Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge IV

[Akal Saris]

I stayed away from SLA abuse because one of the judges said he didn't want to see any :P I looked into it a little anyhow, but there wasn't a whole lot that I could find to abuse with them, since their CL was too low for empowering/quickening and most of the SLA's are really mediocre.

Sorry to hear that you weren't in this one Strategos - I had guessed that you were Torar Stoneshield, actually :P

Cieyrin: OMG. So Races of Faerun is where those were!!! An urdunnir library was the center of one of my old 2E campaigns in Undermountain, I love those guys. They looked so badass in the 2E monstrous compendium too!

[Amphetryon]

Check the sidebar on page 6 of the XPH for another fun Dwarf option.

[Heliomance]

Just thought I'd point out that there are a couple of builds this time round that use flaws. Don't forget that's an automatic lost elegance point.

Overall, though, some stunning builds. Although there's one or two people that I think are breaking the anonymity of the contest simply by producing such high-quality builds every time that we can tellwho made them!

[Private-Prinny]

O_o

That's a lot of entries... Well, here I go.

Belrid, One with the Stone
Originality: 4. I don't have much experience with MoI, so this was a bit of a curveball for me. It has a nice flavor, and the two Prestige Classes fit well thematically.
Power: 3.5. Totemist seems quite powerful, but I'm not sure what Stonelord does with it besides provide BAB. The only thing I can think of is a bit of Earth Power abuse with the Girallon Arms. You might've been better without the Stonelord levels, which means a lot in this competition.
Elegance: 3.5. The theming is nice, and I can see where a lot of stuff would fit, but I could use a bit more exposition on how you would use Stonelord. The random Fighter dip doesn't help.
Use of Stonelord: 2. I'm sorry, but you just don't provide any explanation for those levels. The class, which you only finished half of, seems like it was tacked on, especially with all of the emphasis that you put on your Soulmelds.

Final Composite Score: 3.25. I like the way you went, and a little more explanation would've gone a long way.

Note: Just a couple of minor nitpicks, but: Why 28PB instead of 32? How do you bind 7 soulmelds with 16 CON? How do you even hit level 20 when you're spending XP on crafting? All of these put together put you over the edge to lose another half-point in Elegance.


Grimshank, the Grim Gnome Shanker
Grimshank, the Grim Gnome Shanker, the one that every goblin knows. And if you ever saw him, he'd gut you from your head to toes... OK, I'm done.

Originality: 4. A goblin? Really? I have to say, that knocked me off balance. A lot of variety in this competition. Stonedeath Assassin actually complements Stonelord quite nicely, and this guy is nice to keep around if you're anywhere near a cave.
Power: 2.5. You said it yourself, this is where the build starts to lack. Maybe it's time to start piling bonuses on to that dagger? It doesn't look like you have any other equipment to make up for it. It's also a shame that you couldn't squeeze some sort of Dex -> Damage on there, as it would've helped immensely.
Elegance: 4.5. You take the Ranger levels for the free TWF, and then you jump right into the PrCs. You finish all three, moving straight from one into another, and the flavor just screams "Let's hope you meet this guy on the surface."
Use of Stonelord: 4. You grab all of the right abilities for your build, you use all ten levels, and it fits thematically. Earthgrip, Earth Shadows, and Earth Power all seem particularly important. However, I don't know why you felt the need to take all 10, since you never mention Earthquake and the elemental seems redundant with Earth Shadows. The late entry is excusable, but it doesn't help by any means.

Final Composite Score: 3.75. Overall a very inspired build that really caught me off guard. I wholeheartedly approve.


Bruingar Threehorns
Originality: 3. He's a Spiked Chain Tripper. I think we're all familiar with those. I'm actually surprised that it took until now to find someone with Deepstone Sentinel.
Power: 4. He gets a lot of help from that equipment, and you use the SLAs of the Stonelord to good effect. Combined with your feat choice and a couple of good Stone Dragon maneuvers, and you end up with a frightening melee combatant.
Elegance: 2. I'm sorry that I have to score that low, but it just looks... messy. It took me a bit to figure out what you were doing with that Fighter variant, which really says something. When you can't even figure out his levels, how can you look at anything else? The class choices start jumping around at level 13, and you don't really get stable progression back after that. Also, why you used 18 point-buy is beyond me.
Use of Stonelord: 4. I like the way you exploit the SLAs for use with the Spiked Chain. Every single one has an obvious place in the build. Couple that with some thematic classes and a very early entry, and you end up with a good use of a bad class.

Final Composite Score: 3.25. Overall, a very good build.


Old Lob Many-eyes
Originality: 5. My first thought was "WTF is a were-spider?" and it only got better from there. Dungeoncrasher variant Fighter is considered powerful, and you seem to crank that up to 11 with SLAs. Very unexpected, and very original.
Power: 4. He stays out of sight and nearly undetectable until he pops out and murders you. Honestly one of the scariest things I can even begin to imagine underground.
Elegance: 4. Use of LA is perfectly allowable, but it doesn't quite sit right with me. Everything blends well, and Lob is overall a very smooth build.
Use of Stonelord: 5. At first I thought this class was horrible. Now I think it's horrible with a very good niche. You mercilessly optimized one of the most harmless looking abilities into a horrifying tank of death. Throw on some Tremorsense and the SLAs, and you end up with a bull rushing machine. Simply amazing.

Final Composite Score: 4.5. I am in awe of this submission. I can't even put it into words. It is just... beautiful. *sheds single tear*


Durin-Thur, Stonehammer Lord of the Deepstone
Originality: 3. Honestly, this is right in line with exactly what I expected coming in here. A ToB base class followed up with Deepstone Sentinel just seems like the obvious pick.
Power: 3.5. You have maneuvers. That's kinda hard to screw up in the first place.
Elegance: 3. You jump around the classes a lot, and the last level of Crusader seems forced. You obviously don't value Smite, so why not take another level in something else? Other than that, everything is thematically appropriate.
Use of Stonelord: 3.5. I can think of a few ways to use the powers you chose, but your focus seems to be placed more on your maneuvers. Provide some exposition on combos next time, 'k?

Final Composite Score: 3.25 It's up to snuff, but nothing too spectacular.


Torar Stoneshield
Originality: 3. This marks the third Deepstone Sentinel build, and, given how obvious it is, should almost be expected. Still, you have some unexpected elements in there.
Power: 4. Impressive use of Earthquake and the elemental, although everything else was rather predictable. Maneuvers are hard to not benefit from.
Elegance: 2. The Fighter dip seems almost random, especially given that it's for Sneak Attack, which you make no mention of. The first few levels, rather than a proper appetizer, is more of a sporadic sampler plate. The last 14 levels are nice and smooth, however.
Use of Stonelord: 4. 9 levels worth gets you some nice abilities that blend well with Deepstone Sentinel, and you make full use of them. You also make sure to enter at an appropriate point. Good job.

Final Composite Score: 3.25. Right up there with everyone else. I don't really seem to have much variety to my scores...


Munchy, Gold Dwarf of Stone
Originality: 4. I thought Earth Dreamer might show up if someone wanted to use a caster, but I didn't think anyone would actually do it. Even at that, Shugenja is among the last of the casters I would actually expect anyone to pick.
Power: 3.5. By virtue of being a caster, you are already pretty powerful, but the lost progression means you lose out on a lot. You have a minor gish thing going, and it seems like it works. I just hope you milk BFC for all it's worth while hidden underground.
Elegance: 3. This may seem bad, but the flaws are really what killed you here. With two of them, the highest you can score here is a 4. Apart from that, you seem to suffer from a slight case of MAD.
Use of Stonelord: 3.5. Spell-like Ability abuse at its finest. 9 levels of it on a caster was fairly unexpected.

Final Composite Score: 3.5. Very solid. I like it.


Takar Varson
Originality: 4. This is the second build to use Ranger, but for a completely different purpose. I didn't think anyone would use Wild Shape, especially with the apparent Con-heavy trend.
Power: 4. You have Wild Shape. It's hard to go wrong once you have that.
Elegance: 3. Use of two flaws tanks your score in here. You also level Stonelord in short, inconsistent bursts. Deepwarden is probably a good choice with your high Con, but you may not even want to stay out of Wild Shape that long.
Use of Stonelord: 3.5 You take all 10 levels. Eventually. You also put a lot more focus on your Wild Shaping, and almost none on your respectable repertoire of Stone Powers. I would have liked to see more ideas, but at the very least you use Stonelord to do what your Wild Shapes cannot.

Final Composite Score: 3.625. Frankly, I'm impressed. You're very lucky to have slipped in past the deadline, or we would have lost such a great build.


Final comments: I am personally surprised to see such a diverse showing of class choices for Stonelord. My personal favorite is Lob, with Grimshank in second followed closely by Takar. Remember, even submitting a build at all in this competition is an accomplishment. You should all feel good about your placement. Even last place is better than having nothing to show. Good luck!

[Grynning]

Opening thoughts: First of all, I had most of these done last night, but I had to go to work before I could get them posted. I have intentionally not read the other judges' comments yet so as not to unduly influence my scores.

Second, let me commend all contestants for doing a pretty good job with a pretty terrible PrC. This was a great effort all around and enjoyed reading all the entries.

Finally, I was somewhat lenient on the "power" category for this contest, since stonelord is a pretty hefty nerf to a lot of builds. Well, here come the scores:

Belrid

Originality: 3.5 - Not entirely unpredictable, but gets a bump for being the only Incarnum using entry, and also the only one to wear the Dwarves traditional crafting hat.

Power: 3.5 - I've never bought MoI and I probably never will since 3.x is dead around here, so I have to assume you made the right picks on those abilities. Overall, seems like a pretty strong melee build, but not particularly versatile.

Elegance: 4 - pretty seamless transition between the various classes, no rules chicanery. A little light on flavor but what was there was good.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 2 - I know the PrC isn't that good, but you could have worked it in a little more. The Stonelord levels are just tossed in here because you had to; the build could've completely gone without them.

Overall: 13, Average: 3.25

Grimshank

Originality: 5 - Damn. A sneaky goblin Stonelord. That threw me for a loop, and it's really clever. Good job.

Power: 3 - He's good at hiding and skulking, and has a lot of tricks, but for an assassin, he's not so good at actually making things die. However, I won't be too harsh since we are working with a low-tier PrC and you worked hard to make the best of it.

Elegance: 4.5 - This seems like it would be hard to pull off, but you made it look pretty easy. Granted, gnome-hating dwarves aren't what you'd usually expect in a backstory, but hey, it's a cool bit of setting detail. The mechanics make perfect sense and at the end we have a very cool character.

Use of the Secret Ingredient: 3.5 - All 10 levels in there, and a good idea in using Stonelord's SLA's to help with your positioning for SA. The only reason this wasn't higher is that nothing really jumped out at me with the Stonelord levels.

Overall: 16, Average: 4

Bruingar

Originality: 2.5 - You said it yourself. Spiked Chain Tripper. Not much else to it.

Power: 3
See above. Nothing wrong with this build as a melee frontliner, but still a low tier 4 until it's level 17, which is a bit late.

Elegance: 2.5 - I've never deducted points for formatting before, but this time I had to. This was really hard to read. Story seemed good overall, I just got headaches trying to get through it with the weird spacing and the grammatical errors.
Also, what's with sticking the ToB stuff at the very end of the build? I would've worked them in earlier so they'd have been more relevant.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 3
Relies on Stonelord pretty heavily for most of the build, and uses all the levels, but doesn't make the most of it like some of the other builds.

Overall: 11, Average: 2.75


Old Lob

Originality: 5 - Simply awesome idea. I can picture this creepy half-dwarf/half-spider in my head, and I love it.

Power: 4 - Dungeoncrasher is great for underground warriors and I'm surprised we didn't see more of it. Good synergy with spideriness and Stonelord movement enhancing abilities.

Elegance: 4 - You did a good job making being a were-spider part of the character and not just a cheesy power-template. The backstory setup was really good, I love that he's both a local horror story and a defender of his community.
Mechanically, this has the simplest class combo with one of the best results. Lost points for 1 thing - FR regional feat, which is of dubious legality at some tables (though this one's certainly not OP, some DM's would still say no).

Use of Secret Ingredient: 4 - Can't argue here. Using the abilities to make things to SMASH PEOPLE INTO is awesome. Great job.

Overall: 17, Average: 4.25

Durin-Thur

Originality: 3 - This is a pretty predictable class combo, but the excellent story behind it brought it up.

Power: 4.5 - Best optimization in this bunch. ToB, Deepwarden, good options and damage output all around.

Elegance: 5 - GREAT story, with every class level worked in beautifully. No weird tricks or anything I could find that was out of place (the variant on the "ritual" was far more creative than it was questionable, IMO). This character would be welcomed at my table and by any group who understands the coolness of ToB.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 4.5 - Makes the best use of the synergy between the multiple Dwarfy classes, and makes Stonelord actually look pretty damn good.

Overall: 17, Average: 4.25

Torar

Originality: 3.5 - Similar to some of the other builds, but with a few variations on the theme, like Warlock and Barbarian.

Power: 4 - Can definitely hold his own, and won't slow a party down at all.

Elegance: 2.5 - A bit too dip-heavy, and Deepstone Sentinel comes a bit late, IMO. This character would only really be good in a higher-level game. The lack of any story doesn't help either.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 4 - Does a great job of bringing together Stonelord's powers with good melee classes, though again, a lot of the goodness comes late in the build.

Overall: 14, Average: 3.5

Munchy

Originality: 4 - Didn't expect to see a Shugenja, that's for sure. I'd never even looked at Earth Dreamer before. Nice surprise.

Power: 2.5 - Unfortunately, the reason I didn't expect casters is that Stonelord makes for a very weak gish. This guy wouldn't be terrible in a low to mid-optimization party, but trying to melee with this dude seems like a bad plan.

Elegance: 3.5 - Some story/fluff would have really helped here.
Pretty straightforward build mechanically, and would be pretty easy to drop into most campaigns. 1/2 point deducted for use of flaws and some early entry shenanigans.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 3 - This was hard to call - I didn't have detailed tactics to see how you were synergizing the SLAs with your Shugenja casting. Does include 9 levels and needs the BAB for the gish concept, so that's what I based this on.

Overall: 13, Average: 3.25

Takar

Originality: 3 - Ranger/Deepwarden isn't where most people went in this contest, but I fully expected it.

Power: 3.5 - He turns into animals and beats people up. Uses the Stonelord SLA's for backup. Not bad.

Elegance: 4 - A quick but fun little backstory that works the class levels in nicely, and a very straightforward build.

Use of Secret Ingredient: 3.5 - Finishes the PrC and makes pretty good use of it, though a lot of the focus is still on the other classes in the build.

Overall: 14, Average: 3.5

[Pechvarry]

I have a feeling Munchy is actually one of the more potent builds in actual play by virtue of having spells, but unfortunately I feel compelled to point out that I have no idea how he has Arcane Disciple. Shugenjas are divine casters.

[arguskos]

I have a feeling Munchy is actually one of the more potent builds in actual play by virtue of having spells, but unfortunately I feel compelled to point out that I have no idea how he has Arcane Disciple. Shugenjas are divine casters.

The probability is that the maker of Munchy didn't read the entire feat, and just read the short description in the table, where is doesn't mention that you need to cast arcane spells.

[Private-Prinny]

I find it odd that in the competition with the single worst secret ingredient so far, we get more entries than any other.

[Akal Saris]

Well, I look at it this way:
Iron chef 1: Not too many people come through at the end, and there was a wide variety in levels of preparation. Kind of a trial run almost.
Iron chef 2: Psionics might have scared some people off.
Iron chef 3: Cancer Mage is kind of gross and in a slightly obscure book, but we still got several entries
Iron chef 4: Back to a common supplement, and it's pretty fun to pile on tons of dwarf themed stuff and see what comes out, plus the challenges have been around for a while so people know what they're getting in to. And with such a terrible ingredient, maybe people felt like there was less pressure to build something insanely powerful, since everyone's builds were going to suck anyhow.

That's my guess, anyhow. I was really pleasantly surprised to see so many people this time around though. Sorry you judges had all the extra work

[the humanity]

it's too much work judging and trying to come up with specific builds. I'm content with watching I think, unless I see something popping in my head for the next build.

maybe for the next one, instead of the standard prestige class, 3 feats have to be taken. I could think that could be interesting. (ex. Vatic Gaze, Weapon Finesse, and Mage Slayer). just a thought, it need not be considered for this competition to be cool.

that Grimshank guy really impressed me.

[arguskos]

the humanity, the Iron Chef is not new to this forum. It originated on... BrilliantGameologists, I believe? They've always been about prestige classes, and honestly, I'd prefer to see them stay that way.

[Private-Prinny]

I actually have a couple of ideas for underused PrCs that could use some love.

[Heliomance]

PM me with your ideas, you never know, some might get in. I've got a few plans for classes I'm going to run, but if someone points out a class that I hadn't noticed that needs more love, I might just run it.

Note: I'm not planning to put up any PrC with less than 10 levels. You need that for it to be able to be the focus of a build, really. Which is a shame, in some ways - I'd kinda like to see a contest for Fortune's Friend, among others.

[Private-Prinny]

Note: I'm not planning to put up any PrC with less than 10 levels. You need that for it to be able to be the focus of a build, really. Which is a shame, in some ways - I'd kinda like to see a contest for Fortune's Friend, among others.

Incidentally, that was near the top of my list.

[Ozymandias9]

As an aside, could the judges not abandon the thread after judging is over? I have an earlier character draft I abandoned during cooking I'd like feedback on. I abandoned it when I realized that: 1) the template I wanted to use was errataed from LA3 to LA5 with the 3e => 3.5 update (actually, I was just reading the wrong entry in the update book, but I just realized that), 2) rebuilding rules in PHBII, which I needed, might not be kosher for the competition.

[Eldonauran]

Bloody hell. I got too busy and forgot to finish out my build.

Ah well, it was going to be:

Dream Dwarf
Totemist 4 (didn't someone else use this too?)
Barbarian 3 (using UA variant chaining to get Monk stuff and maybe animal wildshape, + pounce, of course)
Fist of the Forest 3
Deep Warden 2
Stonelord 10

I was going to take advantage of Whirling Frenzy variant, FotF Frenzy, Girallion Arms, unarmed strikes, Cobalt Rage and Charge + Stone Power to unleash a whilrwind of death. Surprise!

Was going to go for the feral (wild) dwarf that chooses to live on the outskirts of dwarven cities (typically underground, natural caves, etc) and scout for interlopers and other general unwanted enemies.

Ah well, too late. Loved the other builds though.

Spoiler

Show

I was torn between taking Barbarian and getting things through UA variant chaining, so I could get spirit lion totem pounce, or sticking with Druid and likewise chaining to get the abilities, relying on totemist to get me pounce via soulmeld. In the end, I realised I would either need to take 5 levels of Druid and lose out on 3 levels on stonelord to pull that off. Stuck with barbarian and saved a feat to unlock a chakra at the cost of spells.

[Akal Saris]

Heh...that sounds like an awesome build Eldonaun, though one of the other contestants also went totemist. And if I were you, I'd have serious questions about why you were taking Stonelord over Totem rager =P

Heliomance, I'll PM you with some suggestions for prestige classes that I wish got more attention.

[Ingus]

Talking only for me, I didn't know there was this competition. I've spotted it surfing around the web seeking tips for cancer mage.

[Grynning]

I was going to suggest maybe doing a 180 and using a really, really good PrC for one challenge as a special thing. Just like on the real Iron Chef, sometimes you get weird stuff, but sometimes you get beef or tuna.

[Cieyrin]

Granted, gnome-hating dwarves aren't what you'd usually expect in a backstory, but hey, it's a cool bit of setting detail.

Gnome-hating Dwarves could easily be Duergar, as they don't exactly get on with the Svirfneblin, the local deep variations of said races.

Regardless, I see no fault with your judging, I just thought I'd point that out.

Also, I'd venture that if I'd had the time and inspiration, I'd have put forth some sort of Urdunnir Swordsage/Stonelord as a Mole-type build, using their Earth Glide type abilities to pop in and out with impunity, though I'd need to see about some detection abilities, something like Old Lob, I suspect.

[Amphetryon]

How many more judges have yet to report?

[FishAreWet]

Was going to build a Earth Dwarf Half Earth Elemental 3/Ranger 5/Stonelord 7/ Slime Lord 5 but ran out of time. He was also going to be a dwarf slayer. And was going to use sacrifices from BoVD.

[arguskos]

Was going to build a Earth Dwarf Half Earth Elemental 3/Ranger 5/Stonelord 7/ Slime Lord 5 but ran out of time. He was also going to be a dwarf slayer. And was going to use sacrifices from BoVD.

waitwut

YOU DIDN'T DEVOTE MORE LIFE TO THAT?! Dude!! If well produced, that would almost certainly have swept the competition in my eyes. I am genuinely saddened that I will not get to see that full fleshed out.

[FishAreWet]

Finals week. I thought I had a Word Document saved of it but I can't seem to find it anywhere.

[arguskos]

Finals week. I thought I had a Word Document saved of it but I can't seem to find it anywhere.

Whaps with a rolled up newspaper Bad Fish, bad! Finals are not as important as the Iron Chef!

Disclaimer: This is not actually true, ignore finals at your own peril, etcetcetcyadayadayada.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

As long as we're telling everyone what we thought about making I strongly considered a duergar psywarrior but I couldn't get over the wouldn't psiwarrior 20 or psiwarior with a earthy fullcaster PrC adapted to psionics represent this character a million times better factor.

Tht's a real pet peave of mine when I look over some entries. I be at least 90% as good as more levels of my main base class or best other PrC.

[Ozymandias9]

waitwut

YOU DIDN'T DEVOTE MORE LIFE TO THAT?! Dude!! If well produced, that would almost certainly have swept the competition in my eyes. I am genuinely saddened that I will not get to see that full fleshed out.

Half earth elemental was actually the template I abandoned because I misread the LA in the update Errata (I was actually looking at the changes for an earth elemental creature).

As a side note, I would encourage anyone actually interested in taking Stonelord to look at the template instead. Excepting the couple levels of early access to Earthquake, its at least as powerful and has a far lower opportunity cost.

As long as we're telling everyone what we thought about making I strongly considered a duergar psywarrior but I couldn't get over the wouldn't psiwarrior 20 or psiwarior with a earthy fullcaster PrC adapted to psionics represent this character a million times better factor.

Tht's a real pet peave of mine when I look over some entries. I be at least 90% as good as more levels of my main base class or best other PrC.

I agree, but that's going to be true for anything with more than about 4 levels of Stonelord, and that's being generous. It's not, in fact, clear to me that at equal levels of optimization, Stonelord 10 isn't worse than fighter 10.

(That said, Stonelord is an easy fix. You can simply increase the uses/day of the SLAs or move most of them to per encounter.)

[arguskos]

As a side note, I would encourage anyone actually interested in taking Stonelord to look at the template instead. Excepting the couple levels of early access to Earthquake, its at least as powerful and has a far lower opportunity cost.

Templates are harder to get past DMs though, making them a slight elegance hit in most cases, save when it's just so beautiful you can't help but love it (Old Lob).

I agree, but that's going to be true for anything with more than about 4 levels of Stonelord, and that's being generous. It's not, in fact, clear to me that at equal levels of optimization, Stonelord 10 isn't worse than fighter 10.

(That said, Stonelord is an easy fix. You can simply increase the uses/day of the SLAs or move most of them to per encounter.)

You know, I actually dispute that. Stonelord is better than Fighter, since you get stuff the Fighter can't replicate, like Earthquake and elemental summoning. Now, in most other ways, Fighter at worst gives Stonelord a run for it's money, and at best beats the pants off it. This is saaaaaaaaad.

[Ozymandias9]

Templates are harder to get past DMs though, making them a slight elegance hit in most cases, save when it's just so beautiful you can't help but love it (Old Lob).


You know, I actually dispute that. Stonelord is better than Fighter, since you get stuff the Fighter can't replicate, like Earthquake and elemental summoning. Now, in most other ways, Fighter at worst gives Stonelord a run for it's money, and at best beats the pants off it. This is saaaaaaaaad.

And really, just those two. Every other ability is easily replicated through magic items. So you're trading 4-5 fighter feats for 2 1/day SLAs.

[arguskos]

And really, just those two. Every other ability is easily replicated through magic items. So you're trading 4-5 fighter feats for 2 1/day SLAs.

Yeah, well, uh... . Take that.

Ok, I got nothin'. I still like Stonelord MORE, but yeah, logistically, it's probably an even fight at best.