Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[Mattarias, King.]

I guess I'm just not very tactically minded. Also, I thought eviscerators, which count as power fists, couldn't be affected by inish-changing special rules?

..And I think I used up all my "vs. Ork" luck when I defeated an entire ten-squad of boyz in melee and lost only five ladies. That was glorious, however.

[Arcanoi]

Or, you can Act of Faith to have your Eviscerators strike at Initiative 3.
face.

It's explicitly stated in the description of that Act of Faith that it does not work on things that would strike at I1.

On another note, though this may have been said already, when fighting the Orks, ALWAYS take the charge. Most armies are four times better off in melee when they take the charge than when they let the Orks do it. The Orks have HALF the attacks and lower initiative when being charged, while you also get an extra attack.

[Mattarias, King.]

Hmm.. So charge them after a shot from the flamers. Got it. I guess Sisters are better when played with an aggro mindset, rather than midrange. If you don't mind the Magic terminology.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Half the attacks? No.... wrong. Sulgga boyz have 2 attacks base, plus 1 for 2 CCW's. So four attacks on the charge, three on defense.

But yeah, basic rule of thumb: Does the unit have furious charge? Beat them to the punch.

Also.... 2 Land Raiders and a Rhino for Christmas. :D

Khorne Berserker's now be travelin' in style.

[Cheesegear]

It's explicitly stated in the description of that Act of Faith that it does not work on things that would strike at I1.

Wow. It turns out there's a lot of cheating going on in my gaming group...

[Dark Faun]

So, I got January's White Dwarf.

Why does the thought "I don't want to get near Tyranids ever" immediately spring to mind?

[Cheesegear]

Why does the thought "I don't want to get near Tyranids ever" immediately spring to mind?

Not having January's WD;
Are you saying that "If Tyranids were real, they'd be really scary and I'd stay away from them!"

Or "Tyranids look deadly in Assault, I wouldn't get my guys anywhere near them."

Or "I wont go anywhere near them because GW is {making a cash-grab, marketing to fanboys, turning 'Nids into Bling-anids, having a definite and clear Flavour of the Month feel} and this makes them awful and I'll be staying away from such obvious terribadness."

?

[Lycan 01]

I think its a massive dose of options 1 and 2, and a little bit of option 3. They look freaking scary, they look very effective in Assaults and I'd rather not play against them, and they'll be the big "in" thing for awhile.

[Dark Faun]

It's rather a "You play Tyranids? I won't be playing against you. Ever." thing. I mean, to name only one of the huge monsters, the Mawloc's deepstrike comes with a Str 6 AP 2 big template - and it can burrow back into the ground to appear somewhere else with the same effects. And Broodlords are now an upgrade for Genestealer squads. You got it right - you can face up to six Broodlords. Oh, and did I mention you can take three Carnifii for one Heavy Support choice now? How do you feel about dealing with 12 Carnifii running towards you?

[Arcanoi]

Half the attacks? No.... wrong. Sulgga boyz have 2 attacks base, plus 1 for 2 CCW's. So four attacks on the charge, three on defense.

But yeah, basic rule of thumb: Does the unit have furious charge? Beat them to the punch.

Err... What? Slugga Boyz have two base attacks, and do not have two CCWs.... They do, however, have Furious charge, meaning that they have 4 attacks at +I1 on the charge but two attacks on defense...

Wait... Hmm... They've got two attacks on Base Profile, a pistol and CCW, and Furious charge. Shouldn't that mean they get 5 attacks on the charge?

[Dark Faun]

Furious Charge isn't +1 Attack and +1 Initiative, it's +1 Strength and +1 Initiative.

[MountainKing]

Definitely looking into an immolator.

Retributor squads come with all manner of heavy weapon burny goodness, and have the option of starting mounted in an Immolator. Just a thought.

[Cheesegear]

Wait... Hmm... They've got two attacks on Base Profile, a pistol and CCW, and Furious charge. Shouldn't that mean they get 5 attacks on the charge?

2 Base. +1 For Slugga and CCW. +1 for Assaulting (it's only called Charging in WHFB). 4 Attacks. Plus Furious Charge gives bonus to Stength and Initiative. Still, against a properly armoured target (3+ save or better) Orks don't actually do a lot of damage anymore now that Choppas do nothing.
...After the intial charge - if you can survive, that is - Orks become significantly worse.

At least in my experience. However, my experience with Orks has been 'Shoot them with Bolters' rather than 'move forward' like so many people like to do. I think somewhere (I think during 4th Ed at the height of Rhino Rush armies) people forgot that shooting Orks works best. And by the time Orks get to my lines, their Assaults are not really as effective as they could be. The exception being Nob Bikers. They scare the crap out of me. But, I'm told that's not unusual.

Originally posted by MountainKing
Retributor squads come with all manner of heavy weapon burny shooty goodness, and have the option of starting mounted in an Immolator. Just a thought.

Fixed it for you. Retributors are the only reliable source of Heavy Bolters in the entire army. There is no other long-range anti-infantry weapons in the army. Anytime you arm your Retributors without Heavy Bolters; You're doing it wrong.
Retributors are also a source of an FO-free Immolator (the other two Heavy Support choices should always be Exorcists), and Retributors should never get in their Immolator (Unlike Dominions who need the Immolator to be effective at all).
The Immolator can be armed however it wants and should always act as an independent unit (again, unlike Dominions where their vehicle works in tandem with the squad). Like Devastators and Razorbacks. No-one I know (and especially not myself) has ever seriously considered actually transporting Devastators or Retributors.

[Mattarias, King.]

Retributor squads come with all manner of heavy weapon burny goodness, and have the option of starting mounted in an Immolator. Just a thought.

I think you mean dominions. In which case, I like that thought!

Cheese: Yeah, a squad of retributors armed to the teeth with dakka sounds good about now.. Perhaps I can invest this holiday loot wisely, instead of in just what looks cool..

[MountainKing]

Uh, no, I meant what I said. Personally, I load out my Retributors with Multi-meltas; to date, they're second only to my Land Raider for tankbusting effectiveness. I have yet to have any trouble whatsoever in the department of infantry killing (though, perhaps a good bit of that can be attributed to busting transports, which my friend is fond of using).

[Mattarias, King.]

Uh, no, I meant what I said. Personally, I load out my Retributors with Multi-meltas; to date, they're second only to my Land Raider for tankbusting effectiveness. I have yet to have any trouble whatsoever in the department of infantry killing (though, perhaps a good bit of that can be attributed to busting transports, which my friend is fond of using).

Oh. Huh. That works too. Not so much for me though. Very few tanks in my gaming group. A dominion squad with meltas I think should be okay for me. And maybe one with flamers. So many flamers..

Might switch them around depending on who I fight, because I want more seraphim a well. Flying double-flamers into the fight!

[Cheesegear]

Oh. Huh. That works too. Not so much for me though. Very few tanks in my gaming group. A dominion squad with meltas I think should be okay for me.

Seconded. Multi-Meltas might have a better range. But, Dominions drive around in a tank, so, range is somewhat mitigated. Multi-Meltas are also Heavy weapons, so, Retributors jump out of their Immolator and...They stand there for a turn. Meltaguns, being Assault weapons, don't have that problem.

I find a unit of 36" range anti-infantry weapons to be invaluable since Heavy Bolters can't be found in that quantity anywhere else in the army. Celestians can have one. But, they're ostensibly a close combat unit (even though they fail at it) and are generally moving. And Heavy Bolters can be found on Immolators. But, if you're doing that, you're really missing out on the twin Heavy Flamers.
Retributors with Heavy Bolters are anti-infantry.

Tank popping can be done by meltagun Dominons, one of my twin Exorcists, or my Seraphim or from an Immolator with Twin-Linked Multi Melta (I have one, the other two keep their flamers).

[Lycan 01]

W00t w00t! I got 40 bucks today! My Space Marines buddy got a bunch of money, too, which he's using to buy a Tactical Squad, a Master of the Chapter, and a Dark Angels conversion kit. So, I'm let wondering how best to counter this threat...

I'm thinking two Boyz squads. I'll just crush him under my superior numbers. Or, a Boyz squad and a Nob squad, which would give me more numbers and a little bit more oompf.

I considered a Boyz squad and a Trukk... But while the Trukk would be handy, it would only be able to carry 12 Boyz. My melee Boyz are in a team of 20+, so they couldn't fit. Which would only leave the second Boyz team, which is shooty, and doesn't need to be cooped up in a Trukk. Plus, he's got a Rocket Launcher and a Dreadnaught with a Multi-Melta. Those would make short work of the Trukk, where-as they'd be less effective on a swarm, no matter how slow it moves.

Feel free to argue with my logic. But from a tactical standpoint, and considering his weapon strengths, I'm better moving all my guys slowly as a swarm than piling them all into a speeding bullet magnet. Plus, more Boyz would be cheaper, and I think they'd be more effective on the battlefield.


So yeah, two boxes of Boyz, or 1 Boyz and 1 Nobz kit?

I know I'll turn one squad into Shootas. But if I get the second squad, should they be given Shootas and stuck with the first squad to help give cover fire? Or given Choppas and stuck with the original Boyz to make a 30-Ork assault Squad?

[Cheesegear]

Plus, he's got a Rocket Launcher and a Dreadnaught with a Multi-Melta. Those would make short work of the Trukk, where-as they'd be less effective on a swarm, no matter how slow it moves.

Ah. Like most things in the Ork army, Trukks (and just about any other vehicle in existence) only work in large amounts. One Trukk just isn't enough, as anything that can shoot it, will. Ultimately, even a Bolter can take out a Trukk.

So yeah, two boxes of Boyz, or 1 Boyz and 1 Nobz kit?

IIRC, you have the Nobz from AoBR? At low points games, five Nobz are more than enough. They'd be better if you had a Trukk - or even a Battlewagon - but, still. At your points level, you're much better off going with 20 boyz.

I know I'll turn one squad into Shootas. But if I get the second squad, should they be given Shootas and stuck with the first squad to help give cover fire?

It all depends on what else you have. If you make frequent use of Flash Gitz and/or Lootas, Shoota Boyz just aren't needed (unless you want to turn said Shoota Boyz into Flash Gitz - which might be handy against Marines). However, that being said, there are other things you can use your Elite and Heavy Support slots for that might be better - like Dreads, Kans and Wagons.

My friend runs 20 'Ard Shoota Boyz and three or four squads of Slugga Boyz in Trukks (one Trukk isn't good. Four, however, are). It's important to have a solid block of Troops that can sit on an objective and take medium-ish amounts of fire with a 4+ save. Since said squad 'camps' on the objective, said mob has Shootas so they don't need to move a whole lot.
...You're looking at throwing anywhere between 20 to 40 dice on any given turn, depending on how many of your Boyz are in rapid fire range. Seriously. 40 dice...For Ork shooting. Said squad is amazing in Capture & Control missions.

You don't often get more than that in Assault (aside from theoretical tactics, which I pay no attention to), since very rarely have I seen anyone able to cram their 20+ Ork mob into 2" assault range.

Or given Choppas and stuck with the original Boyz to make a 30-Ork assault Squad?

It's not as good as it sounds. A squad that size is saying "Shoot us please. Blast weapons preferred." (however, again, Orks, if you've got two squads that size...) And, you're never going to get that many boyz into the aforementioned 2" assault range.
20-25 boyz are more than enough for sloggers. And these should be split into Trukk squads as soon as possible.

---

In other news, Battle Missions comes out early next year. I know I'm sick and tired of playing the same three games over and over again.

[Arcanoi]

...You're looking at throwing anywhere between 20 to 40 dice on any given turn, depending on how many of your Boyz are in rapid fire range.

Shootas are Assault 2, last time I checked.

[Lycan 01]

Hm. K... So, two Boyz kits, then? Should it be one Shoota, one Slugga? Or should both squads be Shootas? (And stick the second Nob w/ Power Klaw in the original 20-Ork Slugga squad...)

[tribble]

Hm. K... So, two Boyz kits, then? Should it be one Shoota, one Slugga? Or should both squads be Shootas? (And stick the second Nob w/ Power Klaw in the original 20-Ork Slugga squad...)

how big are these squads again? what are you doing with them? a large shoota mob can hold ground, whereas a choppa mob will take it. definitely put the klawnob with the sluggas, shoota mobs shoudn't be gunning for a chance to use it... though it's not a disaster if it happens anyway.

[Lycan 01]

Well, I was thinking that all told, I'd have 30 Slugga Boyz for assaulting and taking ground, and 10 Shoota Boyz for holding ground and providing cover fire.

But Cheesegear seems to think 30 Boyz attacking en masse is a bad idea. Even though statistically, they're going to need massive numbers in their favor, since they'll probably be about 20 Space Marines on the recieving end of the assault.

So yeah... 20 Shootas and 20 Sluggas? Or 30 Sluggas and 10 Shootas?

Or should it be 20 Sluggas to lead the charge and soak up damage, 10 Shootas to provide fire support, and 10 'Ard Slugga Boyz to charge in with the Nobz and Warboss behind the 20 Sluggas Boyz to rip the Space Marines a new one?

[Arcanoi]

Well, I was thinking that all told, I'd have 30 Slugga Boyz for assaulting and taking ground, and 10 Shoota Boyz for holding ground and providing cover fire.

Orks are all about massed troops. Don't bother having a Shoota Squad unless you're going to put twenty Boyz in it.

But Cheesegear seems to think 30 Boyz attacking en masse is a bad idea. Even though statistically, they're going to need massive numbers in their favor, since they'll probably be about 20 Space Marines on the recieving end of the assault.

That's not at all what he's saying. He's saying that two squads of twenty footsloggas will do better than one squad of thirty and one squad of ten. As he said above, while 2 x 20 is better than 1 x 30 + 1 x 10, 3 x 30 will generally do better than 4 x 20 + 1 x 10, and so on.

It's all about what reaches the enemy in a large enough unit to be effective. If you have a squad of 30 and a squad of 10, the enemy is going to focus all his shooty on that one squad, and you're liable to lose more than 20 boyz to dakka, pies, and templates. But if you get 2 squads of 20, you're more likely to get 2 squads of 10+ boyz into Assault.

So yeah... 20 Shootas and 20 Sluggas? Or 30 Sluggas and 10 Shootas?

What do you have right now? If you have no Shootas, get twenty shootas. If you have ten shootas, get ten shootas and 30 Sluggas. If you have twenty shootas, get 20-30 Sluggas and two trukks.

Or should it be 20 Sluggas to lead the charge and soak up damage, 10 Shootas to provide fire support, and 10 'Ard Slugga Boyz to charge in with the Nobz and Warboss behind the 20 Sluggas Boyz to rip the Space Marines a new one?

'Ard Boyz are expensive. That 'Eavy Armor is 2/3 of another boy you could have on the field. Think carefully about where you actually want to commit all those points.

Plus, those 10 'Ard Boyz don't actually hit any harder than 10 regular Boyz, even though they cost the same as 16.67 Boyz, they just last about half again as long.

[tribble]

'Ard Boyz are expensive. That 'Eavy Armor is 2/3 of another boy you could have on the field. Think carefully about where you actually want to commit all those points.

Plus, those 10 'Ard Boyz don't actually hit any harder than 10 regular Boyz, even though they cost the same as 16.67 Boyz, they just last about half again as long.

If you're looking for something tough get meganobs.

in seriousness, I don't know why you would bother with something like that anyway. We have reserves is pretty much the Ork hat. that and beating the stuffing out of things and the imperial stormtrooper marksmanship.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Well, I was thinking that all told, I'd have 30 Slugga Boyz for assaulting and taking ground, and 10 Shoota Boyz for holding ground and providing cover fire.

But Cheesegear seems to think 30 Boyz attacking en masse is a bad idea. Even though statistically, they're going to need massive numbers in their favor, since they'll probably be about 20 Space Marines on the recieving end of the assault.

So yeah... 20 Shootas and 20 Sluggas? Or 30 Sluggas and 10 Shootas?

Or should it be 20 Sluggas to lead the charge and soak up damage, 10 Shootas to provide fire support, and 10 'Ard Slugga Boyz to charge in with the Nobz and Warboss behind the 20 Sluggas Boyz to rip the Space Marines a new one?

2 Squads of 20 is a good idea.

You need to stop thinking that your Shootas should be doing anything different than your sluggas. They should both be assaulting.

[Cheesegear]

Shootas are Assault 2, last time I checked.

Even better.

Well, I was thinking that all told, I'd have 30 Slugga Boyz for assaulting and taking ground, and 10 Shoota Boyz for holding ground and providing cover fire.

30 Slugga Boyz do not take ground. They stomp around the table looking for things to fight. 'Taking Ground' implies moving to one spot and staying still for the remainder of the game. 30 Slugga Boyz are also asking to get shot at.

10 Shoota Boyz are useless and will not hold ground at all and wont survive even one round of shooting partly because of a crappy save and the fact that they wont be Fearless.

But Cheesegear seems to think 30 Boyz attacking en masse is a bad idea. Even though statistically,

That's not what I said at all. And you mention statistics; I tune out. Because that's not how the game works.
"Oh man, 30 Boyz, 4 attacks each on the charge...Oh man, that's like 120 attacks, 120 attacks. This'll be so awesome..."

First; What if you don't Assault (because charging is a WHFB construct)? Hmm? Assault Squads, Seraphim, Hormagaunts, etc. move a lot faster than you do (and may even carry Flamer templates...). Remember, you have to Assault in a straight line, a 'proper' Assault unit is fast and maneuverable and (should) uses cover to their advantage and will be 'unassaultable' and then jump over the terrain on their turn and charge you.
Assaulting is never guaranteed. And Orks suck in combat if they don't charge.

Second; There's a psychology to the game of WH40K that doesn't really exist in the game of WHFB; Big things get shot at. Even a 'regular sized' Slugga Boy unit takes a pounding of Blast weapons, Ordnance and Heavy Bolters. A unit of 30 Boyz, is asking for it. By the end of turn 1, if your opponent is smart and has rolled 'average' dice (he wont have, but, this is theory...) you should be looking to have around 15 left by Turn 2.

Secondly, 30 Boyz will not make it into Assault range. That 2" 'Assault Radius' is something a lot of people forget about. Base size is 'so big' and 20+ models just don't fit in that size of area. Sometimes, even my Ork (and Tyranid) opponents struggle to make it past 12 or 13 models in attack range.

A good size Slugga Boy unit is 20-24. Can take a reasonable amount of shooting against itself, and will likely still have enough boyz to make it viable in Assault when it gets there. Anything more than 25 is just wasted points. Unless you really need that third Big Shoota in the squad.

Or should it be 20 Sluggas to lead the charge and soak up damage, 10 Shootas to provide fire support, and 10 'Ard Slugga Boyz to charge in with the Nobz and Warboss behind the 20 Sluggas Boyz to rip the Space Marines a new one?

Noooooo.....
'Ard Slugga Boyz are not worth it. They just aren't. They're going to get shot at, and their opponents will have power weapons. Your Slugga Boyz will die. Just deal with it. Spending an extra two thirds per model isn't going to change the fact that they're still going to get shot at (in fact, they're going to get shot at more because 'Ard Boyz look bigger, psychology is fun) and your enemy will still have power weapons.

The Nobz and Warboss will not need help. If you do find that your Warboss and Nobz aren't doing so well; You're doing it wrong. But, that may also be because you don't have any Trukks or Battlewagons.

Shoota Boyz - the ones who actually will take objectives - with 'Eavy Armour are worth it, because they wont go down to Bolter fire and can stay where they need to and hold the objective. Wheres Slugga Boyz will not because you'll have the urge to move them off the objective. But, at the end of the day, Shoota Boyz still have two base attacks and Furious Charge, so, in a pinch...

You should take a look at
20-24 Slugga Boyz
16-20 Shoota Boyz (with 'Eavy Armour if possible)
(The values are exact because I'm aware that Lycan 01 only has a finite amount of models)

20:20 would be best. But, if you want to take more or less. I wouldn't. But, if you want...

30:10 just makes two bad squads. 30 Slugga Boyz is bad because you're putting all your eggs in the same basket and the big bad enemy will snap your basket in half and smash your eggs on the ground and laugh at you while you cry.
Unless you have two mobs of 30...That makes all the difference

Spoiler

Show

Granted, when Choppas actually did something back in earlier editions, 30 Boyz was sometimes a good idea. Because winning assault with that many boyz (charging or not) was usually a sure thing. Now, 30 Slugga Boyz just...Isn't that good an idea.

And 10 Shoota Boyz wont do a thing except get shot at, die, and fail their morale checks (and if say, some Bikes or Jetbikes get into rapid fire range - and they will, because Bikes and Jetbikes are fast - they're all dead in one round). 10 Shoota Boyz will also only possess one Big Shoota. One. Lame.

You need to stop thinking that your Shootas should be doing anything different than your sluggas. They should both be assaulting.

In Annhilation maybe. But, in Capture and Control, ('Ard) Shoota Boyz make the perfect garrison unit to sit on the objective in your deployment zone.

I also mentioned in an earlier post that Shoota Boyz churn out 40 dice when shooting. I had forgotten that Shootas are now Assault rather than Rapid Fire like they used to be. So, churn out those 40 Shoota dice. Then, like I said, even a Shoota Boy still has two base attacks and Furious Charge.
(It's because the Choppas do nothing. Sometimes I even wonder why people take slugga boyz at all...)

[Myatar_Panwar]

Shootas also only have an 18" range. They are not the unit you want to leave behind in the headquarters mission, if you can avoid it.

That job is for the 30pt squad of gretchin. If your opponent transversed half of the table to get into bolter fire range, and find that your gretchin are the most profitable unit to shoot at that time, well then chances are that you're already loosing.

[Cheesegear]

That job is for the 30pt squad of gretchin. If your opponent transversed half of the table to get into bolter fire range, and find that your gretchin are the most profitable unit to shoot at that time, well then chances are that you're already loosing.

People use Gretchin now? When did that start happening?

[Myatar_Panwar]

Probably when people realized they could pay the measly points cost to have a free 4+ cover save to screen their boyz with.