Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[DranWork]

Does anyone know the reasion why GW decided that assulting from a vehical was to OP and thus hit it with the nerf stick? Whilst I understand you would have first turn assaults with combat squads that are amazingly good at assault it makes a lot of units pointless now that they cant assault when disembarking...

Few examples that I can think of that make no sence now...

Banshees disembarking from a wave serpant
SM's disembarking from a land raider crusader (even more stupid as this tank is ment to put troops right into combat what with its frag mine things and all)
Zerkers from a rhino (seriously.. their insane.. why would they just hop out and stand there looking at the enemy..)
Pretty much the whole dark eldar list... Way to screw them even more GW
Units in drop pods...

[Myatar_Panwar]

If you wanted to, you could get out of a vehicle before it started moving, move your 6 inches, and then assault the last 6 inches.

I frankly don't see it as nonsensical as you do.

[Cheesegear]

Few examples that I can think of that make no sense now...
Banshees disembarking from a wave serpant

Banshees are Fleet, they don't really need a Wave Serpent if they use cover wisely (which most people usually don't).

But, Striking Scorpions are nearly always the better choice anyway for Infiltrate, better strength and better save. As I've determined with my T5 Bike Army of Awesome, strength 3 Power Weapons are near-useless because they need sixes to wound. I'm not afraid.

..So...*shrug*

SM's disembarking from a land raider crusader (even more stupid as this tank is ment to put troops right into combat what with its frag mine things and all)

...But, that's exactly what it does...
Land Raiders, Crusaders and Redeemers are now Assault Vehicles.
Codex: Space Marines, page 81
"Assault Vehicle: Models disembarking from any access point on a Land Raider can launch an assault on the turn they do so."

Win. Especially now that Land Raiders in general have an upped Transport capacity.

Zerkers from a rhino (seriously.. their insane.. why would they just hop out and stand there looking at the enemy..)

It's why my 'Khorne' friend uses Blood Angel rules to represent his Khorne list. Rhinos have overcharged engines - making them Fast on every other turn - and all BA Rhinos count as Assault Vehicles (above). Turns out my friend cheats.
And counting the Death Company as 'Chosen' and stuff.
'Khorne Beserkers' are 'Assault Marines without Jump Packs who get a free Overcharged Rhino'.

It's common knowledge that the Chaos Codex is currently gimped in certain areas. I don't play Chaos anymore (because of said gimped Codex), so, I'm not entirely fussed.

Pretty much the whole dark eldar list...

False. Dark Eldar Raiders are Open-Topped, you can assault from Open Topped vehicles. It's weird that you forgot about Orks who also assault from Open Topped trukks.

Units in drop pods...

*shrug*...The only units I have in Drop Pods are Dreadnoughts who don't really belong in combat since I arm them a Missile Launcher instead of DCCW just about every time. And Sternguard Deathwatch, who don't belong in Assault, and it's way cooler for Deathwatch to arrive in Drop Pods and shoot the crap out of anything.

It's not that GW has screwed over Drop Pods. It's that certain units just don't belong in Drop Pods. And, assaulting from Deep Strike is overpowered. That's why only (from memory) Vanguard veterans can do it. And, even then, VVs and Heroic Intervention aren't that good because Deep Striking without Drop Pods blows chunks.
And VVs only start getting good when you start kitting them all out, which gets expensive fairly fast. I prefer to stick with my Assault Squads who are cheaper, both in points and in currency. And don't perform as Fire Magnets. Which VVs almost certainly always do/will unless they Deep Strike which - as I said - blows chunks without a Drop Pod.


...Yeah...So, assault-from-vehicles got hit primarily to deal with Rhino Rush armies. Because that's all anyone would take to tournaments because it's just so overpowered.

The only army that can still Rhino Rush are Dark Eldar and Orks. But, DE and Orks aren't Space Marines and aren't equipped with Rhinos. So, it's slightly different.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Hrm, what advantages does your friend gain from the blood angels rules? Aside from the extra transport stuff.

I might have to take a look at them, if his berserkers are actually performing better than real berserkers.

[Tren]

Banshees are Fleet, they don't really need a Wave Serpent if they use cover wisely (which most people usually don't).

Fleet and cover will not help when you're still only T3 with a 4+ save. A heavy flamer in a drop pod would like a word with you. Especially with that many power weapons in a single squad, your MEQ opponents will stop and take notice.

It's why my 'Khorne' friend uses Blood Angel rules to represent his Khorne list. Rhinos have overcharged engines - making them Fast on every other turn - and all BA Rhinos count as Assault Vehicles (above). And counting the Death Company as 'Chosen' and stuff.
'Khorne Beserkers' are 'Assault Marines without Jump Packs who get a free Overcharged Assault Rhino'.

Unless you guys let your friend play with an illegal codex, Blood Angels haven't had Assault Rhino's for some time.

It's not that GW has screwed over Drop Pods. It's that certain units just don't belong in Drop Pods. And, assaulting from Deep Strike is overpowered. That's why only (from memory) Vanguard veterans can do it. And, even then, VVs and Heroic Intervention aren't that good because Deep Striking without Drop Pods blows chunks.

Stormboyz with the character upgrade (Zagstruk?) can do it as well. But you're right, assaulting out of a drop pod would be absolutely ridiculous. Which is FW has lost a lot of credit in my eyes with their Assault Vehicle Dreadnought dedicated drop pod-- for a whopping 50pts. Bull ****ing ****-- that's absolutely retarded. I find reason enough to hate regular drop pods with turn one infallible deepstriking sternguard w/ combi meltas (yes it's expensive, but it doesn't matter if it neuters your game plan before you get to move). Why even bother playing then? Why not pay a certain number of points for the ability to just point at an enemy unit and go "Remove that one."

[EleventhHour]

Unless you guys let your friend play with an illegal codex, Blood Angels haven't had Assault Rhino's for some time.

It was likely Errata'd in. Or FAQ release.

[Cheesegear]

Unless you guys let your friend play with an illegal codex, Blood Angels haven't had Assault Rhino's for some time.

...You're right. He's been cheating this entire time.
Lucky he doesn't use the Rhinos much then. That makes me feel...Almost better.

Aside from the extra transport stuff.

I might have to take a look at them, if his berserkers are actually performing better than real berserkers.

Aside from Fast (move 24") Rhinos? You say that like it's not a huge deal.

I don't know how 'real' Beserkers perform, since I don't have the Chaos Codex. And I haven't played against a 'real' Chaos army in quite some time since the only person I knows who plays 'Chaos', actually plays Blood Angels with Chaos models.

But, I know Blood Angels' rules;
Assault Squads as Troops. My friend buys regular Khorne boxes and then buys Space Marine Jump Packs from mail order. It works quite nicely. When you make enough of those, make 'Assault Squads' without Jump Packs for free Rhinos/Drop Pods and less mail-ordering bits.

Of course, there's always access to Tactical Squads. "...Khorne's roar can be heard in a boltgun..." and all, so it's not that unfluffy. But, it's something to think about. Especially since I'm told that a 'proper Khorne' army's shooting sucks.

Access to Attack Bikes and Land Speeders...If you care about that sort of thing. Assault Vehicle Land Raiders and Land Raider Crusaders. Which I'm pretty sure the Chaos Codex doesn't have.

Veteran Assault Squads. Basically regular Assault Marines with an extra attack and the ability to load out on special close combat weapons (gets expensive).
Furioso Dreadnoughts kind of act like Chaos Dreadnoughts. Except minus Fire Frenzy and crap. Death Company Dreadnoughts are just fun.

And then there's the Death Company itself, a free unit which function a lot like real Beserkers.

...I think the only thing a 'Chaos' Blood Angels army would lose, are Daemon Weapons, whatever funky rules Beserkers have, Obliterators and Defilers.

A Blood Angels' Librarian also has access to 'move like a Jet Bike', 'enemy models in BtB lose one attack'.
Important: It does not say 'to a minimum of 1 attack' like most things, and it says in Base-to-Base contact. Not 'models directing attacks against the Librarian'. So, anything even touching the Librarian loses attacks, to a minimum of 0. Put the Librarian in Terminator Armour for a bigger base.
...I have learned this the hard way...

And a Librarian also has access to +D3 attacks and Force Weapons.

Mephiston has all three powers and can use four powers (three + force weapon) a turn. Just not the same power twice. Still, Mephiston is awesome.

"But Cheesegear, Sorcerers and Khorne don't mix!"

F* that. Khorne's a moron. Let's just pretend the Librarian's psychic powers are adrenaline implants and psycho drugs that Angron himself was so fond of. If the psyker fails a 'psychic test' his brain explodes and his body parts go flying in every direction.

Or, don't even bother with that explanation. Tell your opponent that Khorne is a moron, and you'll have psykers in your army if you want them.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Well, the huge assault range is pretty great I suppose, though Berserker combat prowess in general is better than assault marines (don't know how angels are different...). Four attacks/ +1 Strength and inititive on the charge is pretty good. And a five Weapon skill means I hit just about everything at a 3+.

edit: And chaos land raiders are indeed assault vehicles.

another edit: Chaos marine tac squads are pretty much identical to normal marine tac squads. Except we get both CCW+Pistol as well as a bolter. Arn't forced to pick sides.

Also you forgot to mention that you loose out on demon princes. Kind of a big deal. past two games I've ran one, it destroyed an entire 15 man blood claw unit by itself. A game a couple weeks ago, it did that along with a Special Character dreadnought, some termies, and an entire dev squad.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Because making fun of Khorne usually works out so well for the people that try it.

[Timberwolf]

Snip - Lot's o' Blood Angels stuff...

You know, this is making me feel better and better about sticking with what I know.

[Copper8642]

Well... finally buying/receiving a few models around Christmas isn't going to happen... so it looks like I have another half a year to a year before I finally get into this hobby... Not sure how this relates to anything...

Well, I have enjoyed reading all the discussion that I missed (basically this entire topic) while I was away from giantitp. There, that relates!

[crazedloon]

Well... finally buying/receiving a few models around Christmas isn't going to happen... so it looks like I have another half a year to a year before I finally get into this hobby... Not sure how this relates to anything...

What army you starting?

[Tren]

Aside from Fast (move 24") Rhinos? You say that like it's not a huge deal.

Hey Cheese, sorry to be a wet blanket again, but has your friend been running them 24''? Only fast skimmers can go 24'', regular fast vehicles only go 18'' and don't benefit from any cover save.

Access to Attack Bikes and Land Speeders...If you care about that sort of thing. Assault Vehicle Land Raiders and Land Raider Crusaders. Which I'm pretty sure the Chaos Codex doesn't have.

Chaos Raiders are still Assault Vehicles, they just dont have PotMS and are less expensive.

F* that. Khorne's a moron. Let's just pretend the Librarian's psychic powers are adrenaline implants and psycho drugs that Angron himself was so fond of. If the psyker fails a 'psychic test' his brain explodes and his body parts g flying in every direction.

Actually that sounds like a pretty cool fluff reason.

[Copper8642]

I can't overcome my indecision, but I've decided on Eldar more times than anything else.

[crazedloon]

I can't overcome my indecision, but I've decided on Eldar more times than anything else.

If youc an find the first battle force they made for them it is an awesome deal.

That or I would suggest Ebay because a lot of people like the newer eldar models so you can pick up some of the older models for cheaper.

Also a good way to get into the hobby before owning models would be the GW stores as you can chat up other players and get their opinions and some may even be willing to let you play some games with their models.

[Lycan 01]

*somehow managed to get the Codex back into his possession*

Here are my plants for a 750 point Waaaaaaaagh!! How does it look?

Spoiler

Show

Warboss (Tagged with Nob Mob)
-Power Klaw
-Twin-Linked Shoota
-'Eavy Armor
-Bosspole
100 Points

Nobs x 5
-Sluggas and Choppas
-'Eavy Armor
-Stikkbombz
130 Points

Boyz x 21
-Shootas and Sluggas x 18
-Big Shootas x 2
-1 Nob Upgrade
--Power Klaw
--Bosspole
176 Points

Boyz x 10
-Shootas
-1 Nob Upgrade
--Bosspole
75 Points

MegaNobz x 3
-Twin-Linked Shoota
-Combi Shoota-Scorcha
-Combi Shoota-Rokkit Launcha
130 Points

DeffKoptas x 3
-Twin-Linked Rokkit Launcas
135 Points

Total - 746 Points

How does that look? Thats what I hope to have ASAP. I'll work up the list for what I've got to work with right now whenever I get some more time to spare...

[crazedloon]

I would say you need at least 1 truck if not a truck for all your boyz to get them in the thick of things quicker.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Yeah, definitely agreeing on a mess of trukks.

[Lycan 01]

So what should I ditch for the Trukks? (Looted Wagons may be better option - I can get a Trukk for 30-something bucks, or a model truck of some sort for less than 20, and then Ork it out. )

If I ditch the 'Eavy Armor for the Nobz, and one or two other small things, I can pick up a Trukk or Looted Wagon and use it as the MegaNobz' transport...

[Arcanoi]

Also, this has been brought up before, but specialization is what wins games, not being good at everything. Homogenize those weapons on the Meganobs so they can kill what you design them to kill, rather than failing to kill everything.

[Myatar_Panwar]

I would probably drop the mega-nobs and give yourself some more boyz and a trukk.

The shootas can foot-slog it, and the 20 choppa squad can trukk it. Give your extra points to decking out the shootas a little more.

[Lycan 01]

Okie dokie then. How does this look?

Spoiler

Show

Warboss (Tagged with Nob Mob)
-Power Klaw
-Twin-Linked Shoota
-'Eavy Armor
-Bosspole
100 Points

Nobs x 5
-Sluggas and Choppas
-Stikkbombz
105 Points

Boyz x 21
-Shootas and Sluggas x 18
-Big Shootas x 2
-1 Nob Upgrade
--Power Klaw
--Bosspole
176 Points

Boyz x 10
-Shootas
-1 Nob Upgrade
--Bosspole
75 Points

MegaNobz x 3
-Twin-Linked Shoota x 3
120 Points

DeffKoptas x 3
-Twin-Linked Rokkit Launcas
135 Points

Looted Wagon
-Big Shoota x 2
-Red Paint
50 Points

Total - 751 Points


Let me start working on some other lists...


Two more lists for consideration.

Spoiler

Show

Warboss (Tagged with Nob Mob)
-Power Klaw
-Twin-Linked Shoota
-'Eavy Armor
-Bosspole
100 Points

Nobs x 5
-Sluggas and Choppas
-'Eavy Armor
-Stikkbombz
130 Points

Boyz x 20
-Shootas and Sluggas x 18
-Big Shootas x 2
-'Eavy Armor
210 Points

Killa Kans x 3
-Big Shoota x 1
-Grotzooka x 2
130 Points

DeffKoptas x 3
-Twin-Linked Rokkit Launcas
135 Points

Looted Wagon
-Big Shoota x 1
-Red Paint
45 Points

Total - 750 Points

Spoiler

Show

Warboss (Tagged with Nob Mob)
-Power Klaw
-Twin-Linked Shoota
-'Eavy Armor
-Bosspole
100 Points

Nobs x 5
-Sluggas and Choppas
-'Eavy Armor
-Stikkbombz
130 Points

Boyz x 20
-Shootas and Sluggas x 18
-Big Shootas x 2
130 Points

Boyz x 10
-Shootas
-1 Nob Upgrade
--Bosspole
75 Points

Killa Kans x 2
-Big Shoota x 1
-Grotzooka x 1
85 Points

DeffKoptas x 3
-Twin-Linked Rokkit Launcas
135 Points

Looted Wagon
-Big Shoota x 2
-Red Paint
50 Points

Looted Wagon
-Big Shoota x 1
-Red Paint
45 Points

Total - 750 Points

[Issabella]

Well I had my first small scale game with my new Khorne themed army from a few pages back. One of the Red shirts played me with his Black Templar's, it was a slow day in the store.

We played on the ruins of Osgiliath(sp) terrain from LoTR, and made the objectives the two small bridges across.

My Force
Kharn the Betrayer

12 'Zerker squad, skull champion (power weapon + melta bombs), +2 plasma pistols

12 'Zerker squad, skull champion (power weapon + melta bombs), +2 plasma pistols

Chaos Defiler +2 close assault weapons

(I skimped on the rhino's the terrain was too thick to get many vehicles past, The Defiler scrambled nicely though.)

Red Shirt

Emperors champion
Dreadnought with assault cannon/power fist

2 very large squads of mixed regulars and neophytes.

Things Issa learned from the fight.
A- Kharn is a absolute beast, killing 6 on his initial charge
B- the weapon skill 5 on the Bezerks does help over long combats
C- The emperors champion's vows are really nasty

Overview: Sadly the first bridge got blocked on both ends. The Black Templar Dread and the Defiler actually immobilized each other out of combat reach, but enough to really block the bridge. The assault cannon immobilized my defiler, the return battle cannon shot (double close combat weapons seemed like a good idea at the time :(, and fit the theme) immobilized the dread. After that I lost the battle cannon and essentially my heavy option. The rest of his assault cannon shooting was very ineffective due to LoS issues.

The rest of the game boiled down to a bridge that you could cram maybe 3 infantry wide. So Kharn and the two skull champions up front with the rest of the 'Zerkers piled in behind, vs the up front champion and his squad champions. Then it just became a meat grinder with the back ranks being subtracted for the slaughter up front. Long story, the dice averages favored me and after 4 turns of close combat I took the bridge and the game.

[Ashtar]

And how many of his own side did Kharn offer up to the blood god? Or does he no longer chop off the heads of his friends?

[Issabella]

I attacked 5 on my own side, but failed to wound twice....

[Lycan 01]

Niiiiiiice... That sounds like a really awesome game, Issabella. That must have been a lot of fun!




Sooo... Anybody want to tell me my best army options? (In case you don't know/forgot, I mostly fight Space & Chaos Marines, and on rare occassions, Imp Guard.)

[Myatar_Panwar]

Lots and lots of boyz..... just sayin.

By looking at your lists, it seems like you want to get to the heavier things, but you can't really beat ork boyz.

Get multiple squads of 20 boyz. Some of those squads have shootas instead of choppas. Every one of these squads NEED a nob + PK. For your Nob squad, get a painboy. You will seriously not regret it. Seriously. And upgrade some of them for powerclaws. My friends usualy nob list is 2 with PK's, 1 Pain boy, and 2 normal nobs. All in the armor which gives 5+ invul. It works pretty well for him.

[Lycan 01]

Does the Boyz kit come with a Nob and Power Klaw, or will I have to get the Nobz kit to have them?

Hm. So... Nobs, Boyz, and Painboy, then? But... If I spend all those points for the extra equipment and stuff, how am I to pay for the Trukks and Looted Wagons ya'll are so greatly encouraging?



Edit:

Btw, do ya'll know when the new Tau Codex supposedly comes out? A friend of mine says he wants to wait for it before he gets into the Tau... Even though he already has the 4th Edition Codex. He heard it comes out in the Summer. Any truth to this?

[Erloas]

Btw, do ya'll know when the new Tau Codex supposedly comes out? A friend of mine says he wants to wait for it before he gets into the Tau... Even though he already has the 4th Edition Codex. He heard it comes out in the Summer. Any truth to this?

At this point anything beyond the Tyranid codex is just speculation. Once a codex is known, such as the case with Tyranids, the next codex is always rumored to be what ever army the person saying the rumor likes. Sometimes you get vague hints from someone at GW at a gamesday, but those were long enough that the hints they were given are what we already know.

Seeing as how the newest codex isn't Space Marines or a varation there of, we can probably assume the next one will be some type of Space Marines, since GW doesn't like going more then 1-2 codexs between a SM variation.

Seriously though, it could very well be a SM variation, CSM is getting a bit old and Chaos is always popular. They might look at Witch Hunters/Deamon Hunters/SOB because they are all old and all primarily metal. Necrons are also in need of an update, and most of the rumors I've heard have been necron related, but they are as much wish-listing as anything. And dark eldar... well they need it but they've probably got another decade left to wait...
I would say Tau have a long wait ahead. Also most Tau units are plastics already, so chances are even with a new codex most models aren't going to get redone. Chances are you will see a bit of change in points and options, and thats about it. Even if you get them now all you will probably be out is $30 for a new codex.



As for your lists... I don't know orks very well. Though you can never really have too many boyz. If you have enough boyz you can do without the trukks because there are too many to kill before they close. Your choice is either go green tide with a lot of boyz or go speed freaks and use smaller units in transports to get them in quickly.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Does the Boyz kit come with a Nob and Power Klaw, or will I have to get the Nobz kit to have them?

Hm. So... Nobs, Boyz, and Painboy, then? But... If I spend all those points for the extra equipment and stuff, how am I to pay for the Trukks and Looted Wagons ya'll are so greatly encouraging?



Edit:

Btw, do ya'll know when the new Tau Codex supposedly comes out? A friend of mine says he wants to wait for it before he gets into the Tau... Even though he already has the 4th Edition Codex. He heard it comes out in the Summer. Any truth to this?

Trukks are cheap, though I can't speak for looted wagons. And even if you decide your list can't afford the 5+ invul and extra power claws, at least go with the painboy. The warboss being in that squad means he is waaaay more useful than he already is.

And I haven't heard anything about a tau codex.