Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

[Winterwind]

Nuthin' but Penal Legion, Rough Riders and Punishers - yeah baby!

Ever since I've seen a Rough Rider unit take out Abaddon in a single turn I will never be caught saying anything bad about Rough Riders.

(though, I'm not sure if they were not greatly helped by Abaddon's daemon weapon rebelling when they charged him. And also, he was walking around alone. No, don't ask me what that player was thinking.)

[evisiron]

So, I'm back from the 40k tournament!

I took the Battlewagon Orks out for a spin, and here is how they did. I'll keep it pretty brief.

The tournament gave battle points depending on the result (Win = 15, draw = 10, lose = 5) and then from -5 to +5 based on the VP difference.
1500 points with no special characters.

Round 1 vs the Imperial Guard

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Mission: Sieze Ground, Pitched battle
Lets see, swarms of infantry, two Vendettas, a manticore, a griffon and a leman russ. Oh, and a hellhound. I am rather glad my boyz are packed in metal bawkses.
I deploy on his manticore flank and fly up the side, warboss and mega nobs wheeling towards the centre. His shooting bounces off my Kustom Force Field bar one immobilisation.
His Hellhound pops up behind me and the immobilised boys hop out to deal with it then sit on an objective.
The other boys race forward and thanks to a wider-than-base gap, charge the Manticore and it's bubblewrap infantry unit, and rips them to shreds. They then re-embark in the next turn and park on an objective.
The warboss is launched at an airborn vendetta and tears it to shreds while the meganobs wander off to sit on another objective thanks to a flat tire.
His vendetta drops his veterans on another objective, only for a merry Beep Beep of the Gat Mobile trukk boyz zooming in from reserves and tearing them apart.
Result: Victory! 4 objectives to one. +1 Bp for slight victory points difference.

Round 2 vs Black Templars

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Capture and Control, Dawn of War
Facing off against one of two "we can do black templars without land raiders" lists. It has 2 sets of terminators in drop pods, 2 tactical squads in a drop pods, another on foot with an Emperors Champion. Oh, and 3 vindicators.
He gets to pick the deployment zone and sets down his objective in a set of ruins with his footsloggers. 5 stories up. This is going to be tricky...
The vindicators form up in the centre.

My army rolls in a straight line for the ruins only to have terminators Drop in for tea. One tactical drops for my objective on the other side of the table while the other lands and scurries for the ruins.

38 boys line hop off their wagons and prepare to assault the termies. A round of slugga fire kills one of them, and they... run? What?! Apparently the God Emperor can be better serves by running to fight another day.

The vindicators fail to do anything significant, and so my Meganobs and boss roll up, charge, and tear them apart. They head head towards the ruin objective only to have their path repeatedly blocked by the fleeing termies. Argh! Even In Cowardice they Serve!

The Lootas and grot artillery pound the people in the ruins until they are all either fleeing or dead, while a trukk arrives to take back my objective by wiping out the tactical squad. They in turn have the other termies arrive to dismantle their trukk with assault cannon fire. *roll roll* Immobilised, immobilised, weapon destroyed, weapon destroyed... It didn't explode. I remember Ramshackle. *roll* It does explode! It's a Christmas miracle for the black templars! The shrapnel successfully breaks the boyz who flee off the table.
Boys in a wagon fly towards it and hop out, it's contested. Lets see if we can wipe those termies out in CC!

A dedicated scramble up the ruins fall short as time is called before I can grab either objective. His army consists of 6 guys while I have only lost a trukk and its boyz, but it is still a tie!

Result: Tie, +5 for victory point difference.

Round 3 vs Dark Eldar

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Spearhead, annihilation.
Okay, gotta have a big win to pull it back - I am fighting the Dark Eldar. Damn.

This quickly became a shoot-out between Big Shootas and Dark Lances. Surprisingly, big shootas win out and pop a few transports. The Orks rush forward and charge, and roll pathetically. They take another transport out and a few randomers, but get ripped up like an angry cucumber in a blender.

My warboss and mega nobs got immobilised again, but still skorched a group of reavers to death. Huh, these guys aren't nearly as tough as Firefly led me to believe...

I pull back or ram units as needs dictate. When time is called I am up 5 kill points to 4.

Result: Win. +1 for victory points.

Tournament Result: I placed 3rd! A solid 3rd too, as I was 1 battle point of a potential 60 off second place.

[Zorg]

but it would look so awesome. I can see it now, the punishers are drawn by penal legionnaires (fuel is to important to waste on this rabble) and are meant to dissuade the penal legionnaires from revolting; the rough riders are officers leading each penal squad, whip in hand and button on the explosive collar remotes. The rough riders by themselves are those men who have "luckily" lost their prisoners to enemy combatants and have banded together for glory and the emperor...... now I want to make this army.

1500pt list, HQ, 6x Legion, 3x R Riders, 1x LR Punisher:

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HQ: Company Command Squad (8#, 275 pts)
2 Company Command Squad @ 275 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x2; Lasgun x1; Carapace Armour; Krak Grenades; Medi-pack; Regimental Standard; Vox Caster; Meltagun x1; Bodyguard; Bodyguard)
1 Heavy Weapons Team (Autocannon; Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon x1; Flak Armour; Lasgun x1; Carapace Armour (Based on Squad); Krak Grenades)
1 Company Commander (Frag Grenades; Refractor Field; Laspistol; Carapace Armour; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs; Power Fist; Senior Officer)
1 Bodyguard (Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol; Carapace Armour; Krak Grenades; Look out - Arghh!)
1 Bodyguard (Frag Grenades; Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol; Carapace Armour; Krak Grenades; Look out - Arghh!)
1 Chimera (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Heavy Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Extra Armor; Pintle Heavy Stubber; Amphibious; Mobile Command Vehicle)

HQ: Lord Commissar (1#, 100 pts)
1 Lord Commissar @ 100 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Refractor Field; Close Combat Weapon; Carapace Armour; Melta Bombs; Power Fist; Aura of Discipline; Independent Character; Summary Execution; Stubborn)


6x

Troops: Penal Legion Squad (10#, 80 pts)
9 Penal Legion Squad @ 80 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Close Combat Weapon; Flak Armour; Lasgun x9; Desperadoes; Scouts; Stubborn)
1 Penal Custodian (Close Combat Weapon; Flak Armour; Laspistol)



3x

Fast Attack: Rough Rider Squad (10#, 140 pts)
9 Rough Rider Squad @ 140 pts (Unit Type: Cavalry; Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Hunting Lance x7; Laspistol x9; Meltagun x2)
1 Rough Rider Sergeant (Unit Type: Cavalry; Flak Armour; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Hunting Lance; Melta Bombs; Power Weapon)



Heavy Support: Leman Russ Squadron (1#, 225 pts)
1 Leman Russ Squadron @ 225 pts
1 Leman Russ Punisher (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Punisher Gatling Cannon; Heavy Bolter; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Heavy Bolter Sponsons x2; Dozer Blade; Extra Armor; Lumbering Behemoth)


Total Roster Cost: 1500



Not too bad really, though the anti-tank is tied up in the HQ and Rider squads, so this list would have trouble with armour heavy lists. It's also almost all foot-slogging, with not many guys, so would do poorly against a gunline or highly maneuverable army.

For a themed army it'd be better to use IG platoons with Commisars to represent Punishment Squads for IG, and conscript squads for 'regular' Penal Legion. Add in a couple of Stormtrooper of Vet squads to act as jailers, with some Sentinel support and it'd be pretty slick.

Ever since I've seen a Rough Rider unit take out Abaddon in a single turn I will never be caught saying anything bad about Rough Riders.

(though, I'm not sure if they were not greatly helped by Abaddon's daemon weapon rebelling when they charged him. And also, he was walking around alone. No, don't ask me what that player was thinking.)

I don't think they're too bad, but I couldn't think of another unit that is generally maligned in the codex - Storm Troopers or Sentinels maybe?

[Talkkno]

I think your forgetting the Deathstrike Missile Launcher.

[Wraith]

You might love to see [List Ranked in Order], but there's no way I can do it. There's just too many builds. Especially in the higher Codecies. Individual, competitive lists are completely different to a competitive Codex.

That's fair enough - I was really only thinking of, say, the most common 2 or 3 per army, but I can see why you wouldn't want to bang your head against a keyboard, typing them out just for my curiosity.

And besides, most of them aren't worth considering anyway. I'm really not expecting you to consider an Eldar Wraith Army as a competitive Tournament army, for example

Tournament Result: I placed 3rd! A solid 3rd too, as I was 1 battle point of a potential 60 off second place.

Nice going there. Not easy games but a deserved place all the same. What armies made up the top 5, and did you see any of them play may I ask?

[Tazar]

Nuthin' but Penal Legion, Rough Riders and Punishers - yeah baby!

Still beats Daemonhunters.

[Cheesegear]

Tau can jump themselves to Tier 2/3 by spamming Crisis Suits and Broadsides/Hammerheads and nothing else.

Broadsides > Hammerheads. For what its worth.

Anyway, no. No they don't. You're misunderstanding the Tier System. Remember your D&D Tiers? It's not about how good an individual list is from any single Codex. Its about how many individual lists you can make and what you can do with it.

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Do its competitive builds stand up to the competitive builds of other Codecies? Its also not necessarily how competitive an individual build is, but, rather, how many competitive builds you can make.
[...]
Tier 4. [...] Tau [...]

Depending on who you ask, there is either one way to build a competitive list, or, the 'dex just simply isn't competitive at all.

Congratulations. Tau can make one list. And even then, it falls to poop against Melta, Pie Plate and Dark Lance (S8+) spam. Which is a lot of the meta-game. So, even Tau's competitive lists aren't that competitive. Another reason for this is because there is only one list to make, everyone knows how to deal with it...S8 weapons.

Or, doing what they're already doing. Everyone is pretty much beating Tau as it is (no competitive lists? T4). The meta-game does not favour Tau. Did I say that already?

I agree on Imperial Guard belonging into the first tier though. That amount of firepower is simply sickening.

No. Tier 1. No matter what you take (as long as you know how to write a proper list), you've got a good army. With Guardsmen - especially in the vehicles - that's just not true.

[lord_khaine]

And besides, most of them aren't worth considering anyway. I'm really not expecting you to consider an Eldar Wraith Army as a competitive Tournament army, for example

But they should be, dammit!

[Turcano]

The Allies rules - if you have them - make both Codecies T2. The ability to include Infantry Platoons into your lists is rather good. Alternatively, you can take the minimum/cheapest and/or best things you can out of Codex Marines - or Imperial Guard - and then follow that up with as many D/W Hunter units as you can can make for some rather weird lists that a couple of lists around aren't ready to deal with.

I'm planning to eventually include a GK Grand Master with a terminator retinue as my main assault force; is that a good idea or not? Of course, the new codex might change everything when it hits.

[Talkkno]

No. Tier 1. No matter what you take (as long as you know how to write a proper list), you've got a good army.

Doesn't the fact of the sanguinary guard kind of suck knock them down a little to the Tier 2 then?(Granted its just one unit.)

[Winterwind]

No. Tier 1. No matter what you take (as long as you know how to write a proper list), you've got a good army. With Guardsmen - especially in the vehicles - that's just not true.

Mmm... makes sense, considering the definition.

It just feels... odd to have an army at a lower tier than another one, even if the strongest list possible with the former is more powerful than the strongest list possible with the latter (which I feel is the case with Imperial Guard and Space Wolves/Blood Angels respectively).

[Arcanoi]

Even the Blood Angels traps are decent. Sanguinary Guard might not be optimal, but they're still MEQs with PWs, AP4 Stormpistols, and a 2+ save for a not-exorbitant price.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Sanguinary Guard are okay if you support them right, they just aren't really worth the investment.

Agonisers laugh at, well, damn near anything.

I roll a lot of 3s with mine. Especially against T3 targets.

[Cheesegear]

Doesn't the fact of the sanguinary guard kind of suck knock them down a little to the Tier 2 then? (Granted its just one unit.)

No. If you want Sanguinary Guard, there's this one dude, called Dante who makes them quite good (Scoring). The other part to this sentence, is that Sanguinary Guard are not an integral part of the army. If you choose not to take them, its not like you're missing out on anything.

Contrast with Tau and Crisis Suits/Broadsides. If you don't take those units, you're in for a world of hurt. If you want your Tau army to be effective at all you need those things.

Blood Angels and Sanguinary Guard - without Dante - not so much.

The second thing is, Sanguinary Guard are not bad. Yes, there are other things in the Codex that are better (Honour Guard immediately spring to mind), but, they're not bad, and you're not going to lose the game because you took them instead of Honour Guard or Vanguard.

The Tiers assume you know how to build a half-decent list (its a highly competitive system). If you're taking Sanguinary Guard, you've probably got a reason.

It just feels... odd to have an army at a lower tier than another one, even if the strongest list possible with the former is more powerful than the strongest list possible with the latter (which I feel is the case with Imperial Guard and Space Wolves/Blood Angels respectively).

Tournament statistics across the world prove otherwise.

And, once again, Individual Lists do not a Codex make. Most lists out of Imperial Guard do not beat most lists out of Blood Angels or Space Wolves.

[Tazar]

Guard are still a top-tier tournament army though, no? Everything I've read seems to indicate so, in any case.

I'd also agree with Wintermute that the top-tier Guard lists seem every bit as competitive as the best lists Blood Angels and Space Wolves can put out there.

[crazedloon]

The Tiers assume you know how to build a half-decent list (its a highly competitive system). If you're taking Sanguinary Guard, you've probably got a reason.

this seems to contradict what you have been saying up to this point. If this is taken into account guard should be tier 1. Simply put they have the best options in the game for the best points in the game and provided "you know how to build a half-decent list" you will take the best options (in any combination) and be able to have the best list. What your argument for them being tier 2 is seems to be that there are some very bad options in the codex (there are) but if "you know how to build a half-decent list" you wont be taking those options

[Cheesegear]

Guard are still a top-tier tournament army though, no? Everything I've read seems to indicate so, in any case.

I've read tournament statistics. And it isn't the case.

I'd also agree with Wintermute that the top-tier Guard lists seem every bit as competitive as the best lists Blood Angels and Space Wolves can put out there.

So why aren't Imperial Guard winning more tournaments? Why aren't the top stats covered with Imperial Guard?

What your argument for them being tier 2 is seems to be that there are some very bad options in the codex (there are) but if "you know how to build a half-decent list" you wont be taking those options

No. That's the point. There are particular units that you need in an Imperial Guard army to make a decent list. If you're building a half-decent list, there are particular units that you must have. In Blood Angels, not so much. A 'half-decent' list out of Blood Angels is pretty much anything.


Just like when I post other things that people don't agree with, you can disagree with me as much as you like, but I'm not making this up.

[Klose_the_Sith]

So why aren't Imperial Guard winning more tournaments? Why aren't the top stats covered with Imperial Guard?

Seriously?

There are a lot more Blood Angels and Space Wolves lists out there, cause Marines are all over the place. Imperial Guard armies cost a lot of real world currencies and aren't wearing power armour. People like saving money and they (for whatever reasons) love power armour.

[lord_khaine]

Thats actualy a good point, how big is the difference in cost between a competetive Guard army, and a SW one?

Also, how big is the difference in numbers? i can also imagine painting a guard army proberly would be a real pain.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Thats actualy a good point, how big is the difference in cost between a competetive Guard army, and a SW one?

Also, how big is the difference in numbers? i can also imagine painting a guard army proberly would be a real pain.

Well, it depends on what kind of Guard army you're building (Veterans v Platoons).

If Veterans then you're looking at (for a full army) 6 squads mounted in Chimera's with tank support. Your squads are $91 minimum, except 6 of those and I'm not even sure how many tanks you're looking to pack.

That's already probably more painting and money than a Space Wolf army. If we start looking at Platoon Imperial Guard then every troop choice is a battleforce (No, really) ... and you need lots of them.

Building Imperial Guard is one of the more difficult things you can attempt in the hobby ... and that's before you factor in how many of the awesome vehicles don't exist and require conversions. (Even if they're not the hardest of conversions, some of us had enough trouble getting Combi-Melta's onto our Sternguard).

[Cheesegear]

Imperial Guard armies cost a lot of real world currencies...

Its not really an issue. It really, really isn't.

[Renegade Paladin]

Its not really an issue. It really, really isn't.

Speak for yourself; not everyone's made of money.

[Cheesegear]

Speak for yourself; not everyone's made of money.

That wasn't the point. In a competitive environment - such as where the Tiers are applicable - money ceases to be an issue.


The Tiers don't apply to everyone. If you don't play competitively, or you're not the kind of person that changes their list and/or arm[y/ies] every other week to get the very best you can out of your 'dexes, then the Tiers wont apply to you unless you're an obviously terrible list-builder, which - with the wonderful invention of net-listing - probably wont be the case

I almost wish I never posted the thing...I blame Wraith...

[Renegade Paladin]

Eh. I partially alleviated the list-changing problem using the wonders of rare-earth magnets. I have only two Leman Russ tanks (one battle tank, one Demolisher) but I can field any weapon pattern I want. Wheeee.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Its not really an issue. It really, really isn't.

Maybe not at the mythical 'top levels' of play, but even the local Tournament players are known to do things like build ye olde plumbing supply Drop Pods, or run 'counts as' without even considering doing anything about it.

Cost is always a factor. In everything.

Plus you didn't address the painting, modelling, non-power armoured factor

[Renegade Paladin]

Anyway. I've been going through the Imperial Guard articles on Games Workshop, and why can't they get their own game statistics right? In the article on putting together a Chimera, they say it has 12 side armor (wrong), and in the Cities of Death tactics article for the Guard, it says Hellhounds are vulnerable to attacks from the side (when their side armor is as good as their front, since they do have side armor 12).

[Tazar]

I've read tournament statistics. And it isn't the case.



So why aren't Imperial Guard winning more tournaments? Why aren't the top stats covered with Imperial Guard?



No. That's the point. There are particular units that you need in an Imperial Guard army to make a decent list. If you're building a half-decent list, there are particular units that you must have. In Blood Angels, not so much. A 'half-decent' list out of Blood Angels is pretty much anything.


Just like when I post other things that people don't agree with, you can disagree with me as much as you like, but I'm not making this up.

US Tournament Results for 2010:
You'll note that Guard are third after SW and SM, but above BA. They are certainly a very competitive tournament army.

They're a bit lower in England, but still above Blood Angels, and still in the top 5. They also won the same amount of tournaments in England listed on there as Space Wolves did, which happens to be significantly more than the amount won by most other armies. In America, they took 6 tournaments, which is more than even the Space Wolves.

So, by these statistics at least, Guard are winning plenty of tournaments; in fact, they're winning the most out of any race, by a noticeable majority.
Guard are and will continue to be one of the most competitive armies out there.

[Winterwind]

US Tournament Results for 2010:
You'll note that Guard are third after SW and SM, but above BA. They are certainly a very competitive tournament army.

They're a bit lower in England, but still above Blood Angels, and still in the top 5. They also won the same amount of tournaments in England listed on there as Space Wolves did, which happens to be significantly more than the amount won by most other armies. In America, they took 6 tournaments, which is more than even the Space Wolves.

So, by these statistics at least, Guard are winning plenty of tournaments; in fact, they're winning the most out of any race, by a noticeable majority.
Guard are and will continue to be one of the most competitive armies out there.

These numbers, are they adjusted for the frequency of how often the given army is played or not?
Because, just as Klose_the_Sith said, if Imperial Guard would score, say, half as many victories as Space Wolves, but be played four times less, this would mean they are in fact a lot more competitive than Space Wolves...

Also, I'm Winterwind, not Wintermute. There is a poster going by that name on these forums, but I'm not him/her. Nor am I an AI manipulating junkies. At least, to the best of my knowledge.

[Tazar]

These numbers, are they adjusted for the frequency of how often the given army is played or not?
Because, just as Klose_the_Sith said, if Imperial Guard would score, say, half as many victories as Space Wolves, but be played four times less, this would mean they are in fact a lot more competitive than Space Wolves...

Don't know that they're adjusted, but upon perusing some of the results, Guard seem less played than Space Marines and maybe Chaos, but about the same as Blood Angels/SW, when they're present.

Using tiers in the sense of an overall power ranking, Guard still appear to be very much so top tier.

EDIT: I've been looking through a bunch of the UK Tournament results, as they had a much greater SW presence, and in most tournaments with a Guard victory there was a strong Space Wolf presence; so it's not like they're rolling over Daemonhunters and Necrons. These are Guard victories in a competitive environment against good armies.

[Wraith]

Guard are still a top-tier tournament army though, no? Everything I've read seems to indicate so, in any case.

So, by these statistics at least, Guard are winning plenty of tournaments; in fact, they're winning the most out of any race, by a noticeable majority.
Guard are and will continue to be one of the most competitive armies out there.

I think this is the definition between a competitive army list and a competitive codex.

It's hard to tell for sure without seeing every individual list that placed in a Tournament, but so far as I know it correlates with what Cheesegear has been saying.
Yes, 'Guard with a lot of games.... but for all we know it might all be the same army, working off the same strengths and making the same non-competitive units redundant. That doesn't make the Codex as a whole particularly good, but it might just make that one army awesome.

The vice-versa is true. Blood Angels consistently rank in the top 5 and under 'Guard.... but each army is different in glaring ways and they rank highly because they have NO redundant units and everything in their book is awesome. That makes the Codex really really good, even if the plethora of individual armies are slightly lower ranked than the 'Guard's one (and possibly only?) competitive list.

Thats actualy a good point, how big is the difference in cost between a competetive Guard army, and a SW one?

1500 points of Blood Angels will generally contain 50-80 guys, plus vehicles.
Imperial Guard? Probably double the man-power and at least as many tanks as the other guys have tanks, land speeders and bikes added together, by my rough guesstimate

Also, I'm Winterwind, not Wintermute. There is a poster going by that name on these forums, but I'm not him/her. Nor am I an AI manipulating junkies. At least, to the best of my knowledge.

That's just what I'd expect a manipulative AI to say....

EDIT: I've been looking through a bunch of the UK Tournament results, as they had a much greater SW presence, and in most tournaments with a Guard victory there was a strong Space Wolf presence; so it's not like they're rolling over Daemonhunters and Necrons. These are Guard victories in a competitive environment against good armies.

Daemonhunters in a Tournament? And not just for the comedy value of a "14 Land Raiders LOLZ" list? Really!?!