Warhammer 40K Tabletop VII: Common Sense is not RAW.

[Closet_Skeleton]

There's been at least one bit of art showing Black Templars wearing bits of animal skin and bits of art showing Black Templars with iconography borrowed from chapters they've fought alongside. I used Space Wolf models for my Black Templar terminators.

Plenty of people use the Space Wolf or Blood Angels books for Black Templars as well.

[lord_khaine]

Brave Sir Eagle Eye and his merry Guardians vs the Mad Space Dogs

My army 1000 point eldar

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farseer with doom, guide and fortune
10 Banshee's with Exarch in a wave serpent
10 dire avengers with exarch
20 guardians with Missiles
Wraithlord with Lance and missile

the Space Dogs

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Logan grim
Lone wolf
2* Wolfguard terminator squards with shields etc
Predator

The battle

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We were playing some Eldar battle mission where i had 1 objective in my deployment zone, and my opponent had 2 placed in each end of his deployment zone. I placed my Wave serpent on the left wing, and my objective on the right wing, along with my guardians and the Wraithlord.
I held my dire avengers in reserve, because a special rule in the mission meant they could then outflank.

My opponent then placed 1 squard of wolfguards on the left wing, the lone wolf in the middel, and Logan, the wolfguards as well as the Predator on the right objective.

Turn 1
The Wraithlord fired a couple of warning shot into the side of the Predator, stunning its crew, while the Wave Serpent flew down towards the left objective at unsafe speed

The Wolfguards fired back at the Wraithlord with a assult cannon, managing to wound it, while the Lone WolfMad Dog ran down towards the Wave serpent.

Turn 2
Eagle Eye DOOMED The Wolfguards on the left flank, before he jumped off the Wave serpent along with his Banshee's, and startet running towards the DOOMED Wolfguards. Meanwhile on the right flank the Wraitlord continued to hammer at the Predator with Its heavy weapons, though it yet again only managet to scare the crew into not shooting.
moving into assult, the banshee's cut 4 of the wolfguards down, though a couple of them unfortunately survived due to their stormshields.

The lone wolf then managet to reach the melee, and startet to tear the banshee's apart, while Logan and his Dogs continued their less than efficient firering upon the Wraithlord.

Turn 3
The Dire avengers appered on the left flak, and ran over to help pile up on the last 2 Wolfguards, while the Wraithlord, some random guardian with a missile launcer and the Wave Serpent gunner, in an amazing display of marksmanship, all managet to miss a Predator Tank.

Finaly being allowed to fire, the Predator startet hammering lose on the closest target, the guardiants hiding in the ruins, but due to a 4+ cover safe it only managet to kill 1.
Unfortunately the Mad Dog made up for the predators inefficiency, and while the Banshee's had just killed the last wolfguard, then the Dog was a bit to much for them to handle, and Eagle Eye bravely ran away with the 3 surviving banshee's, leaving the squard of Dire Avengers to handle the situation.

Turn 4

To make up for the embaresing display last round, the Wraithlord blasted a beam of pure laser energy though the turret on the predator, blowing it up in a impressive explosion.
Meanwhile the Dire Avenger Exarch failed to see why his brave commander made such a big fuzz over the Mad Dog, and put him down with a wellplaced swing of his power sword.

Having his ride busted up by the Wraithlord finaly made Logan start moving slowly down towards the guardians guarding my objective, while the Wolfgard with the assult cannon managet to remove yet another wound from the Wraithlord.

Turn 5
While Eagle Eye was bravely running down towards my deployment zone, the Dire Avengers had managet to take and hold an objective, and it seemed clear that victory would be mine as long as i could keep logan from taken the objective that the guardians were holding.
Therefore the Wave Serpent rushed down to place itself between Logan and his target, while a Wolfguard died to the withering crossfire from the Wraithlord and the guardians.

The surviving members of Logans Guard continued to move down towards my Objective, managing to kill another guardian with concentrated Stormbolter fire.

Turn 6

The Wraithlord moved in to intercept Logan, while continuing to fire upon the Wolfguards, but it were the guardians, who finaly had gotten a target in range, that managet to down 2 additional Wolfguards, before the lord of the Mad Dogs cut the Wraithlord down, as his last act before the battle endet.

[Mattarias, King.]

Maybe because you're playing Witch Hunters and your elites kind of suck despite sounding awesome in your head?

I- Uhm- ...Yeah..


...Clash of Heroes sounds awesome. I might have to get Battle Missions now...

Though those elites.. Hrrmm..

...On a sidenote, how does Celestine work with CoH? Does she still use Miraculous Intervention? ...Do you still have to have 1500 points to use her there?

[Cheesegear]

Maybe because you're playing Witch Hunters and your elites kind of suck despite sounding awesome in your head?

Grey Knight Terminators.

Yes. This is 100% correct. I'm a fool.

Ah, I remember now...Not shooting. If you're in Assault with a bunch of mooks and not your opponent's HQ, if your opponent doesn't specifically allocate to your character or the unit, then, you should allocate all hits to the character, and leave the unit fine.

So... As the discussion sort-of died, can someone inform me what of the three below Codices would be compatible with what Chapters?

Mostly, just use your common sense. If you have a legit reason for using the Codex other than "I like powergaming." then people will let you do whatever you want.

Don't screw around with it either. If you want that Chapter, play that Chapter, under those rules. Cherry-picking is not cool.
It's why I don't have Imperial Fist Thunderwolf Cavalry. After every game I'll go to my car to find my tyres slashed.

Aside from 'Use Common Sense, don't be a douche.' It depends how you want to play.

1st Company; Space Wolves or Dark Angels. Depending on points.
2nd-5th; Any, really. Depending on your preference.
6th; Codex Marines with Captain-on-Bike, or Dark Angels. Depending on Points.
7th; Technically undoable.
8th; Blood Angels
9th; Technically undoable.
10th; I'm going to go with Codex Marines, rather than Blood Angels, simply for access to Land Speeder Storms.

If you're going to do this, make sure you've painted/modeled your models as that Company. Otherwise, again, you're cherry-picking the best rule-set, and cruising for a punch in the head.

One guy at Club uses the Chaos Marine Codex to represent Iron Hands, and using the Nurgle/Plague Marine statline to represent what they want. There are no Daemon Princes, there are no Obliterators. There's no 'crazy Chaos crap'. There's no powergaming (even though Plague Marines are the s*), but, Plague Marines best represent the old Iron Hands rules.

There's just Iron Hands, under a Chaos Codex. T5 and I3. Iron Hands are tough but slow. Feel No Pain? Bionics.

Likewise, would a Chapter mixing some of the iconography be ok? Again, for example, skins (not necessarily brown) found in SW box mixed with BT crosses and chains on units - how many nerd-rage would that produce?

It depends if you have a legit reason for it. And just how prone to nerd-rage the people you usually play with tend to be. No-one has blinked an eye that I use Black Templar iconography with my Imperial Fists because it makes total sense.

...On a sidenote, how does Celestine work with CoH? Does she still use Miraculous Intervention? ...Do you still have to have 1500 points to use her there?

...Yes.
And yes.


And now to wait for agreeable posts so I can not double-post my Battle Report. It's got Captain Falcon and Dreadnought Ozai in it.

[Trixie]

Grey Knight Terminators.

In Witch Hunters? What?

Mostly, just use your common sense. If you have a legit reason for using the Codex other than "I like powergaming." then people will let you do whatever you want.

Um... So what an example legit reason would be? And, well, since when BT are powergaming?

By the way, you left several almost crippling disadvantages of BT army out of your review, I think. Sure, they're good if build right way, but their rules cripple most builds.

Don't screw around with it either. If you want that Chapter, play that Chapter, under those rules. Cherry-picking is not cool.

So... you're saying that there's no Chapter that can field a force belonging to two Codices? (Minus a few specific units, of course. Say, if I play using BT I add scouts to troops, if I play as SW I leave scouts on shelf, but take, say, Thunderwolves suitably converted to match the rest of BT army? )

1st Company; Space Wolves or Dark Angels. Depending on points.
2nd-5th; Any, really. Depending on your preference.
6th; Codex Marines with Captain-on-Bike, or Dark Angels. Depending on Points.
7th; Technically undoable.
8th; Blood Angels
9th; Technically undoable.
10th; I'm going to go with Codex Marines, rather than Blood Angels, simply for access to Land Speeder Storms.

If you're going to do this, make sure you've painted/modeled your models as that Company. Otherwise, again, you're cherry-picking the best rule-set, and cruising for a punch in the head.

Thanks, but... how many people know how particular companies are painted? (Save for something popular, like Smurfs). And, if we are here, since when SW or BT use companies or unit-specific paints, anyway?

One guy at Club uses the Chaos Marine Codex to represent Iron Hands, and using the Nurgle/Plague Marine statline to represent what they want. There are no Daemon Princes, there are no Obliterators. There's no 'crazy Chaos crap'. There's no powergaming (even though Plague Marines are the s*), but, Plague Marines best represent the old Iron Hands rules.

So... if I take Black Templars, what units out of SW Codex would be out? Librarians? Well, technically, they don't have that, but I see how Priests might not be ok. Veteran Scouts? What else?

It depends if you have a legit reason for it. And just how prone to nerd-rage the people you usually play with tend to be. No-one has blinked an eye that I use Black Templar iconography with my Imperial Fists because it makes total sense.

So... If I were to take, say, little known Chapter, such as Iron Lords, which share lineage white BT, paint them their black/red scheme, use red cross instead of BT white as their symbol (as according to Lexicanum theirs is unknown), then use them with SW/BT codex...

How many punches would that bring?

And now to wait for agreeable posts so I can not double-post my Battle Report. It's got Captain Falcon and Dreadnought Ozai in it.

Be my guest.

[Cheesegear]

In Witch Hunters? What?

Yes. The Allies rules are your friend.

Um... So what an example legit reason would be? And, well, since when BT are powergaming?

I don't know. Something stupid.

Sure, they're good if build right way, but their rules cripple most builds.

Such as? Builds that aren't for playing Black Templars anyway?

Say, if I play using BT I add scouts to troops, if I play as SW I leave scouts on shelf, but take, say, Thunderwolves suitably converted to match the rest of BT army? )

That's exactly what you shouldn't do. Where did the Black Templars get their Thunderwolves from? If you want Space Wolves, play Space Wolves, quit cherry-picking.

Yeah, I play my Space Wolves' Imperial Fists 1st Company. But, I'm not constantly switching back and forth between Codecies. If I pull out a bunch of Drop Pods, people who know me, know I'm playing Space Wolves. If I pull out Scouts/Bikes, people know I'm playing out of Codex Marines.

I - literally - have different models when I swap Codecies. I'm not cherry-picking armies, because I actually have two or three separate armies.

Thanks, but... how many people know how particular companies are painted?

Lots of people. It even says in the Codex, too.

And, if we are here, since when SW or BT use companies or unit-specific paints, anyway?

Since forever.

Space Wolves definitely do (page 80), as do Black Templars (page 50). How many people know how particular companies are painted? Everyone. Or at least they should know.

So... if I take Black Templars, what units out of SW Codex would be out? Librarians? Well, technically, they don't have that, but I see how Priests might not be ok. Veteran Scouts? What else?

Take your Black Templar Codex, take your Space Wolf Codex. Find replacement BT units in the SW Codex. Off the top of my head, Long Fangs, Rune Priests and Thunderwolves are out.

Thee of the best things from Space Wolves, gone. Seriously, just stay with Black Templars. They rock as-is.

paint them their black/red scheme, use red cross instead of BT white as their symbol (as according to Lexicanum theirs is unknown), then use them with SW/BT codex...

How many punches would that bring?

Sounds like a BA/BT Crossover to me. Especially since the Knights of Blood are exactly that. And then there are the Red Templars as well. Specifically, the Iron Lords also have a remarkably similar scheme to Flesh Tearers, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are a bunch of people ask you if you're playing FTs. So, enough punches.

Again, I wouldn't bother. The Black Templars are sweet.

[Wraith]

1st Company; Space Wolves or Dark Angels. Depending on points.
2nd-5th; Any, really. Depending on your preference.
6th; Codex Marines with Captain-on-Bike, or Dark Angels. Depending on Points.
7th; Technically undoable.
8th; Blood Angels
9th; Technically undoable.
10th; I'm going to go with Codex Marines, rather than Blood Angels, simply for access to Land Speeder Storms.

What is undoable about the 7th Company? Both it and the 6th are just a large group of Tactical Squads, except that one is backed up by Land Speeders instead of Bikes.

How many people know how particular companies are painted? Everyone. Or at least they should know.

More importantly, how many know but even care?

In my experience it's only the determindly unsocial Rules Lawyer-type Player who will come up and harangue you for having the wrong colour shoulder-trim, and no one wants to hear what they think even if it's written in the Codex.
Especially if it's written in the Codex, in fact - that we're managing to play the game implies that we are perfectly literate, so we don't need Jiminy Crickett's evil twin chirping over our shoulder all the time as well!

Cherry-picking does not lead to a fluffy and 'friendly' army list, but it is RaW legal. Trixie, you can take as many BT Thunderwolves as you like; so long as you explain it to your opponent before you play and make sure there's no confusion, it's entirely up to you.

Sometimes you just got to try these things, no matter what some far-off stranger on the Internet tells you how THEY would build your army.

[Klose_the_Sith]

More importantly, how many know but even care?

In my experience it's only the determindly unsocial Rules Lawyer-type Player who will come up and harangue you for having the wrong colour shoulder-trim, and no one wants to hear what they think even if it's written in the Codex.
Especially if it's written in the Codex, in fact - that we're managing to play the game implies that we are perfectly literate, so we don't need Jiminy Crickett's evil twin chirping over our shoulder all the time as well!

Oooh! Oooh! I care!

In fact while working on creating my own Chapter, I've currently spent more time on what each Company marking will be than I've spent on things like fluff or list-building.

Then again, I'm just crazy

Although I'll happily play against pretty much anything. The local Eldar player glues cannons to horses and then calls them D-Cannons.

[Cheesegear]

What is undoable about the 7th Company? Both it and the 6th are just a large group of Tactical Squads, except that one is backed up by Land Speeders instead of Bikes.

Not just 'backed up'. All 7th Company can be deployed in Land Speeders (not that they have to, mind). Just as all 6th Company know how to ride Bikes.

More importantly, how many know but even care?

More than enough.

In my experience it's only the determindly unsocial Rules Lawyer-type Player who will come up and harangue you for having the wrong colour shoulder-trim, and no one wants to hear what they think even if it's written in the Codex.

And there are more of these kinds of people that you think. And I'm barely even the worst of them. This above quote is basically what most of the B&C is all about.

Cherry-picking does not lead to a fluffy and 'friendly' army list

This. Like I said, cherry-picking between one game and the next leads to getting punched.

You can take as many BT Thunderwolves as you like; so long as you explain it to your opponent before you play and make sure there's no confusion, it's entirely up to you.

This, too. But less so.

Sometimes you just got to try these things, no matter what some far-off stranger on the Internet tells you how THEY would build your army.

You mean you don't remember me making mini-Dreadnoughts to represent 'Imperial Fist' Thunderwolves and Scouts-riding-Helion Skyboards to represent Fenrisian Wolves?

I stopped using those things for a reason. Because it wasn't just 'somebody on the internet' telling me not to. It's because there were, real, physical people who wouldn't play me because I was a 'dirty power gamer' trying to get Space Wolves out of things (Imperial Fists) that weren't Space Wolves.

GW Staff were even disallowing my army in the store. "Dude, if you want Space Wolves, play Space Wolves. Don't be one of those s*heads who mixes Codecies because it makes you look like a f* dirty player."
Yeah. Two swears in one sentence, from a staff member. In the store. That's how not happy about the situation they were.

I then asked what would happen if I bought actual Space Wolf models and just painted them yellow...They weren't impressed. They eventually let me play Imperial Fist 'Space Wolves', but, only if my models were amazing. And then they also said that Imperial Fists don't ride Thunderwolves, so I couldn't have those.

So, that's why all my 'Space Wolves' are kit-bashed Assault/Tactical Marines, using the running legs, using the Pistol arms from the Assault sprue, cutting off the Pistols for Bolters, putting the Chainsword arms onto the other arm, and including pistol-holsters on all my models.

So, yes, my Grey Hunter models do have Bolters, Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons. And, I've got the 'chained' weapons and the old armours from Black Templar sprues as well, and a bunch of extra Shoulderpads, so that they really do look like Veterans, and I'm not just a munchkin trying to rort the system.

[Wraith]

Oooh! Oooh! I care!

Although I'll happily play against pretty much anything.

The local Eldar player glues cannons to horses and then calls them D-Cannons.

The second comment absolves you of the first. And third is just awesome.

Not just 'backed up'. All 7th Company can pilot Land Speeders (not that they have to, mind). Just as all 6th Company know how to ride Bikes.

Specifics aside, you could still build an army based on this. Couple of Tac. Squads, 3 lots of 3 Land Speeders - 7th Company. Use Codex Dark Angels if you like, and have a Tac Squad-heavy Ravenwing army, for a different twist.

And there are more of these kinds of people that you think. And I'm barely even the worst of them. This above quote is basically what most of the B&C is all about.

You mean you don't remember me making mini-Dreadnoughts to represent 'Imperial Fist' Thunderwolves and Scouts-riding-Helion Skyboards to represent Fenrisian Wolves?

I remember it perfectly well, and please don't think I'm trying to insult, or otherwise criticise you for it

The thing is, it just seems that you're spending a lot of time telling Trixie that there's a lot of things that they CAN'T do because of reasons A, B and C. Yet, truthfully, it can be done if you like - it just won't be as good as X, Y and Z.
Be positive, sir!
We're the nice 40k Forum! We should be encouraging people to try stuff just because it's fun or crazy. Sure, give fair warning that it's not going to be the best or most fun thing you could play, but there's very little that you flat-out CAN'T do in a game, especially if it turns out that you find it fun.

[Cheesegear]

Specifics aside, you could still build an army based on this. Couple of Tac. Squads, 3 lots of 3 Land Speeders - 7th Company.

Well, to me, it's just not the same. I want to field an army of 50 Land Speeders! Plus Sammael. Or some Sammael stand-in. Doable in Spearhead/Apocolypse.

...I just need...39 more Speeders. ...What? I've got 11 Land Speeders. Want to fight about it?

Be positive, sir!
We're the nice 40k Forum! We should be encouraging people to try stuff just because it's fun or crazy.

This is true. But I do recall people telling me, right here on this forum, that I shouldn't do exactly what Trixie is doing. And that my mini-Dread Thunderwolves were a dumb idea and saying "But where do Imperial Fists get mini-Dreads from? Isn't that insulting to real Dreadnoughts?"

...I guess I paved the way, or something.

Sure, give fair warning that it's not going to be the best or most fun thing you could play, but there's very little that you flat-out CAN'T do in a game, especially if it turns out that you find it fun.

Fair warning then, Others might not find it fun.

[lord_khaine]

I stopped using those things for a reason. Because it wasn't just 'somebody on the internet' telling me not to. It's because there were, real, physical people who wouldn't play me because I was a 'dirty power gamer' trying to get Space Wolves out of things (Imperial Fists) that weren't Space Wolves.

GW Staff were even disallowing my army in the store. "Dude, if you want Space Wolves, play Space Wolves. Don't be one of those s*heads who mixes Codecies because it makes you look like a f* dirty player."
Yeah. Two swears in one sentence, from a staff member. In the store. That's how not happy about the situation they were.

I then asked what would happen if I bought actual Space Wolf models and just painted them yellow...They weren't impressed. They eventually let me play Imperial Fist 'Space Wolves', but, only if my models were amazing. And then they also said that Imperial Fists don't ride Thunderwolves, so I couldn't have those.

Wow, what a bunch of asshats, if anyone game me crap about what i called my army, or how i painted it then i would tell them to go &¤¤#%/& themself, and find another place to play.

In my experience it's only the determindly unsocial Rules Lawyer-type Player who will come up and harangue you for having the wrong colour shoulder-trim, and no one wants to hear what they think even if it's written in the Codex.
Especially if it's written in the Codex, in fact - that we're managing to play the game implies that we are perfectly literate, so we don't need Jiminy Crickett's evil twin chirping over our shoulder all the time as well!

I totaly agree with this, and would defend peoples right to paint the models in whatever color they want to my dying breath.

[Cheesegear]

Wow, what a bunch of asshats, if anyone game me crap about what i called my army, or how i painted it then i would tell them to go &¤¤#%/& themself, and find another place to play.

I may have said it before, but I'll say it again;
These are the people I play with. If my views/tactics with certain units are a bit extreme for people on this board to handle, I can only say that, the above is the kind of thing I have to deal with.

Extreme measures yield extreme results. Out of the whole experience, I ended up with a pretty hardcore-looking army because people forced me into making it.

It's basically an enforcement of the WYSIWYG rule when applied to 'Counts As' models. If I want Imperial Fist 'Space Wolves', I have to make them look the part. And I did. And now people will accept my 1st Company, because it's awesome.

Like I said, I'm 'not allowed' to use Thunderwolves. But, I'm me. I like to use alternatives to 600-point super-units. Because I hate having all my eggs in one basket. Space Wolves don't need Thunderwolves. And Trixie doesn't have to make Black Templar 'Space Wolves', because Black Templars kick arse already.
Unlike Codex Marines vs. Space Wolves. Sort of.

Which is what made GW (in my area) so angry when all the Black Templar players were jumping ship to the Blood Angels Codex.
1. Black Templars don't have to. They're already good.
2. Don't be s*.

...The BT players quickly found out that Blood Angels weren't quite as good as they believed and went back to BTs. It turns out Death Company can't hold objectives and cost blood from your nose.

[† Dran †]

Death Company can't hold objectives and cost blood from your nose.

Blood from your nose?? odd choice... As a Ba player from a long time back I dont understand this...


Bt are already awesome.. why would you want to take the ba dex?

[Cheesegear]

Blood from your nose?

You know...You have to 'pay/bleed through the nose' for them...

[Mattarias, King.]

Grey Knight Terminators.

You always know the right thing to say. <3 ( )

...Yes.
And yes.

Hm.. I suppose I'll just have to stick with my Cannoness then. Doubtful I can get up to what I need for the Saint, even with all those termies. Not to mention the cost in currency...

And now to wait for agreeable posts so I can not double-post my Battle Report. It's got Captain Falcon and Dreadnought Ozai in it.

Cheesegear is the man!

Now post it!

[Zorg]

GW Staff were even disallowing my army in the store. "Dude, if you want Space Wolves, play Space Wolves. Don't be one of those s*heads who mixes Codecies because it makes you look like a f* dirty player."
Yeah. Two swears in one sentence, from a staff member. In the store. That's how not happy about the situation they were.

I then asked what would happen if I bought actual Space Wolf models and just painted them yellow...They weren't impressed. They eventually let me play Imperial Fist 'Space Wolves', but, only if my models were amazing. And then they also said that Imperial Fists don't ride Thunderwolves, so I couldn't have those.

Wow, remind me if I'm ever going to play a game in Queensland not to go to that store. You'd think they'd be happy that you were, you know, buying stuff in the store and playing games in the store. What a bunch of douches.

[Cheesegear]

Wow, remind me if I'm ever going to play a game in Queensland not to go to that store. You'd think they'd be happy that you were, you know, buying stuff in the store and playing games in the store. What a bunch of douches.

Indeed. However, management has changed in the last month or so. And it's not really a big deal. But, now I have the super-converted models...So, it's not like I can do anything about it now.

[Fay Graydon]

Wow... Just totalled up my Ork army...
Without counting my Looted Baneblade as a Skullcrusha tank and counting it as a tooled out Battlewagon I can make 1500 - 1800 with ease o.o

And my Space Wolf Army is at 1200... How did I not notice this happening?

[lord_khaine]

Extreme measures yield extreme results. Out of the whole experience, I ended up with a pretty hardcore-looking army because people forced me into making it.

Yeah, but you should have a hardcore-looking army because you want to, or because you like to paint, or maybe even because you think painted models works better than nonpainted, you should not have it because you were forced to have it.

[Closet_Skeleton]

You know...You have to 'pay/bleed through the nose' for them...

Except you don't if you're smart. If you're clever you just treat them as Khorne berzerkers and give them a rhino and a chaplain/reclusiarch. Then they're cost effective. Take 15 of them and a reclusiarch in a land raider crusader if you want to put lots of points into them, they don't need more than one thunder hammer just like every other unit and when you're 4 attacks S5 WS5 with a reroll to hit and to wound you don't need power weapons.

Just make sure they're your only point sink and don't try and take some terminators and libriarian dreads at the same time.

Spoiler

Show

HQ
Reclusiarch
melta bombs
135 points

Elites
2 Sanguinary Priests with bikes
170 points

Troops
12 Deathcompany
1 thunder hammer
270 points
Land Raider Crusader
250 points

Full tactical squad
plasma gun, plasma cannon
185 points

Full tactical squad
plasma gun, plasma cannon
185 points

Full Assault Squad
Melta bombs, Power sword and hand flamer, 2 flamers
230 points

Full Assault Squad
Thunder Hammer, 2 meltaguns
240 points

total: 1500 points

Gives you an okay list. Just one that doesn't give any super special advantage over a normal marine list.

Ah, I remember now...Not shooting. If you're in Assault with a bunch of mooks and not your opponent's HQ, if your opponent doesn't specifically allocate to your character or the unit, then, you should allocate all hits to the character, and leave the unit fine.

Except you can't do that either because you can't make un-allocated attacks. If you just roll attacks without declaring who they're against then the other player can just allocate them against the ground if he wants to (in interest of sportsmanship they'd just be assumed to be against the unit). An independant character can only be hit by attacks from adjacent models or models within 2 inches on an adjacent model and in many cases that isn't every enemy who scored a wound.

[i see u]

Hey Guys

I'm starting to collect a Chaos Space Marine army and I bought the battle force and a havoc squad + Daemon Prince and wanted everyone's thoughts on what I should buy next

Thanks

[lord_khaine]

Hey Guys

I'm starting to collect a Chaos Space Marine army and I bought the battle force and a havoc squad + Daemon Prince and wanted everyone's thoughts on what I should buy next

Thanks

I recomend Sick Marines, Noisy marines, 1k Sons and Crazy Khorne bastards!

(Warning, take advice on own risk, i have no idea what im talking about)

[Trixie]

I'm starting to collect a Chaos Space Marine army and I bought the battle force and a havoc squad + Daemon Prince and wanted everyone's thoughts on what I should buy next

How brutal answer do you want?

Yes. The Allies rules are your friend.

If there's one army that shouldn't be allowed to ally with DH, it's WH.

And, seriously, if you want GKT, why not take DH over WH?

I don't know. Something stupid.

Legit reasons are stupid?

Such as? Builds that aren't for playing Black Templars anyway?

Such as? I'll give you examples, but generally, any BT army that wants to shoot even once instead of mindlessly whacking their foes. They're not Berserkers or Blood Angels, you don't want to fight in CC with BT almost half of the time.

That's exactly what you shouldn't do. Where did the Black Templars get their Thunderwolves from? If you want Space Wolves, play Space Wolves, quit cherry-picking.

Not Thunderwolves. Quad/Buggy Cavalry. Larger cousins of Cold Ones. Ice Panthers (converted from Elf Lions). The possibilities are endless.

Yeah, I play my Space Wolves' Imperial Fists 1st Company. But, I'm not constantly switching back and forth between Codecies. If I pull out a bunch of Drop Pods, people who know me, know I'm playing Space Wolves. If I pull out Scouts/Bikes, people know I'm playing out of Codex Marines.

And this is different between placing on table Rune Priests/Long Fangs and Sword Brethren/Emperor's Champion...

How exactly?

I - literally - have different models when I swap Codecies. I'm not cherry-picking armies, because I actually have two or three separate armies.

Which is all fine and good, but I can't afford two armies. I don't mean money; I mean time required to paint and tidy two armies, since I don't even have full one yet. I'm fine with one-two extra squads/HQs, I'm not insane enough to buy gazillion figures instead of buying-as-I-can-paint them. At the same time, I want to have a choice, if it turns out I like playing the other Codex more after 20 games, which I won't know if I don't play both of them.

And seriously, look at BT Tactical Squad and Grey Hunters - they have literally the same wargear, swords/pistols. In what way exactly I can't use one squad for both units? It even says in the C:SW you don't have to turn them into Christmas Trees by gluing on all their gear (indeed, they advice to keep Grey Hunters and their lesser, assault brethren interchangeable by doing just that).

Fine, if some WYSIWYG nazi turns up, I'll magnetize bolters to their packs when they're GH's, but I don't know why I should do even that.

Lots of people. It even says in the Codex, too.

Pfffft. Let's look at it from the point of view of such esthète you mentioned:

A) You paint your Terminator's 1st Company white, Scouts as 10th company, Tacticals 4th, etc. Result: melange of different colors that doesn't look good, army with not real uniformity, and that's even ignoring the fact that Ultramarines are pretty much the only well-known Chapter that paints the troops that way.

Response? Lolwut, you noob! You charrypick companies! Termies with Scouts! Wut! When I was your age, we played Codex companies, and liked it! So what they're illegal now! Noob!

B) You give your army uniform paint sheme. It looks nice, but...

Response? Lolwut, you noob! You have 10th Company Termies! Wut! And you still charrypick companies! Termies with Scouts! Wut! Noob!

Since forever.

Space Wolves definitely do (page 80), as do Black Templars (page 50). How many people know how particular companies are painted? Everyone. Or at least they should know.

Lolwut. I looked at BT Codex, page 50, to see if memory was good; it turns out it was. You know what is written here?

Every single BT Neophyte, Initiate, Champion, Sword Brethren, etc. in the Glalaxy is painted the exact same way.

The only way they might differ, is the Crusade badge that might, I repeat: might be painted on them. Which, anyway, if you look on the real size BT Marine given as an example, is impossible to do on something the size of GW mini, unless you're chipmunk jeweler on steroids. Look where is is painted, how small that is, and how complex the pattern was. Out of curiosity, I flipped through entire C:BT, looking for these badges, and you know how much I found?

One. This is it. One Nimbosa Crusade badge, painted on Rhino (so it was 5 times larger than one that would be on Marine) and yet, it was still extremely dumbed down compared to real pattern - and it was still uneven and blurry. If 'Eavy Metal mastahs that can paint dot inside the dot in the Hormagaunt's eye can't do it, I certainly won't try until I gain much more experience.

Ok, arguably, there was second badge, Armageddon one, on Attack bike and Predator (also 5x larger), but these photos were picked from Armageddon campaign, are also dumbed down and uneven, and were painted as promo-even so they don't exactly count.

Take your Black Templar Codex, take your Space Wolf Codex. Find replacement BT units in the SW Codex. Off the top of my head, Long Fangs, Rune Priests and Thunderwolves are out.

[shrug] fine. By the way, I don't see why Long Fangs, seeing how BT have almost exact replacement, but okay.

Thee of the best things from Space Wolves, gone. Seriously, just stay with Black Templars. They rock as-is.

Except for a few problems which will follow in second post.

By the way, I hope the post didn't offend you, my rage (if there is one) is targeted only on these esthètic idiots.

[Cheesegear]

And, seriously, if you want GKT, why not take DH over WH?

Because Witch Hunters are generally better. As their base models don't cost 25 Points each, and generate faith. Which is amazing. And then you can take GKTs anyway, because your other choice is Celestians.
...Or Assassins. Which are reasonable. Depending on which one you take.

I'll give you examples, but generally, any BT army that wants to shoot even once instead of mindlessly whacking their foes.

Again, that's something that isn't suited to the Black Templars' play-style. They can't really hold objectives, since if they get shot at, they run out of cover and/or off an objective.

If you want to play a shooty army, don't play Black Templars. That's, really, all there is to it. I believe 'I want to have a shooty army' falls under the purview of 'Builds that aren't suited to playing Black Templars'.

I wish you could play a shooty BTs army, but, you really can't. That's just how the Codex works.

Quad/Buggy Cavalry.

This, I'll give you. So long as they don't actually look like Attack Bikes 'with bits tacked on', otherwise, they should be Attack Bikes. 'Count As' models aren't for the faint-of-modelling.

Larger cousins of Cold Ones. Ice Panthers (converted from Elf Lions). The possibilities are endless.

These, though. Are bizarre. If your opponents are cool with it, sure, Black Templars riding cats sounds great...If, not extremely bizarre.

and that's even ignoring the fact that Ultramarines are pretty much the only well-known Chapter that paints the troops that way.

Insignuim Astartes and How To Paint Space Marines proves you dead wrong. Insignium Asatartes was even given a limited reprint about a month back as it's so popular, and HtPSMs is still sold today. So, I know "HEY, THOSE ARE 3RD ED BOOKS" isn't entirely a valid argument.

Response? Lolwut, you noob! You charrypick companies! Termies with Scouts! Wut! When I was your age, we played Codex companies, and liked it! So what they're illegal now! Noob!

Except that in Sons of Dorn, that is exactly what happens. And is exactly what Reserve Companies are for. Goes double for me, because, well, Imperial Fists. I have a specific precedent.
Having my Devastators with blue shoulder trim (IMO), looks no worse than Blood Angel Assault Marines with yellow helmets.

And only has ever gotten the reaction
"What's with the blue shoulders?"
"They're 9th Company."
"Oh. Cool."

And, even when I tried to have specific, 1st Company Devastators, you, specifically, Trixie said it was a terrible idea, and that I wasn't allowed to do it. You also didn't like my Veteran Bikes idea either.
...It's not like I'm trying to have Imperial Fists riding cats or anything (), I'm just trying to give all Marines an equal chance at 'Veteran' status, which was actually canon up until 5th Edition and Matt Ward.

You have 10th Company Termies! Wut! And you still charrypick companies! Termies with Scouts! Wut! Noob!

Again. Sons of Dorn. In any case, the Codex Astartes says that 'one Company shall wear Terminator Armour', but, doesn't exactly say what Company it should be. If you have a homebrew Chapter, and want your Terminators to be the 7/8/10th Company (for whatever reason), you can do so.

By the way, I don't see why Long Fangs, seeing how BT have almost exact replacement, but okay.

Which? Black Templars don't get Devastators. I had to check my Codex for that since, hey, I've been wrong before.

By the way, I hope the post didn't offend you, my rage (if there is one) is targeted only on these esthètic idiots.

Not so much. But, the problem for me, lies with that I think you may not have read the posts which come after the post you're quoting where I give a few reasons, and then even backpedal on some issues where I know I'm wrong...
If you have read all the posts...Then, well, I don't know if you have or not. But, some of the after-posts may or may not make me out as a bad guy, or, at least not all my intentions are designed to crush good ideas. Yes. I don't think I ever said it was a bad idea. Just...Hard to understand. On many levels.

[Trixie]

Since forever.

By the way, my comment 'since when' was also directed at 'since when SW or BT use companies' as they're the two Chapters that never used companies

Sounds like a BA/BT Crossover to me. Especially since the Knights of Blood are exactly that. And then there are the Red Templars as well. Specifically, the Iron Lords also have a remarkably similar scheme to Flesh Tearers, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are a bunch of people ask you if you're playing FTs. So, enough punches.

[sigh] Which is why I settled on them (and because they're IMHO the best-looking Chapter in C:SM) is because they're so little-known I won't find idiots telling me the sign on badge is, according to Codex, 0.02 mm too thick

Which is a shame, as I really like looks of both Wolves and Templars, but having a nice chapter that can be substituted for both without someone telling me that Marines can't have both leopard (not wolf) skins and Maltese crosses on the same time as bling, or telling me I don't have Arseend Crusade marks painted right.

Plus, their color scheme fits all five major SM Codices without too much trouble.

More importantly, how many know but even care?

My FLGS Manager: "Buy your figs here or in my parent company, and you can paint them in pink stripes all I care."

Cherry-picking does not lead to a fluffy and 'friendly' army list, but it is RaW legal. Trixie, you can take as many BT Thunderwolves as you like; so long as you explain it to your opponent before you play and make sure there's no confusion, it's entirely up to you.

You know, I wonder what the hell cherrypicking even means. What's exactly stopping ******** that has problem with BT cavalry (not that I would use that, I like my armies mostly fluffy) from declaring "you can't take Scouts with Termies, hurr hurr! There, paragraph 111 of page 638 of my SM Omnibus declares Codex Chapters never use them at the same time, durr!"?

Or, hell, even declaring in similar way they idiot did to CG: "You want to have Shrike in your Imperial Fists army? GTFO, noob! Go play Raven Guard already! Hurr hurr Charrypicking durr!"

And yes, I know there is rule stating you can have their clones under other names/banners. Which is why I wonder.

And there are more of these kinds of people that you think. And I'm barely even the worst of them. This above quote is basically what most of the B&C is all about.

The same BC with huge DIY Chapter section, and with dozens of guides how to convert things to other things?

Last time I checked, they showcased at least 20 counts-as-Thunderwolves in various threads, most of them out of SW Chapter.

This. Like I said, cherry-picking between one game and the next leads to getting punched.

Sooo... The only way to legally play two armies in which 90% of the units is identical down to WYSIWYG is to have two copies?

Why it started to sound more like a club of elitist douchebags instead of hobby?

I understand why Librarians in BT Chapter is a bad idea, but while Codex: BT outright states they don't have psykers, it never states they don't have cavalry-like unit, with them being knight-like close combat force it would make even less sense if they never tried cavalry. Their units can have counter-attack. You can model Emperor's Champion (which, sadly, is better EC than the EC) as Lone Wolf. They experiment with new units as LR Crusader clearly shows. Virtually everything fits...

So, the only thing that doesn't fit is the tight mind of some douche?

You mean you don't remember me making mini-Dreadnoughts to represent 'Imperial Fist' Thunderwolves and Scouts-riding-Helion Skyboards to represent Fenrisian Wolves?

The only thing I would object here is that Dread doesn't exactly evoke 'speedy unit' image nor it doesn't have Toughness, but if you want to put them on table, fine.

So, what was exactly wrong with that? Douchism of some guys?

I stopped using those things for a reason. Because it wasn't just 'somebody on the internet' telling me not to. It's because there were, real, physical people who wouldn't play me because I was a 'dirty power gamer' trying to get Space Wolves out of things (Imperial Fists) that weren't Space Wolves.

Rrrright. So, you're a dirty power gamer if you take substandard force with custom-made units fitting into the theme of your army, but you aren't one if you have badly painted Wolves using the latest broken net list... Do I get this right? And this makes sense... how exactly?

If there's someone that should be doing the punching, it is you.

GW Staff were even disallowing my army in the store. "Dude, if you want Space Wolves, play Space Wolves. Don't be one of those s*heads who mixes Codecies because it makes you look like a f* dirty player."

"Dude, if you want Shrike, play Raven Guard."

If that was some random idiot, ok, everyone can have an opinion, but if that was a shop staff saying things to paying customer (which, IIRC, has multiple armies, and is highly regarded in local club, as you said) - then he is an idiot. I'd never buy a single thing in this store on his watch, maybe I'd do even more.

Yeah. Two swears in one sentence, from a staff member. In the store. That's how not happy about the situation they were.

Right, but as soon as you bought new models, they were happy to shut up. And it is supposed to be normal behavior of shop owner?

I then asked what would happen if I bought actual Space Wolf models and just painted them yellow...They weren't impressed. They eventually let me play Imperial Fist 'Space Wolves', but, only if my models were amazing. And then they also said that Imperial Fists don't ride Thunderwolves, so I couldn't have those.

First, I agree with above statements - you should do your force the way you want.

Second, please define 'amazing'. Is is 'custom-made, exquisitely painted mini'... which, in my opinion, well-done mini-Dread would definitely be, or... 'something done the way some idiot clerk wants you to'?

Because the latter is not.

So, that's why all my 'Space Wolves' are kit-bashed Assault/Tactical Marines, using the running legs, using the Pistol arms from the Assault sprue, cutting off the Pistols for Bolters, putting the Chainsword arms onto the other arm, and including pistol-holsters on all my models.

They didn't order you to make them using actual SW sprues? Blasphemy!

By the way, actual SW sprue doesn't have enough pistol holders. I wonder, from where you get them? Did they sold them to you, too? Dude, to me, that's extortion, not 'awesome' as you try to say it.

You know, my FLGS manager did cursed guys buying outside of his shop... but he put it in this way:

"You know, all these idiots buying damn boxes in England doesn't realize that if they keep doing so, they might save a few damn bucks, but the country's net of shops and whole WH40K scene might collapse... and I wonder, where they will play then? Who will organize tournaments? Did these idiots thought about that?"

And with this, I might well sympathize, with an idiot telling people to change things he doesn't like because he has a bit of power I won't.

So, yes, my Grey Hunter models do have Bolters, Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons.

Which even Codex tells you don't have to do.

And, I've got the 'chained' weapons and the old armours from Black Templar sprues as well, and a bunch of extra Shoulderpads, so that they really do look like Veterans, and I'm not just a munchkin trying to rort the system.

You know, wanting your minis to look good is one thing, caving to demands of an idiot who apparently never saw illustrations in Codices he is dealing with daily is completely another

And third is just awesome.

Is it some joke I don't get?

Specifics aside, you could still build an army based on this. Couple of Tac. Squads, 3 lots of 3 Land Speeders - 7th Company. Use Codex Dark Angels if you like, and have a Tac Squad-heavy Ravenwing army, for a different twist.

Precisely. Which is why I also objected wo CG's statement you can't have a squad of veteran bikers in C:SM.

The thing is, it just seems that you're spending a lot of time telling Trixie that there's a lot of things that they CAN'T do because of reasons A, B and C. Yet, truthfully, it can be done if you like - it just won't be as good as X, Y and Z.
Be positive, sir!

And reasons A and C seem to be 'because I told you so!' of some douche in a shop in the other end of the world I will probably never see.

We're the nice 40k Forum! We should be encouraging people to try stuff just because it's fun or crazy.

Yup

These are the people I play with. If my views/tactics with certain units are a bit extreme for people on this board to handle, I can only say that, the above is the kind of thing I have to deal with.

So, the whole issue is, they don't like you owning them, so they try to pay you back the only way they can? Whining?

Extreme measures yield extreme results. Out of the whole experience, I ended up with a pretty hardcore-looking army because people forced me into making it.

The only issue I have this army is just as legal as your old one, and probably as well looking, unless old one was really lazy.

I don't know if I would play something others forced me to do, regardless of how well it looked.

It's basically an enforcement of the WYSIWYG rule when applied to 'Counts As' models. If I want Imperial Fist 'Space Wolves', I have to make them look the part. And I did. And now people will accept my 1st Company, because it's awesome.

Again, define 'awesome'. To me, it looks 'something any local fanboy can no longer whine about as I never make something half that good'.

I wonder, did these people whine at 'Eavy Metal conversions, too, as it is sometimes obvious they modeled it after unit from another Codex it ended up in?

Like I said, I'm 'not allowed' to use Thunderwolves. But, I'm me. I like to use alternatives to 600-point super-units. Because I hate having all my eggs in one basket. Space Wolves don't need Thunderwolves. And Trixie doesn't have to make Black Templar 'Space Wolves', because Black Templars kick arse already.

So, the lesson is, don't play Black Templars if you happen to like them but have C:SW?

And Shrike can be taken only in fully painted Raven Guard army?

Both whining points of view so far seem to be of the same legality.

Unlike Codex Marines vs. Space Wolves. Sort of.

Care to enlighten me?

Which is what made GW (in my area) so angry when all the Black Templar players were jumping ship to the Blood Angels Codex.
1. Black Templars don't have to. They're already good.
2. Don't be s*.

Jumping ship (and to a flavor-of-the-month-army) is a bit different than picking two old Codices and building an army so you could use both of them, don't you think?

It turns out Death Company can't hold objectives and cost blood from your nose.

Right, and Sword Brethren and BT Assault squads, which happen to cost even more, have less special rules, and can't take either, don't suck, because...?

Yeah, but you should have a hardcore-looking army because you want to, or because you like to paint, or maybe even because you think painted models works better than nonpainted, you should not have it because you were forced to have it.

Exactly.

Which is why I would have one well painted army I can try in various ways, than two unpainted piles of messy plastic.

But I guess some people would whine less then.

I can consider getting second after I have the first one completed.

You know, I wanted to ask here if I can mix SW/BT bling, using wolf skulls as trophies taken from xenos, furs painted after big cats (no SW heads, though) and Maltese crosses BT have on the same unit, but the answer seems to be no alredy from the amount of whining that would get.

[Cheesegear]

By the way, my comment 'since when' was also directed at 'since when SW or BT use companies' as they're the two Chapters that never used companies

Ah. I'm also certain you used the words 'squad markings' as well.

Sooo... The only way to legally play two armies in which 90% of the units is identical down to WYSIWYG is to have two copies?

Apparently. Yes.
I'm not the only one who has different Marine armies.

it never states [Black Templars] don't have cavalry-like unit, with them being knight-like close combat force it would make even less sense if they never tried cavalry.

"It doesn't say I can't." Is a pretty murky argument. "Common Sense is not RAW" comes to mind.

You can model Emperor's Champion (which, sadly, is better EC than the EC) as Lone Wolf.

Make it a Wolf Guard Battle Leader. Lone Wolves aren't very good. Because, Tactics in the Tactics Thread...Somewhere, at least.

Rrrright. So, you're a dirty power gamer if you take substandard force with custom-made units fitting into the theme of your army, but you aren't one if you have badly painted Wolves using the latest broken net list...

And now you've just hit the nail on the head, as to why everyone walks away scratching their head after talking to a GW Employee. Sometimes they just don't make any sense at all. On the other hand, it can just be a way of getting you to buy more models, which, I suppose did work on me, in the end.

The thing that gets me, is that in retrospect, I don't mind at all. My army looks great now. If GW hadn't forced me into it, I'd just have yellow-painted Ultramarines, and I wouldn't feel anywhere near as proud of them as I do now.

If there's someone that should be doing the punching, it is you.

Probably. You're not wrong, here.

Right, but as soon as you bought new models, they were happy to shut up. And it is supposed to be normal behavior of shop owner?

Apparently, if I use the same model in two different armies, GW gets angry at me. If I spend boatloads of cash for duplicate models and convert one ever so slightly, GW is happy.
...Because I spend money.

Second, please define 'amazing'. Is is 'custom-made, exquisitely painted mini'... which, in my opinion, well-done mini-Dread would definitely be

Lorn has an APU in the first page of the models thread. That, and this were my inspiration. Like the bastard children of Sentinels and Dreadnoughts.

So, the whole issue is, they don't like you owning them, so they try to pay you back the only way they can? Whining?

Yes. Such is the life of a skilled lucky gamer.

The only issue I have this army is just as legal as your old one, and probably as well looking, unless old one was really lazy.

The 'old ones' are straight-up Imperial Fists out of the box/Codex. 2nd Company. Sure. But, not '1st Company' worthy, and definitely not as cool looking as Space Wolf models.

My current models...Imperial Fists shoulder pads on every single model. The 'beaky' helmets are actually attached to armour with studded shoulder pads and greaves, including the 'Corvus' pattern right (not left) shoulder.
All my squad sergeants are made from, or use some parts from the Commander box. There are the aforementioned Black Templar pieces to get me Mk III and Mk IV armour.
My Auric Knights won a modelling competition (but not painting). My 'Mark of the Wulfen' is a Deathwatch Pad, because they're just that hardcore. etc.

So, the lesson is, don't play Black Templars if you happen to like them but have C:SW?

That's not what I said at all. I said if you like Black Templars, play Black Templars. Because there's no real need to switch out. Unless you want a shooty army. Which I can't help you with there. Black Templars don't work that way.

Right, and Sword Brethren and BT Assault squads, which happen to cost even more, have less special rules, and can't take either, don't suck, because...?

Sword Brethren get Infiltrate, Counter Attack or Furious Charge. For free. Are affected by the Emperor's Champion's Vows, and run forward when shot at.

About the only thing they're missing is Feel No Pain.

BT Assault Squads all get Storm Shields. Yes. I know they're 'the bad kind', but, for 3 points, it's still worth it. Entire BT Assault Squads also get to take Melta Bombs for 2 points each. Are also affected by the Emperor's Champion and run forwards when shot at.

You know, I wanted to ask here if I can mix SW/BT bling, using wolf skulls as trophies taken from xenos, furs painted after big cats (no SW heads, though) and Maltese crosses BT have on the same unit, but the answer seems to be no alredy from the amount of whining that would get.

What? No. That's not what I've said at all. You can model your things however you want. It's the rule-set that goes along with said models and how you can (or can't) justify it is what will get you into trouble. Or, at least that's what I've meant this entire time.

[Klose_the_Sith]

You know, my FLGS manager did cursed guys buying outside of his shop... but he put it in this way:

"You know, all these idiots buying damn boxes in England doesn't realize that if they keep doing so, they might save a few damn bucks, but the country's net of shops and whole WH40K scene might collapse... and I wonder, where they will play then? Who will organize tournaments? Did these idiots thought about that?"

And with this, I might well sympathize, with an idiot telling people to change things he doesn't like because he has a bit of power I won't.

My problem with this attitude is where you draw the line. I buy all my paint, dice and accessories from Australian stores, as well as most of my minis.

However, I'm too poor to be able to get everything I need at the exorbitant Australian price (getting things at 50% off is saving more than a few bucks) and so I've bought some things from Maelstrom Games and probably will again in future.

Is that so bad?

What about the people who make their own scenery with materials not bought in a hobby store? Isn't that achieving the same result?

Is it some joke I don't get?

The 'joke' is simply that he proxies D-Cannons by glueing guns to horses. It's more out-and-out bizarre than sheer hilarity, but some good laughs are had whenever they get kills.

[Zorg]

Insignium Asatartes was even given a limited reprint about a month back as it's so popular, and HtPSMs is still sold today. So, I know "HEY, THOSE ARE 3RD ED BOOKS" isn't entirely a valid argument.

It's likely it was re-printed as a test run before it went into Print-on Demand. BL probably pumped out a big run to make sure it was all working properly then shipped them out to stores.


Cool bat-rep, but when do we get to see pics of these majestic purple and yellow armies of yours? All this describing of the effort you go into is making me curious.


edit: "Apparently, if I use the same model in two different armies, GW gets angry at me. If I spend boatloads of cash for duplicate models and convert one ever so slightly, GW is happy.
...Because I spend money."

I think it's just your store (or Queensland ), as my local stores are all cool with swapping codexes and such so I've played Ultra, BA and SW with my guys with no problems, and bought more stuff as a result. If they'd said 'you must buy a new army to use a new codex in the store' I'd be 'ok, give me a full refund on my codex, and get my your area manager's phone number'.
Maybe I'm just lucky though.

[Wraith]

Because Witch Hunters are generally better. As their base models don't cost 25 Points each, and generate faith. Which is amazing. And then you can take GKTs anyway, because your other choice is Celestians.
...Or Assassins. Which are reasonable. Depending on which one you take.

More importantly, the WH special rules work. Go ahead - try it. Get a Witch Hunter army, generate a whole bunch of Faith and lay the smackdown on your nearest opponent. Fun and satisfying.

Then rock up to a table with a Daemonhunter Army and insist that your opponent takes -1 Ld on their Daemonic Instability Tes-... Oh wait, never mind....

You know, my FLGS manager did cursed guys buying outside of his shop... but he put it in this way:

"You know, all these idiots buying damn boxes in England doesn't realize that if they keep doing so, they might save a few damn bucks, but the country's net of shops and whole WH40K scene might collapse... and I wonder, where they will play then? Who will organize tournaments? Did these idiots thought about that?"

And with this, I might well sympathize, with an idiot telling people to change things he doesn't like because he has a bit of power I won't.

I hasten to point out that your FLGS manager is a moron. Yes, Rogue Traders sell GW at slightly cheaper prices.... But who does he think they buy them off in the first place?

GW are famous for making massive mark-ups on their plastic range, of which they are trying to switch to entirely. Once they've left a GW store in whatever form - to another store or direct to a customer - GW has made their profit.

Good rule of thumb: Listen to the staff in your local store, and then disregard whatever you hear if you cannot find a direct and reliable independant source. Their job is to sell you stuff through whatever mean necessary, and scare-stories about Rogue Traders bringing an end to Citadel Miniatures if you dare step off the One True Path is the least of what they will do.

I think it's just your store (or Queensland ), as my local stores are all cool with swapping codexes and such so I've played Ultra, BA and SW with my guys with no problems, and bought more stuff as a result. If they'd said 'you must buy a new army to use a new codex in the store' I'd be 'ok, give me a full refund on my codex, and get my your area manager's phone number'.
Maybe I'm just lucky though.

I think we've pretty much established that Cheesegear's local store is run by the table-top gaming equivalent of Grammar Nazi's

For further example, I live in Nottingham - my local sore is GW's flagship branch in England, after Warhammer World itself.
Their only rules regarding this matter? Your army must be at least base-coated (no mention of 'appropriate' colours) and you must have your own Codex to play with your chosen army (rather than 'borrow' one off the shelf). If any store in the world was going to be super-strict you'd probably expect this one to be, but apparently GW Queensland is just a Black Hole for good manners and sense of humour.... Our Beloved Sensei Cheesegear not-with-standing, of course!

Hey Guys

I'm starting to collect a Chaos Space Marine army and I bought the battle force and a havoc squad + Daemon Prince and wanted everyone's thoughts on what I should buy next

Thanks

You have a pretty reasonable army there, though as with all of the Battle Sets it's quite light on the Troops Choices. Troops win games, so I'd recommend buying another box of those guys so that you can have at least two full-sized Squads, rather than the one-and-a-half you have now.

There's various types of Troop you can choose - Khorne Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, Noise Marines - but until you've got a good grip on the game and know which direction you want to take your army, I'd recommend just the basic Chaos Space Marines. Those guys will serve you perfectly well, and you can always repaint them if you later decide you have no use for them.

Now, go play some games before you decide what else to buy. It's always a good idea to start small and add the things that you want as you need hem, rather than buying a whole pile of stuff and later deciding that you don;t want most of it.