Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[hamishspence]

on squad upgrade characters, it might be a holdover from earlier books where the unit was bought one-by-one.

For example:

Orks: Kommandos: "instead of a Nob, one Kommandos mob may be led by Boss Snikrot- 85 points"

Orks: Stormboyz: "instead of a Nob, one Stormboyz mob may be led by Boss Zagstruk- 85 points"

and for Imperial Guard, it follows the same rule of a listed points cost for "replacement characters"- Replace Platoon commander with Commander Chenkov: 50 points

So it looks like, especially in fifth ed, there are examples of "squad upgrade" characters with a points cost listed, rather than "+5 points, +125 pts" etc as is with some of the slightly earlier armies.

[Cheesegear]

So it looks like, especially in fifth ed, there are examples of "squad upgrade" characters with a points cost listed, rather than "+5 points, +125 pts" etc as is with some of the slightly earlier armies.

Space Marines list +X points, as does Space Wolves - the most recent army - and Chaos Daemons do as well.

Which is better for my Shootas vs Space Marines? Rokkit Launchas, or Big Shootas?

To be honest; None of them. Rokkits are AP 3, so, that's good, but, they also only have one shot, and as an Ork, that's bad.
...Big Shootas are the 'better' weapon vs. Marines everything, but, really, that isn't saying much. Look into getting some Burna Boyz who have Power Weapons and KMBs.

Also, how do you best remove paint from plastic model? My SM buddy kinda messed up a couple of his Terminators when he tried to repaint them into Deathwings.

Painting Deathwing (a whole model Bleached Bone) is hard. I don't envy him in the slightest. But, then again, I've been painting Imperial Fists lately, so, I know how he feels.

...Whatever he does, make sure he only tries one model first. Since caustic agents can come in varying strengths depending on what brand you've got lying around the house. Best to try one model first and see how that works, rather than melting your whole batch of Terminators.

Brake Fluid works best. In a matter of minutes. Brake Fluid is caustic and will burn you. So, there is that to look out for. It is guaranteed to work though.
Motor Oil also apparently works.

Rubbing Alcohol will work, if you've got a toothbrush (any kind of brush. But, a toothbrush is specifically designed to get into small details) handy. Butane (lighter fluid) and Ethanol will work as well. But, using these could take a while. It's best to bathe them in whatever (use a glass or glass bowl) and come back in an hour or so with a toothbrush.

...Something called 'Simple Green' will work. It's a degreaser, really, but I'm told SG is common in the US. And something called 'Flash Cleaner' as well...Google tells me that Flash is the brand name, and it's really just a degreaser too.

...Whatever you use, make sure you wash your miniatures in soap and water afterwards. Since residual oils and degreasing agents will play silly buggers with whatever paint you put on next.

[Wraith]

And something called 'Flash Cleaner' as well...Google tells me that Flash is the brand name, and it's really just a degreaser too.

It's a brand of kitchen/bathroom cleaner native to Europe, if that's of any help (I don't know if it's even available in the USA).

All I can recommend is that you only try to bathe your models in paint THINNER and not paint STRIPPER: a lot of my modelling companions will swear by nail polish remover for such a task.
When cleaning up old models I use something called Nitro Mors, which is fine on metal minis but will completely dissolve plastic ones (not to mention, your finger prints...) and quite frankly is a trip to the hospital just waiting to happen

[Lycan 01]

Riiiiight, I think we'll try nail polish remover first. My mom has some that's for getting acrylic paint of of fake plastic nails. Sounds like something that should work - take off acrylic, and doesn't hurt plastic.

Personally, I'd rather not use a substance that can hypothetically hurt me, since I'm danger prone...

[Psychotic]

Riiiiight, I think we'll try nail polish remover first. My mom has some that's for getting acrylic paint of of fake plastic nails. Sounds like something that should work - take off acrylic, and doesn't hurt plastic.

Personally, I'd rather not use a substance that can hypothetically hurt me, since I'm danger prone...

Careful! I had a friend who semi-melted a squad of Fire Warriors with Nail Polish remover (which, ironically enough, did not remove the paint). If you can get a hold of Simple Green, do so since I've found it's the most reliable. Another option is a degreaser similar to Simple Green called Super Clean.

[Cheesegear]

Riiiiight, I think we'll try nail polish remover first. My mom has some that's for getting acrylic paint of of fake plastic nails. Sounds like something that should work - take off acrylic, and doesn't hurt plastic.

Maybe. Nail polish removers come in different strengths. Like I said, it's best to just try one Terminator (or another model that you hate that isn't a Terminator) and see how that works out.

[hamishspence]

Space Marines list +X points, as does Space Wolves - the most recent army - and Chaos Daemons do as well.

Chronos and Sergeant Telion aren't listed as (+X points) but simply (X points) in the army list.

Even though Telion is a Sergeant Replacement.

All the Imperial Guard "replacement characters" are listed in the same way.

On the other hand, the daemons characters and Space Wolves "upgrade characters" are listed as (+ X points)

And they say, instead of "Replace Sergeant with Lukas/Arjac" "One of the squad may be upgraded to Lukas/Arjac" in the case of the Wolves.

Call it a difference of style between Codex writers.

[onasuma]

How did you loose them? Didn't the new codex make carnifexs a 3 for 1 HS choice now? Everything I've read says you can take a lot more carnifexes then you used to be able to.

Yep, and thats nice and all, but all three in each heavy support choice have to be identically equipped. Mine were a classic nidzilla swarm, so were very much not.

[Cheesegear]

Yep, and thats nice and all, but all three in each heavy support choice have to be identically equipped.

Surely you can just separate out and use up all three of your Heavy Support choices like you do with Imperial Guard tanks (having 3 tanks in the same squad when you've still got FO slots to spare is just asking for trouble)?

Or are Carnifii 0-1? That doesn't sound right.

[onasuma]

Currently, I have 6 carnefixes. In this new codex, I can only use three of my current ones, as none are equipped in the same way. Therefore, Ive lost 50% of the army, and the theme is unplayable with what I have.

[Wraith]

Currently, I have 6 carnefixes. In this new codex, I can only use three of my current ones, as none are equipped in the same way. Therefore, Ive lost 50% of the army, and the theme is unplayable with what I have.

Just declare "Counts As" and you'll be fine

So long as your opponent knows what they're armed with, it won't matter unless you try to play in an 'official' tournament.

[Zorg]

Or rotate them and not play the same list every game.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Currently, I have 6 carnefixes. In this new codex, I can only use three of my current ones, as none are equipped in the same way. Therefore, Ive lost 50% of the army, and the theme is unplayable with what I have.

Or you can, you know, take some initiative and start changing your models.

Really, I remove stuff I glued on all the time. Unless you used plastic glue, its not terribly difficult.

If you did use plastic glue.... what were you thinking?

[Wraith]

And even if you did, just invest in a really sharp scalpel.

Even if one of your relatives doesn't have one spare at the bottom of a toolbox somewhere, they're no more than $5 (from a hardware store - GW's are grossly overpriced even by normal standards).

If the worst comes to the worst, take the models' hands off at the wrists and start over. Bitz are cheap and plentiful, especially if you're looking for Tyranid parts just after a new Codex came out with a pile of new plastic kits

[evisiron]

Huh. Latest rules conundrum: Does an Ork bosspole allow the unit to re-roll over and over again?

The Ork Bosspole allows the unit to inflict a wound to re-roll each time they fail a morale test.

According to the AoBR rulebook p2 "no single dice can be re-rolled more than once". However, the bosspole requires you to re-roll all the dice used in test, so it may be exempt.

My instinct wants me to think that since the dice are being re-rolled twice, it shouldn't work, but I think that's been carried across from previous editions where the re-rolling rules were stricter.

The Ork codex phrasing of "Each time a unit with a Boss Pole fails..." certainly makes it sound like multiple tests are expected, but that could just be a poor choice of words.

I believe this was mentioned by cheesegear earlier in the thread, and I place a lot of weight in his logic, though I was hoping this could be discussed/ analyzed a little more. I can't decide a solid answer either way.

As a side note, if an ork dies, is the test taken at the lower unit size?

[Cheesegear]

Or you can, you know, take some initiative and start changing your models.

That's what I was thinking. Many of us have models that have been useless at one stage or another thanks to edition changes. Ask anyone who plays Salamanders or otherwise used rules from 3rd Ed. Index Astartes, or played Relictors or had Leman Russes in their Space Wolf army, or liked having Burnas in his Slugga Boyz, or played Feral Orks, or had 'proper' Lootas, or a Looted Vehicle that wasn't a Leman Russ or played an Armoured Company (Not Armoured Fist, that's different). You can either cry about it. Or start repainting your army and/or taking to it with a knife. Because I've had all those things mentioned happen to me, and I'm still playing.

...Plus, most people recommend magnets for Carnifii rather than glue for this precise reason.

Still, onasuma, all your 'illegal' Carnifii are still legal for Apocalypse. And, my game store has at least one of those every week. So, the games do get played.

Huh. Latest rules conundrum: Does an Ork bosspole allow the unit to re-roll over and over again?

Yes. If you're willing to keep inflicting wounds. At least, we've always played it that way. Since, as you know; Codex trumps rulebook. And the Codex appears to allow you to roll more than once.

Technically, you're not rolling a single dice, so, you could always bring that up. The idea of a Nob just keeping on cracking heads until order is restored is always fun.

As a side note, if an ork dies, is the test taken at the lower unit size?

Depending on whether you take an armour save before or after the Leadership test; If you fail the armour save it means you have a new target number and makes it different Morale test, rather than a re-roll.

[Tren]

Technically, you're not rolling a single dice, so, you could always bring that up.

I'm sorry but that's just shenanigans. The rule simply falls flat if you don't take "one dice" to mean "one particular roll," as opposed to literally being one die. By that logic, say as an Eldar player, I could use Guide to grant my twin-linked missile launcher another re-roll-- because as long as I'm rolling the scatter die plus 2d6, I'm not rolling "one dice." For that matter on twin-linked anything with Guide-- if after the initial re-rolls I still have two misses, I could continue to roll again because I'm not rolling "one dice."

How about "re-roll failed saves?" As long as I'm throwing multiple dice I can just keep re-rolling those failed saves till enough pass that I'm down to one die. Or how about situations where you have "re-roll successful saves" rules conflicting with "re-roll failed saves" rules? So long as multiple dice are being thrown, the two rules can create an infinite loop of forced re-rolls?

Or lets take it to the opposite extreme of language. By saying "no single dice can be re-rolled more than once," GW is telling you you can only ever physically roll an individual die twice. After that second roll you must set it aside and use completely new dice.

GW's not always the best at using technical language. While it may not explicitly say it, I've never known anybody to interpret "one dice" as anything but "one dice roll," in any tournament or informal game I've played in. The alternative is just nonsensical.

[onasuma]

Or you can, you know, take some initiative and start changing your models.

Really, I remove stuff I glued on all the time. Unless you used plastic glue, its not terribly difficult.

If you did use plastic glue.... what were you thinking?

Yes, I can pull apart upwards of 1000 points of models and redo them, but thats something I dont do. Each of those models has a story - one of them scared me, one of them took down a warlord titan (and yes, i do mean warlord), one of them has never lasted past turn 2. Ill start a new nid army, or play it in apocylpse (which are moderatly frequent round my way) but dont ask me to kill Barbra.

[evisiron]

Spoiler

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I'm sorry but that's just shenanigans. The rule simply falls flat if you don't take "one dice" to mean "one particular roll," as opposed to literally being one die. By that logic, say as an Eldar player, I could use Guide to grant my twin-linked missile launcher another re-roll-- because as long as I'm rolling the scatter die plus 2d6, I'm not rolling "one dice." For that matter on twin-linked anything with Guide-- if after the initial re-rolls I still have two misses, I could continue to roll again because I'm not rolling "one dice."

How about "re-roll failed saves?" As long as I'm throwing multiple dice I can just keep re-rolling those failed saves till enough pass that I'm down to one die. Or how about situations where you have "re-roll successful saves" rules conflicting with "re-roll failed saves" rules? So long as multiple dice are being thrown, the two rules can create an infinite loop of forced re-rolls?

Or lets take it to the opposite extreme of language. By saying "no single dice can be re-rolled more than once," GW is telling you you can only ever physically roll an individual die twice. After that second roll you must set it aside and use completely new dice.

GW's not always the best at using technical language. While it may not explicitly say it, I've never known anybody to interpret "one dice" as anything but "one dice roll," in any tournament or informal game I've played in. The alternative is just nonsensical.

(My spoiler for space saving)

Except for the fact that for hits, wounds etc you are supposed to be rolling a single dice each time, but can roll them as a group for the sake of speed. Each to hit roll is a separate entity, where as a single dice from a leadership test is meaningless.
No one is literally discussing rolling a specific dice.

Cheesegear, just to be on the same page, what part of the description are you referring to that trumps the rulebook?
I am guessing the "Each time" part, which makes sense. If it were otherwise, they would likely put "When" or "if", where as "each time" implies multiples.

I literally only have my ork codex with me. If anyone has a codex with a leadership re-roll rule or piece of wargear, could you please post the wording for comparison?

[Cheesegear]

Cheesegear, just to be on the same page, what part of the description are you referring to that trumps the rulebook?
I am guessing the "Each time" part, which makes sense.

Yes. The 'Each Time' part.

Codex: Dark Angels
Deathwing Company Standard/Ravenwing Company Standard/Dark Angels Chapter Banner;
"Any Dark Angels unit within 12" may re-roll failed Morale and Pinning tests."

Codex: Imperial Guard
Regimental Standard
"Any friendly units within 12" re-roll failed Morale and Pinning tests."
Note: Friendly units. Not necessarily Imperial Guard units. The standard works for Sisters and Grey Knights too and any units around if you happen to be playing a 'doubles' game.

Codex: Orks
Bosspole
"Each time a unit fails a Morale test [wound models] to re-roll that Morale test."

The implication that 'each time' includes re-rolls if you read it that way. I have seen it used in this way. Also, note that Bosspoles don't work on Pinning checks.
The GW staff and my local store use it this way, and they're even the ones who told me about it in the first place. So, I'm going to go with what GW will allow me to do.

I'm sorry but that's just shenanigans.

Pretty much. This conversation is all about shenanigans; On how you can deliberately misinterpret the rules in order to give yourself an advantage, which, the wording in Codex: Orks, does actually allow you to do.

[Tren]

Each to hit roll is a separate entity, where as a single dice from a leadership test is meaningless.
No one is literally discussing rolling a specific dice.

You're cherry picking your language though. The rule says "no single dice can be re-rolled more than once," and you're saying that this means literally only individual dice cannot be re-rolled more than once, thus leadership checks (rolled using two dice) are exempt and can be re-rolled ad infinitum. This is despite the fact that the two dice are part of the same "roll" or "entity."

The rule only specifically says "single dice" though. It doesn't say it applies to "rolls" using a single die such as an individual armor save or to-hit roll, just "no single dice can be re-rolled more than once." If you choose to interpret "single dice" to mean "a single roll of the dice" then Leadership based checks aren't exempt--the two dice are clearly part of the same roll/entity/dice event or whatever you want to call it.

If you choose to interpret "single dice" as literally meaning only individual dice cannot be re-rolled as opposed to individual "rolls of the dice" (and thus exempting leadership checks from the limitation on re-rolls) then you're also accepting an interpretation that opens a whole mess of silliness, like I mentioned in my last post.

Now, what I think you're actually arguing is that "single dice" means "rolls of the dice" consisting of only a single die. If that's the case, that's not really supported by a reading of the language. Again, it says "no single dice can be re-rolled more than once," without any regard to what most people would generally think of as a "roll of the dice" such as a leadership check, rolling scatter die, or rolling a unit's to-hit rolls. The only thing expressly stated is "single dice."

For me, I personally think the rule was meant to apply to single "rolls of the dice," whether that is one, two, or three d6. Though the language doesn't expressly say that. But taking the language at it's face value just leads to problems. And anecdotally speaking, I've simply never heard of anyone ever suggesting that leadership checks weren't subject to the re-roll restriction. Not in any tournament settings or amongst anybody's personal games, I've never even heard it suggested before.

I literally only have my ork codex with me. If anyone has a codex with a leadership re-roll rule or piece of wargear, could you please post the wording for comparison?

Codex Space Marines pg. 55

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Any Space Marine unit within 12'' of the Standard Bearer always* re-rolls failed Morale and Pinning tests.

Codex Chaos Space Marines pg. 81

Spoiler

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The unit may re-roll failed morale checks.

[Kzickas]

Does anyone have any advice for space marines in a fight to the death against eldar, 500 - 700 points?

[Tren]

The GW staff and my local store use it this way, and they're even the ones who told me about it in the first place. So, I'm going to go with what GW will allow me to do.

Well, I don't know in your area, but around Chicago redshirts are notorious for not knowing the rules.

Pretty much. This conversation is all about shenanigans; On how you can deliberately misinterpret the rules in order to give yourself an advantage, which, the wording in Codex: Orks, does actually allow you to do.

Fair enough, but I think you (or the staff at your local GW) are placing undue authority in "every time." The SM chapter standard says units "always" re-roll failed checks. Wouldn't that also imply they can roll until they pass? There's already a rule for that, it's called Fearless The other thing is, the precedent in other rules is that if a particular rule in a codex overrides the core rule set in some way, it includes an explicit statement saying so. Boss Poles and Chapter Standards don't specifically tell us to they can keep rolling infinitely. Because they lack express permission, our understanding when we read "every time" or "always" should be that we can re-roll once, but then the rules for re-rolls on pg. 2 of the BRB prevents us from rolling again. (Unless of course you interpret "single dice" to literally mean "single dice" )

[Wraith]

Does anyone have any advice for space marines in a fight to the death against eldar, 500 - 700 points?

Jump him in Close-Combat as soon as possible, and as often as possible.
At 500 points an Eldar Player will struggle to field many Elite options, which are his main Close Combat units, meaning that he will probably fall back on his Troops choices to win.

While Dire Avengers can almost match Space Marines at shooting, the Marines will have the edge in Close Combat and the Marines will trash any Guardians or Rangers that they come across. Consider also taking half a dozen Scouts with Sniper Rifles to take care of any Wraithlords or particularly troublesome HQ Choices that show up, and most other things should fall into line shortly afterwards.

I wouldn't recommend taking Terminators, as they're going to take up a huge chunk of your points in a small game, and in your position I would probably forego any Heavy choices too.
A Predator or Vindicator might be tempting but they'll probably be the prime target for your opponents' Heavy weapons and/or Deep Striking units, so I'd probably prefer to take a cheaper Razorback instead. It'll do pretty much the same job, and won't be such a painful loss if (when) something decides it has to die.

authority in "every time." The SM chapter standard says units "always" re-roll failed checks. Wouldn't that also imply they can roll until they pass?

I concur.

I always interpreted it like this: You are allowed to reroll a failed morale check. If the second roll also fails, you can't try again because it's not a "morale check", it's a "reroll" and the wargear doesn't say that you can reroll a reroll.

[Zorg]

Given all the interesting things Cheesegear is learning about the rules (I think Acts of Faith was the last one) I don't think we can trust how his group plays too much

Also you can never re-roll a single dice. A single die yes, but not a single dice.

[dsmiles]

@Zorg: Thanks for that. I soooooooooooo wanted to be the grammar nazi.

But as far as I know, you can only re-roll once on any check.

[Kzickas]

Jump him in Close-Combat as soon as possible, and as often as possible.
At 500 points an Eldar Player will struggle to field many Elite options, which are his main Close Combat units, meaning that he will probably fall back on his Troops choices to win.

While Dire Avengers can almost match Space Marines at shooting, the Marines will have the edge in Close Combat and the Marines will trash any Guardians or Rangers that they come across. Consider also taking half a dozen Scouts with Sniper Rifles to take care of any Wraithlords or particularly troublesome HQ Choices that show up, and most other things should fall into line shortly afterwards.

I wouldn't recommend taking Terminators, as they're going to take up a huge chunk of your points in a small game, and in your position I would probably forego any Heavy choices too.
A Predator or Vindicator might be tempting but they'll probably be the prime target for your opponents' Heavy weapons and/or Deep Striking units, so I'd probably prefer to take a cheaper Razorback instead. It'll do pretty much the same job, and won't be such a painful loss if (when) something decides it has to die.

My opponent always takes at least one close combat squad, usually either banshees or wraithguards + elrad ultrhan using fortune every turn, those buggers are tough in melee, especially without powerweapons.

last time we played (i won) his army (700 points) was

1 squad dire avengers
1 squad banshees
avatar
1 squad firedragons in waveserpent
fireprism

[Tren]

Also you can never re-roll a single dice. A single die yes, but not a single dice.

@Zorg: Thanks for that. I soooooooooooo wanted to be the grammar nazi.

Hey don't blame me, blame the crazy brits who use dice as a singular and plural :-P

[Zorg]

Well being Australian we say dice for both, I was just being a smart arse

[evisiron]

Also you can never re-roll a single dice. A single die yes, but not a single dice.

Heh, when it comes to GW, leave your correct pluralism at the door.
Bloody "Dwarfs".