Warhammer 40K Tabletop VIII: "You're Gonna have To Face It, You're Addicted To Math"

[Cheesegear]

Well, they still have no ranged weapons and cost a butload of points each.

No ranged weapons has never been their weak point. Having no ranged weapons means they will always be Running. Which is exactly what you want them doing.

Buttload of points? 200? For five? 400? For ten? Nobody has ever had a problem paying for that. Point-for-point, they're one of the best units in the game. They should be more expensive than what they already are.

For reference, Nob Bikers are 45 Points, base. And are still not as good as Hammernators. And people are willing to pay a lot more than 45 points each for Nob Bikers.

Demon prince/sorceror of slanesh to make them move somewhere where they can't assault.

IMO, there are better things to do with Lash. Moving Hammernators backwards is not one of the better things that they could be doing. Considering that you use Lash in your turn, and not your opponent's.

If you could use Lash in your opponent's phase? Yes. That is exactly what you would do. And it would. Be. Awesome! Broken.

decent chance of failing the armor save to massed flashlight fire.

I have emphasised the operative word for you. Even 'on averages', you're only killing one (less than one, actually, which isn't a 'decent chance' at all). Likewise with the above, shooting Hammernators is not what Infantry Guard should worry themselves with.

Guard are worried about Bolters. Not Thunder Hammers. Any proper Imperial Guard general realises that anything even half-capable of Assault will rip his units apart and he shouldn't really try and stop it. Concentrate on your opponent's Scoring units that are running around with Bolters.

Ultimately, and I believe I conceded this point, Hammernators are good against pretty much everything in the game. Wheras 'not much' is good against Hammernators. And, that 'not much' isn't even available for all armies.

[EndlessWrath]

Maybe 'no counter' was hyperbole. No effective counter for Hammernators is probably more accurate.

I haven't been playing long so I'm not sure what both units are, or all the rules behind them. I imagine hammernators are space marines with Hammers and Storm shields. 2+ armor save and 3+ Invuln save right? Okay. So Null Zone to reroll successful Invuln saves (66% chance each time just about.. so 33% miss chance)
and use AP 2 or 1 weapons. I roll Lascannons t-linked on my Predators. So, blast the squad with both of them and a plasma Pistol from my librarian.. or better yet. Vortex of doom.

Or best of all... You roll all ones =/. There are strong units, how much is this squad worth? Vindicator is another thing that might help. Null zone+vindicator.

I'm not saying they aren't good units, but I wouldn't say undefeatable.

[Wraith]

I have trouble justifying such an expensive unit, considering their weapons are AP/-

There is no justification - Eldar players just have to take, and like it, or go without.
Then again, I'm bound to say that - to me, the worst thing in 3rd Edition was when Warp Spiders lost their Instant-Death-Causing Template weapons, and have never forgiven GW since....

Making them Strength 'D' AP5 (Template) again would be a bad idea, I conceed that. Make them S6 AP- and (Template), though, and suddenly we're talking to a fun, interesting and effective unit again.

Having said that, quite a lot of the Eldar Codex can seem like that compared to others, and I don't even mean the newer power-creep-enhanced Marine Codices. There are very few Eldar Units that I would consider to be both 'Good' and 'Correctly Priced'.
Even Wraithlord, if I'm being brutally honest, are probably too cheap and deserve quite a bit of the flak that they get from opposing players.

Maybe *I* will pick up the imminent Dark Eldar Codex and see if I can run a 'Good Eldar' army with it, just to see the difference for myself

[crazedloon]

Maybe 'no counter' was hyperbole. No effective counter for Hammernators is probably more accurate.

But I am also of the opinion that you often do not need to outright counter (kill) a unit to make it ineffective

I think haminators are one of the units which are rather easy to deal with in this fashion. With them you can simply choose to deny them a target (by movement) and deal with the rest of the army. A haminator unit has a threat range of 12" (6 move 6 assault) you have a 6 inch move which can only be countered by the hamnators run move. provided proper manuevering and use of vehicles it is not too hard to avoid the unit or throw one of your own cheaper units under the bus to slow them down. If a guard unit gets crushed by them who cares if the tanks and all the other guard units get a turn to move away.

The reason thunderwolves are soo much better is becuase of the increase in threat range. Sure the increase in stats are nice but it all truth the real pain is that 12" assault move while being fleet. This is what makes them hard to counter or deal with (same goes for the nob bikers, seer council .... seeing a trend?)

[Cheesegear]

So Null Zone and use AP 2 or 1 weapons.

Yes. This is one tactic that occasionally - but not always - works. But, a clever player will also knock out your Predators or Vindicators on the first turn. There are about a dozen ways to do so across all armies in the game. A good general actually looks at the battlefield, and tries to kill what can kill his best unit.

As lots of people have said about truckloads of other things, when you fire at one thing, you're not firing at anything else (unless you're Long Fangs or Crisis Suits - one of the reasons why said two units are great). Hammernators - Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers - are taken for their 'fire magnet' quality as much as anything else. If you're using your Vindicator or Lascannons to hit Hammernators, you're not using your Vindicators or Lascannons to hit my Vindicators.

Anyway, yeah. Null Zone and AP2 weapons. This tactic is available to one army, and one army only. In larger - and more competitive - games, Librarians aren't usually taken because there are so many things in the game that can ruin them at that level of play so, there aren't too many people worried about it.

[Lycan 01]

Not sure if it goes here or the Fluff thread, and that may be thread necro, so...

Anybody tried out the Deathwatch preview? I downloaded it earlier, and it looks pretty fun. The pre-made characters seen cool, and I kinda like the concepts of Horde enemies and personal Demeanors and stuff. Plus, who doesn't love starting with a power fist? I wasn't planning on getting Deathwatch, but I may think about it depending on how the preview works out. It'll be a couple of weeks before I can try it, though, due to player schedules. So, anybody else tried it/got an opinion of it?

[lord_khaine]

Well, i have taken Doomed units of mixed terminators out with a single Banshee charge, i could imagine it would not be that much harder to do the same to a unit of hammers.

[Wraith]

There's a massive difference between 3+ and 5+ saves, lord_khaine. I realise that sounds like a strong contender for the Most Obvious Statement Ever, but all the Terminators would need is 2 or 3 survivoers (and they probably would have them) and your whole Squad is in serious trouble.

A full-sized unit led by Jain Zar, I reckon, could do it in one round but you'd definitely need her and quite a lot of luck to do it reliably (if that isn't an oxymoron in itself). Anything less, I think, and you would come off second best.

As an Eldar Player, Doom and then Banshees/Fire Dragons/Wraithguard are probably your only way of dealing with Hammernators. Although having looked at what they can do, I'm frankly amazed that Shining Spears aren't more popular for such reasons.

D-Cannon are possible alternatives but their range sucks and they're somewhat unreliable, and for once it's something that Dark Reapers can't deal with. Even the almighty Wraithlord go down to Thunderhammers and Rending Power Weapons in short order.

Or use Mind War. Mind War works on almost anything.

[lord_khaine]

Well, in a ideal situation with a nearby Seer to cast Doom, and the Banshee's getting the charge (that has not been hard to set up yet), then they will inflict around 9 wounds, killing 3 of them, leaving only 2 hammers to kill 10 banshee's.

Mind war doesnt seem like a good idea though? even if it work it will only affect 1 of them, and he will still get a 3+ save.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Well, in a ideal situation with a nearby Seer to cast Doom, and the Banshee's getting the charge (that has not been hard to set up yet), then they will inflict around 9 wounds, killing 3 of them, leaving only 2 hammers to kill 10 banshee's.

Mind war doesnt seem like a good idea though? even if it work it will only affect 1 of them, and he will still get a 3+ save.

Reallly? Cause 3 Atks each, 10 troops, 4+ hit w/ 5+ re-roll wound gives me 7-8 wounds in a vacuum. (Oh wait, you'd have some sort of Sergeant now, wouldn't you? )

But a vacuum, as I've said a worrying amount of times now, is not where the game's played.

It all comes down to the dice here, is what I see. If the Banshees roll well then the Hammernators won't get anything done and they could be wiped out. If the Banshees don't roll well enough, or the Hammernators get their remaining attacks on target then those little girls will be crying for their space-elf mummies

[Closet_Skeleton]

Well, i have taken Doomed units of mixed terminators out with a single Banshee charge, i could imagine it would not be that much harder to do the same to a unit of hammers.

Mixed terminators are way weaker. They really need to be blood angels or black templars for furious charge to be effective.

[Cheesegear]

As an Eldar Player, Doom and then Banshees/Fire Dragons/Wraithguard are probably your only way of dealing with Hammernators. Although having looked at what they can do, I'm frankly amazed that Shining Spears aren't more popular for such reasons.

Err, for your points, I think I'd much rather go with Fire Dragons over Wraithguard, and probably Fire Dragons over Banshees as well. But not necessarily Wraithguard over Banshees.

Thing is, both Wraithguard and Fire Dragons are wounding on 2s. And both ignore the 2+ armour - but not the 3+ Inv. But, Fire Dragons are about half the cost.
Maybe if you don't manage to kill them all in round of shooting (you rarely do), the Wraithguard can follow up with a half-way decent Assault phase because of their better strength. But, if they fail that, it wont be fun when it gets to the Terminators' turn.

I also like Shining Spears. A lot. It gives my Jetarch somewhere to go. And S6 AP1 shots, followed up by S6 Power Weapons, followed by better Toughness, without 'unnecessarily high' Initiative is way better than Banshees. And it allows your 400+ point Jet Council of Doom to not look too much out of place when you're looking at Comp Scores.

Shining Spears also have a chance at bringing down Swarmlord if it's their turn. The Shining Spear Exarch also Instant Death's Space Marines. Yeah. Getting Insta-Gibbed by Eldar. How embarrassing.

Or use Mind War. Mind War works on almost anything.

It works on single models, not units. So, you might get to kill one Terminator.


EDIT: Anyone use Vanguard? How do you find them?

[Closet_Skeleton]

I'm making a tactical squad out of random bits and only have the parts for a missile launcher or a lascannon. I'm planning on going for the lascannon but I'm not sure what's best.

I'm also completly lacking any special weapons and my only sergeant is an old metal one with a bolt gun and auspex.

In deferance to the "tactical companies are boring" and "codex chapters and idiots" crowd I am trying to make the most tactical company army possible with Blood Angels. With all the canonical squad markings and everything.

[One Step Two]

(snip) ...I also like Shining Spears. A lot. It gives my Jetarch somewhere to go. And S6 AP1 shots, followed up by S6 Power Weapons... (snip)

I also like shining spear, but AP 1? They're Lance, but they are only AP 4 Both the laser lance and the star lance.

If they were AP 1 shots? Wow... I wish.

[Isak]

EDIT: Anyone use Vanguard? How do you find them?

My only experience with Vanguard Marines (If this is what you were referring to), is at a local yearly convention, and lots of reading and thinking about them.

Personally, I absolutely love them. In a smaller point game, they're just too expensive to use though. Having to purchase jet packs for all of them. Much cheaper to just grab a unit of Assault Marines, unless you're decking them all out with power weapons.

In larger battles, where points don't matter as much; Having a single 10 man squad, or two 5 man Combats filled with TH/SS or SS/PW or PF filled Jump Infrantry seems TERRIFYING.

Also, Heroic Intervention. Being able to assault directly after Deep Striking? Yes Please.

[Cheesegear]

I'm making a tactical squad out of random bits and only have the parts for a missile launcher or a lascannon. I'm planning on going for the lascannon but I'm not sure what's best.

Don't put Missile Launchers on your Tactical Squads. It's kind of a waste, considering that Plasma/Las Cannons are dirt cheap. The only reason you want a Missile Launcher/Heavy Bolter/Multi-Melta is if you plan on moving a lot (say, in a Rhino), and that way you haven't 'wasted' any points on a totally free Heavy Weapon.

Without knowing what the rest of your army is, I'd say go with a Plasma Cannon or Lascannon. Then find parts for a Plasmagun.

In deferance to the "tactical companies are boring" and "codex chapters and idiots" crowd I am trying to make the most tactical company army possible with Blood Angels. With all the canonical squad markings and everything.

Codex Chapters are actually better in Blood Angels.
Anyway, this is the sort of thing I do with every single one of my armies and I fully endorse it. Go team!

In larger battles, where points don't matter as much; Having a single 10 man squad, or two 5 man Combats filled with TH/SS or SS/PW or PF filled Jump Infrantry seems TERRIFYING.

But, see, that's what I'm talking about. It seems terrifying. But they're really not. Hence why I asked.

Let's look...This is pretty much the 'optimal' layout...

But...
Vanguard (x10) - 680 Points
x9 Storm Shields, x7 Power Weapons, x2 Power Fists
Sergeant: Relic Blade and Storm Shield
Jump Packs

When we look at this...We are aware that 10 Terminators (read; Hammernators), and a Land Raider is cheaper. I can't see why I'd want to take Vanguard when I can take Terminators and Land Raider for less points?
Or maybe 27 Sternguard? Or maybe 20 Sternguard, and Pedro Kantor to round things out?

I just can't see why I'd want to take them over something else. For those kinds of points, you'd want to hope that they're at least as good as Thunderwolves...They aren't.

Also, Heroic Intervention. Being able to assault directly after Deep Striking? Yes Please.

'After Deep Striking'. That's the problem. There's a reasonable chance (approximately 50%) that you wont see them on the board until Turn 3. At least. Unless you're Blood Angels or paying another 230 Points to grab Tigurius.

It's common knowledge that you don't Deep Strike Assault Marines. If you don't Deep Strike, you'll be in Assault by Turn 2 (as opposed to maybe not even being on the board until at least Turn 3), and Vanguard are no different. Especially since you can Scatter amazingly (unless Blood Angels). Which means you need a Locator Beacon 'on the ground', and you need to make sure that it doesn't die before your Vanguard get in the game.

I posted a theoretical list about a page back, with Scouts and Drop Pods landing on the first turn all with Locator Beacons following drops by Vanguard. However, looking at the sheer points cost involved with even a minimum Vanguard (325 Points, almost as expensive as Suicide Sternguard and nowhere near as reliable), I've just found it to be pretty much a non-viable list. Unless I go minimum Troops or something.

I just can't seem to get Vanguard to work. They're just so...Terrible...
Please, anybody use Vanguard in actual games? As in, frequently?

[Incomp]

EDIT: Anyone use Vanguard? How do you find them?

As far as I know, nobody uses Vanguard. And you find them at the hobby shop, like any other model. :P

That said, just last weekend I help a buddy of mine to build his own squad of them. We used assault marine bodies plus terminator lightning claws for the regular guys, then I convinced him (having learnt much reading this thread) to give the sergeant a power fist. (We didn't have a thunder hammer on hand to work with, sadly.) Oh yeah, and my friend decided that a bolt pistol 'was not epic enough' for his sergeant to be using, so he modeled a throwing spear out of a power sword and a LOTR orc spearman model. It was some cool stuff.

EDIT: Cheese having clarified his question, my answer is: Nope, I've never seen them used in a real fight, for pretty much the reasons you've stated.

[Wraith]

Err, for your points, I think I'd much rather go with Fire Dragons over Wraithguard, and probably Fire Dragons over Banshees as well. But not necessarily Wraithguard over Banshees.

Ignoring points, I was just listing units with AP2 or better weapons that Eldar had access to. Obviously Fire Dragons are going to be a better choice in general - although there is something satisfying about taking a Wraith Army and shooting up a Dark Angels' 1st Company list....

It works on single models, not units. So, you might get to kill one Terminator.

One, usually, is all I need.
Go ahead, take your Thunder Hammer and use tank-shredding equipment to squash a couple of Guardians. No biggie. I'm more interested in that Skull-Masked fellow next to you, or the guy with multiple attacks from his Lightning Claws anyway.

I also like shining spear, but AP 1? They're Lance, but they are only AP 4 Both the laser lance and the star lance.

If they were AP 1 shots? Wow... I wish.

For the record, they count as Power Weapons only on the turn that they charge and are Assault 1 - That is possibly where Cheesegear's confusion is coming from, as I can attest that I have made the same mistake in the past.

AP4 and Assault 1 can kinda blur together, especially if you also have it in your head that 'they ignore saves' as well

Also, Heroic Intervention. Being able to assault directly after Deep Striking? Yes Please.

Locator Beacons are mandatory, I would imagine, to make sure that you get the best out of your expensive, elite-ranked unit. Which means you're usually paying extra for either a unit of Scouts or a Drop Pod to make it work 'properly'.

It isn't that such a thing alone makes Vanguard a bad choice, but their main advantage is their Heroic Intervention rule, and it's either a big risk or a big points cost to use it in a pivotal role for an already expensive unit.
Unless you really, really want to use Vanguard for a specific role and are prepared to have a couple of other units backing them up, an ordinary Assault Squad is probably just as viable.

[Cheesegear]

Vanguard (x10) - 680 Points
x9 Storm Shields, x7 Power Weapons, x2 Power Fists
Sergeant: Relic Blade and Storm Shield
Jump Packs

Oh, check it, yo!

Grey Knight Terminators (x10) - 527 Points
x2 Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields, x2 Psycannons
Brother-Captain: Auspex

Why Vanguard again?
(Tip: GKTs have Power Weapons)

[Wraith]

Oh, check it, yo!

Grey Knight Terminators (x10) - 527 Points
x2 Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields, x2 Psycannons
Brother-Captain: Auspex

Why Vanguard again?
(Tip: GKTs have Power Weapons)

133 points for Heroic Intervention - 13 per model. I think someone missed a decimal point out when they were writing the Space Marine Codex.

[Klose_the_Sith]

133 points for Heroic Intervention - 13 per model. I think someone missed a decimal point out when they were writing the Space Marine Codex.

Are you suggesting that the Vanguard unit cost 68 Points?

[Cheesegear]

133 points for Heroic Intervention - 13 per model. I think someone missed a decimal point out when they were writing the Space Marine Codex.

Hmm...I actually worked it out differently.

325 Points for 10 Vanguard, with Jump Packs, with a 'free' Power Weapon.
205 Points for 10 Assault Marines, Sergeant with Power Weapon.

Leaves 120 Points left over. Given the points cost for Tactical Marines, Assault Squads, Devastators, Scout Bikes and Scouts*, we can safely say that +1 Attack = 10 points per model (which is not worth it, by the way, Sergeants also come with an extra point of Leadership).

Roughly making Heroic Intervention 2 points per model. But, 10 points for an extra attack (before all the other upgrades you'll want to give them), makes Vanguard pretty ridiculous...Bloodletters are better Vanguard than Vanguard are.


*A regular Space Marine Bike Sergeant is apparently +15 points, breaking the mold for absolutely no reason. Even a Chapter Champion is only +10 Points. And a Damned Sergeant is only +5 points for +1WS - but that's different.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Don't put Missile Launchers on your Tactical Squads. It's kind of a waste, considering that Plasma/Las Cannons are dirt cheap. The only reason you want a Missile Launcher/Heavy Bolter/Multi-Melta is if you plan on moving a lot (say, in a Rhino), and that way you haven't 'wasted' any points on a totally free Heavy Weapon.

Without knowing what the rest of your army is, I'd say go with a Plasma Cannon or Lascannon. Then find parts for a Plasmagun.

Don't have any tanks due to money issues. Otherwise I was thinking of giving them a multi-melta and a drop pod.

I've posted the rest of my army before, but it's:

Full tactical squad with power fist, plasma gun and plasma cannon
(new) tactical squad with power fist and storm bolter sergeant, lascannon (currently) and no special weapon, making it 9 men strong and illegal.
Full assault squad with hand flamer and power fist sergeant, 2 flamers
Full assault squad with infernus pistol and power weapon sergeant, 2 melta guns
5 deathcompany with bolt guns (for fluff reasons) I figured bolt guns would make them worthwhile since they aren't getting a razorback any time soon
Librarian with jump pack and hand flamer
Sanguinary Priest with bike (I have another with a jump pack, but I'm borrowing him and need to give him back at some point)

But...
Vanguard (x10) - 680 Points
x9 Storm Shields, x7 Power Weapons, x2 Power Fists
Sergeant: Relic Blade and Storm Shield
Jump Packs

Shouldn't that be x7 lightning claws? Seeing how the storm shields stop you getting two weapon bonuses?

I was thinking of a 5 man vanguard squad with a power weapon, a power fist and four melta bombs. Turbo boost a biker priest in to give them furious charge.

Sadly that's also a "generalist" squad for killing either tanks or devastator squads. So you're better off with combi melta sternguard who can kill monstrous creatures too.

225 points. About as much as terminators with a heavy weapon. Or blood angels hammernators.

They only need storm shields to stop vindicators killing them, and in my eyes heroic intervention is a defense against that.

Roughly making Heroic Intervention 2 points per model. But, 10 points for an extra attack (before all the other upgrades you'll want to give them), makes Vanguard pretty ridiculous...Bloodletters are better Vanguard than Vanguard are.

Sound like Sword Brethren.

[Cheesegear]

Don't have any tanks due to money issues. Otherwise I was thinking of giving them a multi-melta and a drop pod.

Do you mean Meltagun and Drop Pod? Because Multi-Meltas would be the worst.

5 deathcompany with bolt guns (for fluff reasons) I figured bolt guns would make them worthwhile since they aren't getting a razorback any time soon

Death Company are better with Bolters anyway. Just saying.

Shouldn't that be x7 lightning claws?

Yes. Still doesn't make it that much better.

225 points. About as much as terminators with a heavy weapon. Or blood angels hammernators.

225 points is still too expensive for what it does. An Assault Squad would do roughly the same for less points.
Terminators with a Heavy Weapon is way better.
Hammernators are way better.

They only need storm shields to stop vindicators killing them, and in my eyes heroic intervention is a defense against that.

It is and it isn't. The best defense you have against Vindicators is simply not being on the board. However, that's the biggest weakness too.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Do you mean Meltagun and Drop Pod? Because Multi-Meltas would be the worst.

MM's work pretty well on Tac Squads that are dropping in, although I also always aim for at least one dedicated infantry-hunting drop squad, looking something like this

Tacticals 230
Flamer, Heavy Bolter
Sergeant w/Power Fist
+ Drop Pod

Of course, I'll also drop in a melta-armed squad at the same time

Tacticals 235
Meltagun, Multi-Melta
Sergeant w/Power Fist
+ Drop Pod

(and I've decided that Power Fists are actually good on Tactical Squads and I was just being silly, depending on the role they play. So shhh )

Which has the added bonus of leaving a 'free' pod slot, for an odd-numbered drop pod assault. Both Tactical Squads make good mid-late-game drops (kept in reserve) cause they can mess up an opponents objective, or potentially his last armoured bastion, depending on which one you drop. Neither role represent perfect solutions, but they don't cost that much and they're scoring units. So it balances out.

[Wraith]

Are you suggesting that the Vanguard unit cost 68 Points?

After you include equipment and wargear, an average of 68 points per model in a 10-man Squad, like Cheesegear counted up (680 for 10, with accessories).

Whereas GK Terminators average out at about 53 per model, with accessories. And between the two, you're paying an awful lot of points to gain Heroic Intervention, while losing out on things like Aegis, Shrouding, True Grit, Fearless, +/-1 saves, extra attacks, etc.

Maybe I explained it poorly, and Cheesegear broke it down more clearly than I certainly did, but all I meant was that Heroic Intervention seems extremely expensive when compared to what is, frankly, a much better unit - which, I think, we all agree on even if I have a haphazard way of getting to it

At the very least, let's be completely fair to Vanguard Veterans: Their models aren't the worst I've ever seen.

[crazedloon]

225 points is still too expensive for what it does. An Assault Squad would do roughly the same for less points

Though agree that they are overpriced I think you assessments that they do the same thing as normal assault squads is a little bit of an overstatement of thief own uselessness.

Vs 5+ armor I will give you the difference is negligible
But vs 4+ or better the vangaurd start standing out.

The problem is less that assault squads do the same thing but more that every other tactic and this units are better. IMHO assault squads should only be seen in blood angels as the points are better spent elsewhere

[Closet_Skeleton]

I wish I could find someone to swap plasma pistols for missile launchers with. I'm swimming in plasma pistols and I even have an actual squad equiped with them.

[lord_khaine]

Reallly? Cause 3 Atks each, 10 troops, 4+ hit w/ 5+ re-roll wound gives me 7-8 wounds in a vacuum. (Oh wait, you'd have some sort of Sergeant now, wouldn't you? )

But a vacuum, as I've said a worrying amount of times now, is not where the game's played.

It all comes down to the dice here, is what I see. If the Banshees roll well then the Hammernators won't get anything done and they could be wiped out. If the Banshees don't roll well enough, or the Hammernators get their remaining attacks on target then those little girls will be crying for their space-elf mummies

Well, Average rolls are enough to kill 3 of the terminators, leaving 2 of them to kill 2 Banshee's on average, where the remaining 8 banshee's should still be able to kill 1 terminator in the opponents turn, losing 1 more banshee before the surviving members finish off the squad.

How much is it a terminator with shield&hammer cost?

[Klose_the_Sith]

Well, Average rolls are enough to kill 3 of the terminators, leaving 2 of them to kill 2 Banshee's on average, where the remaining 8 banshee's should still be able to kill 1 terminator in the opponents turn, losing 1 more banshee before the surviving members finish off the squad.

How much is it a terminator with shield&hammer cost?

But see now, that's the thing. Average rolls are meaningless and 3+ armour can ruin your day. Like seriously ruin.

I smack my Hammernator's into Penitent Engine squads and the like, facing DDCCW. Those should, on average, cause unsaved wounds. But they generally don't.

3+ saves are goddamn reliable. Even if you inflict 7/8 wounds, I'd be surprised to lose 3 cause generally I'd only lose 1-2. And no, 1 would not be a gaping anomaly.

Then on I1? 8 4+/2+ ID rolls. From which I'd generally see a swing between 2-6 Banshees going down, with the statistical likelihoods as often as the others.

It's true, if their shields fail then the Hammernators go down. However, if in the more likely scenario, the Hammernators stay standing, there's a good chance that you'll lose 4-6 in return for 1-2. Very good chance.

(By the by, Ham's are 40 apiece)