The thread that changed name one last time, with style. (Random Banter #144)

[Anuan]

Any Playgrounders in Seattle wanna hang out for a few hours on probably the 2nd 7th of September?

[Thufir]

It's dawn though. Granted, there're more dayish parts of the day than dawn, but it's dawn when the day is shiny and new and hasn't provided anything at all towards making it a disappointing day.

And I've started reading it. Interesting, but could be better written. Vetinari would never say 'sure as hell'.

Yeah, it is a bit weird when that happens.
My dad's fine with meetups and the sort; he trusts me. Mum trusts me, but noone else.
But she's going to have to start getting used to it soon. I've had her on training wheels since I ioined this site, sooner or later she's got to start cycling on her lonesome.

Well, at this point you've not only travelled a long-distance to meet these strange internet people for a weekend, you've also shared a room with one! *Le gasp* If she doesn't get used to it I imagine that could be a problem for her.

My folks would probably be a bit disappointed if they knew how much of my information I've been letting slip. Hell, I don't think they even know I have a Facebook, or would approve. I figure my judgement is good enough to side with the right group of secret murderers on the internet, namely those who would roll a die to see how many times they should stab you.

And then roll another one to see if each stab actually hits or if you dodge it. Then a 3rd to see if you survive.

Yes.

Pfft. What kind of person goes to bed at midnight?

[Kneenibble]

Oh, also:

No, there's hockey and then there's field hockey.

Thank you. "Ice hockey" is redundant in these parts.

No offense, madamoiselle.

[Phase]

Any Playgrounders in Seattle wanna hang out for a few hours on probably the 2nd of September?

This is an oddly specific question for an oddly specific date... I fit neither of the criteria, though.

Pfft. What kind of person goes to bed at midnight?

A sinister, devious person with sinister, devious intent.

[Anuan]

This is an oddly specific question for an oddly specific date... I fit neither of the criteria, though.

Bummer, I woulda liked hanging with Phase.

[Coidzor]

Any Playgrounders in Seattle wanna hang out for a few hours on probably the 2nd of September?

I think Keld Denar and the Cycoris/Deary Combo are the two closest playgrounders to Seattle that have revealed their physical avatars of destruction to the game board.

[Zeb The Troll]

That's it.
I just always thought it was a "how much" word. You can't say "I have fifteen data" in the same way you can't say "I have fifteen rice".

The difference here being that "data" actually has a singular form which is different than the collective form. You can't say "rices". The plural of rice is rice. The singular of rice is rice. The singular of data is datum.

Furthermore, data, by definition, is a collection of information, not a single bit of information. This would imply to me, again, that "data are" is the grammatically correct, even if not the most often used, structure.

[Anuan]

Hm. Thing is, I'm stopping in Seattle for a few hours before getting to fly out to stay with cycoris.

[Rawhide]

The difference here being that "data" actually has a singular form which is different than the collective form. You can't say "rices". The plural of rice is rice. The singular of rice is rice. The singular of data is datum.

Furthermore, data, by definition, is a collection of information, not a single bit of information. This would imply to me, again, that "data are" is the grammatically correct, even if not the most often used, structure.

The word "data" has been naturalised into the English language and is now treated as a singular form, much like "information", in most instances. "Datum" is generally not used except in some rate circumstances (such as maths and science).

http://nxg.me.uk/note/2005/singular-data/
http://www.answers.com/topic/data
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/le...r/page58.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data

[Superglucose]

Well, I'm a girl in Britland.
Every girl (and presumably every boy too, but apparently not all schools teach hockey) is taught to play hockey in secondary school if not earlier.

Ah. I've found the difficulty here...

And there you have it. A geek from birth will inevitably play a tabletop game or similar at some point. I iust happen to enioy playing a very violent sport as well.

You have no idea how rare it is. All of my friends enjoy, in order, sitting on the couch, sitting on the couch, sleeping, sitting in a chair, sleeping, playing D&D, sitting on the couch. It's lame and boring because I'd love nothing more than to jump out, grab some pads, and play some football.

I'm sure you know how great it feels when your muscles just start... they have this power and energy in them and they're almost begging you to use them.

My parents still fail to understand how it's possible to have really good friends that I've:
a) never met -
(i) because we don't go to the same place of education/place of association
(ii) because they live in a different part of the country.
(iii) because they live in a different country
(iv) because they live on a different continent
b) have only met once or twice
c) will more than likely never meet
d) don't even know their real life names
e) or where they live
and stay up to ridicuous hours talking to them.

My family makes fun of me for it.

Where on earth would a girl play ice hockey at school. Let alone in Britland?!
The nearest ice rink to me is some fifty miles away and present for two months of the year.
Besides, there's hockey and there's ice hockey.

1) My cousin (female) got a scholaship to play ice hockey, so there's that
2) As was said before, there's hockey and there's field hockey.

It's dawn though. Granted, there're more dayish parts of the day than dawn, but it's dawn when the day is shiny and new and hasn't provided anything at all towards making it a disappointing day.

*snort*

If only that were true...

[Dragonrider]

Shouldnt that make her feel older?

Well when THEY have a daughter my age, THEY will be nearly fifty. SHE is 42.

I think Keld Denar and the Cycoris/Deary Combo are the two closest playgrounders to Seattle that have revealed their physical avatars of destruction to the game board.

Isn't Raistlin1040 in Seattle? Or am I thinking someone else?

[Coidzor]

Well when THEY have a daughter my age, THEY will be nearly fifty. SHE is 42.



Isn't Raistlin1040 in Seattle? Or am I thinking someone else?

Dunno. Never had his hand tipped that way towards me.

Heck... your mom's only 42? Mine are in their upper 50s and I'm only 2.5ish years older than you. Why, that's young enough to still be attractive if she's taken care of herself.

[Superglucose]

This is a very good point.

The seventh book is the only one I haven't reread yet. Partly because I used to reread them to finish the previous one right before the next one was released, and there are no more! But also because there was too much stuff going on in seven that I didn't like.

I did have a problem with some of the people who died, I think it was a bit much at times, especially really important sympathetic characters dying "off-screen".

Spoiler

Show

I'm looking at you, Tonks and Lupin.

But my biggest problem was Harry's vision of Dumbledore.

Spoiler

Show

It just seemed false to me. I think if a character dies and returns in something, they shouldn't remember what happened while they were dead (like Roy!). If he wasn't actually dead, then it was just a hallucination, and it meant nothing! Rowling has said it was to allow Dumbledore a last chance to explain himself, now Harry's learned all this not-very-flattering stuff about him. But I think there were more graceful ways to do it: Dumbledore has a headmaster portrait, he could have left a will (he didn't know he would be around to explain it all to Harry), he could have left him a magical message of a ghost-like echo of himself or something.

I think mostly a lot of my problem with seven was how little we saw of the castle. My favourite bits were always the ensemble stuff, all the characters in Hogwarts.

My objections to book 7 were almost entirely stylistic. After all, who can fight against the Elder Wand, the Death Stick, the Wand of DESTINY! *projectile vomit* And the way she tried to be tolkein? No, man... Tolkein was only able to pull that particular kind of boring off because he knew how to paint a picture with words in a way that Rowling does not.

Then about a half-dozen silly little nitpicks such as Lupin's sudden cowardice that was ridiculously out of character and even more his sudden and instant 180 turn around. Lupin and Tonk's deaths off screen were definitely a part of that. But it all pales, pales in comparison with the tripe that was the 5th book. The absurd level of "um, er, wut?" that went through my head on the first and subsequent readings of the book.

I had to go back and reread the first four to figure out if I merely liked them from the rosey-glasses of youth. Turns out that no, no, those were actually good books

[Trobby]

...

....:o...

...

Oy...four pages of random banter and I can't come up with a thing to say. @-@;


Uhh...

[Zeb The Troll]

The word "data" has been naturalised into the English language and is now treated as a singular form, much like "information", in most instances. "Datum" is generally not used except in some rate circumstances (such as maths and science).

http://nxg.me.uk/note/2005/singular-data/
http://www.answers.com/topic/data
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/le...r/page58.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data

Okay, so I read over these and the the concensus seems to be that both ways are right. The plural is historically accurate and therefore largely accepted by the powers that be and the mass singular is common usage and therefore accepted by those self same powers that be.

In particular, the Usage Note on the Ask.com link specifically states that only 60% of the Usage Panel accepts the usage of singular case verbs in conjunction with the word [this note is not cited on Ask.com, but it is on yourdictionary.com, and it's attributed to The American Heritage Dictionary, 4th Edition, copyright 2010]. A majority, yes, but hardly an overwhelming one.

To further fuel the "both are right" fire, Merriam-Webster online and Dictionary.com (citing Random House Dictionary) both confirm that both usages are acceptable in formal writing. Even the Wikipedia link shares that the various style manuals in existence don't share an opinion.

So this begs raises the question, why get upset when someone uses the version you prefer not to use?

[Superglucose]

So this begs the question, why get upset when someone uses the version you prefer not to use?

Speaking from the position of observing human nature... you just answered your own question

[Pheehelm]

There's also this page. (Actually their whole list is a bit addictive. Click with care.)

So this begs the question, why get upset when someone uses the version you prefer not to use?

AUGH

[Rawhide]

So this begs the question, why get upset when someone uses the version you prefer not to use?

Because it is incredibly difficult to read.

The strongest argument against plural 'data' is that plural 'data' looks weird; thus it is distracting; thus it is bad writing.

When you read in the middle of a sentence '...the data are analysed by...', you stumble: your subconscious grammatical consistency checks raise an alarm! -- you have misparsed them (yes, like that). You automatically go back to the beginning for another go, more carefully this time, but realise, too late, that you are simply reading the work of an author in his weddings-and-funerals suit, writing as he would never speak. You regather your concentration, and press on.

Because almost no-one does speak like that.

http://nxg.me.uk/note/2005/singular-data/

Take a full read of that article, by Norman Gray, it addresses several of the reasons data as a plural still exists as well as expressing an opinion that data as a plural is on the way out.

Looking at online dictionaries, the American Heritage Book of English Usage is rather evasive, and ends with the extraordinary remark that 'When plural, data has the unusual characteristic of not being capable of modification by cardinal numbers. You may have various data but you will never have five or ten data.' This has the unusual characteristic of indicating squarely that it's not a plural at all.

Merriam-Webster Online has a nice note on usage, saying 'Data leads a life of its own quite independent of datum, of which it was originally the plural' (indeed), and ending with a resigned sigh, 'The plural construction is more common in print, evidently because the house style of several publishers mandates it'.

Now here I am obviously being at least a little prescriptive. But more descriptive than it might at first appear: native speakers naturally use 'data' as a singular noun until someone in authority tells them not to, whether that is a journal style guide or someone with the 'latin plural' schtick. Thus the plural usage is maintained in the language only artificially, as a status marker -- it will soon die.

[Keld Denar]

Any Playgrounders in Seattle wanna hang out for a few hours on probably the 2nd 7th of September?

I sense a great disturbance in the force. As if a playgrounder will be in my neighborhood, and desires to hang out.

Yea, man, I live in Federal Way, which is about 5 miles from the airport. If you wanna hang, drop me a PM with your flight info. I work till 4ish PM local time, but if you are gonna be dropping into town some time after that, I could even pick you up from the airport and save you a $50 taxi ride. If not, I can recommend a REALLY good $50 taxi. :P

We can get a brew or two and chat about life, D&D, or whatever you want, I'm pretty easy.

[Lioness]

Mother cautions me to not add anyone on FB I haven't met in real life. Anuan, SMEE, and several dancers from America later...

Meh. I'm pretty confidant that none of you are malicious interweb meanies. Huzzah for the destructive confidence of the young!

Oh, and I so want to keep my hair red. I loves it.

[Superglucose]

... I might just go to Seattle just to hag out with you Keld.

(P.S. are you in any PbP games at the moment that are looking for a player?)

About the internet thing: the internet is not anonymous.

[Zeb The Troll]

Speaking from the position of observing human nature... you just answered your own question

I'm afraid I don't understand your point.

AUGH

I'll be darned. Learned something new. I'll fix that.

EDIT TO RESPOND:

Because it is incredibly difficult to read.

http://nxg.me.uk/note/2005/singular-data/

Take a full read of that article, by Norman Gray, it addresses several of the reasons data as a plural still exists as well as expressing an opinion that data as a plural is on the way out.

Aye, I can see why one might prefer the singular. (I've never been jarred by reading it, as Mr. Gray apparently has been.) All of that is still just the passionate ranting of one person. He may be an authority figure on language, but his opinion is clearly not unanimously held amongst authority figures on language.

Regarding the ability of the "plural" to be modified by cardinal numbers, that's hardly unique to this word. How about the words "monies" or "waters"? You can say "I enjoy collecting the monies of the world," or even "My mother sent me monies from 15 different countries while she was travelling abroad," but you cannot say "I've collected 15 foreign monies," for example. This seems to render that argument moot.

[Keld Denar]

... I might just go to Seattle just to hag out with you Keld.

Or I might have to come to Cali. Its one of the 4 states in the US I haven't been to. If we then take a road trip to Vagas, i'll be down to 2...Hawaii and Lousianna.

(P.S. are you in any PbP games at the moment that are looking for a player?)

Not since he was banned...all the games I'm in are either full or dead. I'll keep you in mind though.

[Superglucose]

@Zeb, I want Mr. Rawhide to understand that I wub him with the depths of my heart, and that he is very much human.

You see, humans want to be the best they can. We look for what is the best constantly... it's why people develop brand preferences. Why would anyone prefer something that's not "the best"? Even "cheapest" has its own connotations of "best," it's the "best" price.

So even on the opinion of whether it's "data is" or "data are," Mr. Rawhide has formed an opinion. He believes, if I'm not mistaken, that "data are" is correct. He would not hold that opinion if he didn't think that "data are" is the best way to express oneself, and why shouldn't he? If he thought "data are" wasn't the best option, he wouldn't subscribe to that view point.

But if "data are" is the best, then "data is" isn't as good, which translates to "data is" is bad, which means the he feels the need to correct this misconception. And when the misconception keeps coming up, he gets frustrated, and thus, upset.

Everyone (especially me lol) does this to some extent or another, and it's why we each have what are called "pet peeves." Little things that bother us though on the outside they seem like little and inconsequential things... it's all driven from our ambition and desire to be the best.

At least, that's my opinion.

(By the by I am offering NO opinion on whether it's "data are" or "data is" just pointing out that Rawhide strikes me as perfectly human and "normal" for various definitions of "normal.")

@Keld, it was a pity because that game was awesome. It spawned an instant meme at our table... "For those of you who speak arctic big cat..."

[Anuan]

I sense a great disturbance in the force. As if a playgrounder will be in my neighborhood, and desires to hang out.

Yea, man, I live in Federal Way, which is about 5 miles from the airport. If you wanna hang, drop me a PM with your flight info. I work till 4ish PM local time, but if you are gonna be dropping into town some time after that, I could even pick you up from the airport and save you a $50 taxi ride. If not, I can recommend a REALLY good $50 taxi. :P

We can get a brew or two and chat about life, D&D, or whatever you want, I'm pretty easy.

I don't drink, unless there's a local beer that'd be interesting to try out, in which case I might have one. You'll hear from me at some point, cause it's likely I'll be in Seattle at least a few hours before I have to catch my continuing flight.

Mother cautions me to not add anyone on FB I haven't met in real life. Anuan, SMEE, and several dancers from America later...

Meh. I'm pretty confidant that none of you are malicious interweb meanies. Huzzah for the destructive confidence of the young!

Oh, and I so want to keep my hair red. I loves it.

Neverfear, I mean you no harm. Unless you struggle >.>

Also, do keep your hair red, it looks nice. So did your natural colour, though.

Also, my first time using multiquote. Do like

[Keld Denar]

I don't drink, unless there's a local beer that'd be interesting to try out, in which case I might have one. You'll hear from me at some point, cause it's likely I'll be in Seattle at least a few hours before I have to catch my continuing flight.

I'm not a heavy drinker myself (especially if I have to drive you around), but more of a connoisseur of delicious beers. There are several prominant microbrewers in the greater Seattle area, like Pyramid, Red Hook, Elyssian, and Mac & Jacks. Its more of a social activity that doesn't involve standing around with our hands in our pockets.

[Rawhide]

Superglucose: I don't understand what you are trying to say.


Zeb: Also, it's not a case of me wanting to grammatically correct anybody. It's a case of me feeling exactly the same way as Norman Gray on how jarring and difficult "data are" is to read. Once or twice is ok, but in a book about computer security, where it is on just about every page multiple times, this makes the book a pain and chore to read.

[Superglucose]

Or ribs and exceptionally cute girls?

EDIT: that being upset because you think someone is wrong and they think they're right is human nature. I'm giving a reason: because we want to be the best.

[Rawhide]

Oh, no. I'm not trying to correct someone because I feel that they are wrong. Nor am I upset that someone is using the term incorrectly. I'm frustrated because this adherence to the latin structure, which no longer applies (see quote below from Norman Gray) makes the entire book so needlessly difficult to read.

What that means is that there was almost certainly no latin word for the concept that we now identify by the english word 'data', and that to the extent that data was a technical term in late latin, and hence in early modern english, it surely meant nothing, or nothing much, beyond the slightly specialised mathematical meaning of the english word 'given' (as in 'Given ten goats...' as the preamble to a rather tedious algebra problem). If you know otherwise, I'd be delighted to hear.

Put another way, that means that the word 'data', as a technical term referring to the ore of observations, which can be painstakingly reduced to extract knowledge, is not a latin word at all. It's a native english word with a latin past, which means, bluntly, that we get to choose how to use it, and if its meaning changes over time -- as it has -- then its grammatical analysis can reasonably and properly migrate also.

Put yet another way, this whole section is redundant. Etymology can satisfy our curiousity about our language, or give colour, texture and ripeness to the words we use, but it can do no more than suggest how we actually use the words, when we do use them, ourselves, now.

[Trobby]

It is now 3:26 AM. I am playing a 3.6 game as a short, androgynous catgirl and listening to the Project Chaos remix of Sonic & Knuckles 3.

...Somehow...every part of that is awesome.

Edit: Oh right. And posting on the playground. Can't forget that.