Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

[Winterwind]

Thoughts? Better? Worse?

The squads are much better now (and the formatting is much clearer. Thank you. ). I get 300 for the cost of the Berzerkers though, not 305.

The problem with the character model is that, with a fist, he's going to strike after the Orks - which, considering he's a mere 3+ save W3 model, means against many Ork units he may not strike at all, having already been turned into the next addition to the next trophy pole.

With the 5 points freed up from the miscalculation on the Berzerkers, you can give him dual lightning claws instead, which should perform much, much better. Though probably still not as well as if he had a Daemon Weapon (undivided Daemon Weapons being a good candidate for the best Daemon Weapon there is). If you drop the Jump Pack (he most likely will be travelling with a squad until the last turn when he attacks, so the jump pack may not even end up doing much), you could get him a Daemon Weapon and still have 10 points left over (which you could use to, for example, give the CSMs an Icon of Nurgle instead of Tzeentch, which would probably serve you better).

The only other issue I see with this list is that, most of the time, you are not unlikely to have only two independent units, which doesn't leave room for all that much strategy and flexibility. The games would probably be more interesting for you if you used smaller units so you have more independent squads to play with. Whether you feel this could be an issue or not is up to you to decide.

[Incomp]

Let's deux this... ( sorry)

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HQ
Warsmith Ferrous Buehler - 135 pts
Jump Pack, Power Fist

Argh, no. Not as bad, but still no. You don't want the jump pack. You'll just die on your own. Do what Winterwind said and scrap the other stuff for a daemon weapon, and lose a berserker so he can ride with them.

TROOPS
Rage Squad (9x + 1SC for 10x models) - 305 pts
Skull Champion: Power Fist
+Rhino: Extra Armor

Good.

Marksmen of Tzeentch (9x + 1AC for 10x models) - 310 pts
2x Plasma Gun
Icon of Tzeetnch
Aspiring Champion: Power Fist
+Rhino: Extra Armor

Alright, that's much better. Nurgle would be better than Tzeentch, since most attacks at 750 aren't going to be getting past armor, but otherwise good.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Then where you mount them?

There's no official model, so wherever you want.

I used the ironclad's hunter killers for them.

You could model the DCCW as being on strings if you wanted.

[Winterwind]

...and lose a berserker so he can ride with them.

Right, missed that. Do that, definitely.

If you are wondering what to do with the points freed up that way, my personal suggestion would be a Havoc Launcher for the Rhino in which the CSM squad (which will often want to hang back, after all) will be going (which would make it more of a combatant, too, thus alleviating the problem with not enough units to do something with to some degree). And either meltabombs on the Lord, a second bolter for the Berzerker-Rhino, or Daemonic Possession for the Havoc-Launcher-Rhino).

[Renegade Paladin]

How stupid am I being by playing 6 tank mech?

The list so far:

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HQ: Primaris Psyker: 70

Troops:
Veterans, 3x Melta, Demolitions, Chimera: 185
Veterans, 3x Melta, Demolitions, Chimera: 185

HS:
3x Leman Russ, HB Sponsons on each: 510

3x Leman Russ Demolisher, 1 with Multimelta Sponsons: 525
1475 total.

It will sadly have massive issues against drop-pods. Otherwise, I hope I'm able to shoot out large chunks of opposing armies before they get to melee. I'm still 25 below the max. I could probably take a power fist for one of the units or add an Autocannon team to one of the vets, but I don't see a reason why I'd do that.

You have another heavy support slot; you should use it. Break up the squadrons a little; getting destroyed on an immobilized result sucks.

[Penguinizer]

You have another heavy support slot; you should use it. Break up the squadrons a little; getting destroyed on an immobilized result sucks.

I suppose I should. I just don't like mixing tank types inside squadrons. Largely due to the range differences. Luckily, since my tanks are scratch built, I can mod one of the demolishers into a normal Leman Russ when I get the chance. I might do that.

[Deth Muncher]

A brief note: I don't actually have a Nurgle Banner, which is why I've been pushing for the Tzeentch one. However, as was pointed out, I don't actually need the banner anyway, since they likely won't be facing power-attacks.

750 Points List: Attempt Tree

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HQ
Warsmith Ferrous Buehler - 130pts
Daemon Weapon

TROOPS

Rage Squad (9x Berzerkers) - 224 pts
+Rhino

Shooty Squad (9x CSM + 1x AC for 10x) - 270pts
2x Plasmaguns
+Rhino: Havoc Launcher

HEAVY
Vindicator - 125pts

Total: 749

Now I have a heavy choice. I am okay with this.

[Incomp]

Let's TRI this again

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Your math is off again. You're at 724 points, not 749; the CSM squad is 245 points, not 270. (Protip: calculators.) There are a number of things you could be spending this on, as you'll see.

Warsmith Ferrous Buehler - 130pts
Daemon Weapon

Yes. Good.

Rage Squad (9x Berzerkers) - 224 pts
+Rhino

A skull champion would be nice, especially if he got a 'fist. Otherwise, good.

Shooty Squad (9x CSM + 1x AC for 10x) - 270pts
2x Plasmaguns
+Rhino: Havoc Launcher

Works fine. I would transfer the champion to the Berserkers. (You could then use the spare points to give him a power fist.)

Vindicator - 125pts

Sure. Possession is awesome on vindicators, but at 750 points you're either not being injured or dead for sure. (They probably won't have much anti tank shooting, but a power claw will pop that thing like wet tissue paper.)

[Renegade Paladin]

I suppose I should. I just don't like mixing tank types inside squadrons. Largely due to the range differences. Luckily, since my tanks are scratch built, I can mod one of the demolishers into a normal Leman Russ when I get the chance. I might do that.

You needn't make it three groups of two; you could just split off one tank to go on its own. And if you do this, those extra 25 points would pay for making one of the Demolishers into an Executioner.

[Turcano]

Power Fist might be a waste of points. Also - do you have anything else deepstriking in the smaller version? If not, do not pay for Locator then.

Power fists are my main anti-armor/CQC weapons, so I'm not certain if that's a good idea. Also, I'm not sure if taking out the locator beacon in the 1000-point list will do much, as there isn't a whole lot that I can do with the ten points that can't wait for the 1500-point list, when I'd have to put it back in anyway.

Ok. You might consider 1-2 with Claws, though.

I remember having some lightning claws in my first list and they got cut out.

Good, but you should keep ML. Also, Melta Bombs on something changing back might be a waste of points.

Yeah, in retrospect melta bombs would be pretty stupid on a specialized long-range squad. Unfortunately, to keep the missile launcher, I need to cut something else, and the most likely candidate is a scout.

No. Not even worth the time converting.

Yeah, that was put in only because I had five points to throw away; I finagled a bit and added another scout instead in the edit.

Land Raider Achilles, which I mentioned, is the best variant, if you can bear people wanting to punch you after they see what it can do.

*Checks stats for LR Achilles*

Ooh, I want. Too bad I'd probably never get to use it, since I sincerely doubt anyone would let me use it for normal games.

[EndlessWrath]

I just got some shiny new 40k Spehss Mahreens for christmas and I've been trying a few new things.

What are the general opinions on Cato Sicarius? I played him today and it worked out great. 2v1 blood angels + orks vs Me. Cato worked out well although I didn't exactly do too much with him. He shot up a deffkopta, beheaded a Warboss in mega-armour and wiped out a boys mob by himself... Which I thought was awesome. That sounds like a lot, but it really was just some good roles, whilst other characters did the majority of the work. Still, Upgraded tactical squad, getting a better chance of seizing the init and the higher leadership seems to assist making this captain worth his 200pts. General opinion, is he?

I've made a few decisions as of late as to preferences. I love shooty marines... so..

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-I've decided to use Normal Terminators and not assault terminators. I like the shooting and the Cyclone launcher, plus they can beat up vehicles. Until I get a land raider, I'm not going to run hammernators again, even when deepstriking.
-Scout squads and Tactical squads are pretty legit. I know lots of people love picking up the Lascannons on Tact squads.. but I've ran into too many instances where the Frag missile was a worthwhile addition and a key attack to end game victory. This is maybe caused by ridiculous good luck in rolling (maybe I'm an ork my dice are blue after all...) but I have blown up a good amount of infantry with it. Don't get me wrong, I religiously use the Krak missile, but what I'm saying is I've gotten into situations where firing a weak blast template is far more important than the higher strength lower ap of a lascannon and not only do I come across these situations, but I hit them a lot.

questions:

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I have yet to try scout squads with anything other than H.Bolter and Snipers. Are any of the other choices worth it? (and don't say bikes -__- I can't use them)
I've gotten a group of Jet pack assaulty marines which I can make veteran Vangards or assault troops (or both if I wish to magnetize). Are either of them worth it? I've never used fast attack assaulty marines. Suggestions?
Is Sicarius a good choice for an IC? The others haven't really been too impressive for me.

-Wrath

[Turcano]

Are any of the other choices worth it? (and don't say bikes -__- I can't use them)

I thought Scout Bike squads were teh suck anyways.

[Cheesegear]

Hey, it's not my fault you use obsolete, wrong sources

You mean as opposed to Rules = Fluff. Models = Fluff. RPG Mechanics = Fluff. Apparently even Dawn of War = Fluff.

Though, you seem to not follow them anymore these days. Just look at your love for Index Astartes

I haven't cited Index Astartes in a long, long time. The Horus Heresy/30K books makes them redundant and even incomplete. Such as how, when and why the Traitor Primarchs turned to Chaos...And how none of them actually set out to kill Daddy; Most of them just wanted to break all His stuff and/or take it for their own. One or two of them don't even want to do that.

I don't know if that makes GK cheap, or even more cool, though.

Nathaniel Garro is the greatest Space Marine ever. So, more cool. Obviously.

What are the general opinions on Cato Sicarius?

I think he works great as a Secondary HQ. Mostly because he does everything he does without losing Combat Tactics. Which means you can use another character that does lose Combat Tactics, and still use Sicarius to his full potential.

In casual games, he works great. Very fun HQ unit. Competitively? There are much, much stronger choices to be made.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I don't see what's so good about the Achilles. Sure you can't kill it, but its useless as a transport and its guns have little to no synergy.

For 300 points you can have three thunderfire cannons. Sure they'll die at lot easier, but they'll probably do more damage first.

Its still not a land raider crusader.

It still has no invulnerability to monstrous creatures.

[Cheesegear]

I don't see what's so good about the Achilles. Sure you can't kill it, but its useless as a transport and its guns have little to no synergy.

It also gets used in Apocalypse. Thunderfire Cannons don't really do a whole lot in Apocalypse. Second, its immune to Melta and Lance weapons. Except, once again, this is Apocalypse. Melta and Lance weapons aren't the things that're going to kill you.

At least in Apocalypse, a Land Raider Ares will actually do something.

[Closet_Skeleton]

It also gets used in Apocalypse. Thunderfire Cannons don't really do a whole lot in Apocalypse. Second, its immune to Melta and Lance weapons. Except, once again, this is Apocalypse. Melta and Lance weapons aren't the things that're going to kill you.

At least in Apocalypse, a Land Raider Ares will actually do something.

It would probably just get ignored in Apocalypse. If it can absorb Strength D shots for a few turns with its -1 on the damage chart rule its probably done its job.

The Achillies is the monk of the land raiders. It just runs around not dying but isn't really contributing anything?

[hamishspence]

Actually, yes ... for Codex Marines.

Drop Pod Capacity 12. No restrictions on Terminator Armour going into drop pods.

Buy a 10-man squad a Drop Pod and you can still fit a Terminator-armoured IC in there.

For other chapters (ie. Blood Angels) it doesn't work so well, 'cause capacity 10 only. But them's the breaks ...

And even they can choose to buy a 5 man squad, bulk it up to 8 men, and add a Terminator to lead them. So can Space Wolves.

Main disadvantage is- ordinary Tactical squads can't take a heavy weapon (or second special weapon in the case of Grey Hunters) since that requires a 10 man squad. Only standard Space Marines, with their 12 man drop pod- can field a full squad + attached Terminator in a pod.

S

[Klose_the_Sith]

I thought Scout Bike squads were teh suck anyways.

I can crack open most given battle tanks (Outflank + 6 Str 6 Shots on SA) and then run havoc around your lines, probably costing you an objective.

There is nothing suck about Scout Bikes.

And even they can choose to buy a 5 man squad, bulk it up to 8 men, and add a Terminator to lead them. So can Space Wolves.

Main disadvantage is- ordinary Tactical squads can't take a heavy weapon (or second special weapon in the case of Grey Hunters) since that requires a 10 man squad. Only standard Space Marines, with their 12 man drop pod- can field a full squad + attached Terminator in a pod.

S

Is exactly what I was getting at, yes

The other problem is that with a squad of only 8 men, combat SQUADDING is out of the question. This can be a problem if you're running Melta-Sternguard or the like.

[Trixie]

A brief note: I don't actually have a Nurgle Banner, which is why I've been pushing for the Tzeentch one.

I thought you don't want to completely own him :P

Power fists are my main anti-armor/CQC weapons, so I'm not certain if that's a good idea.

It's a suicide squad. Five men. If they won't be shot to pieces the turn they drop, the remnants are very unlikely to survive in assault long enough to use the 'fist.

Also, I'm not sure if taking out the locator beacon in the 1000-point list will do much, as there isn't a whole lot that I can do with the ten points that can't wait for the 1500-point list, when I'd have to put it back in anyway.

Maybe that missile?

I remember having some lightning claws in my first list and they got cut out.

Eh, since you don't have Vulcan, you might experiment with 1-2 magnetized ones. Removing a few models before they can kill hammernators is nice.

I don't see what's so good about the Achilles. Sure you can't kill it, but its useless as a transport and its guns have little to no synergy.

First - 60" range. Which can be used as a defensive weapon. Second, firepower second only to monoliths and superheavies. Third, you can kill all types of enemies, no matter if they're horde/MEQ/mech. Not to mention the ability to give them status effects. Slowing down that titan or Gargant to a crawl? Why not?

Transport capacity is for Techmarine squad, to make it really impossible to kill. If you want to protect anything else, well, just run it behind LR, protection will be almost as good.

For 300 points you can have three thunderfire cannons. Sure they'll die at lot easier, but they'll probably do more damage first.

300 points going down to one bolter shot that got past the armor? Which cost 2x in real life $ than Achilles? I don't think so.

Its still not a land raider crusader.

Yup, it's a lot better. 6x S4 shots vs 4 S4-6 blasts? I know which I want.

It still has no invulnerability to monstrous creatures.

With 4x S6 shots, and 2x S8, from 24", I'd expect it to kill anything that is not superheavy (and it can kill even those, too) in 1-2 rounds, tops. Or slow it down and watch it crawling while you slowly pull the trigger.

At least in Apocalypse, a Land Raider Ares will actually do something.

One gun with abysmally short range, no transport capacity, and a fair chance of template scattering back into Ares. And, anything capable of killing Achilles can easily kill 2-3 Ares in the same time.

No thanks

[Closet_Skeleton]

The other problem is that with a squad of only 8 men, combat tactics is out of the question. This can be a problem if you're running Melta-Sternguard or the like.

If you have 8 men there's little point using combat tactics. You might as well combat tactics and then put only half and the character in the drop pod.

[Cheesegear]

One gun with abysmally short range, no transport capacity, and a fair chance of template scattering back into Ares....

That doesn't even happen normally in a real game with Vindicators. Let alone Land Raiders.

[Turcano]

It's a suicide squad. Five men. If they won't be shot to pieces the turn they drop, the remnants are very unlikely to survive in assault long enough to use the 'fist.

The Sternguards have the Librarian attached to them, so they're a bit more survivable, but the Librarian can do the heavy lifting in a potential assault, so... yeah. I guess I can drop the power fist from that unit.

Eh, since you don't have Vulcan, you might experiment with 1-2 magnetized ones. Removing a few models before they can kill hammernators is nice.

I'll buy two boxes and put lightning claws on two of them. It won't affect the list pointswise.

So, revised again:

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(1000 pts)

HQ
Librarian – 140 pts (attached to Sternguard)
Terminator Armor, Storm Shield
Force Dome, Gate of Infinity

Elites
Sternguard Veteran Squad x5 – 195 pts
Combi-Melta x5
+ Drop Pod w/Locator Beacon

Troops
Tactical Squad x10 – 215 pts
Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Sergeant: Power Fist

Tactical Squad x10 – 215 pts
Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Sergeant: Power Fist

Scout Squad x6 – 108 pts
Sniper Rifles x4, Missile Launcher

Fast Attack
Assault Squad x5 – 125 pts
Sergeant: Power Fist

(1500 pts)

Elites
Terminator Assault Squad x5 – 200 pts
Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields

Troops
Additions to Scout Squad – 102 pts
Sgt. Telion, Scouts x4
Sniper Rifles x4

Fast Attack
Attack Bike Squad x2 – 100 pts
Multi-Melta x2

Attack Bike Squad x2 – 100 pts
Multi-Melta x2

Edit: At 2000 points, I'm thinking of adding a second HQ unit and I'm torn between Darnath Lysander and Vulkan He'Stan. He'Stan would improve my attack bikes and Hammernators, but Lysander's such a melee monster and can be attached to the terminator assault squad with no complications.

[Klose_the_Sith]

If you have 8 men there's little point using combat tactics. You might as well combat tactics and then put only half and the character in the drop pod.

Wait, I meant combat squads >.<

ARGJLJSDglkJN

[Closet_Skeleton]

300 points going down to one bolter shot that got past the armor? Which cost 2x in real life $ than Achilles? I don't think so.

You'd need 3, since they're seperate units. You also likely have a 3+ cover save, if you're even in line of sight at all.

You're also unlikely to be in bolter range.

Yup, it's a lot better. 6x S4 shots vs 4 S4-6 blasts? I know which I want.

You don't take a Land Raider Crusader to fire 6 shots (it actually has 12 twin-linked shots and 4 assault cannon shots).

A Land Raider Crusader is one of the best transports in the game and can infantry and tanks.

An Achilles is an overpriced metal box with bad weapon choices. That still gets melta bombed.

At least it can shoot its thunderfire cannon at a differant target to the multimeltas, otherwise it would be utterly useless.

Multimeltas are still more useful on attack bikes or land speeders.

Wait, I meant combat squads >.<

So did I.

[Penguinizer]

You needn't make it three groups of two; you could just split off one tank to go on its own. And if you do this, those extra 25 points would pay for making one of the Demolishers into an Exterminator.

The Exterminator sucks. If I wanted Autocannons, I'd spend 75 points on Hydra Autocannons. They've got less armor, but the same weaponry for half the price.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

You needn't make it three groups of two; you could just split off one tank to go on its own. And if you do this, those extra 25 points would pay for making one of the Demolishers into an Exterminator.

The Exterminator sucks. If I wanted Autocannons, I'd spend 75 points on Hydra Autocannons. They've got less armor, but the same weaponry for half the price.

And unless I've missed something, Exterminators are cheaper than Demolishers.

Unless of course you give the exterminator HB sponson, Pintle-mounted heavy stubber oan extra armour. Then the exterminator would cost 30 p more then the demolisher.

However I guess you meant the Executioner since that cost 25 p more than the Demolisher. But if that's the case then don't, it's not worth the points. Not even close...

[Deth Muncher]

Let's TRI this again
Your math is off again. You're at 724 points, not 749; the CSM squad is 245 points, not 270. (Protip: calculators.) There are a number of things you could be spending this on, as you'll see.

*A skull champion would be nice, especially if he got a 'fist. Otherwise, good.

*Works fine. I would transfer the champion to the Berserkers. (You could then use the spare points to give him a power fist.)

*Sure. Possession is awesome on vindicators, but at 750 points you're either not being injured or dead for sure. (They probably won't have much anti tank shooting, but a power claw will pop that thing like wet tissue paper.)

The shooty squad actually is 270, I just fail at writing things. >_< It should have read:
Shooty Squad (9x + 1AC = 10x) - 270pts
2x Plasmagun
AC: Power Fist
+Rhino: Havoc Launcher

* Rage Squad doesn't have a Champ because the Warsmith is going to be attached to it.
* See above, although I COULD switch the squads around a smidge to give the Rage Squad 8 guys plus an Skull Champ + PF and make Shooty Squad not have a champion, but eh.
* Yeah. Not really as worried, as the only thing he MIGHT have to pop the Vindi would be Power Klaws (less likely) or Deffkoptas (slightly more likely). In the event of Deffkoptas, the Shooty Squad gets to dedicate their action doubletapping into them (hopefully) and (hopefully) taking them down.

[Trixie]

You also likely have a 3+ cover save

Three shots then. Or still one, as rolling poorly needs to happen once. They die to a sneeze.

Let me put it that way - these units have similar targets. The same Codex, so we can compare them without the old, tired excuse of not comparing units from different codices. I put LR Ac on the table, you put three Thunderfires. Who wins?

if you're even in line of sight at all.

So, in order to survive you put them in place where they can't fire? And this helps... how exactly?

You're also unlikely to be in bolter range.

At the points we're talking about, everything is in range.

(it actually has 12 twin-linked shots).

You mean zero. Because, in order to fire 12 shots, you need to be deep within assault/melta range of Dangerous Things [tm]. Who reduce that 12 shots to scrap.

And, how this beats 16-30 S6 hits, I have no idea.

A Land Raider Crusader is one of the best transports in the game and can infantry and tanks.

Can what? Transport tanks?

Attack tanks?

If so, a 'tank' has AV 10-11 max.

An Achilles is an overpriced metal box with bad weapon choices.

Add every option it has to Crusader. What? Crusader is now more expensive? Less powerful? And has no invulnerability?

The defense rests.

That still gets melta bombed.

Ok, I'll bite. Name one unit capable of wading through the 60" range and still be capable of attacking. There is no such unit.

Ok, except one. Vanguard Vets. With jumpacks and bombs. They'll be far more expensive than LR Ac, and might mishap, and no one ever takes them, and even forcing you to take them is a victory, but I guess they'll be capable of doing it.

At least it can shoot its thunderfire cannon at a differant target to the multimeltas, otherwise it would be utterly useless.

Yup, 2x TL gun IDing all kinds of things from 24" is completely useless

I hope my next codex will have more of such uselessness :P

In fact, against elite infantry, they alone outperform the entire Crusader, even if you put Storm Bolter on top of it.

Multimeltas are still more useful on attack bikes or land speeders.

Again, they die to bolters, unlike LR Ac, and have a very different role.

[Arcanoi]

Three shots then. Or still one, as rolling poorly needs to happen once. They die to a sneeze.

Three sneezes.

Let me put it that way - these units have similar targets. The same Codex, so we can compare them without the old, tired excuse of not comparing units from different codices. I put LR Ac on the table, you put three Thunderfires. Who wins?

The LR Achilles isn't really sure what it's doing. It's got a TFC... and Multimeltas. And a crappy transport capacity. And is 300 points. Just take a TFC and buy some more meltas that will actually be melting things.

So, in order to survive you put them in place where they can't fire? And this helps... how exactly?

TFCs actually force your opponent to spend heavy/long ranged weapons on hitting something with 3+ cover. A Landraider achilles is the same firepower for three times the points.

You mean zero. Because, in order to fire 12 shots, you need to be deep within assault/melta range of Dangerous Things [tm]. Who reduce that 12 shots to scrap.

Oh, look. The Crusader is where it wants to be. Near the enemy. Because it is a land raider. Which is an Assault Vehicle. So it is transporting things.

And, how this beats 16-30 S6 hits, I have no idea.

Unlikely. You might get 12-16 hits. Good, yes. But you spent 300 points on it.

Can what? Transport tanks?

Attack tanks?

If so, a 'tank' has AV 10-11 max.

I believe he meant 'ram' tanks. Which is S9.

[QUOTE=Trixie;10053405]
Add every option it has to Crusader. What? Crusader is now more expensive? Less powerful? And has no invulnerability?

Unnecessary. The Crusader achieves its purpose admirably. The Achilles has no purpose, other than to be an AV14 TFC for three times the price with no cover save.

Ok, I'll bite. Name one unit capable of wading through the 60" range and still be capable of attacking. There is no such unit.

Ok, except one. Vanguard Vets. With jumpacks and bombs. They'll be far more expensive than LR Ac, and might mishap, and no one ever takes them, and even forcing you to take them is a victory, but I guess they'll be capable of doing it.

Forgeworld. The Lucius Pattern Drop-Pod is everywhere.

Yup, 2x TL gun IDing all kinds of things from 24" is completely useless

It is when you payed 200 points for it.

I hope my next codex will have more of such uselessness

I hope there's less shiny traps in my next codex. I really do.

In fact, against elite infantry, they alone outperform the entire Crusader, even if you put Storm Bolter on top of it.

Against Elite infantry, you could do better. With Hammernators. Or hell, landspeeders.

Again, they die to bolters, unlike LR Ac, and have a very different role.

They have 60" range. And are 100 points. And yes, they have a very different role. TFCs suppress infantry. LR Achilles suppress infantry for three times the cost.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

Trixie I won't lie you, make a pretty good case. I'm however still not convinced.

But you do realize that the chance of a bolter killing a Land speeder with one shot is exatctly the same as that of a melta killing an Achillies with one shot?

Sure bolters a more common, but if you are going to make claims that it's easy to kill AV10 with S4 then it's easy to kill AV14 with S8.

Edit