OOTS #696 - The Discussion Thread

[Zanaril]

In a future strip...

* Belkar kissing V *
V: Honey?
Belkar: Yes?
V: I have a secret to tell you
Belkar: Just say it, honey. I won't tell anyone.
V: Inkyrius and I...
Belkar: And you what?
V: ... were a gay couple.
Belkar: :O!!!
Belkar: AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!

It's not gay if it's an elf.

[Nilan8888]

The windows I'll give you, but the wind walk spell? That was just child-like enthusiasm. It does not equal idiocy.

Then, if you like, how about his obliviousness to V threatening his life after Therakala is dead? Or not being able to deflect Hinjo's simple inquiries as to what happened? There's not too much that happens to Elan between those points and the effective end of the arc and he's still looking like pretty much the buffoon.

Just because comics have been written that had dramatic beats in them concerning Elan that he didn't happen to ruin doesn't mean he's become more intelligent. It just means he's lived through some dramatic things.

[factotum]

Just because comics have been written that had dramatic beats in them concerning Elan that he didn't happen to ruin doesn't mean he's become more intelligent. It just means he's lived through some dramatic things.

To be fair to Elan, he was trying to be better when he was on the fleet. Remember his speech over Therkla's grave, where he bemoaned that he was trying to do what Roy would do, but wasn't smart enough? Basically, now Roy is back, Elan doesn't need to try anymore, and so he isn't.

[Sijo]

To be fair to Elan, he was trying to be better when he was on the fleet. Remember his speech over Therkla's grave, where he bemoaned that he was trying to do what Roy would do, but wasn't smart enough? Basically, now Roy is back, Elan doesn't need to try anymore, and so he isn't.

Now that makes sense. Elan is not as stupid as everyone (even he) thinks he is; he's just not used to thinking by himself. It is logical that he would stop trying so hard now that he has his friends to think for him. But I still find it jarring that he's being written again as if even stuff a child would know is beyond him. At least he's not talking to a hand puppet anymore. I understand that this is a comedy strip (well, that and a fantasy adventure, though it seems to forget it when least expected) and Elan's role IS to be The Fool; it's just that, for the long-time reader, it feels like a step back on his character growth.

I hope we get to see a scene where he comes up with a logical answer to a problem and everyone stares at him in surprise. THAT would be a good use of his development.

[Trixie]

Really? I thought the lynchpin of the argument against Girard was that he was utterly and entirely wrong about Soon, and I don't think V surviving that explosion disproves that in any way...

I didn't even considered this, as relying on century long hindsight isn't even argument, it's fallacy the size of Saturn (that contradicted virtually every strip with Scribbles in it, but I guess when you dislike Girard you somehow know the members of the Scribble better than they knew themselves and each other). It fell apart even before is was formulated.

To put things in perspective - yes, today we probably would have called reaction to certain Ferdinand's fate... overkill, but trying to use that in the dispute about the era is just...

[Somewhere]

Huh, V's not as frail as I thought; didn't know that Samantha was at least lv 12 to cast lv 6 spells. So a max lightning bolt from her would be 60....dropped V to unconscious...V would have to have had 51-60 HP at that point (strip 168). Assuming 12 con according to the geekery thread and max d4 rolls....that would put V at lvl 10 or 11 at that point? Average rolls at lv 14 would get to 50.5 HP...

[Shale]

I didn't even considered this, as relying on century long hindsight isn't even argument, it's fallacy the size of Saturn (that contradicted virtually every strip with Scribbles in it, but I guess when you dislike Girard you somehow know the members of the Scribble better than they knew themselves and each other). It fell apart even before is was formulated.

A century? Soon was dead of old age within a few years of the Scribble's split. Once that happened the question was pretty much settled. Plus it's not just "Soon didn't go to the Gate, therefore Girard was crazy," it's "Soon took the oath so seriously that he made it Rule 1 for an entire order of paladins, and possibly went too far in the other direction, so anybody who thought he was likely to break it apparently didn't know him that well."

[dsavereide]

Am I the only one that thinks when V says "...And that would be wrong" it is not in response to Belkar, but to whatever suggestion Blackwing whispered?

[Boogastreehouse]

Am I the only one that thinks when V says "...And that would be wrong" it is not in response to Belkar, but to whatever suggestion Blackwing whispered?

That was sort of the joke, yeah...



Edit to further explain: Blackwing told V to say that blowing things up to solve problems would be wrong, because it didn't occur to V to say it. Vaarsuvius thinks it's fine to blow people up, and Blackwing reminds her/him that the rest of the party wouldn't approve of this attitude. Belkar is smiling because he has been doing a lot of lying about his attitude lately, too.

[factotum]

A century? Soon was dead of old age within a few years of the Scribble's split. Once that happened the question was pretty much settled. Plus it's not just "Soon didn't go to the Gate, therefore Girard was crazy," it's "Soon took the oath so seriously that he made it Rule 1 for an entire order of paladins, and possibly went too far in the other direction, so anybody who thought he was likely to break it apparently didn't know him that well."

QFT. There is no possible interpretation of the events we've seen in the comic that implies that Girard was right in his judgement of Soon, because of the point made here: he took the oath of non-interference so seriously that Shojo had to work behind the backs of the paladins he nominally led in order to investigate Girard's Gate. If anything, those people who are saying otherwise appear to have an irrational dislike of Soon, not the other way round!

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I hope we get to see a scene where he comes up with a logical answer to a problem and everyone stares at him in surprise. THAT would be a good use of his development.

Better still, a scene where he comes up with a logical answer to a problem and no one stares at him in surprise. Granted, the Giant would have to build to up to such a scene, but it would reinforce Elan's improving competence nicely, don't you think?

[Magugag]

I think you all are giving Elan a bit too much credit when it comes to brainpower. Just because he was involved in a few dramatic scenes in the comic doesn't mean he's becoming more intelligent or less childish. It means that he was involved in a few dramatic scenes. I don't see him becoming much more of a thinking character, despite taking a few levels in a more competent class.

[Badgercloak]

That was a great comic. Thank you.

[Sewblon]

Every time I look at Belkar's face in the last panel, I wonder if he is thinking something like "I am gonna ride Vaarsuvius like a little (five-letter-word that means female dog.)" What would the kids be like?

[Drogorn]

Every time I look at Belkar's face in the last panel, I wonder if he is thinking something like "I am gonna ride Vaarsuvius like a little (four-letter-word that means female dog.)" What would the kids be like?

There aren't any four-letter words in the English language that mean female dog.

[Dr Happypills]

I assumed that Elan was becoming more competent but not necessarily more intelligent.

[Boogastreehouse]

A century? Soon was dead of old age within a few years of the Scribble's split. Once that happened the question was pretty much settled. Plus it's not just "Soon didn't go to the Gate, therefore Girard was crazy," it's "Soon took the oath so seriously that he made it Rule 1 for an entire order of paladins, and possibly went too far in the other direction, so anybody who thought he was likely to break it apparently didn't know him that well."

QFT. There is no possible interpretation of the events we've seen in the comic that implies that Girard was right in his judgement of Soon, because of the point made here: he took the oath of non-interference so seriously that Shojo had to work behind the backs of the paladins he nominally led in order to investigate Girard's Gate. If anything, those people who are saying otherwise appear to have an irrational dislike of Soon, not the other way round!

What I'm waiting for is more information on the falling out of the Order of the Scribble. It's quite possible that Soon had at one time been guilty of the sort of ends-justify-the-means actions which Girard now suspects him of. Perhaps after the falling out, or Kraagor's death, Soon made a vow not to walk down that path again, and that's why he takes the Oath of the Sapphire Guard so seriously. I recall Soon talking to Miko about redemption; maybe at some point Soon had some atoning of his own to do. Soon had redeemed himself, but Girard still never trusted him again.

[Shatteredtower]

If anything, those people who are saying otherwise appear to have an irrational dislike of Soon, not the other way round!

Nonsense. Acknowledging the merit of a contingency put in place in case the group's ruthless authoritarion (or a successor) moved against the gate says nothing of how Soon is viewed by the reader.

Whether it was triggered on Soon's order is irrelevant.

[Shale]

Nonsense. Acknowledging the merit of a contingency put in place in case the group's ruthless authoritarion (or a successor) moved against the gate says nothing of how Soon is viewed by the reader.

Whether it was triggered on Soon's order is irrelevant.

The fact that you're calling Soon a "ruthless authoritarian" kind of indicates a certain opinion of the character...

[Allan Surgite]

Hell, even for authors of the written word, I can't see why one has to hold them to higher standards of consistent spelling than Shakespear :P

I can't tell if you're mocking or ignoring the fact that Shakespeare actually couldn't spell his own name... or maybe he had bad enough writing that he write "Shakespeare" as "Shagspeer".

Never mind. Vaarsuvius certainly has some... memorable quotes in this strip, as well as more-or-less typical Elan shenanigans. I can't really say what's going to happen next; I presume the Order are going to find another town to stay in until you get more info on the Gate.

[Kish]

Nonsense. Acknowledging the merit of a contingency put in place in case the group's ruthless authoritarion (or a successor) moved against the gate says nothing of how Soon is viewed by the reader.

Are you familiar with the logical fallacy of begging the question?

I'm not entirely certain whether that's the specific fallacy represented in claiming your view on Girard's actions has nothing to do with your opinion of Soon while stating a reason for endorsing Girard's actions which hinges on Soon being a "ruthless authoritarion," or there's another fallacy that would fit better.

Whether it was triggered on Soon's order is irrelevant.

Right? Wrong? Who cares? What matters is he hated Soon and so he's brilliant and cool whether his judgments had anything to do with reality or not!

[Zelthax]

I simply adore V's quote in the first panel. Just sayin'.