Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[EleventhHour]

CoughD6+4 Daemon Weapon/Combimelta/3x Chainfist attacks/4x rerolling LC attacksCough

Let's see, you outnumber the 'fex, so it gets to use the sycthe tail bonus so...

D6+3 (C-Claws & Talons) S10, D3 S5, MC Attacks, at I1/2 (Since you have lightning claws it doesn't matter so much.), T7, possibly 5 Wounds. This isn't even including some of the other features it could have. (Spore Cysts, Etc.)

Though, it's true you won't see a Monster'Fex at that low of a points game. They wouldn't expect to need it.

Well... from what I read, you don't see these units often at 1000 points?

Every 'nid player worth thier bacon has a set a 'stealers. Especially in low point games, since the Broodlord is a cheaper HQ.

The others I don't know too much about.

[Wraith]

Sigh. You know, there is this online client (unofficial) allowing for WH40K game play through net. Maybe someone would be willing to play a few games late December to show me such nuances?

If someone would teach me how to use it, I'd be happy to give it a try.

I doubt that I'd teach you much, except what it feels like to mercileslsy crush a 1000pt army that only has 11 models in it, but it'd be a giggle all the same

Dear People Who Actually Use The Tiny Plastic Men To Play Warhammer 40k:

Are the tiny plastic men to scale? More importantly, are the tiny plastic VEHICLES to scale? How much taller than a guardsman should a baneblade be?

The men/vehicles are nearly to scale. You could imagine a 10-man Space Marine Tactical Squad squeezing into Rhino, for example, so long as you assumed that the driver was roughly te same size as a normal housecat and no one tried to move. At all. Getting 5 Terminators in there, however, would require one of them to hold the door closed as it moved around, because there's no way that they could close it properly.

Having said that, the newer models are better when compared to the old ones. For example (and because I have one on the desk in front of me in order to check) the Space Marine Drop Pod is specifically designed to show where each of it's 10 occupants are going to stand and it looks reasonably spacious, whereas the Forgeworld models are slightly better again.

TL;DR - The dimensions of the Baneblade as given by GW writers are reasonably plausible, though probably very, very cramped for it's crew and their stuff.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Yeah there isn't much reason not to run stealers. There only like 20 points a pop. (at 1000 point games, I run 24 khorne berserkers, who are 21 points each)

And list is looking a little better Trixie, though I think you are going to end up disappointed at how your termi's perform. In actuality, they are not much better than your average troop in terms of survivability.

Your 1000 points list is OK in terms of troops.

Here is my suggestion for a 1500 points list, going off of what you seem to like:

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HQ: CHAOS LORD
+Terminator Armor
+Mark of Tzeentch
+Deathscreamer
+Combi-Melta
165 pts

Elites: 4x Chaos terminators
-3x Pairs of Lightning Claws
-1x Chainfist
-Icon of Tzeentch
-Land Raider Dedicated Transport
425

Chaos Dreadnought
-CCW
-Missile Launcher
-Heavy Flamer
105

Chaos Dreadnought
-CCW
-Missile Launcher
-Heavy Flamer
105

To answer your question, I'm pretty sure that its implied that removing either CCW will result in minus 1 attack. Though it isn't said in the codex, so I suppose you could argue otherwise.

Troops: 9x Thousand Sons
-Aspiring Sorcerer
-Winds of Chaos
274

9x Thousand Sons
-Aspiring Sorcerer
-Doom Bolt
254

10x Chaos Space Marines
-Missile launcher
-Melta Gun
170

So I didn't change much here... Just took out 6 of your Terminators, the rhinos, and added a land raider and a new unit of CSM. I'm not entirely sure that taking out the rhinos was the best idea. You could easily put them back in by dropping the normal CSM squad to 5.

Thousand Sons are new territory for me. For khorne, rhinos are pretty much a "DUH", though I figured you would want to be shooting every turn that you are moving, seeing as you are not hampered by rapid fire rules, and can take most otherwise devastating shooting attacks thrown at you.

[Erloas]

D6+4 Daemon Weapon/Combimelta/3x Chainfist attacks/4x rerolling LC attacks

From what I see, I can overkill Carnifex pretty easy if I get to charge it with them.

...

I just checked, and this sad 10 Nob squad with Power Klaws will be shredded like tissue paper by Termies before they unload these I1 attacks

...

Well... from what I read, you don't see these units often at 1000 points?

The problem with killing carnifexes or hive tyrant is mostly in the to-wound step. I'm thinking the weapons you have listed is for your 5 terminators, so 4 lightning claw attacks, 3 chainfist attacks (not sure how they differ from normal power fists), and an average of 7 deamon weapon attacks. With the lightning claws you will get 2-3 hits, and even rerolling wounds you only average maybe 1 wound. The deamon weapon, you get maybe 4 hits, but unless it boosts your str to 5-6 you aren't likely to get more then 1 wound again. The 3 chainfists will average about 1 wound as well. Against a carnifex it will be a bit more because of the lower WS, but against the hive tyrant it will be a bit less because of the better WS. The hive tyrant will also go first, where as the carnifex will either go last or right before the chainfists depending on upgrades.

Against nobz you will average 2 LC hits, 3-4 deamon weapon hits, and 1-2 CF hits, even if we give you all of those hits as wounds (which isn't likely), thats 8 wounds, which is 4 dead nobs (2 wounds each, or maybe 6 depending if the chainfists will insta-death them). You of course will only have about 3 dead before I1 comes around and they get their attacks.



As for how often you will face stuff like that in 1000 points? Probably fairly often. Nobz are in most ork lists I see of every point value. I don't think I've ever seen a tyranid army without genestealers, and a carnifex is almost guarenteed, the question at 1000 points is generally will it be 2 or 1 really upgraded one. The Hive tyrant depends on the person.
For banshees, I almost always take them, and anyone knowing they are going to be facing marines of any type will also have them.
Having all of those units isn't any more or less likely then a marine player taking terminators. You even see LR and terminators in 1000 point games.

[Spamnation!]

I am a Avid Necron player but i am wondering about what i should use on my lord. (i have just a battleforce with a monolith and a tomb spyder apart from the lord)

[Closet_Skeleton]

Does Furious Charge add +1 initiative after or before the power claw drops the nob's initiative down to 1?

[Etcetera]

No. Power claw reduces initiative to one and makes you strike last.

[hamishspence]

Yes- the phrasing "ignores Init bonuses from special rules and wargear" means that a power fist will never have an Init higher than 1.

[onasuma]

I am a Avid Necron player but i am wondering about what i should use on my lord. (i have just a battleforce with a monolith and a tomb spyder apart from the lord)

Ressurection orb and a staff of light. Maybe even a veil of darkness.

[hamishspence]

Concerning weapons that can't be destroyed- is the general rule, that they don't count for the purpose of Death By Glancing Hits?

Let's say its a Monolith. All you have is Str 8 weapons.

You get 6 Weapon Destroyed hits (crippling the gauss weapons) an Immobilized, and you roll another Weapon Destroyed or Immobilized.

It still has one indestructible weapon- but is it destroyed anyway- since no hits can be allocated to that weapon?

Or the Deathstrike Missile Launcher- if your weapons are only good enough to score glances, and since Weapon Destroyed results only delay the launch, is it indestructible, while the missile is on the ramp?

[Falgorn]

Hey guys, I haven't posted here in a while, since I checked out the Eldar. Upon further inspection, I've found out I don't really have the funds to support such an army, since 1000 points is $200(or so).
Thus being the case, I've decided to go with Marines, as you guys suggested. One question, though.
Is there a way I could convert my standard Space Marine figures into Chaos Marines?
Thanks.

[hamishspence]

Filing off icons, or greenstuffing over them, may work. Possibly spiked helms.

Such Chaos chapters should probably be Renegades- a chapter just turned renegade can be physically almost indistinguishable from a normal chapter except for the defaced icons.

Their wargear tends to be slightly different, but this is just a case of not picking those options.

You could even go for a chapter that thinks of themselves as loyal to the Emperor, but not to his goons, a bit like the Soul Drinkers- this might justify keeping the aquilas.

[Arcanoi]

One of my friends, through judicious usage of magnets and insertion slots managed to make it so he could use his SM models for either a Renegade Space Marine chapter (Using the Space Marine Rules) or a Chaos Chapter (Using the Chaos Space Marine Rules), albeit some of the models looked rather sloppy, but for the most part the effect was really cool, and I think it might have been light-ish on his wallet as well.

[onasuma]

Concerning weapons that can't be destroyed- is the general rule, that they don't count for the purpose of Death By Glancing Hits?

Let's say its a Monolith. All you have is Str 8 weapons.

You get 6 Weapon Destroyed hits (crippling the gauss weapons) an Immobilized, and you roll another Weapon Destroyed or Immobilized.

It still has one indestructible weapon- but is it destroyed anyway- since no hits can be allocated to that weapon?

Or the Deathstrike Missile Launcher- if your weapons are only good enough to score glances, and since Weapon Destroyed results only delay the launch, is it indestructible, while the missile is on the ramp?

It would not destroy the weapon, but would move up the table - in this situation becoming "destroyed"

[shadow_archmagi]

So, theoretically, if I could get ahold of the books, I could play this game without buying miniatures and just represent them with other things, right? That is, until I manage to acquire an actual box of little plastic guardsmen, there's no reason I can't write "HUMEN WIT LASER" on a piece of paper and use that piece of paper as a guardsmen, right? Obviously in any sort of official or tournament setting that'd be bad, but for a "Is warhammer right for me and my friends?" trial game....

[ZeetaXalavalio]

Back again!
Been pondering the feedback I got on my last lists and have made some revisions, let me know what ya think.

SM Terminator army 997p

HQ -        Logan Grimnar - 275

Elite -     Dreadnought - 170
            Heavy flamer
            Drop pod - Transport
            -Deathwind missile launcher

Troop -     Wolf guard pack x4 - 247
            Terminator armor x4
            Storm shield x2
            Combi-flamer x2
            Wolf claw x4
            Drop pod - Transport
            -Deathwind missile launcher

Troop -     Wolf guard pack x5 - 305
            Terminator armor x5
            Storm shield
            Combi-melta
            Cyclone launcher
            Chain fist
            Wolf claw x4
            Drop pod - Transport
            -Deathwind missile launcher

Got rid of the long fangs in order to afford a cyclone launcher (which apparently is Heavy 2, not Heavy 1 like i thought!) and 3 Deathwind launchers (are they as awesome as they appear for 20p?), meaning its 3 less infantry but a whole lot more firepower
Still with only 10 troops (albeit very durable ones) I'm not sure that a SW terminator army is feasible at 1000p, they are a tad expensive.
However 10 terminators is always handy so Ill probably collect this army (after some more reviewing ofc) and see how it performs.

SW Terminator army 1498p

HQ -        Logan Grimnar - 275

Elite -     Dreadnought - 170
            Heavy flamer
            Drop pod - Dedicated transport
            -Deathwind missile launcher

Troop -     Wolf guard pack x5 - 260
            Terminator armor x5
            Storm shield x2
            Combi-flamer x2
            Wolf claw x5
            Cyclone missile launcher
            Drop pod - Transport
            -Deathwind missile launcher

Troop -     Wolf guard pack x5 - 260
            Terminator armor x5
            Storm shield
            Combi-melta
            Cyclone missile launcher
            Chain fist
            Wolf claw x4
            Drop pod - Dedicated transport
            -Deathwind missile launcher

Troop -     Wolf guard pack x3 - 199
            Terminator armor x3
            Storm shield x2
            Combi-melta
            Wolf claw
            Power fist x2
            Drop pod - Dedicated transport
            -Deathwind missile launcher

Troop -     Wolf guard pack x3 - 199
            Terminator armor x3
            Storm shield x2
            Combi-flamer
            Chain fist
            Wolf claw
            Power fist
            Drop pod - Dedicated transport
            -Deathwind missile launcher

Behold the 1500p list! This one feels more solid, with 4 squads and a grand total of 17 troops (sigh, stupid costs)! The double cyclones and quintuple (!) deathwinds will hopefully let the dread and remaining terms close into melee with the heavier stuff and tear it to shreds with their power weapons (unless I am seriously overestimating the usefulness of deathwind launchers, which is certainly possible).

SW Terminator army 2999p

HQ 1 -      Logan Grimnar - 275 - Goes with Troop 1

HQ 2 -      Wolf Priest - 140 - Goes with troop 2
            Terminator armor
            Combi-melta
            Melta bombs
            Saga of the hunter

HQ 3 -      Wolf Priest - 135 - Goes with troop 3
            Terminator armor
            Combi-flamer
            Woltooth necklace

HQ 4 -      Rune Priest - 133 - Goes with support 1
            Runic armor
            Storm bolter
            Chooser of the slain
            Fury of the wolf spirits
            Jaws of the world wolf

Elite 1 -   Dreadnought - 185 - First wave drop
            Heavy flamer
            Extra armor
            Drop pod - Transport
            -Deathwind missile launcher

Elite 2 -   Dreadnought - 175 - First wave drop
            Multi-melta
            Extra armor
            Drop pod - Transport
            -Deathwind missile launcher

Troop 1 -   Wolf guard pack x4 - 257 - First wave drop
            Terminator armor x4
            Storm shield x2
            Chain fist
            Wolf claw x3
            Combi flamer x2
            Drop pod - Transport
            -Deathwind missile launcher

Troop 2 -   Wolf guard pack x4 - 252 - Reserve
            Terminator armor x4
            Storm shield x2
            Chain fist
            Wolf claw x3
            Combi-melta
            Drop pod - Transport

Troop 3 -   Wolf guard pack x4 - 227 - Reserve
            Terminator armor x4
            Storm shield x2
            Wolf claw x4
            Combi-flamer x2
            Drop pod - Transport

Troop 4 -   Wolf guard pack x5 - 340 - First wave drop
            Terminator armor x5
            Storm shield
            Chain fist
            Power fist x4
            Combi-melta x4
            Cyclone launcher
            Drop pod - Transport
            -Deathwind launcher

Troop 5 -   Wolf guard pack x5 - 260 - Reserve
            Terminator armor x5
            Storm shield
            Chain fist
            Wolf claw x4
            Combi-flamer
            Heavy flamer
            Drop pod - Transport

Troop 6 -   Wolf guard pack x5 - 280 - Reserve
            Terminator armor x5
            Storm shield
            Chain fist
            Wolf claw x4
            Cyclone launcher
            Drop pod - Transport

Support 1 - Long fangs pack x5 - 150
            Flamer
            Heavy bolter x4
            Razorback - Transport
            -Storm bolter

Support 2 - Long fangs pack x6 - 190
            Missile launcher x4
            Lascannon
            Rhino - Transport

Yes, another 3000p list, what can I say, I like having something to aim for (mind you it'll most likely be some months until I have it all (if it is what I decide I'm getting) and even longer before they're all painted up and ready).
I actually feel pretty good about this one, although the fact that 2/3 of the terms will be stuck in reserve is a bit worrisome.

So any suggestions? Am I on to something here or will they be sucktastically awful in play?

Thanks aforehand for your help!

Does noone have any tips or ideas about these lists? Makes me a sad panda

[Trixie]

Hey guys, I haven't posted here in a while, since I checked out the Eldar. Upon further inspection, I've found out I don't really have the funds to support such an army, since 1000 points is $200(or so).
Thus being the case, I've decided to go with Marines, as you guys suggested. One question, though.
Is there a way I could convert my standard Space Marine figures into Chaos Marines?

Buy one Chaos box you find cool for 2-3 SM boxes. For example, I found that Terminator Lord has enough bits (helmets, horns, shoulderpads) to effortlessly 5 Wolf Terminators to Chaos (except for Cruxes).

Does noone have any tips or ideas about these lists? Makes me a sad panda

Heh, I'm not sure you want to hear criticism given how my bigger army was supposedly 'too small' and 'too soft'

But I'll show them! I'll demolish their arguments! I'll produce best TS list this forum saw!

Anyway: why there are no Daemon Princes of Tzeenth? All I saw on the GW (and on these ForgeWorld traitors page) was one ugly mini that didn't fit at all. Is there a good replacement Fig for this, or am I out of luck?

[Selrahc]

For my Tzeentch prince I use a Deciever body with a beastman head and tentacle arms. C'Tan can work for a more elegant body for a Demon prince.

[Trixie]

How about this guy? Is he right sized to pass for DP?

Hmm, I don't know. Certainly looks 'demon' and 'Tzeentch' part, but less so 'Chaos Marine' part

[Selrahc]

Daemon Princes don't necessarily have to look much like marines.
No idea on the size though. Could work.

[DranWork]

DP's dont have to look anything like Marines so that modle would work well. However the only thing that could be wrong with it is its base size. The base size has to be exactly the same size as the DP that GW has put out. Mainly due to assault and cover rules, line of sight and the like.

[Arcanoi]

Does noone have any tips or ideas about these lists? Makes me a sad panda

Get more squads. For all their fancy gear and shininess, Terminators are only between 1/5 and 2/5 more survivable than your regular troops, yet you're paying 3 times as much for them, per model. Terminators are GOOD, but I think you should seriously reconsider replacing at least 1 squad at 1000, 2 at 1500, and 4 at 3000 with Grey Hunters, so that you can have a LOT more tactical flexibility.

[Selrahc]

Terminators are only between 1/5 and 2/5 more survivable than your regular troops, yet you're paying 3 times as much for them, per model.

Terminator armour is more than twice as good as power armour at keeping a model safe. I'd say terminators are about 50-60% more survivable to firepower than normal marines depending on the gun.

The main good thing about a small army is that you can keep it out of the line of fire of opponents. With only a handful of troops they can hide out behind cover much more easily.

[Myatar_Panwar]

DP's dont have to look anything like Marines so that modle would work well. However the only thing that could be wrong with it is its base size. The base size has to be exactly the same size as the DP that GW has put out. Mainly due to assault and cover rules, line of sight and the like.

That might actually matter if GW would decide on on actual base size.

They distribute the normal demon-prince on a Terminator base, and the nurgle one (statistically the same, just a flavorful model) on a Dreadnought base. At least thats what I gather from the pictures in the codex

edit: How are terminators 50% more survivable, in this case? He is playing thousand sons. Everything has a 4+ invul.

[DranWork]

The terminator bit was in responce to the Space Wolves terminator army that the other dude is putting together. Normal Marine vs Terminator i believe. Id say it would be closer to a 30-40% personaly. Terminators are great, their just really not a viable option for a stand alone army.

An I thought the "normal" DP was on a larger base? The big guy with the power armor ext ext? Or have I been mistaken?

[Myatar_Panwar]

I could definitely be wrong. Never seen a DP in person. I'm just going off of the pics in the codex which shows the princes next to other models. Plus, normal prince would have to be HUGE compared to the nurgle one, if they were on the same base:

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edit: Reminds me, have you guys seen the greater demons at Ultraforge?

Want to get this guy. Hes on a base roughly the size of a Dread base (in other words, he is HUUUUGE)

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[Arcanoi]

Careful, GW often gets pissed if you show up to a Tourney with models ordered from other companies.

[Cheesegear]

I am a Avid Necron player but i am wondering about what i should use on my lord. (i have just a battleforce with a monolith and a tomb spyder apart from the lord)

First, always take a Warscythe. Warscythes allow zero saves. Not even invulnerables. And give +2d6 Armour Penetration. Totally awesome.

Destroyer Body, Phase Shifter, Phylactery (75 Points total - Lightning Field optional) makes an extremely good HQ hunter. Trouble is, most other HQs will have Power Weapons or Lightning Claws (except Tau. A Necron Lord should eat Tau HQs for breakfast). Phase Shifter is a must.
If fielding Destroyers (Heavy or otherwise) or Wraiths - or anything else that can keep up), and in a small-points game, you might be able to drop the Phase Shifter (but I wouldn't), and grab a Resurrection Orb.
Destroyer Lords make powerful back-ups alongside winning Infiltrated Flayed Ones.

Toughness 6 and crazy Jetbike turbo-boost moves is what keeps your Lord alive. Not his 3+ save. Exercise caution when dealing with Space Marine Characters, since they often have Relic Blades which are pretty powerful since they strike at Initiative. However, if that Captain/Master doesn't kill you, you should be able to splat him.
Stay right away from squad leader-type characters who look like they have a Power Fist. Since they can actually reliably hurt you.

This guy, being super tough, works fairly well by himself in low(er) point games. Coming in at 185 points, or 210 if you include a Lightning Field. But, that's getting pretty expensive for one Necron.
(My current Space Marine Captain is 210 points and he stays right the Hell away from Necron Lords)

Second, is a 'foot' Lord. He works best in higher point games in a unit of Pariahs. But, then again, so would anything. If not using Pariahs; non-Infiltrating () Flayed Ones will do.

Again, always take the Warscythe.

Set 1. Resurrection Orb, Phylactery and Lightning Field, if 'staying back' with Warriors/Immortals. This one is most common. And useful for small(er) games if not using the Destroyer Lord.

Set 2. Phylactery and Lightning Field (plus other things, to suit) if stomping with Pariahs. Since the Orb isn't useful for Pariahs, and Veil of Darkness doesn't work with Pariahs. Staff of Light might be okay since you're surrounded by other Warscythes. Strength 5, AP3, Assault 3 is sometimes fun after all.

Set 3. If going with non-Infiltrating () Flayed Ones; Gaze of Flame, Lightning Field, Resurrection Orb and Phylactery. Have Warscythe.

Set 4. Gaze of Flame and Nightmare Shroud (and anything else you can afford), alongside Pariahs is very effective. If you can place your Lord in the right spot, you can get nearly the entire opposing army all making Fall Back checks at Ld 6!

Personally, I'm not a fan of Veil of Darkness, because the only unit it could be useful for are Flayed Ones. And they can Infiltrate (like winners) anyway and FOs can already Deep Strike as is...But, I hate Deep Striking.

EDIT: Just realised you can use the Veil on Heavy Destroyers, 'port them behind a tank.

[Winterwind]

Also, does Abbadon take a wound if he rolls a 1 for his 1d6 bonus attacks?

I think this hasn't be answered to yet. Yes, he does - he's using the regular daemon weapon rules to get his +1d6 attacks.

Question - if I have a squad of Plague Marines, with a champion and two flamers, can one of the flamers go to the champion, or must it be on one of the regular Plague Marines?

[onasuma]

It can be, but you REALLY want a powerfist and bolt pistol on a plague marine champion with the flamer set up, or at least I always have. I used to use powerfists with my melta squad, but Id never dare send them in.