Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[Mattarias, King.]

Yes. People seem to think that the new units are totally amazing apparently solely based on the fact that the new models look scary. They are not. The only 5th Ed. Codex that is overpowered is the Imperial Guard.

The new 'Nid army is more balanced than it was before. And people who are currently running double Winged Hive Tyrants and 60-70+ Hormagaunts, plus Carnifii may find their list just a little underpowered.

Arright, thanks. I'll direct my friends over to this thread when they get all up in arms about it again. I think it was the.. Trygon, that got to them the most.

[Cheesegear]

Winged tyrants are currently limited to 0-1. The fact we can have 2 now makes me REALLY happy. Nothing else does much for me, but 2 winged tyrants!

Yeah...Oops. I meant double Hive Tyrants, one with wings.
Resident 'Nid player (I'm now one too!) plays;
Winged Hive Tyrant, double ScyTals...Biomorphs and Psyker powers.
Tyrant with Venom Cannon and Barbed Strangler (MCs can shoot two weapons), plus Biomorphs.

Current edition has increased point values for just about everything for Hive Tyrants. So, that has some deterrent factor. I don't see anything wrong with Warrior Primes, which come at half the points cost. And Tervigons (I believe it's a mash of a Trygon and Carnifex in size and shape) are awesome. Especially in my list (Warriors) where I don't have the little Termagants running around. But, the Tervigon can just make more in his tummy!

[Tren]

Yes. People seem to think that the new units are totally amazing apparently solely based on the fact that the new models look scary.

Anything with six T6 wounds is scary. Especially when it also happens to be a monster in combat and decent at shooting too. And ESPECIALLY when it can be given FNP. I don't know exactly if the tervigon stat lines are true, but if they're even close, an army with tervi troops, a Trygon or two, and Hive Guard will be a nasty nasty army to face. I've heard some people talking matter of fact that either tervigons or Trygon prime's can grant FNP to a unit within range. Can you comment on that, Cheese?

[Cheesegear]

I don't know exactly if the tervigon stat lines are true, but if they're even close, an army with tervi troops, a Trygon or two, and Hive Guard will be a nasty nasty army to face. I've heard some people talking matter of fact that either tervigons or Trygon prime's can grant FNP to a unit within range. Can you comment on that, Cheese?

The only comment I can make, is that sure, there are some very powerful combos to be made, but, it costs a lot of points and currency. You can still make a Nidzilla list (just not out of pure Carnifii) if you're taking minimum Termagants as Troops and then another two Tervigons as Troops, etc.
Yeah, it's powerful, but there are drawbacks. Most obvious being the points cost involved and that those 'OMG AWESOME' lists some of 'those people' are talking about will never even see the light of day.

It's like having two Space Marine Chapter Masters (Chapter Masters aren't even 0-1, think about it) dropping Orbitals each. Three Thunderfire Cannons. And 60 Scouts with Sniper Rifles. With a squad of Sternguard - all armed with Combi-Meltas - in a First Turn Drop Pod. Trade one of the Chapter Masters for a Forge Master with Conversion Beamer on a Bike (for Relentless), and add two Ironclads in Drop Pods.
(Actually, I'm going to write this list just to see if I can make it points-reasonable)

Or having two Warbosses along with 2 squads of Nob Bikers, along with more Nobs and Meganobs in Battlewagons.
Or having triple Monoliths.
Or triple Wraithlords.
Or having the 'Dark Eldar Raider Whore Army'
Or having Imperial Guard Infantry. And doing it right.

Any list can be 'powerful' if you're willing to churn out the cash and pay the extra points and are willing to be a dirty git and have everyone hate you.

[Myatar_Panwar]

I was going to include a Psyker Battle squad in my budding imperial guard army, though I think you guys have made me feel guilty enough without cheesing it out even further.

[Arcanoi]

Speaking of Bikers... I had my first wonderful experience with a Biker Boss escorted by Biker Nobz today. It was wonderful. And by wonderful, I mean Daemons were splattering into immaterial goo left and right.

First turn went well for me. I got my favored deployment, so I got my Bloodthirster, Two princes, Karanak's 8-beast hound squad, and 3 squads of bloodletters out onto the field. We were playing with Minimal cover, and I was relieved at how few boyz I saw on the field, though I eyed the Biker Boss and his squad suspiciously, as well as the six Kans. For a 1500 point game, 70-ish footsloggas didn't seem like all that much. We advanced pretty much uniformly. I lost a few letters to some dakka, but other than that, nothing much happened until the third turn. Third turn, I got my reserves roll, and I thought I had won. I got the rest of my army out on the field and utterly DESTROYED two of his twenty-ish man footslogga squads. The other was tied up in CC with one of my Princes, having lost 5 models and not even wounded the Prince. Then his Kans started shooting. Between them I lost about 20 Bloodletters to the pie shots from all his Grotzookas. Then his Biker Nobz charged by Bloodthirster. And killed him. He inflicted 3 wounds. Lost all of his. It seemed like even the dice were afraid of him after that. I was rolling well EVERYWHERE except wherever his Bikers seemed to be.

I rounded up my forces, killed the last footslogga squad between my Prince and the squad of hounds, and stolidly faced off against his remaining heavies. Two squads of Bloodletters were able to get a charge off on his Bikers. 4 wounds, taking TEN in return. But they stuck around, luckily. My Bloodcrushers killed a Kan in CC, and my other prince killed the gun off another. His turn, his Bikers killed off what was left of my Bloodletters, taking a couple of wounds. The Kans were largely ineffective luckily. I was a bit shocked by what his Bikers has done, killing my HQ and about 20 Bloodletters, so I tried to stick clear of them that turn, so I turned on his remaining Kans and killed two more, my Bloodcrushers killing another one, my first prince finishing the one he had weapon-destroyed, and my last prince taking another weapon off. He was able to charge his bikerz into my Hounds and killed them. Kans inflicted 4 wounds on my crushers, but they hadn't taken a wound before that, so they were fine. We stopped the game there due to time constraints, but DAMN. He list didn't WORK because he was sinking 600 points into his Bikers, but he STILL nearly won because of how much his Kans and Bikers killed.

I HATE those things. And all those pies supply a BASTARD of a Dakka-phase too.

[Zincorium]

@Cheesegear:

Out of curiosity, what would be the equivalent for chaos space marines? Obliterators, lash princes, khorne berserkers?

[Myatar_Panwar]

Lash Princes.

Khorne berserkers and oblits are just good units. Lash princes though.... they are abominations.

[Zincorium]

Hm. Daemon Princes of Slaanesh without Lash of Submission are still good though, right? 'Cause my Emperor's children DP is not getting unconverted at this point.

Then again, I do have 6 obliterators, so I suppose I've already unconsciously made the decision to play hardball when the situation arises. And noise marines with blastmasters- I still can't believe that's a weapon troops choices can use.

[Myatar_Panwar]

I'm nearly certain that a lash of submission is nothing more than a psychic power, and does not actually involve a whip of some kind. If thats what your implying.

And demon princes on their own are already great. If it has wings, even better.

[Cheesegear]

I was going to include a Psyker Battle squad in my budding imperial guard army, though I think you guys have made me feel guilty enough without cheesing it out even further.

*shrug* Without Culexus cheese they're not that unfair. With each kill (at Toughness 3 and 5+ save, eat Bolters) they become less and less effective.

For the price of a basic Psyker squad, you can have three Mortars instead. For the price of a few more Psykers you could have Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters or Lascannons instead.
Me? I'd get Infiltrating Storm Troopers or Ratlings instead. Or Grey Knight Terminators. Yeah, you can get 3 GKTs for around the price of a full-strength Psyker squad.

Out of curiosity, what would be the equivalent for chaos space marines? Obliterators, lash princes, khorne berserkers?

Lash Princes. Always. Take two for extra pleasure fun.
Note: Lash is a Psychic Power and doesn't have to be modeled onto the model

Unfortunately, Chaos Daemons Daemon Princes are nowhere near as good as CSM Daemon Princes. Which doesn't seem right to me, and Daemon Princes can't be used as HQ in CDs. Congrats on making no sense GW.

'Zerkers are just 'good units'. They're not ridiculously powerful every single game. Even in a unit of 20, Ordnance weapons ruins them because they don't have ranged weapons to fight back with.

Units of 20 Possessed (depending on what you get), Thousand Sons, or Noise Marines (with the right weapons) will ruin most people's day. Thousand Sons and Noise Marines should be able to shoot anything to death with their high-strength, low-AP weapons. Even if Noise Marines get assaulted, they have Initiative 5 and strike first most of the time even when assaulted.
If playing Toughness 3 armies, Gift of Chaos becomes that much more powerful. If - by some quirk of Tzeentch - your Champions end up facing Grots, laugh, those terrible, terrible creatures turn into awesome Spawns.

Shooting back at TSs or NMs makes no difference 'cause they're Fearless. Thousand Sons are also invulnerable and therefore shrug off Ordnance weapons.

Something that is regular-game viable however;
5 Noise Marines plus Blastmaster (Strength 8, AP3, Blast, Pinning. I'm sure you can see the applications *drool*) costs 140 points. Have six. This comes to 840 points. One of the 1000 point 'curveball' lists that very few people are prepared to deal with.

Slaanesh remains the 'best' Chaos Power across both Chaos Codecies. Khorne and Tzeentch are second and third depending on preference. With Nurgle being popularly decried as the worst.

Khorne Bikers hurt.

Triple Vindicators, or Triple Defilers (or some comibination of) are generally considered unfair. Another option is Heavy Bolter/Autocannon Havocs and twin Vindicators/Defilers. And are actually points-viable.

9 Obliterators also isn't entirely fair. Especially if you're rocking Plasma Cannons on all of them. Still not quite as powerful as 'just three' Leman Russ Executioners (Hell, take more. But three is more than enough). But, Imperial Guard are considered the most unfair Codex anyway.

Off the top of my head;
30 Noise Marines (and six Blastmasters)
9 Obliterators
2 Lash Princes
~1800 points.
(use the extra 200 points to round out Noise Marines and get other Sonic weapons for the squad/s)

Enjoy your special level of Hell with people who talk in the theater.

[Myatar_Panwar]

What? How do any heavy weapons squad compare to a PBS. Its a measly 100 point unit which can reduce any units leadership to two. Sure you can hurt them, but you can say that about any unit.

Its like 10 points a model for a squad which can release battle cannon equivalent large blasts or just force a squad to run off the table.

They can even take a chimera.

And storm troopers arn't that great. Woop-dee do. We've got ap3 las guns with less range and we cost more than your average space marine!

Hell, lets compare, shall we, bolter fire to hot-shot-las fire. 10 bolters against a squad of storm troopers: 6.66 hits, 4.3 wounds, they save two of them.

10 hot-shot-las: 6.66 hits, 2 kills.

I know you hate doing statistics, but its nice to put it in perspective.

edit: And I'm not trying to say that they are terrible or anything, but they certainly are not an amazing unit. I would definitely perfer a psyker squad to a storm-trooper squad. And I do agree that ratlings are awesome.

[Cheesegear]

What? How do any heavy weapons squad compare to a PBS. Its a measly 100 point unit which can reduce any units leadership to two. Sure you can hurt them, but you can say that about any unit.

It's just that your amazing S10 Large Blast becomes...Less good as the game goes on and they start dying. As they are woefully susceptible to Bolter fire, this will happen.

Weaken Resolve is amazing (but, most games I've played against them, they don't use it...I'm not sure why). If you've got Mortars and Heavy Bolters lined up (and you should), yes, you can force pinning checks and breaking units.

Taking them in a Chimera is nearly a must.

10 bolters vs. storm troopers: 6.66 hits, 4.3 wounds, they save two of them. 2 dead.
10 Hot-Shot Lasguns vs. Marines: 6.66 hits, 2 dead.

I know you hate doing statistics, but its nice to put it in perspective.

So, really, they end up doing the same amount of damage? Still, you're right. I vastly prefer Ratlings and GKTs to Storm Troopers. And I do hate statistics because that's not how the game works. Still...

Also, since you play Chaos Myatar, any thoughts on my analysis of the 'more unfair' units of the 'dex?

[hamishspence]

I think Defilers got a reputation as a "must have" early on- but probably aren't that much better than other heavy support choices.

On Chaos Daemons- my guess is with 8 HQs, not counting special characters, they wanted to give princes a place in the list where they would have less competition.

Problem is the Soul Grinders still overshadow them a bit.

[Cheesegear]

Problem is the Soul Grinders still overshadow [Daemon Princes] a bit.

...Just a bit...

[hamishspence]

Under what circumstances would the abilities of a Daemon Prince, be useful enough to justify taking one over a Soul Grinder?

My guess is, that when points are short, it might make a good option to round off a list, but I'm not sure where else it would be a good choice.

Maybe its flight, and powers, would sometimes be situationally more useful?

[Arcanoi]

Cheaper, too. Both in money and in points. It's why I use them. Not to mention they STILL have very nice starting stats. People recommended them to me a few months back because they draw ALOT of fire and are much more survivable than Bloodletters.

[Selrahc]

Daemon Princes are good. For 80 point models they are very dangerous. I love them, if just for the amount of firepower they draw away from other parts of the force.

Soulgrinders are going to be a beacon for every antitank weapon the opponent owns. In my experience at least they get broken on the first turn they drop in. The same thing normally happens to the Daemon Prince, but for the same cost as one soul grinder you can get two princes. Is one shot worth 80 points? I would generally think not.

Slaanesh remains the 'best' Chaos Power across both Chaos Codecies. Khorne and Tzeentch are second and third depending on preference.

I would have completely agreed with that back before rending rules changed. Now I'd say that Slaneesh units suffer against MEQ lists, and MEQ lists are fairly abundant.

I did some greater daemon experimenting too and I've got to say that I don't think the Bloodthirster is bad at all. Wings mean he can hide out of sight after the deep strike, while the Keeper of Secrets needs to stay a lot closer to the enemy in order to get the charge. The Bloodthirsters is also a fair bit more survivable (The 10 WS means that marines need a 5+ to hit rather than a 4. Helped a lot against a unit of assault terminators)

Slaanesh has a lot of good points and is a *lot* better at horde mashing than Khorne but I'm not sure it is so cut and dried as to be able to say that Slaanesh is the best.

[DaedalusMkV]

9 Obliterators also isn't entirely fair. Especially if you're rocking Plasma Cannons on all of them. Still not quite as powerful as 'just three' Leman Russ Executioners (Hell, take more. But three is more than enough). But, Imperial Guard are considered the most unfair Codex anyway.

Sorry, but considered the most unfair by who? You? Your close circle of friends? That one guy at your hobby shop? IG are not considered the most unfair codex by most of the 40k community, that would be Orks. Hell, the IG book is usually given a lot of praise for being quite well balanced both internally and externally. I'd put it in the top five as far as power goes, but it's nowhere near as devestating as the CSM or Ork books, and both Space Marines and Space Wolves are capable of producing more powerful competitive lists. I think you're confusing "hard to make a really bad list with due to internal balance" with "overpowered and broken", really.

[crazedloon]

Or having the 'Dark Eldar Raider Whore Army'

just to note the fact that the above is 1 of the 2 only viable lists for DE and the second (webgate) is far worse IMHO

[Myatar_Panwar]

So, really, they end up doing the same amount of damage?

Doing the same ammount of damage against a single enemy, unfortunately. They are a one-trick pony, and they don't even really excel at what they do.

If you want an infiltrating unit to just throw to the wolfs and kill something, take Marbo. Not actually infiltration, but 1" from an enemy reserve play is amazing. And with that demo charge tucked away, he will kill something.

Also, since you play Chaos Myatar, any thoughts on my analysis of the 'more unfair' units of the 'dex?

I think most people abuse the lash in different ways than you presented. Usually 1-3 defilers and vindicators, and khorne berserkers. Get them closer to your khorneys, just in case they survive the template onslaught you are about to put them through now that they are in nice little compacted circles.

[Cheesegear]

And with that demo charge tucked away, he will kill something.

False. I've had him twice kill nothing. Because that's the way the game works. And I hate Special Characters anyway.

I think most people abuse the lash in different ways than you presented. Usually 1-3 defilers and vindicators, and khorne berserkers. Get them closer to your khorneys, just in case they survive the template onslaught you are about to put them through now that they are in nice little compacted circles.

Huh, well, I didn't really present the Lash in any form. Because I think the applications of it are obvious. Move a squad out of cover (preferably towards yourself). Move a Heavy weapons squad out of LoS of anything in your army. Put an Assaulting squad into difficult terrain that they can't get out of. etc.
(Chaos Daemons get Pavane of Slaanesh, which is like the Lash, but only 1d6 instead of 2d6).
And yeah, move the unit into a compact, tight circle ready for Blastmaster (because we are playing Slaanesh) action.

I think the difference is that I prefer Noise Marines or Thousand Sons to Berserkers.

just to note the fact that the above is 1 of the 2 only viable lists for DE and the second (webgate) is far worse IMHO

Huh? The DE Raider Whore Army uses Webway Portals as well.

[Raroy]

@Cheesegear Whore army? Is that a typo or is there something you aren't telling us?

Anyway, if I was to ever play 40k, I'd play Imperial guard. But, I heard that they are the most expensive army, and take up the most time (I don't mind the later). I also heard that they are overpowered. How so?

[Falgorn]

@Cheesegear Whore army? Is that a typo or is there something you aren't telling us?

Anyway, if I was to ever play 40k, I'd play Imperial guard. But, I heard that they are the most expensive army, and take up the most time (I don't mind the later). I also heard that they are overpowered. How so?

From what I've heard, you basically just need a ton of soldiers with flashlights and t-shirts Lasguns and Flak Jackets to take the heat.
Meanwhile, you pump artillery at the other army.

At least, that's what I've heard.


Also, what would be a good way to start a Tau army?

[Cheesegear]

Anyway, if I was to ever play 40k, I'd play Imperial guard. But, I heard that they are the most expensive army, and take up the most time (I don't mind the latter). I also heard that they are overpowered. How so?

Infantry that come 5-to-a-slot, and cheap(ish) tanks that come 3-to-a-slot.

You have a lot of units, each with Heavy Weapons that are cheap in points and all them are scoring. You can give them Mortars and Rifles to cause Pinning.
15 Mortars (Barrage = Pinning, no need for LoS) only costs 350 points. And is only part of one Troops selection, and all five units (of 3 Mortars each) count as scoring.
Officers can give Orders. These are awesome.

Leman Russes can do pretty much whatever you want. And you can have 3 in the same slot. Leman Russes can also move and shoot their main turret weapon and for what they can do, they are underpoints'd.

Honestly, you can have an inexpensive army. But, it wont be overpowered. The Battleforce is either a HQ and 2 Troops, plus Sentinel. Or, 1 minimum Troops choice plus Sentinel.
Yeah, 25 men, in three different squads, for about 200 points. Multiply this by 5. In 1000 points, you have roughly over 100 models on the board (depending on how much other stuff-not-Infantry you want). Consisting on 1 HQ and 2 Troops. And ten - or more - Heavy Weapons on the board. Yeah, your minimum FO chart costs 1000 points.

My 1500 point list has over 150 models on the board (this does cost money). My opponent can never kill that many models and never even comes close to beating me. My IG stand at 8 wins and 0 losses and one won tournament (which is another five wins).

Also, what would be a good way to start a Tau army?

The Battlefoce is...Reasonable. But, replace the Kroot as quickly as you can. Saying 'the Kroot are better in Assault than the Tau' is not actually saying much. All the points you spend on Kroot is less points you're spending on Fire Warriors. You might also think about making the Devilfish Army of Doom. Basically Fire Warriors and Devilfish. But more. No. More than that.
Flesh out your Crisis Team
Add a Leader (before you get the Leader model, one of your Crisis Suits will serve for a while, y'know, in case you're one of those people short on cash)
Hammerhead
Piranhas are kind of fun. But, I absolutely love Space Marine Land Speeders. So, I'm a tad warped in this regard. Everyone 'not me' seems to hate Speeders and Piranhas.

This should all be plastic.

[Myatar_Panwar]

15 Mortars (Barrage = Pinning, no need for LoS) only costs 350 points. And is only part of one Troops selection, and all five units (of 3 Mortars each) count as scoring.

15 mortars are only 300 points, fyi.

And here is the current 1500 points list I am building on, if anyone wants to comment:

Spoiler

Show

HQ: Platoon Command Squad, Regimental Standard, Las Cannon: 85

Elite: Ratlings x10: 100

Troops: Infantry Platoon: 655
-Command Squad, Auto Cannon, 2x Snipers: 50
-Infantry Squad, Auto Cannon, Flamer, Vox Caster, Commissar w/ Power Sword: 115
-Infantry Squad, Auto Cannon, Flamer, Vox Caster: 70
-Infantry Squad, Auto Cannon, Flamer: 65
-Infantry Squad, Auto Cannon, Flamer: 65
-Infantry Squad, Auto Cannon, Flamer: 65
-Heavy Weapons Squad, Las Cannons: 105
-Heavy Weapons Squad, Las Cannons: 105
-Heavy Weapons Squad, Mortars: 60

Infantry Platoon: 405
-Command Squad, 3x Flamers, 1x Heavy Flamer, Power Fist: 80
-Infantry Squad, Flamer, Vox Caster, Power Weapon: 70
-Infantry Squad, Flamer, Power Weapon: 65
-Infantry Squad, Flamer, Power Weapon: 65
-Infantry Squad, Melta Gun, Vox Caster: 65
-Infantry Squad, Melta Gun: 60

Fast Attack: 2x Scout sentinals w/ Multi-lasers and hunter-killer missiles: 90

Heavy Support: Death-strike missile launcher: 160

TOTAL: 1550

Basic idea behind the army is that the first platoon will combine squads into two groups of 30 and 20, or one giant group of 50. These will be used to hold one, or more, objectives, using their girth to stop the enemy. The auto cannons will be used for light transport killing during the first round or two.

Second platoon is just general fire power and objective takers. They will be moving most of the game to get in a good position for taking objectives, and will be combined to match gametype and opponent.

Las Cannons and mortars are self-explanatory.

Scout sentinels will outflank and attempt to either take out rear armor, or defeat any shooty squads the enemy leaves behind (lootas and devastators mostly).

Deathstrike missile is just for fun, and because I enjoy modeling things. Once I figure out how I'm going to make a Manticore, I'll probably replace it with that.

[dsmiles]

Piranhas are kind of fun. But, I absolutely love Space Marine Land Speeders. So, I'm a tad warped in this regard. Everyone 'not me' seems to hate Speeders and Piranhas.

To expand on this: Make sure that all of your piranhas (all of them, mind you) take the "flechette discharger" vehicle upgrade. It will give you the most bang for your buck (points-wise).

EDIT: And as far as Fire Warriors go, ensure that you switch out about half of their pulse rifles for pulse carbines. Pinning is good.

@Cheesegear: Piranhas are awesome as a fast attack choice. I have to agree with you, though. Most people don't see this...

[Cheesegear]

And here is the current 1500 points list I am building on, if anyone wants to comment:

...Ah Guard...Right, let's do this...

Spoiler

Show

HQ: Platoon Command Squad, Regimental Standard, Las Cannon: 85

Okay, I guess. I'd drop the Lascannon for a Master of Ordnance. By far a better choice. Or get both. Find points for a Vox Caster and then Chimera. Probably by dropping the Standard (the Standard doesn't work if it's not actually on the board). IMO this is your Command Squad. Get a Medic.

Elite: Ratlings x10: 100

Always good.

Troops: Infantry Platoon: 655
-Command Squad, Auto Cannon, 2x Snipers: 50
-Infantry Squad, Auto Cannon, Flamer, Vox Caster, Commissar w/ Power Sword: 115
-Infantry Squad, Auto Cannon, Flamer, Vox Caster: 70
-Infantry Squad, Auto Cannon, Flamer: 65
-Infantry Squad, Auto Cannon, Flamer: 65
-Infantry Squad, Auto Cannon, Flamer: 65

...Your Command Squad needs a Vox. Otherwise it's pointless. Page 71
If an officer is attempting to issue an order to a friendly unit and both the officer's Command Squad and the chosen unit contain a model with a vox-caster...

On the Command Squad, I'd also drop the Autocannon for a Mortar. Capitalise on Pinning checks. To that end, I'm not a fan of putting long-range and close-assault weapons in the same unit (one of the reasons I hate Tactical Squads with a Missile Launcher and Flamer). Change the Flamers to Grenade Launchers or Plasmaguns. Or drop the Autocannons. Or something. The sages believe that only the following shall ever be used in Infantry Squads;

Missile Launcher and [Plasmagun or Grenade Launcher]
Heavy Bolter and Grenade Launcher
Autocannon and Plasmagun
Lascannon and Plasmagun

-Heavy Weapons Squad, Las Cannons: 105
-Heavy Weapons Squad, Las Cannons: 105
-Heavy Weapons Squad, Mortars: 60

...Nnnng...I maintain that HWSs should only ever contain Mortars. Think about using those 210 points for a Vendetta (try and find the points for two). Otherwise use the 85 points to get special weapons squads with Rifles (capitalise on Pinning checks). Or Hell, another unit of Mortars. So you should end up having 12 Mortars with 15 points to go to a Command Chimera or something.
Or grab a second unit of Ratlings. Or something.

Infantry Platoon: 405
-Command Squad, 3x Flamers, 1x Heavy Flamer, Power Fist: 80
-Infantry Squad, Flamer, Vox Caster, Power Weapon: 70
-Infantry Squad, Flamer, Power Weapon: 65
-Infantry Squad, Flamer, Power Weapon: 65
-Infantry Squad, Melta Gun, Vox Caster: 65
-Infantry Squad, Melta Gun: 60

Once again, the Command Squad needs a Vox too. Otherwise none of them work. I also hate Flamers so very, very much. Because unless they're attached to Sisters of Battle (and therefore count as Rending Flamers), they're kind of...Not that good.

I question the sanity of intentionally running your Guardsmen into Assault. But, if you know that this works (Guardsmen are not Berserkers), well, more power to you. Remember that outnumbering means nothing anymore. And all that matters is wounds inflicted. Also remember that only models in the 2" zone get attacks. Imperial Guard with Combine Squads get the same problem as Orks and Tyranids in that that many models don't fit in Assault.
Also, remember how 'slightly unfair' Sweeping Advances are. If you lose combat and run (which is likely) all your models will die from one Berserker.

Fast Attack: 2x Scout sentinals w/ Multi-lasers and hunter-killer missiles: 90

Sentinels don't scale well. 500 point game? Fantastic. 1000...Okay, I guess...If you've got lots. 1500+ Sentinels start being outclassed by well just about everything. Here is where you can find points for a second Vendetta if you're up for it.

Heavy Support: Death-strike missile launcher: 160

Just one tank? One? Don't you know the rule? They left it out of the main rulebook in the Vehicles section, but, it was a significant oversight that all players need to know;
If your army contains only one model that has an Armour Value greater than 12 on any side, it gains a unique ability for that game. This ability is called 'Dead by Turn 2'. As all the opposing army's anti-tank weaponry will focus on this one model.

Scout sentinels will outflank and attempt to either take out rear armor, or defeat any shooty squads the enemy leaves behind (lootas and devastators mostly).

Wait...What!? You're pitting Sentinels vs. Devastators and Lootas? If you don't destroy those units on the turn you arrive, your Sentinels are dead. No questions.

Deathstrike missile is just for fun, and because I enjoy modeling things. Once I figure out how I'm going to make a Manticore, I'll probably replace it with that.

*Looks at Deathstrike Missile Launcher*...*Looks at Medusa tanks*...*Looks at Griffon tanks and their points cost*...*Looks at any Leman Russ*...

Wait...And Deathstrikes are your tank of choice? Really?
I can understand wanting to model one...But actually use one?

...Still, it's nice to see that you've got your Infantry out and in 'proper' numbers (100+). Even with sub-optimal weapon loadouts on your men, your opponent can only kill so many per turn.

If anything, you must have Voxes in your Command Squads. Otherwise don't have any at all. Otherwise, feel free to ignore me and play what you like.

Originally post by dsmiles
To expand on this: Make sure that all of your piranhas (all of them, mind you) take the "flechette discharger" vehicle upgrade. It will give you the most bang for your buck (points-wise).

Is that the one that's S3, AP1 Large Blast? I think it may've been coming from the Crisis Suits...I don't know. Whatever it was scared the crap out of me. Lucky my Marines are T5 and he needed 6s to wound.

@Cheesegear: Piranhas are awesome as a fast attack choice. I have to agree with you, though. Most people don't see this...

I think it might just be my play-style. But, I swear by my Land Speeders (and I'm pretty sure Piranhas are just the Tau equivalent). My Land Speeders consistently are 'Model/s of the Match'. But, most Space Marine players never use Land Speeders. And I can't figure out why because now I never leave home without at least two (I have six, one of which is a 'Sammael' variant of doom).

Fluff digression

Spoiler

Show

Made even more awesome when I read the tiny amount of official fluff that pertains to my Chapter; The Hawk Lords. First, Hawk Lords are purple, which is my favourite colour {I'm not afraid to admit it}, and then Hawk Lords turn out to be the best Land Speeder pilots around. Awesome.

[Arcanoi]

Spoiler

Show

HQ: Platoon Command Squad, Regimental Standard, Las Cannon: 85

Elite: Ratlings x10: 100

Troops: Infantry Platoon: 655
-Command Squad, Auto Cannon, 2x Snipers: 50
-Infantry Squad, Auto Cannon, Flamer, Vox Caster, Commissar w/ Power Sword: 115
-Infantry Squad, Auto Cannon, Flamer, Vox Caster: 70
-Infantry Squad, Auto Cannon, Flamer: 65
-Infantry Squad, Auto Cannon, Flamer: 65
-Infantry Squad, Auto Cannon, Flamer: 65
-Heavy Weapons Squad, Las Cannons: 105
-Heavy Weapons Squad, Las Cannons: 105
-Heavy Weapons Squad, Mortars: 60

Infantry Platoon: 405
-Command Squad, 3x Flamers, 1x Heavy Flamer, Power Fist: 80
-Infantry Squad, Flamer, Vox Caster, Power Weapon: 70
-Infantry Squad, Flamer, Power Weapon: 65
-Infantry Squad, Flamer, Power Weapon: 65
-Infantry Squad, Melta Gun, Vox Caster: 65
-Infantry Squad, Melta Gun: 60

Fast Attack: 2x Scout sentinals w/ Multi-lasers and hunter-killer missiles: 90

Heavy Support: Death-strike missile launcher: 160

TOTAL: 1550

Okay, first of all, 1550 points is ILLEGAL for 1500 points. Generally, going over more than 1 or 2 points is disallowed, because it means you're blatantly attempting to fit in more units or wargear.

Second, Guardsmen, as a rule, do not do well in assault. They die, and horribly. And then rout, and then get swept. If you REALLY NEED some CC, get Penal Legion Troopers. I find Ogryns to be overpriced, but Penal Legionaires can do pretty well with one of their special abilities... and you get 6 of them per Ogryn.

Sentinels, as Cheesegear said, do not scale well, as they don't have enough fire power or armor to justify themselves.

Don't mix and match weapons. As the thread has said before, a unit designed to do everything will usually fail to do anything. You can't say 'Oh, with both an Autocannon and a flamer (Which are bad for anyone except Tau Crisis Suits and Sisters anyway), my guardsmen can counter both infantry AND light vehicles!' because you won't be able to shoot at both. Not to mention, if you're the one going to be assaulted next turn, you're better off rapidfiring than you are running up to flamer-blast your opponent.

I'm not quite so vehemently opposed to Lascannons in HWS as they can do well, particularly against transport-rush armies, and once those are dead, they can start hitting your opponent's high-save units. Mortars are also good, however. I am, however, opposed to Autocannon squads.

As for Tanks, you need some here. If you opponent has anything high-strength and long-ranged, he's going to target that S10 AP1 LBT sitting right in the middle of your lines and drop the template on top of your army.

Need a command Chimera. Anything that makes Orders better makes you entire army better.

[dsmiles]

Is that the one that's S3, AP1 Large Blast? I think it may've been coming from the Crisis Suits...I don't know. Whatever it was scared the crap out of me. Lucky my Marines are T5 and he needed 6s to wound.

Flechette dischargers are the ones that wounds any model on a 4+ (saves allowed) if a unit attacks the discharging vehicle in close combat (before attacks are resolved).

I don't see any S3 AP1 in the Tau armory. The Cyclic Ion Blaster is the closest at S3 AP4 or the Fusion Blaster at S8 AP1 (Melta).