Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Thank you Winterwind you are a gentleman and a scholar

I did read Cheesegears and that got me curios. I wanted Nurge in particular not Chaos in general.

I would never dream of taking possessed, horrible unit. Horrible models and that would have been okey, I would relish the chance to convert possessed. But they are terrible.

Should you put them in rhinos or let them walk. I'm thinking walking make take long but rhinos make a lot of points?

Regarding my level of play I would say not tournament but not complely casual either.

[Tazar]

I, personally, tend to use Rhinos whenever possible. They're just so useful for so many different things.

It's definitely a subjective taste, but I love my Rhinos.

[Winterwind]

I give Rhinos to all the troops that have close-ranged assault weapons (flamers and meltaguns), and let the ones with longer ranged stuff (plasmaguns) walk. I tend to give all my Rhinos Extra Armour (because a transporter that cannot move isn't much of a transporter, right? ), so they are still at a very affordable 50 points each. I wouldn't bother with any other upgrades, other upgrades would only end up actually making them expensive (though if you are generous and give some of your troops that will not necessarily spend the entire game moving Rhinos as well, Havoc launchers are awesome for their points - the only reason I don't use any on mine is that they spend too much time moving and/or being blown to pieces as they get too close to the enemy line, so they wouldn't get to use them anyway).

[Tazar]

Ah, just found a gaming store 15 minutes away from my college! Oh happy day!

And yeah, I usually run dirt cheap Rhinos, Extra Armor at the most; anything else probably isn't really worth your points for how easily they die.

[Deth Muncher]

While I know this doesn't have MUCH place in the competitive world, I've been thinking of ways to keep an Iron Warriors list still quasi "fluffy" while having all of these B.A. units we've discussed. So:

-While I have the sorceror, the DoT could be some mechanical hoverdisk. The Raptors could be said to be outfitted with brand new overshield generators, a la Halo, to explain their Invulnerable Saves.

-Berzerkers are, as I recall, actually kosher, since IW used to take squads of them.

-Plague and Noise Marines are a little tougher, but I figure Noise Marines could just be special weapons experts, and the Plague Marines could just be even more biomechanically enhanced Marines who are good at chemical warfare.

-Tzeentch-aligned Marines, I think, will be the aforementioned Grey Knights, just Chaos'd up. I'm bollocks at painting, but if I ever get the guys I could show you how I'd convert them at least.

-There's no need to justify Obliterators or gratuitous Mech in an IW list, ever.

[Arcanoi]

I modeled my Iron Warriors Noise and Plague Marines on Obliterator marines, Obliterators without the Terminator Armor. The Noise marines have stormbolters growing out of their arms, with the Blastmaster being a Biovore-esque cannon growing off one's back and the Sonic being a flame-spewing maw-cannon in the chest of the champion. My Plagues used the heads from one of the Forgeworld conversion packs (The Renegade Militia from Vraks, I think. They were oversized for Guardsmen but fit pretty well on Marine bodies) and then I went to town with greenstuff on a basic CSM chassis.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

So a couple of plauge marine squads in rhinos backed up by vindicators. Throw a deamon prince and a unit of nurgle raptors into the mix and it's good to go.

Could work

Edit: Almost forgot. Thanks for the advice

[Wraith]

No. I had a list of things that your army should be prepared for, except I don't know where to find it anymore. Winterwind was the last person to link to it.

You mean this? It's been in the OP at least since the last Thread, if you even need it again.

I remember what goes on in this thread. Because I love you. Like Papa Nurgle.

Gentlemen, I think we have the title for our next Thread.

On a different note: Pure Grey Knight armies are terrifyingly small.

Hopefully, time permitting, I'm going to get a game with my new army this weekend, and I've just discovered that 2000 points nets me a whopping 33 Marines, 2 Dreadnoughts (which I'll probably drop for something else, they're just place-marking until I get more models) and a Land Raider, so I have to say this is going to be a challenge and a half.

And I'm probably going to be playing against Orks. Chancea are I'm going to be outnumbered by Nobs-with-Power Klaws alone, let alone Boys and other things to boot..... Yay!

[Incomp]

On a different note: Pure Grey Knight armies are terrifyingly small.

I have an old grey knight army (not pure, I had an inquisitor and an assassin as well as GKs) which was at I think 1750 points...and 24 models.

[Razaele]

Speaking of list building, I just made a new list that I'm pretty sure Cheesegear is going to frown at. Buuuut, it's worked very well so far in our meta, since most of my enemies deploy mechanized lists and are very fond of Death Star units.

Spoiler

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HQ

Pedro Kantor [175]

Elites

Sternguard Veteran Squad x10 with Combi-Meltas x8, Heavy Flamer x2, Power Fist, Drop Pod with Deathwind Missile Launcher [390]

Sternguard Veteran Squad x10 with Combi-Meltas x8, Heavy Flamer x2, Power Fist, Drop Pod with Deathwind Missile Launcher [390]

Sternguard Veteran Squad x10 with Combi-Meltas x8, Heavy Flamer x2, Power Fist, Drop Pod with Deathwind Missile Launcher [390]

Troops

Scouts x5 with Sniper Rifles x5 [75]

Scouts x5 with Sniper Rifles x5 [75]

Heavy Support

Devastator Squad x5 with Missile Launchers x4, Drop Pod with Deathwind Missile Launcer [205]

Devastator Squad x5 with Missile Launchers x4 [150]

Devastator Squad x5 with Missile Launchers x4 [150]

Total: 2000 points

Basically I just drop 2 Squads of Sternguards on the first turn to nuke whatever large threats my enemy has, Devastators pop transports and such, while the Snipers drink tea around the objectives. If there are any Death Star units still alive, my 3rd squad of Sternguards will most probably be able to take care of them

I took the extra pod for the Devastators because I'm afraid that at some point, my enemies will try and put their entire army in reserve. Which is really really bad for a Drop Pod centered army like mine. I plan on dropping a couple of empty pods somewhere where the large blast templates can do some damage, and then just keeping a squad of Sternguard and the squad of Devastators behind my lines. Then my last 2 squads of Sternguard can come in later, when they (hopefully) have targets.

Honestly though, I have yet to take this list to a tournament, and most of the people I play are somewhere around my level. (Read: Probably a level higher than a newbie)

Are there any glaring weaknesses for this army? What can I do to fix that? What armies will utterly destroy my army?

So guys, as usual criticism, opinions, and any other constructive violent reactions are welcome.

[Tazar]

I have an old grey knight army (not pure, I had an inquisitor and an assassin as well as GKs) which was at I think 1750 points...and 24 models.

Mine clocks in at a whopping ~18-20 models at 1500.

[Arcanoi]

Are there any glaring weaknesses for this army? What can I do to fix that? What armies will utterly destroy my army?

Well, anything that can survive your drop and then assault you will kill you. What are you going to do against Drop Angels? Drop Wolves/Loganwing? Infantry Guard? How do you deal with Assault Terminators? What about 10 of them? How -do- you handle a full-reserve force?

I'd actually suggest dropping 2 Deathwind Launchers and getting another Pod so you can drop all 3 of your SternPods on Turn 1.

In short, I'm not sure if that army can actually work... It's making a hard attempt at Cheesegear, though.

[Winterwind]

Are there any glaring weaknesses for this army? What can I do to fix that? What armies will utterly destroy my army?

So guys, as usual criticism, opinions, and any other constructive violent reactions are welcome.

I think the biggest weakness would be something like a Genestealer cult. Imagine something like 80 Genestealers, part of them Ymgarls, that all start in reserve - the Genestealers flank, the Ymgarls just pop up somewhere. Their arrival boosted by Lictors, of course, and the rest of the army either deepstriking Mawloc-style or dropping with Landing Spores. Your first two Sternguard units will already be sitting there, potentially completely not where they need to be...

And generally speaking, most hordes might prove a serious problem. All those Heavy Flamethrowers and Missile Launchers will help, sure, but if there are 180 Ork Boyz sitting on the other side (and that may cost as little as 1080 points!), I think you may start running into your limits.

[Cheesegear]

And speaking of which, I'm really glad to see Tzeentch Raptors valued so highly here...

Sadly no. What's valued is the Tzeentch Sorcerer on a Disc of Tzeentch. The Raptors are only there as a bodyguard unit. I can't seem to find it, but I'm pretty sure a Marked Character can only be in the same Marked Unit, and that's why the Raptors need to be Tzeentch-aligned, also, a bodyguard-unit that doesn't die is extremely helpful.

I did read Cheesegears and that got me curios. I wanted Nurge in particular not Chaos in general.

That's a bit easier.

Spoiler

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All you really need to know is that Plague Marines are a Troops choice. If, at any point, you think you might want to take something different...Plague Marines are a Troops choice.

What do Plague Marines have?
Toughness 5. Feel No Pain and Defensive Grenades. Their Initiative 3 is not even an issue. They can also take two special weapons regardless of how many models you take. MSU-Meltaguns in Rhinos...If you want to be an a*hole that is.

Anyway, onto everything else...

Daemon Princes of Nurgle are...Not that good. The extra Toughness is nice. But he already has 4 Wounds and Eternal Warrior. And everyone knows that Toughness is only good in Assault. Lascannons, Krak Missiles and Rifles don't really care what your Toughness is. You're taking wounds. Get Wings. Get into Assault.

Tzeentch Princes are Monstrous Creatures throwing out two ranged attacks per turn. And still have the Assault statline of a Daemon Prince anyway...
Slaanesh Princes throw out Lash of Submission.

I guess the only reason to take the Mark of Nurgle on a Prince is for Nurgle's Rot. Which isn't actually that good. I mean, it cuts down the time spent fighting Hormagaunts and Stubborn Guardsmen by about two thirds. But that's really it. Gift of Chaos is fun since you can remove Power Fists that laugh at your extra Toughness.

Chaos Lords; Will your delicate sensibilities allow you to take Abaddon? Maybe not.
Unless you fight Monstrous Creatures - a lot - Plaguebringer isn't that fantastic. You're better off going Undivided for +1 Strength.

If you're taking a lot of Rhinos (you should), its well worth taking Typhus and Deep Striking him into the thick of things with your Icons. Bring him down with Obliterators or Terminators as a Bodyguard-unit for the opponent's following phase (providing you didn't already Wind of Chaos everything to death...) and then start causing havoc.
Okay, Typhus is amazing. Yes. But keep him away from Abaddon, Lysander, Skulltaker, Swarmlord and Mephiston.
Ghazgkull too if he's Waaagh!ing. When he stops, then you can take him.

Sorcerer of Nurgle? No. Take Typhus. Or a Daemon Prince.

Chosen of Nurgle.
Plague Marines get FNP and Defensive Grenades. And are Scoring.

Terminators of Nurgle.
Plague Marines get FNP and Defensive Grenades. And are Scoring.

Possessed
...Are crap. Giving them a really expensive Mark...Really crap.

Chaos Space Marines
These guys take take a Heavy weapon. If we were playing 3.5 and you could take 5-man Lascannon squads, it'd be worth it. But we're not. With the Mark of Nurgle, you want this squad to be at least 7 models strong for the Mark of Nurgle to be worth it. Any less models, and you should be taking Plague Marines instead. They have FNP and Defensive Grenades.

The only reason you would take 7 or more Marines is so you can take 10, for the second special weapon or Heavy weapon (Because nobody follows the Codex Astartes like Chaos Space Marines!). But, you can take two special weapons on Plague Marines regardless of how many you have. And Plague Marines have FNP and Defensive Grenades.

Bikers; Take a Daemon Prince of Nurgle instead. Same number of wounds. Same number of attacks (should have) same speed. The difference is that a Pie Plate will kill all the Bikes, wheras it will only do one wound to a Prince. Also, the Prince is cheaper.

Raptors; Monstrous Creatures can't join units. Sorcerers of Nurgle aren't that good except at doing what Raptors are already good at doing. And a Chaos Lord with a Plaguebringer isn't that good. And Typhus wears Terminator Armour. Ultimately, crap as a Bodyguard-unit because there's nothing to guard. They cost more points than Plague Marines, don't have FNP or Defensive Grenades. And aren't Scoring.

Havocs you shouldn't be taking in the first place, let alone giving them the Mark of Nurgle.

Speaking of list building, I just made a new list that I'm pretty sure Cheesegear is going to frown at.

We'll see...

Spoiler

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Pedro Kantor [175]

Okay.

Sternguard Veteran Squad x10 with Combi-Meltas x8, Heavy Flamer x2, Power Fist, Drop Pod with Deathwind Missile Launcher [390]

Sternguard Veteran Squad x10 with Combi-Meltas x8, Heavy Flamer x2, Power Fist, Drop Pod with Deathwind Missile Launcher [390]

Sternguard Veteran Squad x10 with Combi-Meltas x8, Heavy Flamer x2, Power Fist, Drop Pod with Deathwind Missile Launcher [390]

Didn't I tell you about this already? If your Sternguard are Scoring, you want them to live 'til the end of the battle. They should not be suiciding. Trade the Heavy Flamers for Plasma Cannons.
Drop all the Combi-Meltas and Drop Pods for Razorbacks and Lascannons.

Scouts x5 with Sniper Rifles x5 [75]

Scouts x5 with Sniper Rifles x5 [75]

Yes.

Devastator Squad x5 with Missile Launchers x4, Drop Pod with Deathwind Missile Launcer [205]

Devastator Squad x5 with Missile Launchers x4 [150]

Devastator Squad x5 with Missile Launchers x4 [150]

Err? The extra Drop Pod with Devastators who have Heavy Weapons works for you? This list doesn't need any more than three Drop Pods, or, get five Drop Pods and have all your Sternguard down on the first turn.

I the other Pods can be empties attached to your Devastators.

I took the extra pod for the Devastators because I'm afraid that at some point, my enemies will try and put their entire army in reserve. Which is really really bad for a Drop Pod centered army like mine.

Have the Drop Pods be empties. Solved.

Are there any glaring weaknesses for this army? What can I do to fix that?

When Scatter goes bad, your army is f*d. Don't take Drop Pods. Why do you have four? You should always have odd numbers of Drop Pods. Use the spare points for Locator Beacons.

Dawn of War scenarios.

What armies will utterly destroy my army?

Any list with more than 3 Land Raiders or other Heavy Vehicles. Any list with more than 6 Transports. Other Drop Pod lists. Any list faster than yours. Any list that likes having Outflanking Reserves. Any list that takes mass Infantry where are bad Scatter can make 'minimum safe distance' in one direction be 'off the board'.

So guys, as usual criticism, opinions, and any other constructive violent reactions are welcome.

This army is a potential tournament winner...If you play it right...Which you aren't. The skeleton is correct. Trip-Sternguard, minimum Scouts. The Devastators aren't quite as good as Vinidicators, Predators or Whirlwinds in this list though. The tanks are also cheaper allowing you to take some Attack Bikes with Meltas. I think.

And the Drop Pods are all wrong. The Combi-Meltas are wrong. The Heavy Flamers are wrong. Lascannons with Razorbacks. I swear I've been over this type of list with you before?

[Winterwind]

Sadly no. What's valued is the Tzeentch Sorcerer on a Disc of Tzeentch. The Raptors are only there as a bodyguard unit. I can't seem to find it, but I'm pretty sure a Marked Character can only be in the same Marked Unit, and that's why the Raptors need to be Tzeentch-aligned, also, a bodyguard-unit that doesn't die is extremely helpful.

That used to be the case in the 3/3.5 edition codex, and is still the case for the current Chaos Daemons codex. Current CSM do not have any such limitation though - you could stick Lucius into a Khorne Berzerker or Ahriman into a Plague Marine squad, if you wanted to.

[EndlessWrath]

Ah, just found a gaming store 15 minutes away from my college! Oh happy day!

And yeah, I usually run dirt cheap Rhinos, Extra Armor at the most; anything else probably isn't really worth your points for how easily they die.

I'm an SM player, not a chaos.. but I'll still jump in on the transport discussion.

I actually don't use rhinos that much. I use razorbacks.. now this is for two reasons... I've had huge success with upgraded razorbacks and I don't have lots of models. 2x rhino/razorbacks, 2x 10man tact squads, 1 captain, 1 chaplain, 5 man termi squad, and a dreadnaught. I proxy two predators as well since its even size and I don't play wysiwyg.
I run 1 predator with T-link Lascannon and 1 with the autocannon and sponson heavy bolters. I run 1 T-link assault cannon razorback and 1 T-link Lascannon Razorback. All have Hunterkiller missiles if possible. I stick combat squads with sergeants and flamers in the Razorbacks and move them slowly forward while I blast everything. I've been called out on playing "sissy marines" since I hardly get out of the tanks till close combat units are nearby. I just bomb everything with heavy weaponry till a razorback gets immobilized or shaken, then drop units out. The strategy works well for me.. and yes I keep my 90pt combat squads useless in the tanks, but they are safe, don't give up a killpoint, and possibly grab one nearby if anything comes close. They also cause the tank to be a better target, which means more firepower into that instead of into my Dreadnaught (always heavily equiped.. T-link Lascannon or autocannons or whatever is necessary.) and my predators. The combat squads inside have taken out Disrupter field Scarabs and whatnot before so they haven't been useless, plus they can sit on goals and the tank can still fire. So thats usually my strategy, hence why I don't grab rhinos.

With rhinos I think barebones is the best strategy though. Focus more on the other units and use it only to grab objectives and move your units around. Although for space marines I'd still add hunter killers.. dunno if you can.

EDIT: Cheesegear.. Scattering drop pods is not as bad as it used to be. The worst that can happen is being in a bad position or possibly falling off the table...otherwise they just go to the edge of enemy/friendly models or impassable terrain. Drop pods are not a huge problem in my opinion, it gives an advantage for positioning which is key in a game of strategy. I like it but again, thats my opinion.
-Wrath

[Deth Muncher]

That used to be the case in the 3/3.5 edition codex, and is still the case for the current Chaos Daemons codex. Current CSM do not have any such limitation though - you could stick Lucius into a Khorne Berzerker or Ahriman into a Plague Marine squad, if you wanted to.

Even so, giving the Raptors a 4+ invulnerable helps them shrug off the inevitable pie-plates that will come their way if they can't seem to get into combat fast enough.

[Talkkno]

Are Drop poding space wolfs a good idea?

[Winterwind]

So thats usually my strategy, hence why I don't grab rhinos.

Chaos Space Marines cannot take Razorbacks, so that's not an option. But then, they don't have Combat Squads, either, so they wouldn't benefit as much from them on half their units; the other half can take dual special weapons even at 5 models, so would be hilariously broken if they could.
EDIT: And by 'half', I actually mean "one unit has limitations, and all others can take what they want, when they want, without caring for squad numbers."

With rhinos I think barebones is the best strategy though. Focus more on the other units and use it only to grab objectives and move your units around. Although for space marines I'd still add hunter killers.. dunno if you can.

No, no hunter-killers in the codex. Instead, there are Havoc launchers, which I think are generally speaking superior anyway (S5, AP5, Explosive. 15 points. No, it is not just one-shot. ).

Even so, giving the Raptors a 4+ invulnerable helps them shrug off the inevitable pie-plates that will come their way if they can't seem to get into combat fast enough.

5+. It would only be 4+ if they had a 5+ invulnerable to begin with, which they don't.

Are Drop poding space wolfs a good idea?

Drop poding anything is a good idea.

More seriously though, sure, why not? Wolf Guard can be used in pretty much the same way as Sternguard can (EDIT: when it comes to the usual drop-poding Sternguard. Obviously, they cannot emulate the Sternguard that stands around and shoots its special ammo.).

[Arcanoi]

More seriously though, sure, why not? Wolf Guard can be used in pretty much the same way as Sternguard can (EDIT: when it comes to the usual drop-poding Sternguard. Obviously, they cannot emulate the Sternguard that stands around and shoots its special ammo.).

Except your Wolf Guard are Troops and are also Terminators instead of A2 MEQs.

[Winterwind]

Except your Wolf Guard are Troops and are also Terminators instead of A2 MEQs.

Though of course if you make them Terminators, they not only become more expensive individually, they also take up more space in the drop pod. Whether this would be offset by the better durability or not depends on the enemy you'd be facing.
And them being Troops requires one particular, fairly expensive Special Character. Though I guess except for the "expensive"-part, this is true for Sternguard as well (apart from the difference between 'Troops' and 'scoring').

[Talkkno]

I remember Chessegear saying droppodded Grey Hunters are good.

[Tazar]

Can't really go wrong with Grey Hunters in general, in my experience.

[EndlessWrath]

Chaos Space Marines cannot take Razorbacks, so that's not an option. But then, they don't have Combat Squads, either, so they wouldn't benefit as much from them on half their units; the other half can take dual special weapons even at 5 models, so would be hilariously broken if they could.
EDIT: And by 'half', I actually mean "one unit has limitations, and all others can take what they want, when they want, without caring for squad numbers."

No, no hunter-killers in the codex. Instead, there are Havoc launchers, which I think are generally speaking superior anyway (S5, AP5, Explosive. 15 points. No, it is not just one-shot. ).

I imagined they were different. Still, what do you think of my sissy marines strat? Also.. my new opinion on chaos rhinos is take the extra armor. Havoc launchers are good if you're advancing slowly, but for such a transport you want to move quickly. If you intend to use the havoc launchers, I assume the chaos rhinos work similar to the SM rhinos and have firing points, so put some nice (not heavy) guns inside I suppose. Still, extra armour and move them up.

Drop poding anything is a good idea.

More seriously though, sure, why not? Wolf Guard can be used in pretty much the same way as Sternguard can (EDIT: when it comes to the usual drop-poding Sternguard. Obviously, they cannot emulate the Sternguard that stands around and shoots its special ammo.).

Yes.. Yes drop poding things is a fantastic idea. I think space wolves benefit from it a bit better, as they can jump on the ranged squishies early in the game with zed drop pod and eat them up in assault.. or attack more important targets.

[Cheesegear]

Current CSM do not have any such limitation though - you could stick Lucius into a Khorne Berzerker or Ahriman into a Plague Marine squad, if you wanted to.

Oh...Then maybe a Sorcerer of Tzenntch on a Disc is a bad idea? Put the Assault-Sorcerer in a unit of Berzerkers in a Rhino. With Wings (read the FAQ) for less points than Disc. Forget the Raptors.

Lots of stuff about a Mechanised List

Yep. Mechanised. Read the title of the thread. Of course you've had success with Razorbacks.

Cheesegear.. Scattering drop pods is not as bad as it used to be. The worst that can happen is being in a bad position or possibly falling off the table...otherwise they just go to the edge of enemy/friendly models or impassable terrain.

How is falling off the table not terrible?

Anyway, players with hordes and hordes of models can make that 'minimum Scatter' mean that your Drop Pod goes off the table.

Are Drop poding space wolfs a good idea?

Yes.

I remember Chessegear saying droppodded Grey Hunters are good.

While everyone has told you that Space Wolves in Pods is a good idea, nobody has told you why...

Grey Hunters have dual speacial weapons. Assault weapons. Namely Flamers and Meltaguns. In a 1000 point list I have 3 such units. 2 Meltaguns, 1 Flamer.

So, Grey Hunters are slightly better in Drop Pods because of the extra Assault weapons and no Heavy weapons to slow them down. Blood Angels Assault Squads can do this too, but they don't have Boltguns as well. Which are pretty sweet. As everyone knows.

But, what's super-special awesome about Grey Hunters (and Space Wolves in general) is Counter-Attack. People will Assault pretty much anything that comes out of a Drop Pod (except Tau and maybe Imperial Guard, depending on list), and Counter-Attack makes that okay.

[Winterwind]

I imagined they were different. Still, what do you think of my sissy marines strat?

Makes perfect sense to me, and I actually see the Space Marines I go up against use it quite often, too. They usually have a Land Raider with Hammernators going around killing things, and usually Land Speeders or drop-poding Sternguard to shoot things up, rather than Predators or a Dreadnaught, but other than that, they do it just the same.

Also.. my new opinion on chaos rhinos is take the extra armor. Havoc launchers are good if you're advancing slowly, but for such a transport you want to move quickly. If you intend to use the havoc launchers, I assume the chaos rhinos work similar to the SM rhinos and have firing points, so put some nice (not heavy) guns inside I suppose. Still, extra armour and move them up.

The alternative, if one really wants to make use of that Havoc Launcher, would be taking Daemonic Possession instead of Extra Armour, which costs 5 points more and lowers BS by 1, but allows to ignore crew shaken and crew stunned, rather than just turning crew stunned into crew shaken. With a template weapon, this doesn't matter as much. When I take Havoc Launchers, I tend to get that as well. If the Rhino serves only as transport, ignoring crew shaken doesn't matter, so I leave it at Extra Armour.

And yeah, Chaos Rhinos have firing points just the same as loyalist Rhinos.

As for keeping the Chaos Space Marines in the Rhinos though, you need to remember that firstly CSM are better in assault than loyalists (just like Space Wolves, they also have the bolter, boltpistol, close-combat-weapon combo on just about everything, and most of their troops have something in addition that makes them even better), and secondly at least some of them are more durable than loyalists, too. So, playing sissy Marines isn't as good a strategy for CSM, because it doesn't make use of some of their main advantages.

Oh...Then maybe a Sorcerer of Tzenntch on a Disc is a bad idea? Put the Assault-Sorcerer in a unit of Berzerkers in a Rhino. With Wings (read the FAQ) for less points than Disc. Forget the Raptors.

In my experience, HQ character+berzerkers tends to be utter overkill more often than not. Okay, in my case, "HQ character" stands for an Undivided Chaos Lord, not a Sorcerer, but still - usually, the Berzerkers suffice just fine without support. I think Plague Marines or Noise Marines (geared for assault, so no Blastmaster!) would benefit more from the Assault-Sorcerer's company most of the time.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The alternative, if one really wants to make use of that Havoc Launcher, would be taking Daemonic Possession instead of Extra Armour, which costs 5 points more and lowers BS by 1, but allows to ignore crew shaken and crew stunned, rather than just turning crew stunned into crew shaken.

Daemonic possession stops a vehicle from being a transport. At least it did last time I bought a chaos space marines codex.

[Winterwind]

Daemonic possession stops a vehicle from being a transport. At least it did last time I bought a chaos space marines codex.

...it does?
Dang, I've read so many other codizes and armybooks, I have apparently started to forget my own.
Though to my excuse, I have never used anything with Daemonic Possession so far.

(Away from codex right now, so I cannot check if this rule still exists, or whether it's something from an older codex that didn't make it over, like so many things)

[Tren]

Not in the current codex it doesn't; it even mentions that possession has no impact on the embarked squad's shooting.

[Razaele]

Didn't I tell you about this already? If your Sternguard are Scoring, you want them to live 'til the end of the battle. They should not be suiciding. Trade the Heavy Flamers for Plasma Cannons.
Drop all the Combi-Meltas and Drop Pods for Razorbacks and Lascannons.

Yeah, I do remember that exchange. I do hold your advice in high regard, but I still like testing things for myself. And I did make a few changes to this list from the last time. I took the buttload of Meltas because well, I'm paranoid that way.

Err? The extra Drop Pod with Devastators who have Heavy Weapons works for you? This list doesn't need any more than three Drop Pods, or, get five Drop Pods and have all your Sternguard down on the first turn.

I the other Pods can be empties attached to your Devastators.

Yeah that's what I meant. I'm never deploying the Devastators inside the Drop Pod, I'm just using the empty Pod as something for when my enemy puts all of his vehicles in reserve.

When Scatter goes bad, your army is f*d. Don't take Drop Pods. Why do you have four? You should always have odd numbers of Drop Pods. Use the spare points for Locator Beacons.

Locator Beacons! ...I don't know why I didn't stop and think of that.

Dawn of War scenarios.

Yeah. Which is why I tried to take an extra Drop Pod so that I could hold back two of my Sternguard Veteran Squads in the inevitable Dawn of War scenario.

Any list with more than 3 Land Raiders or other Heavy Vehicles. Any list with more than 6 Transports. Other Drop Pod lists. Any list faster than yours. Any list that likes having Outflanking Reserves. Any list that takes mass Infantry where are bad Scatter can make 'minimum safe distance' in one direction be 'off the board'.

Hmm. Won't the triple Heavy Vehicle build be nullified by my 3 Drop Pods filled with Combi-Melta toting Sternguard?
Those are rather good points though, since I think I'll have a lot of trouble fighting against Razorback spam and the like. Also, I was actually thinking of deploying my Drop Pods empty when it came to fighting massed Infantry, then just deploying my Sternguard as a gunline. The Deathwind missile launchers fire away as the Sternguards take potshots with Kraken rounds. I have yet to try this out though, so I'm not so sure about that plan.

This army is a potential tournament winner...If you play it right...Which you aren't. The skeleton is correct. Trip-Sternguard, minimum Scouts. The Devastators aren't quite as good as Vinidicators, Predators or Whirlwinds in this list though. The tanks are also cheaper allowing you to take some Attack Bikes with Meltas. I think.

Really? Hmm. I was afraid of taking Vindicators or Predators since even if I do take 3 of them, they're going to get nuked pretty fast. I keep facing mechanized armies with a lot of Razorbacks and such, so I thought the triple Devastator spam thing would work better. Plus I was kind of going for an all infantry list so that I can pretty much ignore my enemy's anti tank for the entire game.

Anyway, time to get cracking on a revised list then.