GitP Conworlding/Worldbuilding Project - Language Thread

[Maximum Zersk]

I know nothing about particle languages, so, how are verb times, persons, numbers, genders, etc. defined? Do they use particles to specify that, or some letter(s) in the end/beginning of the word?

I don't know about other languages, but if I remember correctly, Japanese doesn't have numbers. Not sure about the other things, though.

[unosarta]

I don't know about other languages, but if I remember correctly, Japanese doesn't have numbers. Not sure about the other things, though.

Finally, I get to talk about Japanese on this forum.

Also, this is really awesome, and I don't have that much experience in linguistics in general, but if you guys are talking about particles, I can kind of sort of help. Indeed, it is true, Japanese does not have a number particle.

Really, the first thing to be done should be a set number of particles. I would go higher than Japanese even (which has something close to 14, if you count unused particles), if Gnomish is going for a very "scientific" feel for it (I.E. less misunderstanding via syntax and the lexicon). Actually, Japanese might be a bad thing to base this on, at least for matters of respect. Just for the syntax would be fine, but the respect and honor that comes from Japanese just might be wonky. It is really hard to communicate in a language that has a large amount of variation amongst the way it communicates respect, such as in Japanese, where I could say something like: この水を飲みませんか？(Would you like to drink this water), as opposed to この水飲めよ！(drink the water!).　この水を召しあがりませんか？(Would you like to drink this most honorable water [not a direct translation, but as close as I can get it at]) At the most formal.

Generally, it makes it much harder to learn (And therefore teach, which would be important for Gnomes trying to teach it to non-Gnomes, if they are trying to accumulate knowledge [of course, I digress, I haven't really read much of the actual Conworld thread]), and also tends to separate people across boundaries of respect, which, given the circumstances, does not seem very correct for the culture of the gnomes (as in actual fields of science, where all people are supposed to be considered equal). Having one person put above another tends to lead to conflict, which does not, more science make.

Still, this is great. I can't wait to see what you guys do! Sharlaq itself is a really fun language, if a little hard to speak.

Also, excuse the keigo I used, if anyone knows more Japanese than I do, I am not altogether the most proficient with Keigo.

[Tulio d Bard]

Finally, I get to talk about Japanese on this forum.

Also, this is really awesome, and I don't have that much experience in linguistics in general, but if you guys are talking about particles, I can kind of sort of help. Indeed, it is true, Japanese does not have a number particle.

Welcome, then! We're not language specialists either (I guess), but we use the languages we know (and wikipedia ) to work with this.

Really, the first thing to be done should be a set number of particles. I would go higher than Japanese even (which has something close to 14, if you count unused particles), if Gnomish is going for a very "scientific" feel for it (I.E. less misunderstanding via syntax and the lexicon). Actually, Japanese might be a bad thing to base this on, at least for matters of respect. Just for the syntax would be fine, but the respect and honor that comes from Japanese just might be wonky. It is really hard to communicate in a language that has a large amount of variation amongst the way it communicates respect, such as in Japanese, where I could say something like: この水を飲みませんか？(Would you like to drink this water), as opposed to この水飲めよ！(drink the water!).　この水を召しあがりませんか？(Would you like to drink this most honorable water [not a direct translation, but as close as I can get it at]) At the most formal.

I believe we're using the syntax of it. As you said, respect isn't a main trait of our Gnomes. But it's the only reference we have (guessing again). Yeah, "scientific" feel.

Generally, it makes it much harder to learn (And therefore teach, which would be important for Gnomes trying to teach it to non-Gnomes, if they are trying to accumulate knowledge [of course, I digress, I haven't really read much of the actual Conworld thread]), and also tends to separate people across boundaries of respect, which, given the circumstances, does not seem very correct for the culture of the gnomes (as in actual fields of science, where all people are supposed to be considered equal). Having one person put above another tends to lead to conflict, which does not, more science make.

You got it right, except that Gnomes are ruled by an Emperor. We mmay need to give it some specific treatment particles, but I'm not sure.

Still, this is great. I can't wait to see what you guys do! Sharlaq itself is a really fun language, if a little hard to speak.

[unosarta]

Welcome, then! We're not language specialists either (I guess), but we use the languages we know (and wikipedia ) to work with this.

Still, this is great. All I really know besides english is Japanese and a little chinese, but I would love to try to help.

I believe we're using the syntax of it. As you said, respect isn't a main trait of our Gnomes. But it's the only reference we have (guessing again). Yeah, "scientific" feel.

All of the syntax, or just the particles? Not having done very much study on neurolinguistics, I think it still might be interesting to consider exactly the implications of syntax on culture and social thinking. Most languages are created as a way to arrange, process and subsequently propose and speak, thoughts, so most often, it seems that syntax has a great impact on the culture of the peoples that speak it. For instance, from my meager and altogether too small experience with language (I am working on fixing that ), most SVO languages focus on the self, rather than others (as indicated, with the subject coming first in the syntax), and then the actions that one is doing, and then the consequences and the things that one is affecting by doing the action (which has been demonstrated by many an english speaker on multiple occasions, but again, these are just sort of educated guesses, neurolinguistics is not a very well studied field, as opposed to many other linguistics fields).

SOV seems to categorize more with, thinking of the self, and then of the ones upon the actions you are doing affect, and then upon the actions themselves, which leads to slower action, more thought on the matter, and more study into what you are doing (as what happens often time in Japanese), as well as a higher motivation to think about others first (especially in Japanese). Thusly, if these are true (and for all I know, they aren't), one could theorize that the opposites would be true; OSV would have an even higher importance placed upon others, and a slightly less significant importance placed upon the self, and of the actions one is taking (which might lead to a people who are very cautious, and very aware of others). Japanese syntax would apply just fine to the Gnomes, as far as I can tell, but with these conjectures, the Sharlaq culture might be invariably different. If the Sharlaq are VSO, then they might have a very alien and strange outlook on life when compared to the Gnomes, linguistically and otherwise. Think about it this way; the Sharlaq would be placing action and self above others. They would be more individualized, and more self respecting. This does seem to clash with the image I had seen myself for the Sharlaq. But, of course, I could be wrong (and quite likely am), and even if these conjectures did prove to be true (which would certainly be hard to prove), then the Sharlaq still might be some sort of strange outlier. But either way, the two languages having so huge a difference would be a big mitigation in diplomacy and trade, and they would have to have some other way that their language has the same roots, probably. Of course, they could have the same alphabet, or character system if they are going pictorial (which I would not recommend for ease of use and for the fact that many would likely go insane from all of the work needed to make all of the characters necessary in order to make it a functional system, especially for the Gnomes. For a bit of perspective, just to be able to function, in Japan, which is partial phonetic partial pictorial, one must know at least 2000 characters. In china, that is 15,000-20,000. Yeah...).

WOAH, WALL OF TEXT!

You got it right, except that Gnomes are ruled by an Emperor. We mmay need to give it some specific treatment particles, but I'm not sure.

Hm, that could be interesting. An emperor, as in, with nobility, or not? If yes, then a different particle for nobility wouldn't be that hard, and something like o- in Japanese, as a suffix, applied to something to make it of the emperor, could be added to the particle. Actually, that might be interesting anyway, to have a suffix that is possessive to the emperor only.

It is really cool, even just linguistically. I love the idea and implementation of the Sharlaq.

[Maximum Zersk]

All of the syntax, or just the particles? Not having done very much study on neurolinguistics, I think it still might be interesting to consider exactly the implications of syntax on culture and social thinking. Most languages are created as a way to arrange, process and subsequently propose and speak, thoughts, so most often, it seems that syntax has a great impact on the culture of the peoples that speak it. For instance, from my meager and altogether too small experience with language (I am working on fixing that ), most SVO languages focus on the self, rather than others (as indicated, with the subject coming first in the syntax), and then the actions that one is doing, and then the consequences and the things that one is affecting by doing the action (which has been demonstrated by many an english speaker on multiple occasions, but again, these are just sort of educated guesses, neurolinguistics is not a very well studied field, as opposed to many other linguistics fields).

SOV seems to categorize more with, thinking of the self, and then of the ones upon the actions you are doing affect, and then upon the actions themselves, which leads to slower action, more thought on the matter, and more study into what you are doing (as what happens often time in Japanese), as well as a higher motivation to think about others first (especially in Japanese). Thusly, if these are true (and for all I know, they aren't), one could theorize that the opposites would be true; OSV would have an even higher importance placed upon others, and a slightly less significant importance placed upon the self, and of the actions one is taking (which might lead to a people who are very cautious, and very aware of others). Japanese syntax would apply just fine to the Gnomes, as far as I can tell, but with these conjectures, the Sharlaq culture might be invariably different. If the Sharlaq are VSO, then they might have a very alien and strange outlook on life when compared to the Gnomes, linguistically and otherwise. Think about it this way; the Sharlaq would be placing action and self above others. They would be more individualized, and more self respecting. This does seem to clash with the image I had seen myself for the Sharlaq. But, of course, I could be wrong (and quite likely am), and even if these conjectures did prove to be true (which would certainly be hard to prove), then the Sharlaq still might be some sort of strange outlier. But either way, the two languages having so huge a difference would be a big mitigation in diplomacy and trade, and they would have to have some other way that their language has the same roots, probably. Of course, they could have the same alphabet, or character system if they are going pictorial (which I would not recommend for ease of use and for the fact that many would likely go insane from all of the work needed to make all of the characters necessary in order to make it a functional system, especially for the Gnomes. For a bit of perspective, just to be able to function, in Japan, which is partial phonetic partial pictorial, one must know at least 2000 characters. In china, that is 15,000-20,000. Yeah...).

The thing is, there are languages that are VSO. The people who are native speakers aren't very alien, so I don't think it's a problem.

An Idealogical, and Pictorial font wouldn't be impossible. The thing is that Kanji is made up of a bunch of radicals and compound characters that make new words. Oh, it'd be hard, I'm not denying that. But it wouldn't be too hard.

Also, I'm already insane, so I don't have to worry about that.

[unosarta]

The thing is, there are languages that are VSO. The people who are native speakers aren't very alien, so I don't think it's a problem.

Hm, I suppose you are right. Although, with the way pronunciation works with Sharlaq, it might seem foreign to the Gnomes anyway. Also, are you guys planning on doing "Human"? If so, one way to increasingly differentiate it from Gnomish (which would appear to be increasingly longer and longer, which is saying something, when compared to Sharlaq, which is already pretty long, sentence wise), may be to have it be really, really short. So, the Humans tend to mess things up, miscommunicate, and start wars, fights and escalating conflicts. They might even solve this by magic (if their magic is sufficiently advanced, I really should go read the actual world thread) via telepathy, or some other similar ability, allowing the more powerful mages to solve disputes and act like judges, increasing the respect the Humans have for them even further. It could be a potentially interesting idea.

An Idealogical, and Pictorial font wouldn't be impossible. The thing is that Kanji is made up of a bunch of radicals and compound characters that make new words. Oh, it'd be hard, I'm not denying that. But it wouldn't be too hard.

It might. And, honestly, kanji itself is hard to learn. If the Gnomes are really going to be attempting to reach out to other cultures, they would want to have not only a pictorial system (which is a pain in the ass to learn). Hm... Maybe they have both? Like a science only Pictorial script, and a daily life phonetic alphabet? That would be very interesting. Also, it would allow them to still have a sort of similar common root with Sharlaq; the same alphabet system. The Pictorial alphabet would be only used by scientists or those who are highly educated, and might have been created by the scientists specifically for their work (pictorial systems tend to have far fewer ambiguities, when every word has a specific meaning. Unless it is Japanese, where often as not, a character will have multiple meanings. ).

Also, I'm already insane, so I don't have to worry about that.

I assumed so, for doing so huge a project like this.

[Maximum Zersk]

Hm, I suppose you are right. Although, with the way pronunciation works with Sharlaq, it might seem foreign to the Gnomes anyway. Also, are you guys planning on doing "Human"? If so, one way to increasingly differentiate it from Gnomish (which would appear to be increasingly longer and longer, which is saying something, when compared to Sharlaq, which is already pretty long, sentence wise), may be to have it be really, really short. So, the Humans tend to mess things up, miscommunicate, and start wars, fights and escalating conflicts. They might even solve this by magic (if their magic is sufficiently advanced, I really should go read the actual world thread) via telepathy, or some other similar ability, allowing the more powerful mages to solve disputes and act like judges, increasing the respect the Humans have for them even further. It could be a potentially interesting idea.

Well, my guess is that there are going to be three different language trees, one for each of the human ethnicities. It might be neat as short, but I'd see about how we'd do that. I guess that would be an isolated language, one that relies more on word order and grammar than morphology and infixes.

It might. And, honestly, kanji itself is hard to learn. If the Gnomes are really going to be attempting to reach out to other cultures, they would want to have not only a pictorial system (which is a pain in the ass to learn). Hm... Maybe they have both? Like a science only Pictorial script, and a daily life phonetic alphabet? That would be very interesting. Also, it would allow them to still have a sort of similar common root with Sharlaq; the same alphabet system. The Pictorial alphabet would be only used by scientists or those who are highly educated, and might have been created by the scientists specifically for their work (pictorial systems tend to have far fewer ambiguities, when every word has a specific meaning. Unless it is Japanese, where often as not, a character will have multiple meanings. ).

Heh, I know. I learned a bit of japanese, and man, that's a lot of characters.

Eh, who knows. Writing scripts come later on, when we've finished individual languages.

I assumed so, for doing so huge a project like this.

Heh, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[unosarta]

Well, my guess is that there are going to be three different language trees, one for each of the human ethnicities. It might be neat as short, but I'd see about how we'd do that. I guess that would be an isolated language, one that relies more on word order and grammar than morphology and infixes.

OK, I can see that. Also, the Wiki really needs to get a better format. Something linking all of the pages under subcategories. Otherwise, it is really hard to navigate. Speaking of a language that relies more on word order and grammar, have you guys thought about lojban? It is at the very least, an interesting concept not unique (I am fairly confident that some form of syntax tense exists in German). That would be another interesting thing to combine and tinker with.

Heh, I know. I learned a bit of japanese, and man, that's a lot of characters.

You have no id-- well, you probably have some idea. It is actually worse than Chinese, because in Chinese, at the very least, you do not have words that have multiple meanings, with one character. It can become a huge pain in the butt. Of course, Chinese also has tones, which are a pain simply because for non-native speakers they are more of a hassle than anything else (especially considering Chinese grammar, which is really simple, with only 2 particles, and the same syntax as English! A nice break from Japanese, at the very least).

Eh, who knows. Writing scripts come later on, when we've finished individual languages.

That is probably the best way to go about it. I was just thinking of the possibly systems that might apply to each, even if it is before the final decision.

Heh, you ain't seen nothing yet.

I await patiently.

[Maximum Zersk]

OK, I can see that. Also, the Wiki really needs to get a better format. Something linking all of the pages under subcategories. Otherwise, it is really hard to navigate. Speaking of a language that relies more on word order and grammar, have you guys thought about lojban? It is at the very least, an interesting concept not unique (I am fairly confident that some form of syntax tense exists in German). That would be another interesting thing to combine and tinker with.

Ah, yeah. For now, all of the pages are in the Category browse, which is at the bottom of the page.

I have heard of Lojban, though not much.

You have no id-- well, you probably have some idea. It is actually worse than Chinese, because in Chinese, at the very least, you do not have words that have multiple meanings, with one character. It can become a huge pain in the butt. Of course, Chinese also has tones, which are a pain simply because for non-native speakers they are more of a hassle than anything else (especially considering Chinese grammar, which is really simple, with only 2 particles, and the same syntax as English! A nice break from Japanese, at the very least).

Huh, I thought japanese had tones as well. Not matter.

Heh, yeah, I have heard about the simplicity of the grammar.
That is probably the best way to go about it. I was just thinking of the possibly systems that might apply to each, even if it is before the final decision.

I await patiently.

Of course.

[unosarta]

Ah, yeah. For now, all of the pages are in the Category browse, which is at the bottom of the page.

Ah, I see. That would explain my confusion, being only 3 pages long, so far.

I have heard of Lojban, though not much.

It is pretty interesting. Basically (wikipedia will be more comprehensive, I don't know all that much about it either), the tenses are based on the syntax. So, SVO could be past tense, and OVS could be future tense (Just as an example). Also, this reminds me, one idea I was having for Sharlaq might be the removal of the present tense entirely. If you think about it, when someone is talking about something, it is already in the past, and for such a past oriented people, it isn't that much of a stretch.

Huh, I thought japanese had tones as well. Not matter.

HAHA, no. Japanese has entirely no tone, and no intentional inflection, usually. It is almost the opposite of Chinese (a huge amount of conjugation, lots of particles, at least partial phonetic, non-toned, several unpronounceable syllables [Ra, re, ru, ri, ro, as an example], different syntax. The only thing that is really similar is Kanji, and because of simplified chinese, most kanji don't apply either).

Heh, yeah, I have heard about the simplicity of the grammar.
That is probably the best way to go about it. I was just thinking of the possibly systems that might apply to each, even if it is before the final decision.

It is wonderful, when compared to Japanese. Of course, no conjugation can lead to some confusion and miscommunication, but at least it is easy to learn. Although, for me personally, I think Japanese syntax, grammar, pronunciation and, well, everything, is at the very least more intuitive than English, maybe slightly more so than Chinese. But of course, that is my own thought on the matter.

Of course.

Hm. So, I have nothing further to respond to, so I think a table is in order.

{table=head]Language|Syntax|Theme

Sharlaq|VSO|River People (reflections in language)

Gnomish, high|SOV|Scientific, used in academic/court settings

Gnomish, low|???|Used by the common people

Human (branch 1)|???| ???

Human (branch 2)|???|???

Human (branch 3)|???|???

Thoughtspeech?|???|Used by powerful mages to understand the thought processes of others. Possibly a personal based language, depending person to person[/table]

[Maximum Zersk]

It is pretty interesting. Basically (wikipedia will be more comprehensive, I don't know all that much about it either), the tenses are based on the syntax. So, SVO could be past tense, and OVS could be future tense (Just as an example). Also, this reminds me, one idea I was having for Sharlaq might be the removal of the present tense entirely. If you think about it, when someone is talking about something, it is already in the past, and for such a past oriented people, it isn't that much of a stretch.

Hm. Interesting.

I don't know. We could remove the past tense, but remember that this is a proto-language that's currently up, and later languages that evolve from it may not have it. So we'll see.

[QUOTE]
HAHA, no. Japanese has entirely no tone, and no intentional inflection, usually. It is almost the opposite of Chinese (a huge amount of conjugation, lots of particles, at least partial phonetic, non-toned, several unpronounceable syllables [Ra, re, ru, ri, ro, as an example], different syntax. The only thing that is really similar is Kanji, and because of simplified chinese, most kanji don't apply either).
[QUOTE]

Huh. That's amusing, considering that they're in the same language group, I think.

It is wonderful, when compared to Japanese. Of course, no conjugation can lead to some confusion and miscommunication, but at least it is easy to learn. Although, for me personally, I think Japanese syntax, grammar, pronunciation and, well, everything, is at the very least more intuitive than English, maybe slightly more so than Chinese. But of course, that is my own thought on the matter.

You seem to really dislike Japanese.

Hm. So, I have nothing further to respond to, so I think a table is in order.

{table=head]Language|Syntax|Theme

Sharlaq|VSO|River People (reflections in language)

Gnomish, high|SOV|Scientific, used in academic/court settings

Gnomish, low|???|Used by the common people

Human (branch 1)|???| ???

Human (branch 2)|???|???

Human (branch 3)|???|???

Thoughtspeech?|???|Used by powerful mages to understand the thought processes of others. Possibly a personal based language, depending person to person[/table]

That seems good, but there are more language groups you're missing. I'll fill in the blanks.

{table=head]Language|Syntax|Theme

North River Sharlaq|VSO|River People (reflections in language)

South River Sharlaq|???|Southern River Sharlaq Language

SeaSharlaq|???|Sea Sharlaq

Gnomish, high|Varied|Scientific, used in academic/court settings

Gnomish, low|Varied, usually VSO|Used by the common people

Human (branch 1)|???| ???

Human (branch 2)|???|???

Human (branch 3)|???|???

Thoughtspeech?|???|Used by powerful mages to understand the thought processes of others. Possibly a personal based language, depending person to person[/table]

Also, ref defined Gnomish as having no exact word order, but usually as VSO.

[unosarta]

Hm. Interesting.

I don't know. We could remove the past tense, but remember that this is a proto-language that's currently up, and later languages that evolve from it may not have it. So we'll see.

Ah, well, if it is a proto-language, then I suppose.

Huh. That's amusing, considering that they're in the same language group, I think.

Well, Chinese really is its own language group. There really aren't all that many languages like it, and it strangely hasn't affected all that many other languages closer to it geographically. And Japanese really should be in the south east Asian language grouping, since it is more derived from those languages than Chinese. Additionally, when I say unpronounceable, I mean that it isn't pronounceable in Chinese. Japanese "R"s are hard to pronounce, but they are literally not possible in Chinese. Which is why it is hilarious to ask anyone who is recently learning english, and who is Chinese to say "Umbrella". "um" is not a syllable in Chinese, "Br" is not either, "re" is not, and "la" is not, so you end up with something like: Unbleller. Which just sounds really funny when it is actually said by someone with the accent.

You seem to really dislike Japanese.

Actually, I love Japanese. It makes way more sense to me than English, and a little bit more sense than English. Japanese is so far my most favorite language.

That seems good, but there are more language groups you're missing. I'll fill in the blanks.

{table=head]Language|Syntax|Theme

North River Sharlaq|VSO|River People (reflections in language)

South River Sharlaq|???|Southern River Sharlaq Language

SeaSharlaq|???|Sea Sharlaq

Gnomish, high|Varied|Scientific, used in academic/court settings

Gnomish, low|Varied, usually VSO|Used by the common people

Human (branch 1)|???| ???

Human (branch 2)|???|???

Human (branch 3)|???|???

Thoughtspeech?|???|Used by powerful mages to understand the thought processes of others. Possibly a personal based language, depending person to person[/table]

Also, ref defined Gnomish as having no exact word order, but usually as VSO.

Interesting. What are the differences between the different Sharlaq races and language branches?

Also, ref seems to be basing a little bit of the syntax on Lojban, which makes sense seeing as it was originally created so that there was no misunderstandings, or as little as possible with language.

[Maximum Zersk]

Well, Chinese really is its own language group. There really aren't all that many languages like it, and it strangely hasn't affected all that many other languages closer to it geographically. And Japanese really should be in the south east Asian language grouping, since it is more derived from those languages than Chinese. Additionally, when I say unpronounceable, I mean that it isn't pronounceable in Chinese. Japanese "R"s are hard to pronounce, but they are literally not possible in Chinese. Which is why it is hilarious to ask anyone who is recently learning english, and who is Chinese to say "Umbrella". "um" is not a syllable in Chinese, "Br" is not either, "re" is not, and "la" is not, so you end up with something like: Unbleller. Which just sounds really funny when it is actually said by someone with the accent.

Ah. Looking at Wikipedia now says it's actually in the Sinitic language tree, so it isn't even classified as the same language tree.

Well, looking at again, Wikipedia, the Japonic language group, of which Japanese and Ryukyuan languages are in, is either an isolate, or part of the Altaic group, which covers parts of Russia and Central Asia.

And I don't have a problem with phonemes, usually. I generally find it easy pronouncing a lot of them.

Actually, I love Japanese. It makes way more sense to me than English, and a little bit more sense than English. Japanese is so far my most favorite language.

Ah, I see. It's just that the way you were talking about it when you were comparing it with Chinese made me think otherwise.

Interesting. What are the differences between the different Sharlaq races and language branches?

Well, the Sea Sharlaq are closer to the Ancient Egyptians for now, so their language would be closer to the Semitic Languages, possibly. And There's nothing on the Southern Riverkin yet.

Also, ref seems to be basing a little bit of the syntax on Lojban, which makes sense seeing as it was originally created so that there was no misunderstandings, or as little as possible with language.

Actually, I think he said he's making it a logical conlang, which are a group of conlangs made to be as logical as possible. Lojban is actually one of a group of them.

[unosarta]

Ah. Looking at Wikipedia now says it's actually in the Sinitic language tree, so it isn't even classified as the same language tree.

Actually, I think wikipedia defines Chinese more as Indo-Sinitic, but yeah.

Well, looking at again, Wikipedia, the Japonic language group, of which Japanese and Ryukyuan languages are in, is either an isolate, or part of the Altaic group, which covers parts of Russia and Central Asia.

Reading on the Japonic language family has proved very interesting. I have never even heard of the Ryukyu islands.

And I don't have a problem with phonemes, usually. I generally find it easy pronouncing a lot of them.

Actually, thinking on it now, Chinese has a few hard ones too, like zhi. But I am sort of getting off track.

Ah, I see. It's just that the way you were talking about it when you were comparing it with Chinese made me think otherwise.

Haha, no. Chinese is honestly worse than Japanese for me because tones are a pain in the ass, although I like working with characters.

Well, the Sea Sharlaq are closer to the Ancient Egyptians for now, so their language would be closer to the Semitic Languages, possibly. And There's nothing on the Southern Riverkin yet.

Hm, OK. I know that it is before development, but are you thinking of having them share an alphabet with the other Sharlaq, or have their own writing system?

Actually, I think he said he's making it a logical conlang, which are a group of conlangs made to be as logical as possible. Lojban is actually one of a group of them.

Interesting... still, from what I know of Lojban, it sounded sort of similar.

[ref]

Whoa, long discussion here. First things first, however. Welcome on board, unosarta.

I am also a student of Japanese. My plan is not taking the whole syntax, as you said, but namely the particle system, expanded to its logical consequences.

If you feel the need of your words coming out respectfully, the key is in the mood indicator.
[mood:order] Drink (sub) you (direct) water (loc) near. (Drink this water!)
[mood:request] Drink (sub) you (direct) water (loc) near. (Drink this water, please.)
[mood: formal request] Drink (sub) you (direct) water (loc) near. (Would you please drink this water here?)

Gnomish is VSO, but with flexibility for emphasis, which allows one to deviate from that. Other than that, the construction is fairly procedural. Particle Speech Particle Speech Particle Speech... so learning Gnomish can be a long process, but at least you're not ridden with exceptions, and exceptions to the exceptions, and so on...

Ideally, Gnomish ends up being "logical natural", that is, we're not taking the logical to the extreme, with a language that ends up looking like a programming language. This is supposed to have evolved from the same proto-language that Sharlaq, but with emphasis soon put on the removal of ambiguities.

[unosarta]

Whoa, long discussion here. First things first, however. Welcome on board, unosarta.

Yeah, we kind of got side tracked.
Thanks! This is really cool, for what it is worth.

I am also a student of Japanese. My plan is not taking the whole syntax, as you said, but namely the particle system, expanded to its logical consequences.

Nice! Ah, that would work. Japanese particles are part of what I really like about the language, I can almost always tell exactly what the speaker means within context, given by the particle. That would probably work very well for the feel of Gnomish that I am getting. Also, by "Expand to its logical consequences," do you mean add more, or simply adapt right from Japanese? Also, having thought about it now, one way you could take it, would be instead of conjugating the verb, in Gnomish, you could conjugate the particle that affects the verb. Just an idea.

If you feel the need of your words coming out respectfully, the key is in the mood indicator.
[mood:order] Drink (sub) you (direct) water (loc) near. (Drink this water!)
[mood:request] Drink (sub) you (direct) water (loc) near. (Drink this water, please.)
[mood: formal request] Drink (sub) you (direct) water (loc) near. (Would you please drink this water here?)

Interesting. So, mood indicators come at the beginning of the sentence? OK. Also, I think that would be a good separation from Japanese, where the longer the sentence is, the more respect is given, in general.

Gnomish is VSO, but with flexibility for emphasis, which allows one to deviate from that. Other than that, the construction is fairly procedural. Particle Speech Particle Speech Particle Speech... so learning Gnomish can be a long process, but at least you're not ridden with exceptions, and exceptions to the exceptions, and so on...

I can imagine that particles would certainly make that possible. Also, no exceptions would be very helpful.

Ideally, Gnomish ends up being "logical natural", that is, we're not taking the logical to the extreme, with a language that ends up looking like a programming language. This is supposed to have evolved from the same proto-language that Sharlaq, but with emphasis soon put on the removal of ambiguities.

Ah, OK, so it is still "natural". That implies that a lot of changes have happened to Gnomish, while relatively few have happened to the Sharlaq, as from what I can tell (since the original proto-language is not available, unless the above Sharlaq that Maximum Zersk has been making is the original proto-language).

So, I was wondering. Have you any thoughts on the actual scripts for Gnomish? I would like to update the table that Maximum Zersk made above to include some sort of possible ideas on the alphabets of each. I was thinking that the High Gnomish language might have a pictorial system, so as to remove even more discrepancies and misunderstandings via language, especially seeing as most advanced, or semi-advanced scientific powers that have appeared in actual history have relied fairly heavily on writing, in order to preserve their ideas, so it stands to reason that the Gnomes might too. And pictorial systems do offer, usually, less discrepancies in reading.

Any thoughts?

[Edit]: Tables!

{table=head]Language|Syntax|Theme|Writing System

North River Sharlaq|VSO|River People (reflections in language)|???

South River Sharlaq|???|Southern River Sharlaq Language|???

SeaSharlaq|???|Sea Sharlaq|???

Gnomish, high|Varied|Scientific, used in academic/court settings|Maybe pictorial?

Gnomish, low|Varied, usually VSO|Used by the common people|???

Human (branch 1)|???| ???|???

Human (branch 2)|???|???|???

Human (branch 3)|???|???|???

Thoughtspeech?|???|Used by powerful mages to understand the thought processes of others. Possibly a personal based language, depending person to person|Probably none[/table]

[Maximum Zersk]

Ah, OK, so it is still "natural". That implies that a lot of changes have happened to Gnomish, while relatively few have happened to the Sharlaq, as from what I can tell (since the original proto-language is not available, unless the above Sharlaq that Maximum Zersk has been making is the original proto-language).

Heh, yeah, it is. Basically, it's from the point in time where that language and the Sea Sharlaq Language were noticably different, but before they split into different languages.

[unosarta]

Heh, yeah, it is. Basically, it's from the point in time where that language and the Sea Sharlaq Language were noticably different, but before they split into different languages.

Hm, OK, that changes somethings. Oo! Maybe at this point, Sharlaq didn't have a script! This would explain what they have a tense for ancient history (needing to remember it, without having an actual way to write it down), and also why the more modern Sharlaq and Gnomish do not share a script; they developed it after the split, when they went their collective separate ways, as races. That could be interesting.

So, this is North River Sharlaq, that we are talking about? Or is that a more evolved language?

[Maximum Zersk]

Hm, OK, that changes somethings. Oo! Maybe at this point, Sharlaq didn't have a script! This would explain what they have a tense for ancient history (needing to remember it, without having an actual way to write it down), and also why the more modern Sharlaq and Gnomish do not share a script; they developed it after the split, when they went their collective separate ways, as races. That could be interesting.

So, this is North River Sharlaq, that we are talking about? Or is that a more evolved language?

North River Sharlaq. It's going to develop into multiple different languages later. We're going by the tree model here, I think.

[unosarta]

North River Sharlaq. It's going to develop into multiple different languages later. We're going by the tree model here, I think.

OK. You might not want to add anything else, then, since it will be easier to adapt and add to if it is sort of bare bones. Hm. So, does the idea of not having a script pass? Or do you want them to have a simplified alphabet?

[Maximum Zersk]

No script right now. Though I may have an idea for a featural alphabet (like Hangul) for later.

[unosarta]

No script right now. Though I may have an idea for a featural alphabet (like Hangul) for later.

OK. I am sort of confused by the Wikipedia entry, but as far as I can tell, each symbol is sort of like a radical, with a pronunciation? So, you could combine three into one symbol, in order to make a phoneme? Correct me if I am wrong.

That would be very interesting.

[Maximum Zersk]

OK. I am sort of confused by the Wikipedia entry, but as far as I can tell, each symbol is sort of like a radical, with a pronunciation? So, you could combine three into one symbol, in order to make a phoneme? Correct me if I am wrong.

That would be very interesting.

Well, the way it works, each radical is a phoneme, yes. And when you put them together, you get a syllable. So each character is one syllable.

[unosarta]

Well, the way it works, each radical is a phoneme, yes. And when you put them together, you get a syllable. So each character is one syllable.

Interesting. That seems a little bit advanced for a proto-language to me.

[Maximum Zersk]

Heh, yeah. So I'm probably going to keep it for later.

[unosarta]

Heh, yeah. So I'm probably going to keep it for later.

OK. Hm. I have no idea about what else to talk about, until Ref comments on the idea of conjugated particles, so I am going to make a table!

Or, at least, copy a table, and add more data.

{table=head]Language|Syntax|Theme|Writing System

North River Sharlaq|VSO|River People (reflections in language)|None/Featural Alphabet

South River Sharlaq|???|Southern River Sharlaq Language|???

SeaSharlaq|SVO/VSO/VOS|Sea Sharlaq|???

Gnomish, high|Varied|Scientific, used in academic/court settings|Maybe pictorial?

Gnomish, low|Varied, usually VSO|Used by the common people|Probably phonetic alphabet

Human (Native American/First Nation)|SOV/OSV| ???|???

Human (branch 2)|???|???|???

Human (branch 3)|???|???|???

Thoughtspeech?|???|Used by powerful mages to understand the thought processes of others. Possibly a personal based language, depending person to person|Probably none[/table]

So. Are you considering the North River Sharlaq complete, or does it still need some work (syntax wise, it could probably use a few more words, but that can be dealt with later)? If so, any ideas on how to deal with Sea Sharlaq and South River Sharlaq? Also, is there a map for the locations where they live, and has there been any progress on the creation of culture for the humans?

[Maximum Zersk]

North River-kin probably needs some polishing, but for now, it's okay.

For the Sea Sharlaq Language, it's going to be a bit similar to North Riverkin, but still a few noticible differences. First of all, that'd mean it would probably be a similar word order. So either VSO, SVO, or VOS. And the syllable structure might be the same. I'm thinking maybe something like (C[something])V(C). I'll have to thing up the phonemes.

For the humans, the culture of one of them was going to be close to Native American/First Nations. No idea which group it'd be similar to, though. But that'd mean that their language would possibly be Tripartite. Maybe they'd be SOV, or OSV. Their language would be quite different than the Gnomes and the Sharlaq. Not sure about the other two groups yet, though.

[unosarta]

North River-kin probably needs some polishing, but for now, it's okay.

OK.

For the Sea Sharlaq Language, it's going to be a bit similar to North Riverkin, but still a few noticible differences. First of all, that'd mean it would probably be a similar word order. So either VSO, SVO, or VOS. And the syllable structure might be the same. I'm thinking maybe something like (C[something])V(C). I'll have to think up the phonemes.

OK, the table is updated, in the post above, since reposting the table seems kind of weird/pointless.

For the humans, the culture of one of them was going to be close to Native American/First Nations. No idea which group it'd be similar to, though. But that'd mean that their language would possibly be Tripartite. Maybe they'd be SOV, or OSV. Their language would be quite different than the Gnomes and the Sharlaq. Not sure about the other two groups yet, though.

OK, table is updated with possible syntax for the first branch.

[Tulio d Bard]

That thing about VSO for Sarlaq language was thought exactly because it emphasised their actions. But at that time I thought they were agressive. If you guys want to change it, I suggest that, instead of changing the order itself, make it SeaSharlaq language. Or, like it is now, proto-language, allowing us to change it when it comes to River Croc Language itself. Probably VSO for SeaSharlaq (agressive), OVS/OSV for River Sharlaq (both of them? - family oriented people), Gnomish may vary and no idea for the Humans, as I see it.

I personally don't like that Thoughtspeech. We're trying to keep it low-magic level and I don't see why they would use another language if they did speak throught thoughts.

unosarta, you may want to check this site, as you seem very interested in scripts. I don't remember if I mentioned it before, so the sugestion's also valid to everyone else.

[Maximum Zersk]

Omniglot's a pretty cool site. It gives information about languages and scripts and doesn't afraid of anything.


Well, we'll see about the word order. There are actually quite a few languages that are VSO, and the native speakers aren't really that much more violent than everybody else.