of goblins is considered small, despite having 30 models, because it only cost 60 points. That aspect of MSU is much more applicable to 40k, keeping individual unit costs below a certain point rather then a set number of models in the unit.

[FlyingScanian]

Well, I've been toying around with a new list for my Tau, since I usually get my buttocks handed to me on a platter. I'm beginning to wonder if it was right to go for ultra-mech...

Anyway, the new list, for 1000 pts (somewhat designed to handle a green horde, since that is my other army...), with thoughts and explanations in italics

HQ
Shas'el (Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Targetting Array, Hard-wired Multitracker, Blacksun Filter)
100 pts
You gotta have a suit HQ. Usually, I go with a Cyclic Ion Blaster instead of the Missile pod, but against Orks, range is good. In fact, it is against all things, especially when the entire army is designed around it. The BSF is mostly just points filler, since I would be 3 pts under 1000 else, and there is nothing else that cheap.

TROOPS:
6 Firewarriors w. Devilfish (SMS, Disruption Pods, Targetting Array, Multitracker)
180 pts

6 Firewarriors w. Devilfish (SMS, Disruption Pods, Targetting Array, Multitracker)
180 pts

6 Firewarriors w. Devilfish (SMS, Disruption Pods, Targetting Array, Multitracker)
180 pts
Designed around the concept that firewarriors are way to soft, while Warfishes (ultra-upgraded devilfishes) are quite good. The firewarriors are never to leave the 'fish, they're mostly there to keep it scoring...

HEAVY SUPPORT:
Hammerhead (Railgun, SMS, Target Lock, Disruption Pods, Multitracker)
180 pts

Hammerhead (Railgun, SMS, Target Lock, Disruption Pods, Multitracker)
180 pts
My main killers, lobbing pie plates at whatever may annoy me. Since I had a few points xtra, I went with SMS instead of the cheaper burst cannons, and with the target locks, that allows me to put out quite a lot of fire...


Any thoughts? Fun thing is that I could, if I was certain that it wouldn't be much of an objevtive game, replace one Firewarrior squad with a third Railhead, since they cost exactly the same...

[tribble]

Stuff about an oversize bolter.

I would like to point out that the Stormlord has a transport capacity, 20 fire points, and can fire that Sonuvabitch twice if it doesnt move. (and with that range, why wouldnt you?)

[Myatar_Panwar]

Any thoughts? Fun thing is that I could, if I was certain that it wouldn't be much of an objevtive game, replace one Firewarrior squad with a third Railhead, since they cost exactly the same...

A third railhead and people will start getting angry at your cheese (or I would).

But regarding the list: I would drop the SMS and just go with two burst cannons. They arn't even worse. I in fact like them better than the SMS.

Also note that even with target lock, you cannot unleash the pie plate and the secondary weapon the same turn. You probably already know, but I made that mistake in the last game I used my tau.

[Cheesegear]

Imperial Guard, 2500 Points. Discuss. See why I don't use (read; 'need') Veterans?

Spoiler

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Company Command Squad				240
Medi-Pack, Regimental Standard, Vox-Caster, Plasmagun
Master of Ordnance, Two Bodyguards
Chimera with Extra Armour

Lord Commissar					 80
Power Weapon

Munitorum Priest				 60
Eviscerator

Munitorum Priest				 60
Eviscerator

Storm Trooper Squad Alpha			185
Ten Storm Troopers, Sergeant with Power Weapon
Two Meltaguns

Storm Trooper Squad Beta			185
Ten Storm Troopers, Sergeant with Power Weapon
Two Meltaguns

Ratling Squad					100
Ten Ratlings

Infantry Platoon Alpha				520
Platoon Command Squad
Vox-Caster, Three Grenade Launchers

Infantry Squad Alpha-1
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Lascannon

Infantry Squad Alpha-2
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Lascannon

Infantry Squad Alpha-3
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Autocannon

Infantry Squad Alpha-4
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Autocannon

Infantry Squad Alpha-5
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster, Heavy Bolter

Heavy Weapon Team Alpha-1			 

Infantry Platoon Beta				520
Platoon Command Squad
Vox-Caster, Three Grenade Launchers

Infantry Squad Beta-1
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Lascannon

Infantry Squad Beta-2
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Lascannon

Infantry Squad Beta-3
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Autocannon

Infantry Squad Beta-4
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Autocannon

Infantry Squad Beta-5
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster, Heavy Bolter

Heavy Weapon Team Beta-1

Infantry Platoon Gamma				550
Platoon Command Squad
Vox-Caster, Three Grenade Launchers
Chimera with Extra Armour

Infantry Squad Gamma-1
Commissar with Power Weapon, Sergeant with Power Weapon
Vox-Caster, Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad Gamma-2
Sergeant with Power Weapon, Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad Gamma-3
Sergeant with Power Weapon, Grenade Launcher
Combine Squads

Infantry Squad Gamma-4
Commissar with Power Weapon, Sergeant with Power Weapon
Vox-Caster, Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad Gamma-5
Sergeant with Power Weapon, Grenade Launcher
Combine Squads

Re-reading through, I thought it might be easy to miss my Mortar teams in Platoons Alpha and Beta. So this is a reminder.

[FlyingScanian]

A third railhead and people will start getting angry at your cheese (or I would).

Yeah, that's a problem... I would MAYBE contemplate it against my own orks, but that's mostly becuase they have way to many bodies...

But regarding the list: I would drop the SMS and just go with two burst cannons. They arn't even worse. I in fact like them better than the SMS.

Usually, I go with Burst Cannons, but what should I spend the left over points on? Right now, that would net me, at most, 30 pts. 3 extra firewarriors, aside from giving odd squad numbers, kinda defeat the point with the fishes (that the firewarriors are an upgrade for the fish, not the other way around)...

Also note that even with target lock, you cannot unleash the pie plate and the secondary weapon the same turn. You probably already know, but I made that mistake in the last game I used my tau.

Oh, really? Exactly why not (assuming I didn't move/moved <6" and had a multitracker). They're just Heavy, not ordnance.

[Copper8642]

Maybe he means after moving 12". Otherwise.... no idea.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Page 58 of the rulebook states that you cannot fire any other weapon in the turn you fire an Ordnance weapon. The submunition shot of the Railgun uses the ordnance template. So you can fire both the solid shot version of the gun and other weapons, but you can't use the submunition shot and other weapons.

edit: actually I might be the one doing this wrong.... are not all ordnance weapons the large blast template? Or something? I thought they were one in the same, but I am starting to have doubts.

[Winterwind]

edit: actually I might be the one doing this wrong.... are not all ordnance weapons the large blast template? Or something? I thought they were one in the same, but I am starting to have doubts.

The rulebook states that "every ordnance weapon uses the large blast template, unless noted otherwise in its profile". So, no, not necessarily.

[FlyingScanian]

Page 58 of the rulebook states that you cannot fire any other weapon in the turn you fire an Ordnance weapon. The submunition shot of the Railgun uses the ordnance template. So you can fire both the solid shot version of the gun and other weapons, but you can't use the submunition shot and other weapons.

Two things. First it's called "Large Blast Template", or "5" Blast Template" now, not ordnance template. Second, even if it was called "Ordnance template", that would not make the gun firing it Ordnance, the Railgun for example would still be heavy, even if using a strangely named blast template.

edit: actually I might be the one doing this wrong.... are not all ordnance weapons the large blast template? Or something? I thought they were one in the same, but I am starting to have doubts.

As far as I know, there is one ordnance weapon (those missiles on the Valkyrie, whatever they're called) that does not use a blast template. However, just because all ordnance weapons use something, does not mean that all things that use it are ordnance. That would be kinda like saying that all vehicle weapons are ordnance, since all ordnance weapons are mounted on vehicles.

Hope it is cleared up, and you get to enjoy blasting enemies apart with both burstcannons/SMS and pieplates now

The rulebook states that "every ordnance blast weapon uses the large blast template, unless noted otherwise in its profile". So, no, not necessarily.

Fixed it for you (and yes, I checked first, nowitäs a direct quite from the BRB)

[Myatar_Panwar]

Hope it is cleared up, and you get to enjoy blasting enemies apart with both burstcannons/SMS and pieplates now

Haha, alright good to know. Though I am going to be selling my tau shortly. Putting around $500 worth of the little guys on eBay tonight.