Warhammer 40K Tactics VI: Chaos Bringing Eternal Darkness? I brought my flashlight.

[mr.fizzypop]

Thanks, for the help. Now what would the best way to deal with him, with a Tyranid army?

[Winterwind]

The first thing that came to my mind would be Mawlocs. Those should mess up his Infantry pretty well.

Also, throw enough Hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs against the Avatar, and it should go down.

But, I have little experience with Tyranids, so I'd rather await the advice of a more experienced player.

[Arcanoi]

Swarmlord with Full Retinue of Guards. Probably the only thing that can kick Eldrad and Co's teeth down their throats in a straight up fight. Bonus points if Eldrad and Co are on bikes and you model the Swarmlord riding a Ducati.

Mawloc to DS his infantry. Mawloc is probably better, but an Alpha Trigon wouldn't do too badly either.

Other than that, Zoanthropes should do well, so stock up, since they can impede psychic powers. You'd probably do better with a Gaunt Swarm than a bunch of heavies, the only thing you have to worry about being the Dire Avengers.

Also, the jump-infantry HQ who spawns all the Ripper bases, if he can get into CC with the Guardians, can easily win you the game by ripping apart his troop squads.

[Cheesegear]

What I am saying is, certain choices in codizes may be sub-optimal and non-suited for high level play, so I'm glad to be playing on a level where I can survive taking a sub-optimal unit or several because I happen to like the unit's fluff or model.

You play Chaos Marines, right? You're lucky. With the exception of Raptors and Bikes, there aren't actually any bad units in the entire Army. You can, actually pick anything you want with Chaos Marines and still be reasonably effective.

This isn't the case, for armies like Chaos Daemons or Imperial Guard, where there are bad units, and, if you take certain units, you will lose.

(assuming 'Necron Phalanx' is meant in the same sense as in the codex, i.e. large blocks of Necron infantry moving forward side by side)

No. The new 'Phalanx' is exactly what is meant by the original Greek word. That is, blocks upon blocks upon blocks of units that are really hard to kill.

Not the modern-English version, or, what is presented in the Codex.

The 'real' Phalanx is ~1000+ points of Warriors (~50-60 {more than non-Scout Marines will have}), 2 Monoliths and a C'Tan/3rd Monolith. If you position your Monoliths right, your Warriors should always be getting a WBB roll.

It might also be known as the 'Necron Turtle Formation', since, a lot of people get 'Phalanx' confused with the crap in the Codex.


Also...
Eldar 2000 points - not enough Troops.

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Avatar					155

Farseer					155
Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones
Doom, Fortune

Warlocks (x5)				195
Spiritseer; Embolden, Singing Spear
Conceal, Singing Spear
Enhance, Singing Spear
x2 Destructors

ELITES
Fire Dragons (x7)			284
Exarch; Dragon's Breath Flamer, Crack Shot, Tank Hunters
-
Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launcher, Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones

Striking Scorpions (x6)			138
Exarch; Biting Blade, Stalker, Shadowstrike

TROOPS
Dire Avengers (x10)			205
Exarch; Power Weapon and Shimmershield, Defend, Bladestorm
-
Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launcher, Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones

Dire Avengers (x10)			205
Exarch; Power Weapon and Shimmershield, Defend, Bladestorm
-
Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launcher, Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones

HEAVY SUPPORT
Wraithlord				155
x2 Flamers, Bright Lance, Eldar Missile Launcher

Wraithlord				120
x2 Flamers, Scatter Laser, Wraithblade

War Walker Squadron (x3)		180
x2 Scatter Lasers ea.
Scouts/Outflank

Total:				       1992

[banjo1985]

You play Chaos Marines, right? You're lucky. With the exception of Raptors and Bikes, there aren't actually any bad units in the entire Army. You can, actually pick anything you want with Chaos Marines and still be reasonably effective.

The fact that Bikes and Raptors are the only Fast Attack choices in the codex makes that a pretty big problem though. Chaos are not the most mobile of forces to begin with, and without Fast Attack it just gets worse. It's just fortunate that Chaos are often durable enough to foot-slog across a battlefield.

I find myself using my bikes most of the time, as other than summoned daemons there aren't many other options for a decent interception unit. They're overpriced, but at least they move quickly and can put a bit of anti-infantry firepower out. Raptors are even more overpriced, and I find DSing Terminators a more effective use of the points.

[Oslecamo]

The fact that Bikes and Raptors are the only Fast Attack choices in the codex makes that a pretty big problem though. Chaos are not the most mobile of forces to begin with, and without Fast Attack it just gets worse. It's just fortunate that Chaos are often durable enough to foot-slog across a battlefield.

Demon lord with wings is a secret chaos fast attack choice. Properly pimped up it can intercept pretty much anything on the field, from vehicles to all but elite infantry.

I've also seen chaos sorceror on bike used to great effect to quickly aproach the enemy lines.

I find myself using my bikes most of the time, as other than summoned daemons there aren't many other options for a decent interception unit. They're overpriced, but at least they move quickly and can put a bit of anti-infantry firepower out. Raptors are even more overpriced, and I find DSing Terminators a more effective use of the points.

Notice also that vanilla chaos termies are just 30 points each compared to loyalists 40. They don't get fancy stuff like storm shields/thunder hammers, but twin linker bolter+power weapon will shred most infantry out there all right even whitout upgrading, altough a couple lighting claws/chain fists don't hurt either.

[Cheesegear]

The fact that Bikes and Raptors are the only Fast Attack choices in the codex makes that a pretty big problem though. Chaos are not the most mobile of forces to begin with, and without Fast Attack it just gets worse. It's just fortunate that Chaos are often durable enough to foot-slog across a battlefield.

You don't really need Raptors and Bikes though. I don't personally know of anyone who actually wants to take them anyway 'because it fits their play-style'.
...Except if you played Night Lords during 3.5. Then you've been gypped.

The average CSM unit with a Banner of Nurgle or Tzeentch is still plenty durable enough to take a lot of firepower. Even without Rhinos. The fact that most Chaos units are also Fearless really, really does help.

All units in the Codex can take a Personal Icon, so, Deep Striking rarely goes wrong. Daemon Spam is also a very speedy tactic, as Daemons can Assault the turn they come in. Likewise with the 'vanilla' Greater Daemon - who is pretty awesome.

Then you've got Infiltrating Chosen.

All backed up by some pretty powerful ranged units in Obliterators, Defilers and Vindicators.

The misconception that 'only Fast Attack choices are Fast' is pretty...Incorrect. The Chaos 'Rhino Rush' army still exists, and is still pretty effective. Despite the fact that they get 2nd Turn Assaults rather than 1st Turn Assaults.

They're overpriced, but at least they move quickly and can put a bit of anti-infantry firepower out. Raptors are even more overpriced, and I find DSing Terminators a more effective use of the points.

Raptors are more overpriced than Bikes!?
You're mistaken.

Chaos are paying an extra 8 points per model on Bikes compared to Space Marines. Where Raptors are only paying an extra 2. The Aspiring Champion is costly though. But, Raptors (and Bikes) come with an extra point of Leadership. Bikes also get an extra Attack.
Raptors also get access to dual-Meltaguns. Which non-BA Assault Marines don't get.

Still, Raptors with Icons dropping Terminators and Daemons are very effective. Chosen can also do the same job, but, it's slightly more dangerous as they Infiltrate and leaving Infiltrators on their own for at least one turn is never a very good idea.
Chaos Lords with Jump Packs and Icons start dropping Daemons before they are able to make it into Assault as well.

Also, Daemon Princes. Ninja'd.

[Winterwind]

You play Chaos Marines, right? You're lucky. With the exception of Raptors and Bikes, there aren't actually any bad units in the entire Army. You can, actually pick anything you want with Chaos Marines and still be reasonably effective.

This isn't the case, for armies like Chaos Daemons or Imperial Guard, where there are bad units, and, if you take certain units, you will lose.

Even on tournament level? I thought you had to pick the absolutely most effective units and cheesy combos you could wrench out of the codex in order to have a chance...

As for the Raptors/Bikes, I think they are kinda like Noise Marines - paying extra points for the privilege of being allowed to take certain equipment, with which they become good, but without which they are overpriced. In the case of the Raptors/Bikes, those would be the Icons, which allow you to make such things as T4(6) Bikes, something regular Space Marine Bikers can only dream of.

And, Bikes may be somewhat overpriced, but Raptors? They aren't that much more expensive than regular Chaos Space Marines; sure, they lose their bolter, but they can jump and they can take two special weapons even in smaller units. I don't quite see why they would be so bad.

No. The new 'Phalanx' is exactly what is meant by the original Greek word. That is, blocks upon blocks upon blocks of units that are really hard to kill.

Not the modern-English version, or, what is presented in the Codex.

The 'real' Phalanx is ~1000+ points of Warriors (~50-60 {more than non-Scout Marines will have}), 2 Monoliths and a C'Tan/3rd Monolith. If you position your Monoliths right, your Warriors should always be getting a WBB roll.

It might also be known as the 'Necron Turtle Formation', since, a lot of people get 'Phalanx' confused with the crap in the Codex.

Ah. Well, my friend will be happy, then, because this is precisely what he intends to play (only with 3 Monoliths and C'Tan). The difference being that he intends to keep all his Warriors in reserve to prevent the enemy from being capable of shooting him into Phase Out, leaving only the indestructible things on the board.

[banjo1985]

All units in the Codex can take a Personal Icon, so, Deep Striking rarely goes wrong. Daemon Spam is also a very speedy tactic, as Daemons can Assault the turn they come in. Likewise with the 'vanilla' Greater Daemon - who is pretty awesome.

I need to read my codex better. Gods, that's made my daemons eminently more playable.

To be fair my preference of Bikes over Raptors is just personal experience; the Raptors seem to die horribly bouncing melta weapons off tanks, while the bikes whizz around the place disrupting the opponents infantry formations. Having said that I'm a pretty casual player, so I probably don't use either unit to the best of it's ability. I really need to get me a daemon prince from the sound of it, give my opponents something else to fire at to protect Vinnie and Vaarsuvius (my 2 Vindicators).

[Cheesegear]

Even on tournament level? I thought you had to pick the absolutely most effective units and cheesy combos you could wrench out of the codex in order to have a chance...

No. That just gives you a better chance of winning. If the draw is truly random like it's supposed to be, then, who knows what will happen?

Occaisionally in Australia (and probably others places), players are matched by Comp Score, rather than by lot/draw. But, that probably has no relevance to you - I'm just saying.

I don't quite see why [Raptors] would be so bad.

They're not. Not really. It's the Aspiring Champion most people get so hung up on, that they have to pay an extra 15 points for Leadership 10...

The difference being that he intends to keep all his Warriors in reserve to prevent the enemy from being capable of shooting him into Phase Out, leaving only the indestructible things on the board.

Hmm...That could work. He wont make any friends and people to play with might be hard to find after a while...The stronger lists are like that.

I need to read my codex better. Gods, that's made my daemons eminently more playable.

Chaos Space Marine vanilla Daemons and Greater Daemons can Assault after Deep Strike. Chaos Daemons (the army) can not.

One of the latest lists I saw (not counting upgrades I don't remember)
Daemon Prince, Icon
Daemon Prince, Icon
<Unit> Icon, Rhino/Flight
<Unit> Icon, Rhino/Flight
<Unit> Icon, Rhino/Flight
<Unit> Icon, Rhino/Flight
Greater Daemon
Then units of 5 Daemons until points ran out.

Just hoping you aren't confusing the two.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Likewise with the 'vanilla' Greater Daemon - who is pretty awesome.

Really? Mine got killed in melee by 30 guardsmen. His inability to fly when everyone uses the bloodthirster model for him also sucks.

Chaos Spawn are also pretty fast and cheap. Or can be.

I know it ain't gonna happen but I wish the next edition of the chaos codex was like the 6th edition warhammer hordes of chaos book, where you chose either a mortal or daemon general and that made some units core and others rare. So if you had a chaos lord you could get chaos space marines as troops but still get 0-1 soulgrinders, while if you took a greater daemon you got daemons as troops and chaos space marines as elites and as many soul grinders as you wanted.

[Winterwind]

No. That just gives you a better chance of winning. If the draw is truly random like it's supposed to be, then, who knows what will happen?

Occaisionally in Australia (and probably others places), players are matched by Comp Score, rather than by lot/draw. But, that probably has no relevance to you - I'm just saying.

Mmm, alright then.

They're not. Not really. It's the Aspiring Champion most people get so hung up on, that they have to pay an extra 15 points for Leadership 10...

Eh, that's kinda normal for Chaos though...

Hmm...That could work. He wont make any friends and people to play with might be hard to find after a while...The stronger lists are like that.

I told him that, to which he responded that he sure as hell is not going to be playing with a sub-par list just because people are whiners. All the more when he is using an outdated codex (all this reading of Necron forums seems to have given him the idea the Necrons have been so tremendously weakened by the 5th edition that such tactics are needed for them to stay competitive.

We got into a bit of an argument over that (I'm still a bit cranky over him calling me naive for caring about my opponents having fun, too).

[Cheesegear]

Really? Mine got killed in melee by 30 guardsmen. His inability to fly when everyone uses the bloodthirster model for him also sucks.

What was he running into tarpits of Guardsmen for?

I use the Keeper of Secrets. Since it can't fly.

I told him that, to which he responded that he sure as hell is not going to be playing with a sub-par list just because people are whiners.

That dude needs a kick in the nuts. That kind of behaviour is so...Not tolerated, it's a rule; In a big, giant box on page 2 of the rulebook.

It's why I run Bikes/Land Speeders in friendly games. Instead of all-Scouts and double/triple Thunderfire Cannons. I like having friends and people who actually want to play me.

all this reading of Necron forums seems to have given him the idea the Necrons have been so tremendously weakened by the 5th edition that such tactics are needed for them to stay competitive.

Yes and No.
The only 'nerf' Necrons got was the changes to the Glancing Hit table. If your opponent is running vehicle-light, you've got no problems at all since Assault has also taken a 'nerf' and Necrons don't like being in Assault. Vehicles (not including Transports) aren't taken a whole lot in tournament settings as they tend to die in the first two turns. Therefore; Necrons rock. They're not underpowered at all. Like Dark Eldar or Black Templars.
'Outdated Codex' doesn't mean anything if your army is still viable. Which Necrons are.

50+ Warriors and at least one Monolith is kind of needed to stay competitive. But, they were that way in 4th too.
But, holding all your units in Reserve is overdoing it for any game that doesn't take place in a tournament setting.

[Closet_Skeleton]

What was he running into tarpits of Guardsmen for?

They were the only thing in assault range and I figured he'd be safer there than in the firing line of ratlings and meltagun toting veterans. I could have summoned him somewhere else but my only other remaining aspiring champions were terminators or way back with my possessed who took the whole game to get anywhere.

I use the Keeper of Secrets. Since it can't fly.

Ugh. That model sucks. If only it looked like the forgeworld one...

[Oslecamo]

Yeah, the super-vanilla great daemon whitout special powers whatsoever atracts a lot of flak from chaos fans.

Chaos Space Marine vanilla Daemons and Greater Daemons can Assault after Deep Strike. Chaos Daemons (the army) can not.

One of the latest lists I saw (not counting upgrades I don't remember)
Daemon Prince, Icon
Daemon Prince, Icon
<Unit> Icon, Rhino/Flight
<Unit> Icon, Rhino/Flight
<Unit> Icon, Rhino/Flight
<Unit> Icon, Rhino/Flight
Greater Daemon
Then units of 5 Daemons until points ran out.

Well, that just means the lesser demons and greater daemon are as fast as the rest of your army, since one can only deepstrike near icons and the other near command units.

On the other hand, it should indeed be pretty funny to see the tough chaos units close in with the icons and then sudenly pop up half your army right in charge range of the squishy enemy ranged units.

Personally, I never saw the lesser daemons as specialy atractive. 13 points for a dude with two S4 attacks, WS4 and a 5+ save doesn't seems that hot. But the fact that they won't take shooting casualities surely helps, and the save is invulnerable wich further helps against power weapons/claws, so they may indeed paying themselves up.

Can they capture points? It says they aren't part of the force organization, but that otherwise count as troops.

[Winterwind]

That dude needs a kick in the nuts. That kind of behaviour is so...Not tolerated, it's a rule; In a big, giant box on page 2 of the rulebook.

It's why I run Bikes/Land Speeders in friendly games. Instead of all-Scouts and double/triple Thunderfire Cannons. I like having friends and people who actually want to play me.

He's a powergamer; he derives his fun in all games - be their roleplaying games, Magic: The Gathering or tabletops - to a large degree from mastering the system and his prowess to create as strong and mighty characters/decks/armies/strategies as possible.

Which would be fine, if not for that uncompromising attitude of not tempering this for the benefit of others. Which kinda shocked me, because I have not seen him be so egoistical before. He says he's there to play and win games, not make friends (as he has enough of them), and if people are not willing to play him, that's their problem for being whiners; I think the main problem is he seems to think that winning is all the game is about to everyone, failing to understand some people take other aspects into account when writing their army lists beside just raw power.

Yes and No.
The only 'nerf' Necrons got was the changes to the Glancing Hit table. If your opponent is running vehicle-light, you've got no problems at all since Assault has also taken a 'nerf' and Necrons don't like being in Assault. Vehicles (not including Transports) aren't taken a whole lot in tournament settings as they tend to die in the first two turns. Therefore; Necrons rock. They're not underpowered at all. Like Dark Eldar or Black Templars.
'Outdated Codex' doesn't mean anything if your army is still viable. Which Necrons are.

The other nerf Necrons took would be a change to Leadership tests in close combat; by my understanding the side losing the combat would take just a Leadership test in previous editions (which Necrons with Ld 10 would usually pass), whereas now it is modified by how many Wounds the combat was lost by (which Necrons may not pass due to their inferior close combat capabilities in comparison to many others), causing them to break and be overrun due to their low Initiative, killing the entire squad with no We'll Be Back allowed.

50+ Warriors and at least one Monolith is kind of needed to stay competitive. But, they were that way in 4th too.
But, holding all your units in Reserve is overdoing it for any game that doesn't take place in a tournament setting.

I'm not even sure if it doesn't effectively hurt him more than it benefits him, considering in a non-tournament setting it is unlikely there is enough firepower around to shoot the Necron into Phase Out in the first place (if he brings so many Warriors), so having all the Warriors' firepower to help take out whatever might endanger his Monoliths/C'Tan after all might be less risky than having them in reserve.

Can they capture points? It says they aren't part of the force organization, but that otherwise count as troops.

I'm pretty sure they can.

[Cheesegear]

Which would be fine, if not for that uncompromising attitude of not tempering this for the benefit of others. Which kinda shocked me, because I have not seen him be so egoistical before. He says he's there to play and win games, not make friends (as he has enough of them), and if people are not willing to play him, that's their problem for being whiners

Ah, cancel that. People wont want to play his list. They wont want to play him. And that's an entirely different kettle of fish. If GW is to be believed, the hobby is for ages 10 and up. Coincidentally, I may have told this story before, but, it applies; There was a Necron player (3 Monoliths, of course), who, during the course of the game, made his opponent - who was no more than 12 or 13 - cry. He was in his mid-20s or so.

Despite the fact that the game didn't concern us, and we weren't part of it, the whole club knew what happened, and that people like that shouldn't be allowed to play the game. He then turned up the next week to club, when he asked for a game, people simply either ignored him, or said "Yep, you win. Game over. Good game."

It wasn't about his list (we've all played overpowered lists before) it was his attitude towards people. No-one over the age of 12 should be making 12 year-olds cry. We weren't whining about his overpowered list. We were simply just choosing to ignore someone who had pissed us all off.
...Making a kid cry. It makes me angry just typing it.

That guy never came back after the Games Night where he spent 6 hours there and didn't get one game. He then whined about it. There were actually heaps of people looking for games, just not with him. Because they'd heard that he's an arsehat. And that 13 year-old is now actually a club-favourite. Though his Dad is not.

Your friend will end up having hundreds of dollars worth of models, and he'll never even play a game. Sounds like fun.
No...Wait. It's other peoples' fault they don't want to play him. Yeah.
That sounds right. Right?

Having all the Warriors' firepower to help take out whatever might endanger his Monoliths/C'Tan after all might be less risky than having them in reserve.

That's what I was thinking.

[Selrahc]

Chaos Space Marine vanilla Daemons and Greater Daemons can Assault after Deep Strike. Chaos Daemons (the army) can not.

Yes. I didn't notice that the Chaos Daemons army didn't have that rule until after a few games. Made them a lot less powerful for sure.

[banjo1985]

Yeah, we have one player who's lucky to still get games due to his affinity for cheese armies. Facing 9 Broadsides is perfectly legal but not much fun when it's every single game. Got the bugger last time though, I footslogged units of Plague Marines and Thousand Sons across the table right at him. He shot them to pieces, leaving only the cahmpion in each, who then proceeding to murder all nine Broadsides over the next two turns. He's a nice guy other than that though, and is both a pretty good loser and winner. He also only finaihsed a point about me in our club tournament, so he can't be that good. Someone being such an uncomprimising smudge on the arse of the world that make kids cry and potentially turn them away from the hobby make me a sad panda.

Also, something I've been trying to do for a long while now without much success. Is there any way of making a decent Tau force (1250-1500 points) without going heavy on battlesuits? I don't like the battlesuit models, and want to play the Tau differently to said chap above, who uses as many big suits as possible.

[Winterwind]

[story]

Yeah, I remember you telling that story before. Something about DSing all three Monoliths on an objective, pushing the other player unit's away, folding arms and saying "I bet you will not get them away.", or something like that, wasn't it?

Your friend will end up having hundreds of dollars worth of models, and he'll never even play a game. Sounds like fun.
No...Wait. It's other peoples' fault they don't want to play him. Yeah.
That sounds right. Right?

I pretty much told him that, too, and he replied that, well, that'd be too bad, but he still won't be weakening his list just to accommodate others, because he wouldn't be having fun with a sub-par list.
He's usually a pretty nice and sociable guy, so I suspect there was some major miscommunication between the two of us. Such contempt for others as his words would imply would be completely out of character for him. Which is the main reason why that discussion rather upset me.

That's what I was thinking.

Though his logic is that if that strategy works against a tournament-level list, it should work even better against a non-tournament-level list.

[Dark Faun]

Funny how "overoverkill" comes to mind.

Though, since the Necrons are supposed to be that relentless force of unstoppable death, wouldn't "No Mercy. No Respite. No Fun." be the fluffy way to play them?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Though, since the Necrons are supposed to be that relentless force of unstoppable death, wouldn't "No Mercy. No Respite. No Fun." be the fluffy way to play them?

As opposed to hiding you mean?

[Wraith]

Despite the fact that the game didn't concern us, and we weren't part of it, the whole club knew what happened, and that people like that shouldn't be allowed to play the game. He then turned up the next week to club, when he asked for a game, people simply either ignored him, or said "Yep, you win. Game over. Good game."

I'd play him. I have absolutely no compunctions with running 30 Wraithguard, 9 D-Cannons and a couple of Fortune-Seers in a 2000 point game and making people cry in the second turn.

I pretty much told him [that no one would play him and he'd be wasting money], too, and he replied that, well, that'd be too bad, but he still won't be weakening his list just to accommodate others, because he wouldn't be having fun with a sub-par list.

Waitaminute.... His army is so 'awesome' that he would never, ever get to use it, and he's happy with that?

He... I... What!?

Though, since the Necrons are supposed to be that relentless force of unstoppable death, wouldn't "No Mercy. No Respite. No Fun." be the fluffy way to play them?

Only in the same sense that an Ork player is allowed to walk over and stamp on your models if they successfully kill his troops. It doesn't say in the rules that he's not allowed to do that, so that just makes him cunnin' an' propa stompy, right?

[Closet_Skeleton]

I'd get bored pretty fast using the same "optimum" list every game. I like trying odd lists and finding out what's subpar for myself.

Of course that's a strain on my bank balance

[Ricky S]

Yea you can make a competitive Tau army list without broadsides. I saw an ok list recently. It was something like this.

Shas'El Twin linked missile pods

Crisis team twin linked missile pods (something else BSF? TA? cant remember)

Firewarrior x 6 in Devilfish with SMS, Disruption Pod and Multitracker
Firewarrior x 6 in Devilfish with SMS, Disruption Pod and Multitracker
Firewarrior x 6 in Devilfish with SMS, Disruption Pod and Multitracker
Firewarrior x 6 in Devilfish with SMS, Disruption Pod and Multitracker

Hammerhead Rail gun, SMS, disruption pod, multitracker and Target Lock
Hammerhead Rail gun, SMS, disruption pod, multitracker and Target Lock
Sky Ray, SMS, Disruption Pod.

Basically you keep the whole army moving and pouring out fire as it moves. It lacks the anti armour punch of other tau armies but did pretty well in the tournament. It takes some getting used to though and the player said he had to take quite a few games to get good at using them.

To be honest it is really difficult to make a Tau army really good without broadsides as the HH fires only one shot as opposed to Broadsides 3 twinlinked shots in a full unit and there is no other real Anti Armour unit out there apart from battlesuits with fusion blasters and the sky ray. But the battlesuits are close range (and you dont like suits) and the sky ray is only strength 8 which will stuggle to damage the armour 14 of leman russes, monoliths, landraiders and whatever else is av 14.

I think he focussed on killing infantry and capturing objectives and basically ignored the units too hard to destroy as the enemy likewise found it difficult to destroy the wall of av 12 with disruption pods.

Alternatively play an all kroot army?

[Winterwind]

Waitaminute.... His army is so 'awesome' that he would never, ever get to use it, and he's happy with that?

He... I... What!?

I think it's perfectionist thought - better to not play at all than play with a sub-par list. Or maybe a matter of principle - not letting people he considers to be whiners win.

There is also that apparently he overheard the Games Workshop employees at his local shop talking to some 13-year-old kid who wanted advice on how to play Chaos, who told that kid to get dual Lash Daemon Princes. That made him think he absolutely needed such lists and strategies to stay competitive.

That's kinda funny, because at my local shop, the employees specifically told me getting dual Lashes might not be a good idea because it would make everybody hate me (I had not been considering doing that anyway).

[Dark Faun]

Speaking of dual stuff...

I'm interested in getting a Wraithlord, more for the model than for the game (as my choices should make obvious), but still, I do want to know what's the... least suboptimal of the two choices I'm interested in: wraithsword and dual flamers or wraithsword and dual shuriken catapults?

[Erloas]

Also...
Eldar 2000 points - not enough Troops.

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Avatar					155

Farseer					155
Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones
Doom, Fortune

Warlocks (x5)				195
Spiritseer; Embolden, Singing Spear
Conceal, Singing Spear
Enhance, Singing Spear
x2 Destructors

ELITES
Fire Dragons (x7)			284
Exarch; Dragon's Breath Flamer, Crack Shot, Tank Hunters
-
Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launcher, Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones

Striking Scorpions (x6)			138
Exarch; Biting Blade, Stalker, Shadowstrike

TROOPS
Dire Avengers (x10)			205
Exarch; Power Weapon and Shimmershield, Defend, Bladestorm
-
Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launcher, Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones

Dire Avengers (x10)			205
Exarch; Power Weapon and Shimmershield, Defend, Bladestorm
-
Wave Serpent
Twin-Linked Eldar Missile Launcher, Shuriken Cannon
Spirit Stones

HEAVY SUPPORT
Wraithlord				155
x2 Flamers, Bright Lance, Eldar Missile Launcher

Wraithlord				120
x2 Flamers, Scatter Laser, Wraithblade

War Walker Squadron (x3)		180
x2 Scatter Lasers ea.
Scouts/Outflank

Total:				       1992

Well, as you said, not enough troops.
I would also drop the shuriken cannon upgrades on all the wave serpents because they will rarely be used since they are not defensive weapons.
I also wouldn't take the EMLs on them because its kind of a waste of the TL on the WS, I would either take Scatter Lasers for light vehicles and anti-infantry, or take Bright Lances for real anti-tank capabilities.

On foot, and given the rest of your army, I don't know what the purpose of the warlock retinue is. They aren't going to handle anything the Wraithlords and Avatar can't take care of, and they have the same effective range. And being the spiritseer for the wraithlords means they can't even go after other targets. Although you do still have to have a warlock with spiritseer for the wraithlords, but you can pick up a unit of guardians with scatter laser or shuriken cannon and the warlock for half the cost, have another troop choice, and it would be fearless with twice as many wounds. You could also get cover easy enough by keeping the unit just behind the wraithlords and avatar. And not having the retinue lets the farseer go with the avengers if you think they need it or stay with the guardians. It also frees up enough points for a small unit of jetbikes, more troops and more speed.

I'm also not sure what the Doom on the farseer is doing for you with this list, as you have plenty of anti-infantry without it and so much of your units are already high str you won't need many rerolls. I could see some use with the dire avengers, but it seems mostly like overkill then necessary, and there is the fact that the farseer can't stay with either dire avenger unit.

I also don't think I would give both units of Dire Avengers Wave Serpents. Sure it lets them jump to an objective in the last turn... but only if the WS lasts that long. They have enough range that they can lay down a lot of fire without having to be dropped in so close to the enemy. And for at least one of them, both of the objectives based scenarios you have at least some objectives close enough to your own deployment that you don't need a transport to get there quickly, and if the opponent has any hope of winning they will have to be heading to those points anyway. Dropping a WS frees up the points for another unit of Jetbikes too, another troop choice that can move just as fast as the WS and is easier to hide.

[Wraith]

Speaking of dual stuff...

I'm interested in getting a Wraithlord, more for the model than for the game (as my choices should make obvious), but still, I do want to know what's the... least suboptimal of the two choices I'm interested in: wraithsword and dual flamers or wraithsword and dual shuriken catapults?

I personally would go with the Flamers.

It's a Close-Combat Wraithlord and those things generally serve a specific purpose: To stroll over the battlefield and crush the biggest, nastiest thing they can find. And a couple of s4 ap5 shots from shuriken catapults aren't going to help you kill Abaddon or a C'Tan.

With that in mind, one glaring problem is that Wraihtlord only have 2 attacks, so getting swamped by a large unit of expendable minions is a distinct setback. A pair of flamers, while still useless against things like tanks and MEQs, will help you thin out hordes much more easily, and allow the 'Lord to get on with something more constructive.

[Lycan 01]

And that 13 year-old is now actually a club-favourite. Though his Dad is not.

You've told that story before, but I never heard that the kid came back. I seem to recall you saying the kid never came to another game... I'm glad to hear he came back and gave the hobby another shot. It would have been terrible if that guys kept him from wanting to ever play again.

What's wrong with his Dad? Please tell me he's not that guy...



So basically, my Librarian issue should be solved with the following tactics:
Keep Distance
Power Klaws
Moar Dakka!
Even Moar Dakka!!

Shouldn't be too much of a problem, then...



Oh, I flipped through the Daemonhunters Codex the other day. Seems like they've got some interesting units and options. I especially liked the idea of custom Inquisitors made from bitz and cool units.


So, what would ya'll suggest for an Imperial Guard army with Daemonhunter allies? Anybody got a suggested 750 or 1K point list lying around?