OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread

[Arcane_Secrets]

Lawful Good protagonist killing unarmed, defenseless people who are completely at his mercy.

I'm not quite sure if that counts as the same situation. The goblins in that strip were hardly unarmed immediately before they got bored to sleep. In comparison, the splattered hobgoblin appeared to be unarmed from the first panel he showed up.

[Kumo]

What do you do with an enemy prisoner which you cannot properly secure, let alone feed/house? Here's a hint- The "quarter" in the term "No Quarter" comes from the use of the word to refer to lodgings/accommodations. Such things happen all too often in the real world. A famous (real-life inspired) literary example is in the novel Company K- One of the stories deals with the company capturing over a dozen prisoners before being given orders to go on to another objective. There is no one to secure the prisoners, no ability to send 3 people to march them back to HQ, and they cannot leave them there, because they now know the next secret objective. So they execute the prisoners. Of course the book is pretty much a morality tale about the horror of war, so take that for what it is worth.

Getting beyond that-
I know DND has changed a bit, particularly recently, but at least in the olden days, Rangers were a "good only class"...even know, I believe you can still be a good aligned ranger. Rangers have a "racial enemy" or now a "favored enemy" a group of creatures that he/she has an unabiding passionate hate for. how does this mesh with the black and white morality that is sometimes brought up? Can you be a good racist/ species-ist? Must you treat any and all sentient life as equal? or can you be a good alignment by ensuring mercy and compassion for all humans? or elves, as the case may be...

-+G

i was under the impression favored enemy referred to a species archetype that you were adept at fighting. didn't neccesarily mean you hated them.

[Math_Mage]

i was under the impression favored enemy referred to a species archetype that you were adept at fighting. didn't neccesarily mean you hated them.

This.

Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of
creature from among those given on Table 3–14: Ranger Favored
Enemies. Due to his extensive study on his chosen type of foe and
training in the proper techniques for combating such creatures, the
ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and
Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this
type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against
such creatures.

<emphasis mine>

Maybe the traditional ranger RP is someone with a "passionate hatred" for a particular Favored Enemy, but it's not 3.5 RAW.

EDIT: Actually, maybe it is. From fluff early in the class description:

Adventures: A ranger often accepts
the role of protector, aiding those who
live in or travel through the woods. In
addition, a ranger carries grudges
against certain types of creatures and
looks for opportunities to find and
destroy them.

<emphasis mine>

So, it isn't so clear-cut.

[factotum]

I think the safest, most pragmatic thing to do would have been to take the hobgoblin into the caves and interrogate him. If it turns out he's a plant (which seems vanishingly unlikely) then you can dispose of him safely there. Alternatively, stab him on the spot and make sure it's a quick, clean death. Because throwing him off a tower is FAR from safely disposing of him. He can scream on the way down and alert nearby guards. Somebody might even be nearby and see him falling, and thus realise something is up.

As far as him telling Redcloak there are elves in the attack party--that boat's already sailed; we know Redcloak can cast Speak with Dead, and there are plenty of hobgoblin corpses around to ask questions of. I'm sure it will be common knowledge inside 24 hours that a party of high-level elves were helping out the Resistance. Even that being the case, though, why does everyone assume Xykon is going to curbstomp them? Not only is Xykon not even in the city right now, he doesn't care about the place! Not to mention that he might have a few awkward questions about why the prison was so easily attacked by the Resistance...Redcloak sure as heck isn't going to want to tell him that there was a celebration going on while everyone was supposed to be searching for his phylactery!

[Strawberries]

Wow, 14 pages of discussion? Already?

I said on multiple occasions I was rooting for the goblins a bit. Yes, I'm still rooting for the goblins. Now more than a bit. And I didn't read all the pages of disussion but this post

Hobgoblin prisoner: Evil racist bastard who openly states that he was locked up for "roughing up" a "greenskin." Probably sincere, possibly trustworthy to Team Peregrine, if not to any other goblinoid. Deserved what he got, but not for the reason he got it.

Elf commander: Evil racist bastard who openly states genocidal desires and even acknowledges that he doesn't expect Thanh to be okay with what he did. Completely uncool. Deserves what the hobgoblin got, and will hopefully get it at some point.

sums up my thoughts quite well

[Hurkyl]

there are many things that might be absolutely necessary that are also morally repulsive.

...

If war isn't evil, what is?

And yet sometimes it is just and necessary. I guess we could say that so long as a war is necessary it isn't evil, but given how dripping the whole enterprise is with every kind of wickedness, from top to bottom, it almost seems profane to not always label it as evil.

A just and necessary war is one we are morally compelled to engage in, and one that serves the greater Good.

To call such a thing morally repulsive and even Evil serves only to dilute the notion of "Moral", "Good", and "Evil" so much as to have no meaning anymore.

Call it distasteful. Call it repulsive. Call it a tragedy. But don't call it Evil.

[Murdim]

Hobgoblin prisoner: Evil racist bastard who openly states that he was locked up for "roughing up" a "greenskin." Probably sincere, possibly trustworthy to Team Peregrine, if not to any other goblinoid. Deserved what he got, but not for the reason he got it.

Elf commander: Evil racist bastard who openly states genocidal desires and even acknowledges that he doesn't expect Thanh to be okay with what he did. Completely uncool. Deserves what the hobgoblin got, and will hopefully get it at some point.

I will third it, though I must add that I don't want the Elf commander to die... for about the same reasons I don't want Belkar to die. Heroic Sociopathy Is Cool.

The prisoner was Obviously Evil©, anyway.

[Agi Hammerthief]

Hobgoblin prisoner: Evil racist bastard who openly states that he was locked up for "roughing up" a "greenskin." Probably sincere, possibly trustworthy to Team Peregrine, if not to any other goblinoid. Deserved what he got, but not for the reason he got it.

Elf commander: Evil racist bastard who openly states genocidal desires and even acknowledges that he doesn't expect Thanh to be okay with what he did. Completely uncool. Deserves what the hobgoblin got, and will hopefully get it at some point.

only: the Hobgoblin is a racist and the Elf a speceisit;
as Read Cloak put it in 0451

[Mordokai]

Not because he might turn on then. Not even because it's a waste of resources. And he obviously enjoyed killing him.

I'll just pipe in and say that I fail to see any enjoyment in Commander's actions. Remorse? No. Pity? No, not that either. Indiference? Getting closer. Contempt? Quite possibly. But joy? I am not seeing it in his actions. Yes, he did it because it was more convenient and yes, it wasn't quite the right thing to do.

However, would the Resistance take the same gobbo to their hideout and would the said gobbo turn on them somewhere down the line (which, I hope, we can all admit is more than likely to happen), I can foresee great many of threads how the Commander was stupid, how, in fact, all of the elves and resistance to boot are stupid for not doing something to prevent this course of action. And once again, the elves become cannon fodder, once again they are foppish pretty heads with no practical uses whatsoever save for, as somebody in this very thread has put it, target practice for dwarves.

I'm sick and tired of people taking their contempt out on elves. You don't like them, fine. You think they are fit only for extermination? I can live with that too. But I will not sit idly by and watch while people diss their every action only because they are elves. Once somebody becomes cannon fodder only because they are not somebody else, that's when I start taking a beef with it.

This one has drawn away from my original point once again. I just wanted to say that I don't approve of the general elf hate that is quite prominent in this thread. It was directed at nobody in particular, but very much in general. If you don't like the actions of one elf, don't take it out on the whole race. Commander's action in this comic may not scream Good. But we can't say it wasn't the right one.

[albis]

Well, in the situation they are in, they couldn't afford the risk coming with the guy's proposal...
of course they could gag him, blindfold him and continue to go, and decide to kill him later on IF he proved a traitor... but still, in an enemy place, and very heavily outnumbered, the elves probably thought a goblin's life wasn't worth it.
Which opens the door to the "who is to judge which lives are worth it and which aren't" question, but that's one that doesn't really have answers, especially in war...

moral issues aside, I admit that at first sight I did find it funny especially when the two Resistance human soldiers are left to wonder whether to tell Than or not. XD

[Agi Hammerthief]

I'm with those who say it was the smart thing to do:
Just how long would it take a racist Hobgoblin to discover his speceisit side and decide that any type of Golblinoid is like a brother to him compared to an Elf or Human?

as for the joke on the way to he ege:
IMO the most deserving comment is that it was a very human thing to do.

[Melamoto]

You know, I enjoy the comic. The double standards employed by the "good guys" can be almost sickening at times. But I'm starting to feel it's getting a little overbearing.

I can understand groups of people wishing goblins dead, and that they think they should all die. But leading a surrendering hobgoblin over a castle wall while delivering an evil speech? It seems like Rich is trying to make every good guy a goblin murdering psychopath all the time. It isn't just a few overzealous paladins, or corrupt speciesist warlords. Every man and his dog loves to kill goblins as a sport for some reason, and nobody seems even the slightest bit bothered about how they're killing helpless prisoners, even when they wouldn't normally do so to a devil.

At this point, it just seems like everybody hates goblins just because that makes the story grittier.

[Santiago]

Haha lovin' this one.

[Agi Hammerthief]

It seems like Rich is trying to make every good guy a goblin murdering psychopath all the time.

The Majority is always sane

Puppetier Axiom

saying: if "everyone" hates goblins, killing them does not make you psychopath.

doesn't make it "right" from the point of view of those who are not "everyone"

[Hurkyl]

It seems like Rich is trying to make every good guy a goblin murdering psychopath all the time.

Maybe my memory is failing me, but isn't this the first time we've seen it on the main screen since strip #13?

[JoseB]

At this point, it just seems like everybody hates goblins just because that makes the story grittier.

Not really. Everybody hates goblins because the goblins were created by the gods to be hated and to be cannon fodder (SoD dixit). A bit circular, but that is how the world was created, according to canon.

As to the actions of the elf commander: Reminds me, to a certain extent, of what Henry V did after the battle of Agincourt (he ordered the killing of a few thousand French prisoners because they might become a liability after the battle -- he feared that they might turn against his own troops in the case of a French counterattack after the battle).

In this case it seems pretty obvious that the elf commander sees that hobgoblin as a liability, and very likely as a plant (which I tend to agree with: It looks very weird to me that this guy is the ONLY hobgoblin who has been put in jail among humans). Killing him is distasteful, and nasty, but very likely it is also the rational thing to do in the circumstances (the resistance is heavily outnumbered, stealth and secrecy are paramount, and they cannot risk anything *at all*).

I see this action as being comparable (up to a point) to the action of a squad of commandos: Commandos will be ruthless and get rid of anybody who may represent a danger to the mission. This hobgoblin is most likely a liability, the resistance is in a hurry to get the hell out of there, kill him and be done with it.

Throwing him off the parapet instead of simply stabbing him might be what shows that the elf commander possibly considers goblins more like a pest than an enemy worth some respect. This doesn't mean that the reasoning behind the action, from a military and tactical standpoint, is not sound -- only that the elf may well consider the hobgoblin as being beneath contempt and only fit to be hated, and that strikes us as distasteful. But then, as I said before, goblinoids were explicitly created to be thought of as pests beneath contempt only fit to be hated...

And, in any case, I can even think of a plausible reason for throwing the hobgoblin off the wall instead of stabbing him: To prevent the use of "speak with dead" on him and get information. According to the d20 SRD:

"You can cast this spell on a corpse that has been deceased for any amount of time, but the body must be mostly intact to be able to respond. A damaged corpse may be able to give partial answers or partially correct answers, but it must at least have a mouth in order to speak at all." (Emphasis mine)

So... You are in a hurry to leave, you don't want to risk having the body interrogated afterwards... The best way to make it reasonably sure that the body will be mangled enough that any potential answers to "speak with dead" will not be in full is to throw him off a great height (yes, they could have stabbed him first and thrown him later on. Here the "contempt and hatred" thing influences the actions of the commander, I think).

In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the attackers made sure to mutilate the corpses of their enemies enough to prevent "speak with dead" with them afterwards.

[Selene]

I'm sick and tired of people taking their contempt out on elves. You don't like them, fine. You think they are fit only for extermination? I can live with that too. But I will not sit idly by and watch while people diss their every action only because they are elves. Once somebody becomes cannon fodder only because they are not somebody else, that's when I start taking a beef with it.

This one has drawn away from my original point once again. I just wanted to say that I don't approve of the general elf hate that is quite prominent in this thread. It was directed at nobody in particular, but very much in general. If you don't like the actions of one elf, don't take it out on the whole race. Commander's action in this comic may not scream Good. But we can't say it wasn't the right one.

Personally, I wouldn't have thrown the guy off the roof. I was thinking more along the lines of "yeah, you can go undercover for us. Somebody gag him and stuff him back in the jail. Don't call us; we'll call you." That is unless he somehow has more information about the resistance than it appears he does.

[Hurkyl]

In this case it seems pretty obvious that the elf commander sees that hobgoblin as a liability, and very likely as a plant

If you continue on to panels five through nine, you should be disabused of the notion that the elf commander thinks of him as anything but vermin to be killed.

[salinan]

Wow, 14 pages already?

I'm amazed at the level of elf-hate here. That hobbo had to die, bottom line. Don't forget that they're vastly outnumbered in hostile territory, so anyone saying "the goblins take prisoners but the elves don't?" is forgetting that it's far easier to be merciful from a position of strength. They couldn't keep the hobgoblin a prisoner.

1. He couldn't have been tied up and left behind. What if he happened to have heard one of the elves making mention of where their hideout is? Or some other similar important information?

2. He couldn't have been taken with them. There's a fair chance of escape enroute, with the confusion of having to lead so many former prisoners, and being a small force, they can ill afford to waste resources having to keep a prisoner under guard. Plus the ever present chance of escape.

The method was perhaps harsh, but it was very much necessary.

[JoseB]

If you continue on to panels five through nine, you should be disabused of the notion that the elf commander thinks of him as anything but vermin to be killed.

I respectfully disagree. Nothing prevents the elf commander from thinking both things: That the hobgoblin is vermin, and that, on top of it, he is a liability (or that he is a liability and that, on top of it, he is vermin).

As well, I think that it still holds that getting rid of the hobgoblin and making sure that his corpse is mangled makes military sense in the circumstances (independently of whether the elf commander thinks, in addition, that hobgoblins are vermin).

[Raging Gene Ray]

I said on multiple occasions I was rooting for the goblins a bit. Yes, I'm still rooting for the goblins. Now more than a bit.

Do you really think that all those prisoners should NOT have been liberated just because ONE really suspicious but unarmed hobgoblin got killed by the Commander? Do you want Niu and Thanh to get what the hobbo got, too?

Really, the worst thing about the Commander's actions is ignoring Thanh's orders without running the hobbo's story by him first.

[Melamoto]

Maybe my memory is failing me, but isn't this the first time we've seen it on the main screen since strip #13?

Yes, but apart from in SoD, the only time humans and goblins have ever interacted with each other in the main strip that was out of a warzone has consisted of either goblins enslaving humans, or humans killing hobgoblins. And when you factor SoD into it, from everything we've seen only a small village with no military force doesn't seem to want to kill the goblins on sight.

Text

Yes, the goblin was not entirely trustworthy, and yes, it wasn't a completely unreasonable option, but compare it to the actions of the goblins. When the goblins have a human at their mercy, they take it to the prisons, and keep it there. They sometimes perform executions, but mostly they keep them alive. It can even be argued that Redcloak kept the humans alive in this strip as an act of compassion, rather than the reason he gave. And this is while the humans still want to kill every last goblin in the city.
Meanwhile, this hobgoblin who openly states that we wishes to join them, is completely at their mercy, and happens to have information that could prove invaluable, is killed because of his species. Doesn't seem like the elves are being quite the same.

Do you really think that all those prisoners should NOT have been liberated just because ONE really suspicious but unarmed hobgoblin got killed by the Commander? Do you want Niu and Thanh to get what the hobbo got, too?

Humans and goblins are enemies, pretty much. It's not really about the fact that they performed a prison break. It's more about the fact that the killing of the hobgoblin was mostly unnecessary, and done out of spite.

I'm amazed at the level of elf-hate here. That hobbo had to die, bottom line. Don't forget that they're vastly outnumbered in hostile territory, so anyone saying "the goblins take prisoners but the elves don't?" is forgetting that it's far easier to be merciful from a position of strength. They couldn't keep the hobgoblin a prisoner.

I disagree. Just because they don't have as many facilities doesn't mean they lack any real power. Caves are big places, and having 2 guards keep him safe for just long enough to verify his claims would hardly be a particularly high cost, considering how much use a spy would be to a resistance group. And even if that wouldn't work, they have elves who could easily take the goblin away to another prison and be summoned back afterwards, if not out of mercy then at least for purposes of interrogation.

[LuisDantas]

And yet, everyone in LotR treats orcs as essentially irredeemable.

To be fair, Tolkien's take on corruption is that it can't be undone without major sacrifice, be it with orcs, humans, or any other species.

That's arguably one of the main themes of Lord of the Rings, as highlighted by a certain dramatic situation close to the ending.

See also how relutant Gandalf is

Spoiler

Show

to wear the One Ring when it is offered to him. He doesn't trust his own ability to find his way back from the temptation of power.

[JoseB]

<...many words...>

It can even be argued that Redcloak kept the humans alive in this strip as an act of compassion, rather than the reason he gave. And this is while the humans still want to kill every last goblin in the city.

As Salinan said a couple of posts above this one: "it is far easier to be merciful from a position of strength".

And, honestly... Well, if I were in the position of the elf commander, I would have done the same as him. That hobgoblin strikes me as being untrustworthy, and I do not have the means to keep him properly prisoner (especially not while I am marching away a big bunch of ex-prisoners at double-speed back to wherever the hideout is).

So, sorry, but that hobgoblin would have been completely dead at my hands. And, if I know that a reasonably intact body can be interrogated post-mortem, I will make sure that his body is mangled beyond recognition. In order to avoid wasting time with that, a fall from a great height gives enough assurance of that.

Maybe I wouldn't have been so cold about it. But would I have killed that hobgoblin, without thinking twice? Yes.

Or, if you want to put it this way, during a commando raid in occupied France in 1943, would I have killed the only obviously German prisoner found in a prison that my commando team has just busted into in order to rescue a bunch of French and Allied prisoners? Yes. That German is *mighty* suspicious, and I simply cannot put my mission in jeopardy on the off-chance (rather small) that this guy is who he says he is. I have no time to check him. Would I, as an Allied commando leader in the middle of WWII, hate and despise the German in question? Very, very probably. Nonetheless, still it makes military sense to get rid of him, independently of my feelings towards him.

That is what military commanders in the field often have to do: To take hard decisions, which are morally dubious no matter what you do.

As I have said before several times: Does the elf commander hate and despise goblinoids? Very probably. But this still doesn't mean that his actions were not tactically sound.

[Melamoto]

As Salinan said a couple of posts above this one: "it is far easier to be merciful from a position of strength".

And, honestly... Well, if I were in the position of the elf commander, I would have done the same as him. That hobgoblin strikes me as being untrustworthy, and I do not have the means to keep him properly prisoner (especially not while I am marching away a big bunch of ex-prisoners at double-speed back to wherever the hideout is).

Like I said before, 2 guards would not be a very large expenditure, especially in a world where lies can be magically detected, meaning it would only take 1 standard action to see if the goblin was trustworthy or not.

So, sorry, but that hobgoblin would have been completely dead at my hands. And, if I know that a reasonably intact body can be interrogated post-mortem, I will make sure that his body is mangled beyond recognition. In order to avoid wasting time with that, a fall from a great height gives enough assurance of that.

This might be a valid point, except as far as we know they've left the other goblin bodies intact. Besides, there's not much that could be gotten from the interrogation anyway. "We were killed. By people. Who were in the resistance. They rescued prisoners."

...Text...
As I have said before several times: On top of all this, does the elf commander hate and despise goblinoids? Very probably. But this still doesn't mean that his actions were not tactically sound.

I'll refer to my earlier point: Lies can be detected. You can assure someone's trust with magic, which the elves clearly have, and so it's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of tolerance.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

I thought this was a pretty good page.

I wonder if it is foreshadowing potential ill will between the two parties though. I mean it seems to be the first major mission for these two groups working together and already the Elves are displaying methods that the Azurites present realize Thanh shouldn't be made aware of.

I generally agree with the feelings that in the context killing the Hobgoblin could be seen as understandable and regrettably the safest, most practical course of action - so not good but not necessarily evil either.

But the way the Elf Commander went about it, and what seemed to be a major motivation in how he went about it isn't justifiable and shows he's also a bit of a bad 'un (and probably intended to be seen as such).

And that he is apparently saying all the time what goblins he considers good goblins... well, I guess alignment wise that doesn't make him evil, though I'd certainly view him as evil leaning neutral. Definitely not good. But then again he never claimed to be good.

I'm hoping for Thanh/Elf commander conflict in future. Not necessarily violent conflict, but verbal maybe. Conflict of opinion, of philosophies or worldviews. That kind of thing.

It also allowed him to mislead the Goblin long enough to kill him without hassle of having to deal with his loosened shackles and hidden weapons.

I don't know, is this an especially high lv Hobgoblin? Even assuming the Elf commander had some reasonable belief the hobgoblin might have hidden weapons and loosened shackles his strike team had just wiped out the entire force guarding the prison so quickly and quietly they couldn't even get a quick spell off - Hobgoblins that were armed and armoured. Even in those kind of situations hobgoblins tend to die almost instantly when stabbed/shot.

If our Elf wanted the hobgoblin dead quickly and with no fuss is this near naked bound one really going to be such a problem it requires a ploy to get him to the edge of the building so he can be pushed to his death? Was our Elf really thinking "We can't let him live, but if he realizes that he could cast off his shackles, draw a concealed weapon from his loin cloth and cause an unacceptable amount of fuss before myself and the three others with me could put an end to him"?

I tend to think from his good goblins, dead goblins bit it wouldn't matter the circumstances. He hates them and he had a chance to have some fun with one that was no immediate threat but would always have to be dealt with.

[salinan]

I disagree. Just because they don't have as many facilities doesn't mean they lack any real power.

What makes you think they have any facilities appropriate for keeping a prisoner? They are holed up where they can. It's quite possible that they need to move on a regular basis. Keeping a prisoner under those conditions, where it will impact on your mobility, would be an increased risk, and for what?

Caves are big places, and having 2 guards keep him safe for just long enough to verify his claims would hardly be a particularly high cost, considering how much use a spy would be to a resistance group.

Verify what, exactly? That he doesn't like goblins? That's hardly of much use to the resistance. And the likelihood of him having any information of any importance is vanishingly small. And the possibility of him turning coat to help them is also vanishingly small - he would have no reason to do so. While possibly he doesn't like goblins, it's unlikely he also hates hobgoblins. He may not like Redcloak for having jailed him, but that's not likely to be a reason to turn traitor.

And even if that wouldn't work, they have elves who could easily take the goblin away to another prison and be summoned back afterwards, if not out of mercy then at least for purposes of interrogation.

For which they'd have to escort him a long way out of town, again wasting resources on an escort. And increasing risk again also, since the most vulnerable time for a prisoner escape is during transportation. And again, the likelihood of him having any useful info worth the effort and risk is minimal.

[2xMachina]

Rangers are inherently racist. Look at their class features. Favored Enemy of a certain race. They like to kill those. They know very well how to kill those.

Also, should have Speak with Dead for the info. Or used the spatula as asked, and brought it along so that it can't be raised/speak with dead. Secrecy is needed.

Good/Neutral/Evil, does it matter? Not a Paladin, nor of a class that has alignment restrictions.

[Melamoto]

What makes you think they have any facilities appropriate for keeping a prisoner? They are holed up where they can. It's quite possible that they need to move on a regular basis. Keeping a prisoner under those conditions, where it will impact on your mobility, would be an increased risk, and for what?

As far as we are aware, they have been in the same caves the whole time, and since they mention taking prisoners to the tunnels, they are probably still there.

Verify what, exactly? That he doesn't like goblins? That's hardly of much use to the resistance. And the likelihood of him having any information of any importance is vanishingly small. And the possibility of him turning coat to help them is also vanishingly small - he would have no reason to do so. While possibly he doesn't like goblins, it's unlikely he also hates hobgoblins. He may not like Redcloak for having jailed him, but that's not likely to be a reason to turn traitor.

To verify that he's willing to be a turncoat like he said he would. If he won't be, then go ahead and execute him. If he will be, then congratulations, you now have an actual spy.

For which they'd have to escort him a long way out of town, again wasting resources on an escort. And increasing risk again also, since the most vulnerable time for a prisoner escape is during transportation. And again, the likelihood of him having any useful info worth the effort and risk is minimal.

They teleported before, they can teleport again. It has already been revealed that cloister allows for summoning things back inside, and so there would be no need to worry about getting back. And although he isn't likely to know a lot of things, he has lived in the society before, and likely understands a number of things that could be useful to the resistance.

[Deliverance]

Yes, the goblin was not entirely trustworthy, and yes, it wasn't a completely unreasonable option, but compare it to the actions of the goblins. When the goblins have a human at their mercy, they take it to the prisons, and keep it there.

What on earth do you base that conclusion on?

Let's face it: For the goblins to have only enough humans as prisoners that they fill up one prison or a couple of prisons, which is certainly what the story seems to have indicated so far, it has to mean that everybody, who was not imprisoned or otherwise escaped, from the fall of a major city was evacuated by the shipping available at the time the city fell.

This isn't a village or town with a few thousand people we are talking about - the hobgoblin army fielded something like 30,000 soldiers against an opposition that, while outnumbered, was set to give a good defense of themselves that might well have succeeded were it not for the superior magic of the opposition.

Even if the attack had been known well in advance and all available shipping called in from everywhere nearby, there's no way to evacuate an entire city population on a short notice, and this was not the case.

No, it is entirely more reasonable to assume that a major part of the city's population did not escape on the ships and were either killed outright or managed to flee to the countryside during the sack and looting with only a minority of the humans who ended up at the mercy of the hobgoblins ending up surviving in cushy prisons as slaves. Slavery is the survivor's problem, something that generally happens after order has been secured by main force and the dirty deeds have been done.

That would, not incidentally, also be a far better match to the real world consequences of armies taking a city by assault.

There is no need to portray the sack and looting of the city or the mass slaughter of common citizens involved in a comic such as this as it bears absolutely no importance for the main focus of the comic, but it can certainly be assumed to happen so long as the parties involved behave like humans would... which is part of the point of the comic, after all: Human, hobgoblin, elf... you can pretty much assume that they'll be acting like real life humans would in the same situation most of the time.

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The elven commander in #707 is a good case in point - killing off that hobgoblin in the way he does it is at the same time: pragmatic (both in getting rid of an inconvenience and in doing it in a way that'll get around the high-horse morality of Than if the witnesses cooperate), racist, a bit sadistic, and entirely justifiable in the situation.

In other words, the reason that his actions have taken some 14 pages to discuss so far (and will probably go further than that) is that they are so utterly human - and something that, depending on our viewpoint, we could see a "good man" doing in a bad situation or could only see a "bad man" doing.

Regardless of that, it certainly does paint the elven commander as awesome to many people, both those who agree with his actions and those who disagree with it - so long as people remember the meaning of the word "awesome" and "awe" rather than merely thinking of it as a generic term meaning something alike to "very good and impressive". :)