Tooth and Tentacle [base class PEACH]

[Owrtho]

So, to do list:

1) The devour alteration? The most recent version is reposted below, including alterations to the Jaws that Bite ability and the Hooked Teeth augment so that they still work with the new ability. I don't think this version has any issues:

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Devour(Ex): If a second level or higher Ozodrin pins an opponent, and that opponent is in the same square as at least one of the Ozodrin’s mouths, the Ozodrin may begin eating that opponent. Each round the Ozodrin maintains the pin the opponent takes a point of con damage plus an additional point of con damage per four class levels. The opponent also takes regular damage equal to twice the Ozodrin’s class level. For each point of con damage successfully dealt to the opponent the Ozodrin heals 2 points of damage. The Ozodrin may cough up any magical or inorganic items possessed by one or more completely eaten opponents (opponents that were killed by this ability) as a standard action as long as they do so within ten minutes of eating the opponent(s). Pieces of inorganic opponents such as iron golems cannot be coughed up this way and unusually potent items, such as artifacts, might survive longer than ten minutes.

Razor Teeth: Additional cost 6
Required level 4: Opponents being devoured by you in the same square as this mouth take an additional point of con damage per round and 5 additional points of regular damage per round.

Jaws that Bite (Ex): If a creature attempts to use a Swallow Whole special attack against a 5th level or higher ozodrin manifesting it's true nature that has at least one mouth, the ozodrin may choose to make a grapple attempt in response. If successful, the ozodrin avoids being swallowed and instead pins the opponent and begins devouring them. The Ozodrin may choose to use their own Swallow Whole special attack instead if they have one. This grapple check does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

2) Hole in Time.

3) I will eventually give suggestions for medicine maker
.
4) The ability for a mid-op PC to luck into a +40 grapple mod at level 3 is still an issue. Maybe just add a line to all of the reduction augments that states that they are applied BEFORE other augments? That way you are still paying at least 1+2 = 3fp for a hooked tentacle, while still allowing for cheaper versions of base augments. Also fixes some other, less important corner cases.

I really should get around to that first one, though as a side note I plan to keep the normal damage is just the bite damage and only done if the target is immune to con damage part from the current version of devour.

For the second, I always forget which is the version of time flow alteration that is easily broken. That said, it seems the easiest way to deal with it is a note under special that DMs may choose to only grant one direction of time alteration from the feat, or split it into two feats.

For the third thing, I really should look into fixing that.

On the fourth thing, I think a better solution would be to make it so if augments are added, the minimum is instead the base cost of the feature. It is intentional that the reduction applies after augments are added, and in most cases that isn't a problem. The problem as noted really comes in with just a few specific cases. The noted change would result in a minimum cost of 2 for hooked tentacles if one took two levels of esoteric tentacle (minimum cost of 3 otherwise).

Speaking of esoteric classes, I've just added the last two of the 12 feature types found in the standard ozodrin class (flesh and lure trap), check out the thread for details. As I'd mentioned I might do, the swarm augment I thought of for spawn was adapted to be the esoteric flesh augment.

In some other news, I moved the two aberrant feats from the previous page that granted bonuses to knowledge checks for things you eat to the first page.

Owrtho

[Hellfire014]

I think I might be in love with this class. It looks so fun. My only problem with it is that the stomach feature (meaning Menacing Manor prc) takes so long to get.

also, a question:

An ozodrin may add, remove, or change a feature from its manifested form as a move action or a standard action.

Does this mean I can only change features 1/round? Or was it intended to mean that I could change around many features at a time, potentially going from a combat-focused form to a movement-focused form, for example?

Derp, didn't see Rapid Form. Still, that seems to be VERY late in the class. Looks like level 14 is now my favorite Ozodrin level

[Magikeeper]

On Devour:

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I really should get around to that first one, though as a side note I plan to keep the normal damage is just the bite damage and only done if the target is immune to con damage part from the current version of devour.

Why the "only if immune" part? I don't think it would be an issue to do both. Also, would that damage be based on the largest mouth in the same square? The way that my current suggestion doesn't allow for multiple mouths devouring the same target was intentional, which is why the damage is not based on the bite attack. That and it would require the player to pick a mouth.


Basically, my current version is

1) they pin and bonus damage occurs. If con damage is dealt, healing happens.

Adding mouth picking changes it to
2) they pin, pick a mouth, can't use mouth for other things, then they roll bonus damage. If con damage is dealt, healing happens. Can they pin the same target with multiple mouths? Must be defined.

If we add immunity part, then it changes to
3) they pin, pick a mouth, can't use mouth for other things, then they MIGHT roll bonus damage which changes if they should have used a big mouth or a small mouth. If con damage is dealt, healing happens.

I don't think #3 is worth it. Yes, there are other abilities that make a distinction regarding con. But sneak attack and the like are inherently simpler effects than devour - the only complication for those abilities is when the <effect> is applied. Or if the PC goes out of their way to add variable effects - but in that case the PC is getting what they asked for (like a PC taking the ACF that grants the original devour).

There are many things in D&D that could be modeled more accurately if we used clunkier mechanics for them.

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Esoteric: I notice that you can take multiple Esoteric prestige classes as long as you don't take the 2nd level of any of them. Is this intentional? The ability is worded very... oddly. Looks like a typo is in all of the classes.

On Specifics:

Puppet: This is cool.

Lure: This is awesome. It needs to note if this affliction is extraordinary or supernatural.

Flesh: By far the Strongest of the 12. It is also the second best class to take the second level in. Any Ozodrin that doesn't intend to hit level 19-20 should probably take this class. If they do intend to reach epic, take this class at level 21 if they haven't already. 20fp to become immune to weapon damage? Even with the penalties that is a ridiculous power to be able to whip out in the time it takes to form two flesh features. This ability is too strong. Warlock swarm power is terrible because they technically can't leave it or do anything useful while its up.

Spawn: Cool idea. What happens when a fine-sized spawn dies? Also, you should specify "spawn augments" unless you split up features but their augments stay behind 0_o.

Special Eyes: Interesting. No issues here.

Fin: Cool idea, I think it could be implemented in a much simpler fashion. I think trying to use it right now would bring combat to a screeching halt while player and DM made sense of it. Best class to take the second level in.

Spike: It mentions "break from grapple", but never actually says the spike grapples them. I think you mean if they break free from a feature that is grappling them while having a barbed spike, but the ability is very unclear. I would remove the grapple bit entirely - if you grapple them the spike will probably be damaging them anyway. Also, I suggest having the embedded spikes also cause bleeding damage instead of messing around with max HP.

Limb: Interesting.

Tentacle: Sounds like this augment should require hooked tentacle. Otherwise the length comment doesn't make any sense.

Mouth: Nothing wrong here.

Eye: I like this augment.

[Owrtho]

I think I might be in love with this class. It looks so fun. My only problem with it is that the stomach feature (meaning Menacing Manor prc) takes so long to get.

also, a question:

Does this mean I can only change features 1/round? Or was it intended to mean that I could change around many features at a time, potentially going from a combat-focused form to a movement-focused form, for example?

Derp, didn't see Rapid Form. Still, that seems to be VERY late in the class. Looks like level 14 is now my favorite Ozodrin level

Glad you like it. While I agree that the stomach feature feels like it comes a bit late, that does seem to be the best place for it when also looking at other features and the like.

As for your concern over the changing of features, I'd first note that you may use two move actions or a move and standard action to change out two features. Worth noting is that the the changing part means replacing one feature with another, rather than just removing one or adding one. Also keep in mind that augments are not factored in here, so you may place as many augments on a feature as you want and still have it only count as one feature (or half a feature if it is a basic eye).
The main thing though, is that at least early on the features are not intended to be rapidly changed. They are intended to be something chosen ahead of time, and the slowness of swapping them is to help discourage mid combat form optimizing until later levels when it is more balanced to have such an ability. That said, if you really want rapid changing, I'd suggest looking at the ever changing PRC located in the same thread as the menacing manor (post two if I remember properly).

On Devour:

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Why the "only if immune" part? I don't think it would be an issue to do both. Also, would that damage be based on the largest mouth in the same square? The way that my current suggestion doesn't allow for multiple mouths devouring the same target was intentional, which is why the damage is not based on the bite attack. That and it would require the player to pick a mouth.


Basically, my current version is

1) they pin and bonus damage occurs. If con damage is dealt, healing happens.

Adding mouth picking changes it to
2) they pin, pick a mouth, can't use mouth for other things, then they roll bonus damage. If con damage is dealt, healing happens. Can they pin the same target with multiple mouths? Must be defined.

If we add immunity part, then it changes to
3) they pin, pick a mouth, can't use mouth for other things, then they MIGHT roll bonus damage which changes if they should have used a big mouth or a small mouth. If con damage is dealt, healing happens.

I don't think #3 is worth it. Yes, there are other abilities that make a distinction regarding con. But sneak attack and the like are inherently simpler effects than devour - the only complication for those abilities is when the <effect> is applied. Or if the PC goes out of their way to add variable effects - but in that case the PC is getting what they asked for (like a PC taking the ACF that grants the original devour).

There are many things in D&D that could be modeled more accurately if we used clunkier mechanics for them.

Well, main thing is that con damage already deals hp damage. The normal damage is to replace that in situations where con damage cannot be dealt. I don't think it is particularly clunky myself, as it boils down to:
Can you deal Con damage?
If yes: deal con damage.
If no: deal bite damage.

On the question of which mouth deals the damage, I'd note that as separate mouths devour separately, the one that is doing the devouring deals the bite damage. Though may just say that it is of the valid mouth of the ozodrin's choice since that may not really translate over to the simplified version.

Esoteric: I notice that you can take multiple Esoteric prestige classes as long as you don't take the 2nd level of any of them. Is this intentional? The ability is worded very... oddly. Looks like a typo is in all of the classes.

I think you are misreading that. Nothing says you can't take other esoteric classes. What it says is you can't have them progress the features of other esoteric classes you have taken. An esoteric class is not limited to advancing ozodrin features on its second level. You may for example choose to advance your menacing manor features (which will include ozodrin features), or beast sculpted features (also includes ozodrin), or really any other ozodrin prc so long as it isn't an esoteric one.

Looking at it, there seems to be an issue of poor wording that may need cleaning up.

As a side note, further discourse on the esoteric classes should be done in the menacing manor thread, which from the looks of things failed to properly bump when after I made a post the other day noting the update.

Puppet: This is cool.

Glad you like it.

Lure: This is awesome. It needs to note if this affliction is extraordinary or supernatural.

Right, forgot about that. It should be extraordinary I think, though the act of inflicting it is supernatural.

Flesh: By far the Strongest of the 12. It is also the second best class to take the second level in. Any Ozodrin that doesn't intend to hit level 19-20 should probably take this class. If they do intend to reach epic, take this class at level 21 if they haven't already. 20fp to become immune to weapon damage? Even with the penalties that is a ridiculous power to be able to whip out in the time it takes to form two flesh features. This ability is too strong. Warlock swarm power is terrible because they technically can't leave it or do anything useful while its up.

I see. Any suggestion on how to help reduce it being so strong?

Spawn: Cool idea. What happens when a fine-sized spawn dies? Also, you should specify "spawn augments" unless you split up features but their augments stay behind 0_o.

On the fine sized part, it would become fine- I expect. As for the augments, I may have overlooked that.

Special Eyes: Interesting. No issues here.

Good to know.

Fin: Cool idea, I think it could be implemented in a much simpler fashion. I think trying to use it right now would bring combat to a screeching halt while player and DM made sense of it. Best class to take the second level in.

I found it a bit convoluted myself, but have yet to figure out a simpler way to word things.

Spike: It mentions "break from grapple", but never actually says the spike grapples them. I think you mean if they break free from a feature that is grappling them while having a barbed spike, but the ability is very unclear. I would remove the grapple bit entirely - if you grapple them the spike will probably be damaging them anyway. Also, I suggest having the embedded spikes also cause bleeding damage instead of messing around with max HP.

The breaking from grapple is referring to getting out of a grapple with the player when that grapple included the spikes. The description notes that removing the spike counts as breaking from grapple. The max hp reduction is intended to make it worth taking them out, though due to the part about it counting as breaking from a grapple causes a penalty when you do. As for them not causing bleeding damage, this is due to the spike plugging the wound.

Limb: Interesting.

Along with the mouth this is likely one of the least inspired augments, but I think it works well enough.

Tentacle: Sounds like this augment should require hooked tentacle. Otherwise the length comment doesn't make any sense.

That should mention that part only applies to tentacles that have the hooked tentacle augment as well.

Mouth: Nothing wrong here.

As mentioned above, I don't find it very inspired, but as with the other, I think it works well enough. That said, if better suggestions were made for either I may well change them.

Eye: I like this augment.

I like this one myself. It is fairly simple, but allows the ozodrin an ability it couldn't otherwise emulate while remaining flavourful and somewhat niche.

I notice you skipped the esoteric stomach, was that intentional?

Owrtho

[Hellfire014]

Glad you like it. While I agree that the stomach feature feels like it comes a bit late, that does seem to be the best place for it when also looking at other features and the like.

As for your concern over the changing of features, I'd first note that you may use two move actions or a move and standard action to change out two features. Worth noting is that the the changing part means replacing one feature with another, rather than just removing one or adding one. Also keep in mind that augments are not factored in here, so you may place as many augments on a feature as you want and still have it only count as one feature (or half a feature if it is a basic eye).
The main thing though, is that at least early on the features are not intended to be rapidly changed. They are intended to be something chosen ahead of time, and the slowness of swapping them is to help discourage mid combat form optimizing until later levels when it is more balanced to have such an ability. That said, if you really want rapid changing, I'd suggest looking at the ever changing PRC located in the same thread as the menacing manor (post two if I remember properly).

Owrtho

Thank you for the clarification, though I think I am more worried about swapping augments quickly. Now that I think about it, I shouldn't need to switch from mass-spike launcher to melee/grapple optimized to do well at it.

a few more questions:
If I had a ranged spike on a tentacle, could I attack an enemy at range, then hit something else with the tentacle? Or since they are technically together, do I have to attack one or the other? What is this attack limit mentioned in the Throwing/Quickshot Spikes section? I thought natural attacks could only be used once per round each, regardless of BAB.

Concerning the Otherworldly Skill feat, do the Fighter Bonus Feats have to be gained from fighter class levels, or is it any feat with the [Fighter] tag? And does the penalty still apply even if the natural weapon is using its natural damage type (claws and slashing, for example)?

I've seen the Ever Changing prc, and the required change every 3/2/1 round(s) doesn't appeal to me the same way as the Menacing Manor prc does.

[Necroticplague]

a few more questions:
If I had a ranged spike on a tentacle, could I attack an enemy at range, then hit something else with the tentacle? Or since they are technically together, do I have to attack one or the other? What is this attack limit mentioned in the Throwing/Quickshot Spikes section? I thought natural attacks could only be used once per round each, regardless of BAB.

You could use them separately, though in this case, the spike would be gone and the tentacle would not get the extra damage from it (unless you re-grew the spike in between). The attack limit is the ones that stops ozodrins from simply taking improved multiattack and then having full-round attacks that take a half-hour to finish. It's under Features (ex) in its own little paragraph

Also, while many features grant natural attacks, an ozodrin cannot make more attacks with its natural attacks granted by features per round than half the sum of its class level + its Charisma modifier.

So if you had more attack-granting features than that, you could only attack with so many of them per turn. The sentence your talking about is saying that re-growing a spike counts against this limit.As a result, firing a spike twice uses up 3 attacks in a full-round attack (one to fire, one to regrow spike, one to fire again).

[Magikeeper]

Esoteric: I just missed stomach. It should mention the DC increases are per factor, but otherwise this is cool.


Esoteric Mouth augment suggestion:

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Windswept Maw: Additional cost 8
The ozodrin can suck in vast quantities of air, potentially pulling in enemies. As a standard action, the ozodrin can create a cone of air 5’ long plus 5' per mouth size category above medium. The ozodrin than makes a single bullrush check (using the mouth’s size modifier). Any creatures caught in the cone must make an opposed bullrush check or be pushed towards the mouth. Unlike a normal bullrush attempt the mouth need not move with the creatures to push them more than 5ft. If the Ozodrin possesses the swallow whole ability then the closest opponent that would be pushed into the Ozodrin’s square is swallowed if it is at least one size category smaller than the mouth. Alternately, an ozodrin may attempt a grapple check against that opponent in order pin that opponent in the mouth used to suck in the air. Creatures behind the closest opponent cannot be swallowed/grappled by this ability and merely stop being pushed when they run out of unoccupied spaces to be pushed into. In the case of a tie, the Ozodrin may choose which opponent they grapple/swallow. This ability only functions underwater if the Ozodrin possesses the swallow whole special ability.

Keeping Esoteric flesh as a swarm feature would at least require a minimum size of tiny, which is only half damage from certain weapon types. I don't know what else it would take without playtesting it. I've used "can become a (Size < Tiny) sized swarm" before on some undead NPCs before so I have a feel for how amazing that ability is both in and out of combat.

Idea for a different Esoteric flesh feature. A bit rough though:

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Sloughing Flesh: Additional cost 10
As a standard action the Ozodrin may shed their flesh, emerging from some part of their body in an adjacent square (If there are no adjacent squares then this ability fails). Any items the Ozodrin is wearing likewise shed and are present on the ozodrin’s new body. Spells and effects that are not purely mental in nature do not transfer to the Ozodrin’s new body unless they would be passed along by a creature using True Mind Switch to gain the body of another creature. Any spells or effects that do not transfer continue to effect the Ozodrin’s discarded flesh if they effect objects. Continual area effects may force the Ozodrin to make a new saving throw. The ozodrin is freed from any grapples they were currently a part of. This ability does not otherwise heal the Ozodrin. If you are using pretending flesh, then you can only use this ability if the currently active pretending flesh possesses this feature. This is a supernatural ability.

[Owrtho]

Concerning the Otherworldly Skill feat, do the Fighter Bonus Feats have to be gained from fighter class levels, or is it any feat with the [Fighter] tag? And does the penalty still apply even if the natural weapon is using its natural damage type (claws and slashing, for example)?

That would be any feat with the fighter tag, regardless of source that granted it to you. Most things I see simply refer to them as fighter bonus feats.

I've seen the Ever Changing prc, and the required change every 3/2/1 round(s) doesn't appeal to me the same way as the Menacing Manor prc does.

That is understandable. On main thing to remember though with it, is that the abilities it grants boil down to change your features when attacking or defending to gain a bonus, meaning in combat you are unlikely to have issues with the changing every few rounds. Similarly while in its worldly guise, the penalties only accumulate hourly and are much less harsh (just a skill point penalty rather than an ability penalty).

Esoteric: I just missed stomach. It should mention the DC increases are per factor, but otherwise this is cool.

You're right, that does need to be added.

Esoteric Mouth augment suggestion:

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Windswept Maw: Additional cost 8
The ozodrin can suck in vast quantities of air, potentially pulling in enemies. As a standard action, the ozodrin can create a cone of air 5’ long plus 5' per mouth size category above medium. The ozodrin than makes a single bullrush check (using the mouth’s size modifier). Any creatures caught in the cone must make an opposed bullrush check or be pushed towards the mouth. Unlike a normal bullrush attempt the mouth need not move with the creatures to push them more than 5ft. If the Ozodrin possesses the swallow whole ability then the closest opponent that would be pushed into the Ozodrin’s square is swallowed if it is at least one size category smaller than the mouth. Alternately, an ozodrin may attempt a grapple check against that opponent in order pin that opponent in the mouth used to suck in the air. Creatures behind the closest opponent cannot be swallowed/grappled by this ability and merely stop being pushed when they run out of unoccupied spaces to be pushed into. In the case of a tie, the Ozodrin may choose which opponent they grapple/swallow. This ability only functions underwater if the Ozodrin possesses the swallow whole special ability.

At first I thought this seemed to overlap a bit much with the esoteric fin augment, then I finished reading it and realized it was just fine even if they both make strong winds/whirlpools. The only change I think I'd make would be allowing it to be applied multiple times, each additional application allowing one more creature to be swallowed whole per use. I think I'll change the esoteric mouth shortly.

Keeping Esoteric flesh as a swarm feature would at least require a minimum size of tiny, which is only half damage from certain weapon types. I don't know what else it would take without playtesting it. I've used "can become a (Size < Tiny) sized swarm" before on some undead NPCs before so I have a feel for how amazing that ability is both in and out of combat.

Idea for a different Esoteric flesh feature. A bit rough though:

Spoiler

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Sloughing Flesh: Additional cost 10
As a standard action the Ozodrin may shed their flesh, emerging from some part of their body in an adjacent square (If there are no adjacent squares then this ability fails). Any items the Ozodrin is wearing likewise shed and are present on the ozodrin’s new body. Spells and effects that are not purely mental in nature do not transfer to the Ozodrin’s new body unless they would be passed along by a creature using True Mind Switch to gain the body of another creature. Any spells or effects that do not transfer continue to effect the Ozodrin’s discarded flesh if they effect objects. Continual area effects may force the Ozodrin to make a new saving throw. The ozodrin is freed from any grapples they were currently a part of. This ability does not otherwise heal the Ozodrin. If you are using pretending flesh, then you can only use this ability if the currently active pretending flesh possesses this feature. This is a supernatural ability.

Well, the change to prevent the player from becoming a size < tiny swarm seems like it could work, possibly still allowing spawn and possibly puppets to do so. It would still make the ability quite handy, but not nearly so powerful. May allow epic to do it. As for your suggested alternate, while it seems interesting and useful as well as suitably bizarre, I am somewhat preferential toward the swarm version.

Owrtho

[zorenathres]

just wanted to say this is a great project, i was thinking of making a half-golem bad guy with some twisted abilities & the ozodrin fits perfectly. Upon seeing the pic in the OP & reading the class i thought of the horror of horror's art by Anson Maddocks, with the misplaced eye & mouth.

[Tief]

Love the look of this class!
If I wanted to play one of these in a campaign how would I go about the abilities?
Does the first page have the fully updated versions of them or should I go backwards through the thread finding the latest updates to all of the abilities?

[Owrtho]

The first page is up to date with the exception of a somewhat still in development arguably simpler and decidedly easier to understand version of devour (the version currently on the first page will be moved down to being an alternate class feature once the just mentioned one is added).

Owrtho

[Tief]

Thanks, will be an interesting class to play.

[babus]

Hey, kind of curious what Improved Natural Attack does to the Ozodrin's natural weapons. Is it a free size upgrade across the board, or does it just not affect them?

[Necroticplague]

Hey, kind of curious what Improved Natural Attack does to the Ozodrin's natural weapons. Is it a free size upgrade across the board, or does it just not affect them?

You select a certain kind of weapon, and it improves that type. So if you had INT(Tentacle), any tentacles you made would do more damage. The only area this could get hazy in is INT (Spike), and INT (Gore), where spike doesn't effect it if it turns into a horn, and gore only applies when it is a horn.

[babus]

You select a certain kind of weapon, and it improves that type. So if you had INT(Tentacle), any tentacles you made would do more damage. The only area this could get hazy in is INT (Spike), and INT (Gore), where spike doesn't effect it if it turns into a horn, and gore only applies when it is a horn.

Hmm... so sacrificing Farspawn for it, which is worth about 8 Form points (9 if Human/StrongheartHalfling, 11 if taking the max two Flaws), with the requirement that you take all Aberrant feats, this would pay for itself if you were using more than 3+ Tentacles (or 4+ with race feat and Flaws). I believe Owrtho said somewhere that numerous smaller attacks were more efficient than one big one, so that could actually be a good feat to take, assuming you've already got picked up Monstrous Aberration for other reasons.

Less useful at start, but it'd get better as one gained more natural attacks per round.

[Owrtho]

Hmm... so sacrificing Farspawn for it, which is worth about 8 Form points (9 if Human/StrongheartHalfling, 11 if taking the max two Flaws), with the requirement that you take all Aberrant feats, this would pay for itself if you were using more than 3+ Tentacles (or 4+ with race feat and Flaws). I believe Owrtho said somewhere that numerous smaller attacks were more efficient than one big one, so that could actually be a good feat to take, assuming you've already got picked up Monstrous Aberration for other reasons.

Less useful at start, but it'd get better as one gained more natural attacks per round.

I believe what you are referencing there was discussion on trying to optimize for damage as a high level ozodrin, where it was determined that due to things which allowed all natural attacks to gain a bonus to damage which could be stacked, a number of overall weaker attacks benefiting from a variety of buffs (for example the flesh augment that can add a point of energy damage to all your natural attacks), can reach a higher average damage than just poring all your form points into one attack (though in some scenarios doing that may work better).

Owrtho

[babus]

I believe what you are referencing there was discussion on trying to optimize for damage as a high level ozodrin, where it was determined that due to things which allowed all natural attacks to gain a bonus to damage which could be stacked, a number of overall weaker attacks benefiting from a variety of buffs (for example the flesh augment that can add a point of energy damage to all your natural attacks), can reach a higher average damage than just poring all your form points into one attack (though in some scenarios doing that may work better).

Owrtho

That is indeed what I was referring to, yes. Assuming you're taking Monstrous Aberration for other reasons, it's not a bad option for form point economy.

As a side note, I had a thought regarding Discerning Taste/Refined Pallet. One that includes learning personal information from an enemy you Devour or Swallow Whole. Imagine if you will, swallowing a prisoner that you've knocked unconscious, learning the details of their home life, and then having them "wake up in their rooms with their loved ones telling them they were just having a terrible dream". The Truman Show and Magnetic Rose being important reference material here.

And considering you're tasting them, specifically, it would make sense that you'd understand their personal flavor.

[Gideon Falcon]

You know, I think this class needs a way to combat Freedom of Movement. Otherwise, one of its most powerful abilities becomes pretty much useless against anything with a decent amount of gear.

[General Patton]

I recently showed this to two of my friends who agree it has awesome flavor, but they believed it was horribly overpowered. Now, me and them, we come from two completely different worlds when it comes to this stuff. They actually play the game, whereas I've only had a bit of experience with CRPGs. On the other hand, I'm more familiar with GitP's homebrew content and what it's usually balanced for, and they are not (one of them was confused by the phrase Tier-1-Wizard, implying unfamiliarity with the Tier System, Wizard shenanigans and full-caster dominance in general).

So, are they right? Where does this fit on the Tier-System? I don't think they realized that Freedom of Movement is a big issue. Their biggest criticisms were...

-Almost everything is Ex so it can't be shut down. To this, I say FoM is the class' big nullifier.
-The Class Level bonus to intimidate. After checking the SRD, I'm not really impressed by what that gets you.
-The stomach capacity ends up exceeding that of, I believe they said, an Ancient Red Wyrm. But honestly, who ever manages to use that much?
-The AC and Hardness of the stomach. I'll agree that the AC seems a bit high.
-Anything extradimensional is supposed to be Su. I can see where they're coming from, but I think the extradimensionality is supposed to be an inherent part of your physiology.
-Strange Movement bypassing Dimensional Anchor. They seem to not like bypassing other things by virtue of existing at the cosmic level.

I'd kind of like to see this class have more of its abilities made Su, its power split into Form Points from Con and Cosmic Points from Cha, and then at higher levels it could do a Class Level vs Caster Level thing and spend Cosmic Points for the difference to overcome AMFs and Dimensional Anchor on some of its abilities.

Also, Strange Anatomy. It says you use "Class Level up to your Max Dex Bonus to AC". They said that this means, being unarmored at Level 20 gives you immunity to precision damage. Was that supposed to say "Class Level up to your Dex Bonus limited by Max Dex Bonus"?

[Magikeeper]

So, are they right? Where does this fit on the Tier-System? I don't think they realized that Freedom of Movement is a big issue. Their biggest criticisms were...

High tier 3 IMO. Note that this class is much more versatile as it nears level 20, but that is because we want the last 10 levels to stay relevant against prestige classes. Also, it is hard to be a crappy Ozodrin, so if everyone is making weak PCs this class might completely outshine them.

I would note that this class is extremely self-sufficient, so the less magic/items/etc the party has access too, the stronger this class gets.

-The Class Level bonus to intimidate. After checking the SRD, I'm not really impressed by what that gets you.

Yeah, I get the impression their claims of OPness is a knee-jerk reaction that is not supported by them actually trying the class.

-The stomach capacity ends up exceeding that of, I believe they said, an Ancient Red Wyrm. But honestly, who ever manages to use that much?

How many players play Ancient Red Wyrm Dragons? I think it would be better to ask "is this balanced in-game?", "Will this outshine everyone else?", etc. Things that actually matter for a PC class. Until high levels anything you would probably want to do with the stomach could be done with a portable hole / enveloping pit/ what have you.

-Anything extradimensional is supposed to be Su. I can see where they're coming from, but I think the extradimensionality is supposed to be an inherent part of your physiology.
-Strange Movement bypassing Dimensional Anchor. They seem to not like bypassing other things by virtue of existing at the cosmic level.

This is really something that needs to be playtested on a wider scale. We haven't had reports of SM actually being broken, but I do have a number of DMs who knee-jerk hate the whole unstoppable short range teleport thing. But the whole Ex-vs-Su thing is a niche situation, so it will probably take a ton of playtesting before we really know.

-Almost everything is Ex so it can't be shut down. To this, I say FoM is the class' big nullifier.

For the crazy grappling, yes. I still think we get +LoLNo grapple too early too easily. The stomach defenses end up as strong as they are as eating people at high levels is REALLY hard unless none of your enemies use FoM. Which would be very odd, at least in games I have played in. Even then, if it were easy to damage the stomach you are almost helping your enemies kill you by swallowing them (which most monsters are actually doing if they are stupid enough to swallow a high-level PC).

Gideon Falcon: I think the grappling should remain beaten by FoM. The ozodrin has other abilities it can use when FoM is in use.

I'd kind of like to see this class have more of its abilities made Su, its power split into Form Points from Con and Cosmic Points from Cha, and then at higher levels it could do a Class Level vs Caster Level thing and spend Cosmic Points for the difference to overcome AMFs and Dimensional Anchor on some of its abilities.

There is no reason to make this class more MAD than it already is. Ozodrin can't ignore their physical stats. The only contender for "Should this really be EX?", IMO, is strange movement.

[babus]

Something occurred to me.

When you've managed to swallow an opponent whole, and they're in your stomach with its somewhat potent defense and damage mitigation, do they have a way of attacking the features you've placed inside your stomach, or do they basically get wailed on by whatever you've got in there until they can make a big enough hole to escape?

I know a mouth on a tentacle can be attacked as if it were you, but in regards to normal tentacles, my DM may be slightly annoyed if whatever I eat is forced to get the snot slapped out of them while they try to dig out.

Edit: For the record, my character just hit level eight, so I'm staring at an AC of 26 with a hardness of 4 and wondering what exactly wouldn't be dead by the time it inflicted 32 damage on a wall that tough. That's around my level, at least.

[Owrtho]

Well, going through post:

Babus, that would be up to the DM, but it is worth noting that you're just getting information through taste, not reading their mind, thus actual details on the persons past and people they know would likely be difficult to figure out.
On the topic of those feats though, the stomach augment I threw together in the pm's for others that might be interested:

Assessing Threshold: Additional cost 1
Requires Entryway or Doorway augment, Discerning Taste feat: The selected entryway or doorway is capable of tasting those who pass through it, allowing any beings crossing its threshold to count as being swallowed whole for the purposes of the Discerning Taste and Refined Palate feats. This augment can be added to the same stomach multiple times. The effects don't stack, each time it is applied to a different entryway or doorway.

Gideon Falcon while it is true that freedom of movement easily negates the ozodrin's ability to use one of its more powerful skills, as Magikeeper mentioned, it has plenty of other ways to try dealing with things if that occurs, especially at the levels that is more likely to start becoming a big problem.

General Patton, Magikeeper addressed many of your questions (though I will add on the part about stomach capacity that given one of the goals at the outset of making the class was being able to swallow whole an ancient red wyrm it would certainly be odd if it didn't get larger than that). As mentioned, the difficulty of preventing strange movement is the main one that could be an issue. One possibility to lower the issues from it would be allowing it to get blocked by dimensional anchor aside from the usage of it with a travelling tentacle, meaning that solid walls could block it when in such an area.

babus on the issue of the stomach's defence, it's worth noting that against touch attacks, it has no dex, meaning that it is just 10 AC, similarly, it would auto fail reflex saves (I'm fairly certain this is the standard rules for such things, but if not means I should likely add that). With that, most anything that can do touch attacks or AoEs with either large amounts of damage or a large number of times per day will be able to get out somewhat easily. As for attacking features, they can't explicitly target them.

Hopefully some questions or the like are cleared up. If there are any others or clarification is desired feel free to ask.

Owrtho

[General Patton]

How does Naught Morality interact with prerequisites? Do you arbitrarily meet all alignment prereqs? Do extremes such as Exalted and Vile stuff still require you to act somewhat appropriately?

I believe that the oxygen capacity of the stomach needs to be higher, otherwise it is too difficult to smuggle your party in your worldly guise and any foe too weak to harm you can be suffocated far too easily. Could we get an augment to allow continuous fresh air even in our worldly guise? On a similar note, could we get something to allow survival in a vacuum?

Strange Anatomy was still never clarified. Is it 5% per Class Level up to a max of the lower of your Dex Bonus or Max Dex Bonus to AC? Or can you go unarmored to receive exactly 5% times Class Level and become immune to precision damage by Level 20 regardless of your Dex?

[Qwertystop]

Well, I looked at this a long while ago, and bookmarked it. I have been following it loosely for a while.

Then I forgot waht it was, skimmed the first post to remind myself when it updated again...


WOW.

How did I not realize this was awesome?

[Owrtho]

How does Naught Morality interact with prerequisites? Do you arbitrarily meet all alignment prereqs? Do extremes such as Exalted and Vile stuff still require you to act somewhat appropriately?

Well, this hasn't really been explored, but as it is, you likely would meet prerequisites for any feats and PRCs. As for acting appropriately, if they have actual codes or actions they need to follow, then yes, otherwise if it is only assumed based on the alignment prerequisites then no.

I believe that the oxygen capacity of the stomach needs to be higher, otherwise it is too difficult to smuggle your party in your worldly guise and any foe too weak to harm you can be suffocated far too easily. Could we get an augment to allow continuous fresh air even in our worldly guise? On a similar note, could we get something to allow survival in a vacuum?

Well, that was more based on trying to seem somewhat realistic, though perhaps a longer duration might fit better. As for an augment that allows more air, well, there is the issue that even augments (and features) in the stomach technically are removed when you enter your worldly guise, though that can be negated by specific rules for a feature or augment (like how the esoteric puppet augment does). It does seem possible though.

Strange Anatomy was still never clarified. Is it 5% per Class Level up to a max of the lower of your Dex Bonus or Max Dex Bonus to AC? Or can you go unarmored to receive exactly 5% times Class Level and become immune to precision damage by Level 20 regardless of your Dex?

I must have forgotten to reply to that having done so a few times in the past. In short, your actual dex modifier does not matter. It only cares about the max Dex of the armour. Thus as level 20 you always will have 100% chance to resist it if you are wearing no armour or under any other effects that limit you maximum possible Dexterity modifier to AC.

Owrtho

[Qwertystop]

Well, that was more based on trying to seem somewhat realistic

Sorry?

You've got a class that starts out as an eldritch abomination and progresses to become increasingly reality-distorting very quickly.

And you want it to be...

Realistic?

[Owrtho]

A valid point, though given I was specifically speaking of the volume inside the stomach relative to the amount of air one breathes on average per minute (which isn't likely to be altered much by the reality warping powers), a better one might be that it seems I'd overestimated how much air one breathes per minute. Based on some rough math and figures from a few google searches, it seems that a space with a volume of approximately the size of the average human would have enough air for a human to last between 4 and 5 minutes with mild activity. Not entirely sure how accurate that is, but basing it on that, 5 minutes per equal sized creatures available might work better.

Owrtho

[Qwertystop]

How does Shifting Shape work? it says that all features gain the augment, but also that there is a limit on how many features can have it at once, and that the cost of augmented features goes up. So do you gain a price increase and hard cap on the amount of features you can have?

[Owrtho]

When it says that all features have it, it is referring to feature types, not the actual features you make. As in the shifting augment is available to any type of feature. That said, you still need to pay for it like normal augments, and unlike other augments there is a limit to how many shifting augments you may have.

Owrtho

[zorenathres]

Owrtho, i am in the middle of designing an ozodrin villan & had an interesting thought. How about Bone features? not just like spikes but bone formations that can be used to make armor, shields, weapons (perhaps bone swords using the oodrins unearthly power bonus?) & maybe even bone walls/ structures with the menacing manor in mind? (reinforce structures or make them deadlier).

perhaps its not what you are looking for, if not i maybe a variant emphasizing bones as formations? lemme know what you think.