Warhammer 40K Tactics IV - The Enemy of Your Enemy is Still Your Enemy.

[crazedloon]

He's still a WS 10 S6 T6 W4?5? Monstrous Creature with +3/+4 saves, AND a BS6? melta on top of that. I've always found the Avatar extremely effective, especially in low-point games when in all likelihood, he's the only MC on the field. He's only 65 points over your Autarch, and a great deal more effective at... just about everything. Just about the only thing the Avatar is missing is wings.

I am quoting this only because it is very true. Also to add the fact he is immune to melta weapons which will more than likely be the main "heavy" weapons used at low points due to their portability, and he becomes a monster that is a pain to kill. At higher points is where I feel he less useful.

You have to consider the competition. Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Harlequins, Wraithguard... these are all great units to have as well. If I was playing Eldar (and I well might, at some point, if I ever grow tired of Chaos), I'd have trouble deciding what to get for my very limited Elite slots, too.

well it comes down to what you can expect to fight however:

wraithguard are to pricey to field in the same slot as a small unit of fire dragons (which is what has been taken) you end up with too few models which can sit in one place a good portion of the game if you are not lucky.

striking scorpions are less versatile than the firedragons with a less potent hit and act more as a strong roadblock than game ender and that is what your elite spots should have.

Howling banshees are a very good unit and arguably can replace the dragons should you not expect to much armor, however in the long run they are less versatile due to their effectiveness only against infantry and with the lack of heavy weapons to take out armor that can hurt.

Harlequins like the banshee can replace the dragons without loosing too much however they require some pricey upgrades to really be a threat, however without the transport you should have the points and the quins can drop the smack down if need be.

[Lycan 01]

WOOHOO!! New Killa Kans and Deff Dread kits are being released early March! And boy, do they look sexy!


Oooooh... Normally Kans are 20-some-odd bucks, but now you can get 3 for $45? And the new Deff Dread is plastic and just 50 dollars? SWEETNESS!!

[MountainKing]

So, I'm working on saving up some money for real minis (I play on Vassal; not the same) to really get started in this delightful hobby, and I just wanted to do a quick check on thoughts here. I know I want to have Orks (Green is best!), and I am rather fond of Space Marines. SO, I'm thinking that I'll put away enough green stuff (the paper kind) for the Battleforce AND AoBR; if I'm going to do this (and I want to!), then damnit, I'm going all in.

HOWEVER. It has been brought up many a time that the Space Marine half of AoBR is WOEFUL compared to the Ork half... so what I'm wondering are the following:

- If I get the Ork Battleforce and AoBR, it seems I'll be reasonably set for a starting Ork army. When I go deeper into the rabbit hole, will getting the Space Marine Battleforce and combining it with the SM half of AoBR get me the same degree of "Well prepared beginner" that the Ork side gets?

- I won't ask what brands of paints are best, as therein lies opinions, but I would like to know this: would I be better off with just a starter painting kit, or buying specific colors? Further, would both of those options combined be even better?

- I... have no artistic talent when it comes to drawing... but I have (I think) an eye for detail, and a burning desire to learn. That being said, what are some of your favorite miniature painting tutorials? Would watching Bob Ross re-runs help me at all?

[Winterwind]

- I won't ask what brands of paints are best, as therein lies opinions, but I would like to know this: would I be better off with just a starter painting kit, or buying specific colors? Further, would both of those options combined be even better?

I don't know about the US, but here, there is a special offer for AoBR and starter kit combined, which makes it definitely worth it (doubly so as the starter kit not only includes paints and brush, but also glues, clippers, sand, grass...).
Other than that though, I'd say buying the paints seperately is a better way to go, since no kit contains all the colours you would want. Just a very small part thereof, in all likelihood.
Getting the wash kit, on the other hand, would be very, very recommendable.

- I... have no artistic talent when it comes to drawing... but I have (I think) an eye for detail, and a burning desire to learn. That being said, what are some of your favorite miniature painting tutorials? Would watching Bob Ross re-runs help me at all?

Personally, I like asking the wonderful people in the models thread whenever I have a question.
Zorg and Erloas have been the most helpful with all of my newbish requests so far.

[MountainKing]

I don't know about the US, but here, there is a special offer for AoBR and starter kit combined, which makes it definitely worth it (doubly so as the starter kit not only includes paints and brush, but also glues, clippers, sand, grass...).
Other than that though, I'd say buying the paints seperately is a better way to go, since no kit contains all the colours you would want. Just a very small part thereof, in all likelihood.
Getting the wash kit, on the other hand, would be very, very recommendable.

Personally, I like asking the wonderful people in the models thread whenever I have a question.
Zorg and Erloas have been the most helpful with all of my newbish requests so far.

Just looking at GW's website, I don't know if we have such an awesome thing here in the US, but then again, I haven't been to a GW yet. I don't have the money just yet; be about a month, maybe month and a half before I have it all together.

As for that, I do believe I'll go back and re-read the stuff previously posted, especially by Zorg. I noticed they have a minis blog, which might have even more awesome information. Not sure, but I'll be finding out later tonight. For now, I'm off to my fitness evaluation!

[One Step Two]

Well, my army list caused a minor tangent, I should be happy.

Something I think people may have missed is that the Dragons will be fielded inside a Wave-Serpent, and it's job in this format is more to clear out objectives, with a slightly higher priority on busting tanks that may be threatening my ability to hold those objectives.

Re: Avatar in small point games:

Yes, those point's are all very good, but there is another Eldar player in the small point format annihilation competition who fields an Avatar, I and other players have ran rings around it. In objective based games I imagine I will have a few more stationary targets, but I would rather a speedy mobile unit of hurt than a single Model that can be pinged down by sniper fire.

But I will mull it over when I have my codex in hand.

[Winterwind]

Yes, those point's are all very good, but there is another Eldar player in the small point format annihilation competition who fields an Avatar, I and other players have ran rings around it. In objective based games I imagine I will have a few more stationary targets, but I would rather a speedy mobile unit of hurt than a single Model that can be pinged down by sniper fire.

But I will mull it over when I have my codex in hand.

An Avatar is Fearless, it cannot be pinned down.

[One Step Two]

An Avatar is Fearless, it cannot be pinned down.

Pinged, not pinned. I iced the opposing enemy avatar with sniper fire, I didn't pin him as much force him to take armour (and invulnreble) saves constantly with shots that didn't care a whit for T6 over three turns.

[Arcanoi]

Pinged, not pinned. I iced the opposing enemy avatar with sniper fire, I didn't pin him as much force him to take armour (and invulnreble) saves constantly with shots that didn't care a whit for T6 over three turns.

If your avatar is taking fifty Sniper shots over the course of three turns, then I think he's serving his purpose quite admirably, and exhausting the shots from at least 200 points worth of models for most of a game.

[One Step Two]

If your avatar is taking fifty Sniper shots over the course of three turns, then I think he's serving his purpose quite admirably, and exhausting the shots from at least 200 points worth of models for most of a game.

Very true. But I took one down with 5, they were eldar pathfinders, but still a good point.

[crazedloon]

that also may be due to poor model deployment. The avatar should hug cover until the final 12" of movement and should spend a good portion of the game running during the shooting phase which should put him within 12" in 2 turns max (i.e. assaulting turn 3) unless your opponent has deployed on the very edge of the table

[Arcanoi]

Very true. But I took one down with 5, they were eldar pathfinders, but still a good point.

Well, that's quite statistically impressive, since you should still be missing 2/3 of your shots, half of your hits shouldn't be wounding, and more than half of those should be saved. Even if you're not fond of Mathhamer, that's like expecting Guardsmen to beat Terminators in CC.

You should NOT be afraid of your Avatar dying at 750 points. The few things that can kill him straight up (Namely, a Hive Tyrant, a Bloodthirster, a Pair of Princes, Etc) are far more expensive and unlikely to be encountered in 750 points. If you lose your Avatar, it's likely due to your enemy recklessly focusing most of his firepower on it. Avatar almost always earn their points in small games. And he'll definitely earn it better than your T3 Autarch.

TANGENT: Has anyone ever explored the Phoenix Lords? How do they do?

[One Step Two]

Well, that's quite statistically impressive, since you should still be missing 2/3 of your shots, half of your hits shouldn't be wounding, and more than half of those should be saved. Even if you're not fond of Mathhamer, that's like expecting Guardsmen to beat Terminators in CC.

You should NOT be afraid of your Avatar dying at 750 points. The few things that can kill him straight up (Namely, a Hive Tyrant, a Bloodthirster, a Pair of Princes, Etc) are far more expensive and unlikely to be encountered in 750 points. If you lose your Avatar, it's likely due to your enemy recklessly focusing most of his firepower on it. Avatar almost always earn their points in small games. And he'll definitely earn it better than your T3 Autarch.

Mathammer would break in the presence of my fireprism alone, the luckiest thing in the gaming group, standing up to 5 melta attacks from an Imperial Vet squad and a demo charge and coming through completely unscathed.

TANGENT: Has anyone ever explored the Phoenix Lords? How do they do?

They look very nice on paper they definetly seem worth their points with their statline, and their synergy with their aspects are amazing, all save Maugen Ra. He carries a weapon that adds +2S and ignores armour, and is an Assault 4 Shuriken Cannon, but the fact that his men are all carrying heavy weapons mutes his mobility quite alot. You'd keep him rather stationary I know, but it seems odd.

[Cheesegear]

Also, people come asking into this thread asking for advice and which units to get, many of them addressing Cheesegear directly or are redirected to him; for the sake of these people, I'd prefer to make sure the advice these people receive is correct. Which is not to say Cheesegear's opinion about Pariahs is necessarily wrong right now, even though it vastly differs from that of Selrahc and myself; but questioning it, and discussing Pariahs together, we can hopefully determine with greater certainty whether Pariahs are something to be recommended to Necron players, or told them to shy away from.

Now, by and large, I don't mind that people ask me - specifically - questions. If I wanted people to leave me alone, I wouldn'tve written a guide (which asks people to question me, by the way) and I wouldn't be so active in this thread...Or I just wouldn't answer.

So far, it appears that the only point of contention that I, Winterwind and Selrahc have differed on is this point on Pariahs. And, sort of, regarding Chaos Marines, however, given that I have already confessed to having little experience with CSMs, I'm willing to accept pretty much anything they tell me on the subject.
...With the sole exception of the Mark of Khorne on Daemon Princes. Which, on paper, seems like junk (compared to other options). And my experience against a Khorne Prince has been laughable...For me laughing the whole time. As they've been easy kills - for an HQ-level model.

On the subject of Pariahs, and the criteria for 'best unit', I've gone and subtly changed the rules of the entire game. Where it's simply Unit X vs. Unit Y. No help. No other distractions. Pariahs will - usually - come out on top. Even with 1 attack and Initiative 3.
Even better if the Pariahs are the ones who are Assaulting as they become a whole 50% better.

...Yeah, that's not how the game works. And pretty much contradicts my entire view on the game up until this point (such as my stance against Math-Hammer; 40K DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY). Sorry for that confusion.

My experience against Necrons, as it says in The Guide, is that with a bad list, Necrons are bad. With a good list, Necrons are insanely good. Just like Dark Eldar.

So, lets take Pariahs in a real game;
The Necron Tournament List of one of the more competitive gamers in my area is 2 Monoliths and 8 Pariahs (because 3 Monoliths would be cheesy, right?), 2 Tomb Spyders, a ~200 point Combat Destroyer Lord and about 1000 points worth of just Warriors. With the Monoliths sending out pie-plates, and, as always drawing lots of fire. If his Pariahs can't do anything useful, they stay out of LoS. Not in cover. 'In Cover' and 'Out of LoS' are two completely different bags of Canadian milk.

Against two Monoliths (and Warriors) cleaning the board on the first two turns and taking fire otherwise meant for the Pariahs. The Pariahs don't take a lot of fire and thus, don't die.
If you can get Pariahs out of LoS, yet still within 12" of a unit, in conjuction with Monolith shots forcing Morale checks, they become even more effective (also known as 'Contributing to the tactics of the whole army')

Player Psychology, such as 'don't bother about units that aren't Necrons' also helps. As the Pariahs get relatively unmolested compared to their Warrior friends (who have WBB and near a Resurrection Orb/Tomb Spyders/Monolith Portal. The logic there thinking 'Warriors are easy targets' astounds me).

In my experience, people who don't like Pariahs are usually using them wrong. Pariahs should also never be taken in anything less than 1500 points (I never doubt that). And, always at - or near - full strength. Which garners even more hate as Pariahs are expensive and come in single-model blisters.

[Shas aia Toriia]

e on paper they definetly seem worth their points with their statline, and their synergy with their aspects are amazing, all save Maugen Ra. He carries a weapon that adds +2S and ignores armour, and is an Assault 4 Shuriken Cannon, but the fact that his men are all carrying heavy weapons mutes his mobility quite alot. You'd keep him rather stationary I know, but it seems odd.

In case, for some crazy reason, you feel the need to move your Reapers, at least he could still shoot.

[One Step Two]

In case, for some crazy reason, you feel the need to move your Reapers, at least he could still shoot.

I dont have my codex handy at the moment, but as a shuriken cannon doesnt it only have a 24" range? Vs the 48" of a Reaper Launcher, or 36" of the exarchs tempest launcher. I suppose that he's a more fluffy character because he's designed to literally be put in the front of an army he's leading.

Tangent: Wouldn't it be cool (and absurdly broken) if by taking the Phoenix Lord, that aspect became a troop choice for the army? You could replicate the story where an Eldar Maiden world was forcibly taken back from invaders by Jain Zar, and one hundred Howling Banshees.

[crazedloon]

Tangent: Wouldn't it be cool (and absurdly broken) if by taking the Phoenix Lord, that aspect became a troop choice for the army? You could replicate the story where an Eldar Maiden world was forcibly taken back from invaders by Jain Zar, and one hundred Howling Banshees.

actually I believe it was bial tan which used to allow you to do just that, i.e. take aspect warriors as troops.

I wish they had made the autarchs (and PLs) work in that manner, i.e. autarch with fusion gun makes fire dragons troops, wings make hawks, maniblaster makes scorpions, banshee mask makes banshees, warp generator spiders, laser lance spears and launcher for reapers. It actually seems as if that was going to be a rule (since the autarch can have all the special items of the diffrent aspects) but they never added it. I wonder if it would make the eldar too strong...

however in all truth I want to see a harlequin army list with special option besides the basic unit.

[Winterwind]

Pinged, not pinned. I iced the opposing enemy avatar with sniper fire, I didn't pin him as much force him to take armour (and invulnreble) saves constantly with shots that didn't care a whit for T6 over three turns.

Ohhh, I see. Nevermind, then.

They look very nice on paper they definetly seem worth their points with their statline, and their synergy with their aspects are amazing, all save Maugen Ra. He carries a weapon that adds +2S and ignores armour, and is an Assault 4 Shuriken Cannon, but the fact that his men are all carrying heavy weapons mutes his mobility quite alot. You'd keep him rather stationary I know, but it seems odd.

It's like that - while all other Phoenix Lords improve the aspect in whatever the aspect does, Maugan Ra instead protects his aspect in what they are bad in (close combat), so they can do what they are supposed to do (give fire support). Essentially, while the other Phoenix Lords help their aspect warriors in their respective niche, Maugan Ra instead makes his aspect warriors more general-purpose.

...With the sole exception of the Mark of Khorne on Daemon Princes. Which, on paper, seems like junk (compared to other options). And my experience against a Khorne Prince has been laughable...For me laughing the whole time. As they've been easy kills - for an HQ-level model.

Actually, I agree with you about that one. The lack of Warptime alone makes him less effective in, well, pretty much everything.

I think (if not going for Lash-cheese), my favoured Prince would be one of Tzeentch. Not only should a 4+ Invulnerable save prove quite handy against many of the things that would be fielded against a Prince, but also the ability to use Warptime and another power (like one of those nice shooting attacks) should prove quite handy.

In my experience, people who don't like Pariahs are usually using them wrong. Pariahs should also never be taken in anything less than 1500 points (I never doubt that). And, always at - or near - full strength. Which garners even more hate as Pariahs are expensive and come in single-model blisters.

Alright; I'll make sure to pass down this wisdom to my Necron-playing friend. I think he would quite like to field Pariahs, but has been scared away from doing so by all the bad reputation they receive.

actually I believe it was bial tan which used to allow you to do just that, i.e. take aspect warriors as troops.

Well, Dire Avengers still remain troops, at least.

I wish they had made the autarchs (and PLs) work in that manner, i.e. autarch with fusion gun makes fire dragons troops, wings make hawks, maniblaster makes scorpions, banshee mask makes banshees, warp generator spiders, laser lance spears and launcher for reapers. It actually seems as if that was going to be a rule (since the autarch can have all the special items of the diffrent aspects) but they never added it. I wonder if it would make the eldar too strong...

I think it might be a tad too much...

An autarch's ability to take all of the special items seems more indicative to me that players are supposed to be able to use their autarchs to aid whichever unit they want, not that there ever were plans to make autarchs turn aspects into troops.

however in all truth I want to see a harlequin army list with special option besides the basic unit.

By my understanding, such a thing used to exist before 3rd edition.

[hamishspence]

It did- and one existed in 3rd ed in Citadel Journal.

Solitaires, in particular, were famously powerful.

[Winterwind]

While we're talking about Phoenix Lords, there's one thing I always wondered about.

Jain Zar has both Counterstrike (Counterattack? Or however the ability that allows one to charge a charging opponent is called in English?) and Furious Charge. Does she get the effects of Furious Charge on a countercharge?

(same question applies to any other model that has the combination of these two special abilities, of course, but she is the only one I know of that does)

[Cheesegear]

Jain Zar has both Counterstrike (Counterattack? Or however the ability that allows one to charge a charging opponent is called in English?) and Furious Charge. Does she get the effects of Furious Charge on a countercharge?

(same question applies to any other model that has the combination of these two special abilities, of course, but she is the only one I know of that does)

The rules for Counter-Attack say "[...] +1 assault bonus to their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn."

There has been contention over what the second part of that sentence actually means for quite some time now. As Jain Zar is not a particularly new issue.

But, Space Wolves FAQ specifically states that Furious Charge (among other things) and Counter Attack are not compatible. And, also now applies to all units in the game.

"The Counter-Attack rule only confers +1 assault bonus and no other advantages normally associated with assaulting."

For Space Wolves, this includes Blood Claws' ability (although it's already specifically mentioned in the entry that it doesn't work), and Ragnar Blackmane who gets +D3 Attacks when he Assaults and has the ability to give everyone Furious Charge. Which he doesn't get if he is Counter-Attacking because of the above rule.

[Zorg]

So, I'm working on saving up some money for real minis (I play on Vassal; not the same) to really get started in this delightful hobby, and I just wanted to do a quick check on thoughts here. I know I want to have Orks (Green is best!), and I am rather fond of Space Marines. SO, I'm thinking that I'll put away enough green stuff (the paper kind) for the Battleforce AND AoBR; if I'm going to do this (and I want to!), then damnit, I'm going all in.

Posted you a reply in the models thread to all your queries

[MountainKing]

Posted you a reply in the models thread to all your queries

I think I just got struck dead and I don't know it yet. I'll head over there right now, thanks!

[Misery Esquire]

Right, quick inquiry for the Heavy Weapon option for an Imperial Guard Veteran Squad : Between the Heavy Bolter and Autocannon, which is more effective if it has to be used in every sort of situation. Seeing as my gaming group plays Tau, Tyranids, Space Marines, Chaos, IG, Orks...

Light Vechicle killing and High Strength are a bonus for the Autocannon, but against a mob, the extra shot of the HB is likely going to be worth it... Or should the extra five points just be dug up for the Missle Launcher, instead?

A tad new to IG, I'll note. Used to play a mid-sized Tyranid army, and Sisters of Battle before that.

[Lycan 01]

What has the better AP and longest range?


So, looking at the new Ork walkers coming out... Which would be more effective? A Deff Dread, or a trio of Killa Kans? The Deff Dread is a beast, but is also a single target. The Kans aren't as beefy, but there's strength in numbers.

What would you guys based off of experience and what you've seen?

[IthilanorStPete]

Lycan: HB is 36'' range, S5, AP4, Heavy 3, while Autocannon is 48'' range, S7, AP4, Heavy 2.

[Lycan 01]

Oh yeah, go with Autocannon. You get an extra foot of range, you have something handy against vehicles, and you'd only have to roll 2+ to wound most enemies... I'd say that offsets the loss of 1 shot.

[Cheesegear]

So, looking at the new Ork walkers coming out... Which would be more effective? A Deff Dread, or a trio of Killa Kans? The Deff Dread is a beast, but is also a single target. The Kans aren't as beefy, but there's strength in numbers.

Yep. That's pretty much it. Deff Dreads - not being Space Marines - don't get Drop Pods. As such, they either specialise in shooting, which they don't do well at - at all - or they spec for combat, which means they get to walk/run up the board.

If you're LoS-savvy, a Dread can make it. He usually doesn't.

One trick is to run a Big Mek with Force Field behind the Dread at all times which sort of helps.

That being said, you can also do the same trick with Killa Kans. Again, if you've got HS slots to spare, take 'em separate.

[evisiron]

What has the better AP and longest range?


So, looking at the new Ork walkers coming out... Which would be more effective? A Deff Dread, or a trio of Killa Kans? The Deff Dread is a beast, but is also a single target. The Kans aren't as beefy, but there's strength in numbers.

What would you guys based off of experience and what you've seen?

My killa Kans, point for point, have always done better since they can field BS3 rokkit launchers and retain the ability to not be hurt by low strength troops. They can also be very good at AI with their grotzookas.

And people underestimate them! One of my favourite moments was a killa kan fighting a 3 man termie team until they finally dies since none had a power fist!

[Shas aia Toriia]

And people underestimate them! One of my favourite moments was a killa kan fighting a 3 man termie team until they finally dies since none had a power fist!

Emphasis mine. Why did they have no powerfists?
Unless they were playing Space Wolves, they come standard. If you are playing SW, you should be taking several fists in the squad.