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Thread: The 3.5/Pathfinder Handbook
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2010-02-03, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder Question
Did a little more research on the paladin problem. It does say that a Paladin falls if they ever willingly commit an evil act. It then goes on to loosely explain the paladin's code.
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
RAW, a paladin does not fall for violating his code. He falls if he ever willingly commits an evil act. (That is, willingly - if deceived into doing so or under compulsion to do so, he does not fall.) Only gross violations of his code can reasonably be considered evil acts.Last edited by Rixx; 2010-02-03 at 06:31 PM.
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2010-02-03, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder Question
I do have some other problems. They nerfed melee (power attack is gone for example and critical feats I don't really see the point of.) and I just don't feel like learning a whole new edition if the vast majority of 3.5 was unchanged. If they'd done something about the balance issue I'd consider playing the edition in spite of that. However, the only Class I feel like playing (Paladin) the DM said I was going to fall for any violation.
I'm not going to play in a game like that and no other ones are available. I'll just say that I have problems with the edition and leave it at that.
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2010-02-03, 07:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder Question
The problem is that some people walk into this expecting a miracle from Paizo. It's like going to see a mid-budget comedy flick at the movies expecting a Lord of the Ring epicness: you'll just be disappointed.
If you go in knowing that Pathfinder will fix a decent amount of smaller things and are willing to incorporate those things into your 3.5 games, then you'll be happy like I am.
I haven't been playing 3.5 in a while. I've been playing my own system which is very very similar to 3.5. The release of Pathfinder just means that my section of houserules got bigger and better.
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2010-02-03, 10:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder Question
In which case you are not actually converting the product, you are just making up random numbers.
Which of course is up to each individual.
Of course it rather defeats the purpose of having an actual rules system, but as long as no one notices . . .
For people interested in actual compatibility and conversions, those issues remain.
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2010-02-03, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder Question
To the paladin issue, comparing the two:
Originally Posted by 3.5 SRDOriginally Posted by PF PRD
Also someone mentioned that a paladin only falls if they commit an evil act. Sorry, the text does not support that in either edition.Last edited by pres_man; 2010-02-03 at 11:01 PM.
Definition of DMPC:
1: a character that if it was run by a non-DM would be considered a PC; a special kind of Ally (see p. 104 of the 3.5 DMG)
2: (derogatory) any character used by a DM that disrupts the game
Need to replace those core 3.5 books, check out Gauric Myths.
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2010-02-04, 12:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder Question
Power attack isn't gone - it actually gives you bigger returns on your attack roll penalty now. (-1 to your roll gives +3 to damage, if you're using a two-hander) You just can't vary the amount you sacrifice.
It seems like most of your problems are with your DM, not the system. But if you're that set in your ways to not even give it a shot, it's probably not for you regardless - but parroting misinformation about it isn't necessary. You don't have to justify your decision if it's only a matter of taste.
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2010-02-04, 01:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-02-04, 01:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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2010-02-04, 02:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder Question
It's okay! I don't blame you - a lot of people say a lot of things about Pathfinder that aren't true, and the only way you can really get a feel for it is by actually playing it.
I've played in a Pathfinder campaign since the beta and I could never go back to 3.5. It doesn't radically re-balance the game, but it streamlines it and makes it funner and easier to play. Plus, more customization options for every class - always nice!
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2010-02-04, 06:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder Question
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2010-02-04, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder Question
Sorry Jaron, this is wrong. Like I said, I'm in a Pathfinder campaign, and Power Attack is used for pretty much the same thing as it usually is used for in 3.5 games, ie "Take a small penalty to hit something harder." The only time it's an issue is if you only ever used Power Attack in Shock Trooper builds or similar, which most people don't do.
I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!
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2010-02-04, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder Question
Yup, and that is exactly what the 4vengers claimed as well. Sorry, I can look at the rules and decide they are not for me.
Good to know that when I play 3.5, it is not very fun or easy. Yeah, heard the same type of comments from the 4e folks (anybody remember the "don't grapple the troll" video?), didn't buy it then, still don't buy it now.
PF: for those that are late to the 3.5 party or those that like jump on the newest stuff.
Humorously, I wonder how many PF fans were the ones complaining about power creep in 3.5 with the splat books, and yet PF punches it up several levels.Definition of DMPC:
1: a character that if it was run by a non-DM would be considered a PC; a special kind of Ally (see p. 104 of the 3.5 DMG)
2: (derogatory) any character used by a DM that disrupts the game
Need to replace those core 3.5 books, check out Gauric Myths.
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2010-02-04, 09:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder Question
Why do people play most games? Because thats what the DM is running. If you sat down a PF player at a table and handed him a PHB, he could make a character. He would understand BAB and saving throws. He would know what all the classes are, and basically how feats work. You would have to spend a minute explaining the skill changes, but he would understand how the skill system works. He could function in a combat. He essentially has played the same game you are playing, and enjoyed it.
I didn't say that anyone didn't count. I agree that many of their criticisms are entirely valid. What I said is that the attitudes of forum posters do not well reflect the gaming public at large.
Most of the PF changes are things that only a dedicated gamer would NOTICE, let alone care about. If I asked "What do grease and blink do, and if I weakened them who would it hurt?" most forum goers could tell me the specifics of those spells, and would know that nerfing them weakens rogues, who use them to sneak attack. The large majority of the casual D&D players I know (or, all of them without much experience playing wizards) would be able to tell you that they were wizard spells, maybe that they were low level, and give you an impression of the flavor of the spells, but wouldn't know the specifics without looking in the PHB. Most would think that nerfing them was a wizard nerf. To the average gamer, 3.5 and PF are the same system. Interchangeable. The differences between the 2, if noticeable at all, would be less important than practical considerations like "Who is DMing? Who is Playing? and What are the OOC factors (location, time, etc) around the game."
"You can have my PHB when you pry it from my cold dead hands" is fine and a valid opinion. It just isn't an opinion that in my experience represents the majority of gamers, who just want to sit down, drink Mountain Dew and cast fireball.
Actually, the one player I have met who played PF and refused to play 3.5 cited exactly that reason. *Shrugs*Last edited by Gnaeus; 2010-02-04 at 09:10 AM.
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2010-02-04, 09:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder Question
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2010-02-04, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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pathfinder good/bad?
Hey everybody! (hey Dr. Nick!)
I'm a DM of three guys and we've been playing 4th ed for about a year. Things I like about 4th is the ease of which I can set up adventures, all the classes get cool abilities, and there are a lot of helpful tools from DnDI like the character builder, adventure tools, and new content on a daily basis.
things i dislike is the 80% focused on combat aspect, you almost HAVE to min/max from the get go, not enough fluff spell/monster/etc wise
How is Pathfinder? I hear it is a best of 3.5 and 4th kind of deal with all the classes being a bit more balanced, less feat heavy hundred books needed, and still allows choices.
opinions?Originally Posted by Flaming Nun
You know that "DM" is just an abbreviation of "Death Machine." If you aren't killing your players, you are not DMing properly.
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2010-02-04, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: pathfinder good/bad?
pathfinder is basically a large set of houserules for D&D 3.5. It is not a particularly bad one, but it is not the great revelation of RPGs, either. Some of the ideas are good, some are not, and the basic problems of D&D - basically quadratic wizards vs. linear fighters has not been touched at all.
There are a few really nice features in it, though - I particularly like the remodeled skill system- but it is neither bad nor good for everyone.
It has very little in common with 4e, as far as I can tell.
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2010-02-04, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: pathfinder good/bad?
The above is correct.
Pathfinder is neither awesome nor terrible, but a different flavor of 3.5. If you want to try something less game-combat focused than 4e, either system is a perfectly good option.
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2010-02-04, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: pathfinder good/bad?
I wonder how much work would be required to make Saga Edition into a D&D-like game? It seems more of a "halfway house" between 3.5 and 4E than pathfinder is, from the descriptions.
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2010-02-04, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: pathfinder good/bad?
Pretty much what Tyndmyr said.
I'm only posting because I thought I was the only person who subconsciously filled in 'Hi Dr. Nick!' after every time I say 'Hi everybody!'I write a gaming blog. It also hosts my gaming downloads:
Fatescape - FATE-based D&D emulator, for when you want D&D flavour but not D&D complexity.
Exalted Mass Combat Rules - Because the ones in the core book suck.
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2010-02-04, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: pathfinder good/bad?
Someone's already had a shot at it, actually. I've never tried it, and the author was aiming for Lankhmar and Conan the Barbarian more than D&D 3.5, but it looks interesting.
Avatar by GryffonDurime. Thanks!
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2010-02-04, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: pathfinder good/bad?
I played a Pathfinder game for a couple of months, and I have to say that I was fairly disappointed. There are some things it does that I really like (Like Races and Sorcerous bloodlines), but the problems that I had in 3.5 I still had with Pathfinder. At that point, I had been GMing 4E for a few months, and I spent nearly every combat thinking "Geez, I wish that this was 4E). Out-of-combat, things went roughly the same as they do in 3.5E or 4E. (Actually, not quite that smoothly, since the group that I played with weren't necessarily the brightest bulbs).
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2010-02-04, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: pathfinder good/bad?
I have been running and playing in a Pathfinder Game and I will have to say I really like it. It has the familiarity of 3.5 with a few added elements to make it smoother. The thing I really don't understand is how people can rate how good a system is based on whether the fighter and the wizard are equally balanced. I may be the only one here but I don't want to play in a system where the guy that can swing a piece of metal really hard is on the same power level as the guy who can alter reality.
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2010-02-04, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: pathfinder good/bad?
I may be the only one here but I don't want to play in a system where the guy that can swing a piece of metal really hard is on the same power level as the guy who can alter reality.
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2010-02-04, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-02-04, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: pathfinder good/bad?
I find the only alternative is like Final Fantasy wizards. As far as I can see, anyway.
You have 3 abilities with several subsections. Blow it up for roughly equal damage as melee (frequently less). Create a mild buff for an ally. Restore health or good condition.
All 3 can be replicated by items, most of the time.
It's balanced, in sheer damage output, mostly, but it fails to adress the feebleness of wizards.But... but... You can't Wake Up Dead
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The Demented One's fix of White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge.
A well played paladin is a valuable asset to a party, and a beautiful roleplaying opportunity.
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2010-02-04, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: pathfinder good/bad?
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2010-02-04, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: pathfinder good/bad?
We are talking about pathfinder. We're talking about how it's impossible to balance magic with melee, or at least how pathfinder doesn't touch the issue. Something about balancing melee with magic came up. I suggested the only time I have ever seen magic on equal (or lesser) footing.
A way that isn't fun. That's why magic is overpowered, IMO. It's just blowing things up, otherwise. Rather than just saying that, I cited an example.But... but... You can't Wake Up Dead
Amazing waffle avatar crafted by the talented hands of MoriHikari.
The Demented One's fix of White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge.
A well played paladin is a valuable asset to a party, and a beautiful roleplaying opportunity.
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2010-02-04, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: pathfinder good/bad?
I like balance, even between different classes. However, balance is not nearly as important as other traits, such as having interesting, very different options to choose from.
Pathfinder didn't really get any better on the balance issue, but it provides some fun options. Presumably as more is printed, it'll catch up with 3.5.
3.5 wins currently on most material and customizability available. Pretty much nothing can touch it.
On the bright side for Pf, it's new, and still supported.
Both have substantial player bases(with significant overlap).
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2010-02-05, 07:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder Question
In my view, more like 1 step forward, 2 steps back. I (once I put in a little time to learn the rule) don't find it all that time consuming in 3.5. If it is now used so little because the chance of failure is greater, then I guess you could argue that by never using it, it is then quicker to use (0 seconds of time will be less than any portion of a second of time).
Definition of DMPC:
1: a character that if it was run by a non-DM would be considered a PC; a special kind of Ally (see p. 104 of the 3.5 DMG)
2: (derogatory) any character used by a DM that disrupts the game
Need to replace those core 3.5 books, check out Gauric Myths.
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2010-02-05, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pathfinder Question
The biggest problem is that both versions still allow a DM to make a paladin fall for anything at anytime, anywhere, and the RAW would justify him in every case.
Really, the Paladin Code of Conduct is a Post-It Note someone threw into the book right before their lunch break. I wouldn't bother noticing any change in it, unless that change is 'it's gone'.Character Roster:
Just when you thought you had the advantage,
A riddle backstabbed you for critical damage.