Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

[Trixie]

But you do realize that the chance of a bolter killing a Land speeder with one shot is exatctly the same as that of a melta killing an Achillies with one shot?

Technically - yes, except for FI rule adding -1 to damage roll, while LS has +1 (so it goes down far easier).

But, even with that said, Tactical Squad has 1 melta shot within 12". It has 20 bolter shots in the same range, which is the problem, as they will actually damage something

Three sneezes.

Ok - three

The LR Achilles isn't really sure what it's doing. It's got a TFC... and Multimeltas.

You know... I thought about this, and I'm not sure how you could propose better loadout than that. Most universal anti-horde/MC hull gun and the best melta as sponsons? How do you propose it was better?

The only way I can think of is: TL sponson Psycannons, TL hull multi-melta, and pintle-mounted lascannon. But, only one army could get it.

And a crappy transport capacity.

Actually, 6 isn't that bad. Second best C:SM assault unit (captain+command squad) is 6 units. That also counts for other SM codices with captains and retinues. Wolves can deploy Arjac and 4 Wolf Guard - also nice unit. You could also deploy techmarine inside, making LR Ac almost indestructible.

If you need more than that, bigger units can get almost as good defense by running after LR, in blind spot.

And is 300 points.

As is any LR with these options. So? 300 points isn't that much in 2K+ games and Apocalypse.

TFCs actually force your opponent to spend heavy/long ranged weapons on hitting something with 3+ cover.

No, all I can see them doing is to occupy the attention of the outflankers or deepstrikes for about two seconds.

LR Ac is giant, actual fire magnet that will absorb more fire than the rest of your army while surviving it.

Oh, look. The Crusader is where it wants to be. Near the enemy. Because it is a land raider. Which is an Assault Vehicle. So it is transporting things.

Which is moot, as you cannot do anything useful with carried unit when you move fast enough to finally get into range of its guns :P

Unlikely. You might get 12-16 hits. Good, yes. But you spent 300 points on it.

Yes, unlikely, but as unlikely as perfect, shodinger movement required for Crusader to be perfectly effective.

Ok, 14 (to use yor number) S6 hits, plus 2 S8 hits - isn't that equivalent of 8 Hammernators against most units, who cost 320 points? My point is, it's only expensive in vacuum.

Unnecessary. The Crusader achieves its purpose admirably. The Achilles has no purpose, other than to be an AV14 TFC for three times the price with no cover save.

Ok, let's check: LR Ac is 300 points.

Thunderfire? 100. 2x Landspeeder with Melta? 120. Add 15 points per gun upgrade to make them TL, you're looking at 250 points. Of AV 10 vehicles. Add cheap-as-dirt upgrade from AV 10 to 14 (20 points per vehicle) - and now you're looking at 310 points. And you miss on invulnerability, extra armor, or transport capacity.

Overpriced? A tank capable of killing most IG and ork superheavies virtually unchallenged? I'd dispute that :P

Forgeworld. The Lucius Pattern Drop-Pod is everywhere.

A.k.a. the only unit that stays banned even if IA is allowed?

Ok, I'll grant that one. Still, S10 with 3 attacks means less than one penetration, which can be dropped to glance levels with invul - meaning, you just paid (?) 240+ pts who die to TL melta if you won't roll exceptionally good. Debatable effective.

I hope there's less shiny traps in my next codex. I really do.

You don't - they kicked Thunderfires out of all SM codices after vanilla, after all

Against Elite infantry, you could do better. With Hammernators. Or hell, landspeeders.

Read - units who will be poor against all other threats LR Ac can address?

Sure, when you're paying 200+ pts for unit of specialists, they'll do better than 300 pts generalist unit, but only in one situation. There is nothing more effective/universal for its cost in SM Codex.

They have 60" range. And are 100 points. And yes, they have a very different role. TFCs suppress infantry. LR Achilles suppress infantry for three times the cost.

And kills tanks. And actually lives past 2nd turn. And fire-magnets. And transports. And... and... and... :P

[lord_khaine]

They have 60" range. And are 100 points. And yes, they have a very different role. TFCs suppress infantry. LR Achilles suppress infantry for three times the cost.

The problem though, is that its much harder to supress back.

[Arcanoi]

Trixie, do you actually play 40k? Not out of disrespect, but a lot of your arguments come from a vacuum.

You know... I thought about this, and I'm not sure how you could propose better loadout than that. Most universal anti-horde/MC hull gun and the best melta as sponsons? How do you propose it was better?

Thunderfire and two Assault Cannons for 320 points. Or two Heavy Bolters for 280. That way the guns are actually doing the same thing.

Actually, 6 isn't that bad. Second best C:SM assault unit (captain+command squad) is 6 units.

Command squads are mediocre. I suppose, in a codex with mostly crappy assault units, yes, they are the second best assault unit. And are outstripped massively by the first.

That also counts for other SM codices with captains and retinues. Wolves can deploy Arjac and 4 Wolf Guard - also nice unit. You could also deploy techmarine inside, making LR Ac almost indestructible.

10 > 6. Four more Hammernators is 12 more attacks.

If you need more than that, bigger units can get almost as good defense by running after LR, in blind spot.

And are slower. And you're only shooting one gun. Congratulations.

As is any LR with these options. So? 300 points isn't that much in 2K+ games and Apocalypse.

300 points is 15% of your points in 2k, and 10% in 3k. It doesn't suddenly become less of a waste of points. It justs means your opponent can ignore it longer because he has better things to shoot at.

No, all I can see them doing is to occupy the attention of the outflankers or deepstrikes for about two seconds.

Oh god, I hope the outflankers and deepstrikers are going for my Land Speeders. That would make me so happy.

LR Ac is giant, actual fire magnet that will absorb more fire than the rest of your army while surviving it.

It is not a fire magnet. Any more than a Monolith is a fire magnet.

Which is moot, as you cannot do anything useful with carried unit when you move fast enough to finally get into range of its guns :P

The Land Raider crusader can move 6" and fire all of its guns 24", or 12" and fire its Assault Cannon.

Yes, unlikely, but as unlikely as perfect, shodinger movement required for Crusader to be perfectly effective.

It's unlikely that your two Multimeltas firing at 24" are going to accomplish anything either.

Ok, 14 (to use yor number) S6 hits, plus 2 S8 hits - isn't that equivalent of 8 Hammernators against most units, who cost 320 points? My point is, it's only expensive in vacuum.

Hammernators ignore armor, and roast ICs. And are actual fire magnets.

Ok, let's check: LR Ac is 300 points.

Thunderfire? 100. 2x Landspeeder with Melta? 120. Add 15 points per gun upgrade to make them TL, you're looking at 250 points. Of AV 10 vehicles. Add cheap-as-dirt upgrade from AV 10 to 14 (20 points per vehicle) - and now you're looking at 310 points. And you miss on invulnerability, extra armor, or transport capacity.

Yes, you can get four TL MMs for the cost of your Achilles. They'll actually get their Melta bonus, and actually make your opponent worry about them.

Overpriced? A tank capable of killing most IG and ork superheavies virtually unchallenged? I'd dispute that :P

What. 2 S8 attacks does not kill Superheavies.

A.k.a. the only unit that stays banned even if IA is allowed?

Ok, I'll grant that one. Still, S10 with 3 attacks means less than one penetration, which can be dropped to glance levels with invul - meaning, you just paid (?) 240+ pts who die to TL melta if you won't roll exceptionally good. Debatable effective.

Ironclad (Negates your Invul) + Lucius = 200ish points. And 4 attacks.

Read - units who will be poor against all other threats LR Ac can address?

Like what? Hammernators eat light infantry and are better against vehicles. Landspeeders can take a Heavy flamer if you're running Vulkan.

Sure, when you're paying 200+ pts for unit of specialists, they'll do better than 300 pts generalist unit, but only in one situation. There is nothing more effective/universal for its cost in SM Codex.

Four Vulkan'd Landspeeders.

And kills tanks. And actually lives past 2nd turn. And fire-magnets. And transports. And... and... and... :P

Does not kill tanks. Does live past second turn. Is not a fire-magnet. Can kill transports, after they get close enough to have delivered their cargo. Anything else?

[Trixie]

Trixie, do you actually play 40k? Not out of disrespect, but a lot of your arguments come from a vacuum.

What, isn't it obvious I never hold the Codex in my hands? :P

Thunderfire and two Assault Cannons for 320 points. Or two Heavy Bolters for 280. That way the guns are actually doing the same thing.

You mean... nothing?

You're comparing 1.5 S8 hit to 3 S5. Or 4 S6. Which are only good against hordes, but any non-30-ork unit was already removed from table by Thunderfire. Against elites/MC/tanks, S8 is better.

If that was twin-linked AC, maybe, but still, you take away a big hunk of functionality giving little in return.

And are slower. And you're only shooting one gun. Congratulations.

Wait, what?

300 points is 15% of your points in 2k, and 10% in 3k. It doesn't suddenly become less of a waste of points. It justs means your opponent can ignore it longer because he has better things to shoot at.

Such as?

Oh god, I hope the outflankers and deepstrikers are going for my Land Speeders. That would make me so happy.

No, they'll blow that 300 pts of Thunderfires off the table instead before they do anything. Making you play 1700 pts vs 2000. Much better, isn't it?

It is not a fire magnet. Any more than a Monolith is a fire magnet.

If they don't fire, good, it can close and do some real damage

It's unlikely that your two Multimeltas firing at 24" are going to accomplish anything either.

So... 24" is little range, as you won't go that close... but for the opposing Crusader, assault distance, or even better, ramming distance, is normal and achievable.

Unless Mechanicus invented teleporting raiders, either LR Crusader is completely worthless in most cases then, or Achilles can actually close and blow up these two "better" Crusaders in one turn :P

What. 2 S8 attacks does not kill Superheavies.

Name one [that doesn't cost twice+ the cost of Achilles] that can take 4 S6 shots, then 2 S8/2d6.

Ironclad (Negates your Invul) + Lucius = 200ish points. And 4 attacks.

Two hits, 0.66 penetrations, 0.2178, halved again for Invul.

You just threw 220+ pts on 10% chance they stop the tank, being almost certainly slagged in return if they fail.

The fact you had commit 10% of your points against so unfavorable target, instead of other transports, with 90% chance of losing them instead, is in itself a victory.

Like what? Hammernators eat light infantry

You asked me if I played WH... and then, you named one single thing best suited to kill them in most armies as easy target. Um...

You don't want to know what happens when you throw hammernators against [less than their points] number of orks or 'gaunts.

Four Vulkan'd Landspeeders.

So... You spend 475+ pts, and you claim they're more effective than 300 pts?

For 60% price hike, you get 4 marginally more flexible units that die to bolters, and are giant magnet to anything S6-8.

I guess they can attack more than one target, but in most cases, so can Achilles.

Does live past second turn.

Yes, if nothing can see it, as originally claimed

Can kill transports

Very poorly.

[Renegade Paladin]

The Exterminator sucks. If I wanted Autocannons, I'd spend 75 points on Hydra Autocannons. They've got less armor, but the same weaponry for half the price.

Curse them for having synonymous names! I meant the Executioner. Actually looking and seeing what costs 25 more points than a Demolisher should have told you that, though.

However I guess you meant the Executioner since that cost 25 p more than the Demolisher. But if that's the case then don't, it's not worth the points. Not even close...

The hell its not. It can kill everything, without the Demolisher's abysmally short range. Besides, he's got the points sitting around doing nothing else anyway; it's not like he's losing out on something by spending them when he otherwise wouldn't.

[Penguinizer]

The hell its not. It can kill everything, without the Demolisher's abysmally short range. Besides, he's got the points sitting around doing nothing else anyway; it's not like he's losing out on something by spending them when he otherwise wouldn't.

Those also suck, except for different reasons.

Demolisher's 24-inch range doesn't mean too much when the tables are 48*48.

With the usual 10-12 inch deployment and a 6 inch move, you can get nearly anything into range. The STR 10 and larger template means you are more likely to kill most things. The likelyhood of killing tanks is superior with the Demolisher. Even though the plasma cannon shoots twice, it's only STR 8. STR 10 ordnance is much more useful.

[Renegade Paladin]

Those also suck, except for different reasons.

Demolisher's 24-inch range doesn't mean too much when the tables are 48*48.

With the usual 10-12 inch deployment and a 6 inch move, you can get nearly anything into range. The STR 10 and larger template means you are more likely to kill most things. The likelyhood of killing tanks is superior with the Demolisher. Even though the plasma cannon shoots twice, it's only STR 8. STR 10 ordnance is much more useful.

Three times; read your codex. It wins me games, because the winningest player around here fields a no-vehicle (except drop pods) Space Wolves army with Thunderwolf Cavalry and Terminators out the wazoo. It really depends on circumstances and your opponent, which is why I have both Demolisher and Executioner cannons magnetized on my Demolisher turret; in the majority of cases stating that "this weapon/vehicle/weapon combination sucks" and never considering it again without taking circumstances into account is... ill-advised at best. And who plays on 48"x48", anyway?

[Penguinizer]

Who plays 48*48?

Around here? Everyone.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

It's actually 3 shots at S7. But who's counting

The thing with the executioner is first of all that it is overprized. It's range is only 36 so not that good. It's not a tank killer (unless you count light veichles as tanks). It can most likely kill hordes of infantry each turn but on the other hand what can't do that in a Guard army?

It's not that it's exeptionally bad it just dont cut it in the competition.

However just as with the Exterminator I like the Executioner for personal reasons

Edit: If I were to face loads of infantry as you do I might consider a Executioner after all

[Renegade Paladin]

Yeah, we do 72"x72", minimum, because handing the games to whichever Chaos player fields the most Berzerkers (or Space Wolf and that damnable cavalry) on a silver platter is the definition of Not Fun.

[Penguinizer]

It's actually 3 shots at S7. But who's counting

Now I'm just getting the names confused as well...

Either way, both suck. End of story. Hydra's are better at Autocannon. Demolisher/normal Leman Russes are basically the only variants worth using.

[Renegade Paladin]

Now I'm just getting the names confused as well...

Either way, both suck. End of story. Hydra's are better at Autocannon. Demolisher/normal Leman Russes are basically the only variants worth using.

This is not a true statement. The argument against the Executioner is that it's too expensive, except in your list it isn't, because there's no opportunity cost for spending otherwise unspent points; as it stands you're outright wasting them. Any tank that can wipe out Logan Grimnar, Arjak Rockfist, their squad of Wolf Guard, and the drop pod they came in on in one turn has more than justified its existence.

[Penguinizer]

This is not a true statement. The argument against the Executioner is that it's too expensive, except in your list it isn't, because there's no opportunity cost for spending otherwise unspent points; as it stands you're outright wasting them.

My reasons for not upgrading: 1 5 inch pie is statistically more likely to hit where you aim it, if at least partially.

STR 10 Ordnance is also superior against vehicles, and can instantly kill some stuff.

If I really did want to find a use for the points, I could cut the multimelta and get Autocannons for the vets in case they want to objective camp. They could also grab Power Fists or something like that. I might end up cutting one Demolisher for 2 Hydras and adding a second pair of Multimeltas at some point. Probably when I build some Hydras.

[Turcano]

The hell its not. It can kill everything, without the Demolisher's abysmally short range. Besides, he's got the points sitting around doing nothing else anyway; it's not like he's losing out on something by spending them when he otherwise wouldn't.

Yeah, if you've got the points, get the Executioner. I only wish I could take them, so I'd have some decent armor on my list without resorting to LR variants.

[ShadowFighter15]

*discussion on Land Raider variants*

Personally, there's only two Land Raider variants that seem deserving of being Apocalypse-only.

The Land Raiders Repercussionator (1, 2, 3, 4) and Demoralizer (1, 2)

Seriously though; anyone else think that we're getting a few too many Land Raider variants?

[Cheesegear]

Seriously though; anyone else think that we're getting a few too many Land Raider variants?

People want Space Marines Land Raiders. Frankly, I don't particularly care. The other variants only exist in Apocalypse, and sometimes not even then. I don't play Apocalypse. Therefore, I have no problem with ForgeWorld bringing out as many Land Raiders as they like.

[Closet_Skeleton]

People want Space Marines Land Raiders. Frankly, I don't particularly care. The other variants only exist in Apocalypse, and sometimes not even then. I don't play Apocalypse. Therefore, I have no problem with ForgeWorld bringing out as many Land Raiders as they like.

Forgeworld isn't apocalypse only. Its just forgeworld only.

You were the guy using tomb stalkers in 1500-2000 points.

Let me put it that way - these units have similar targets. The same Codex, so we can compare them without the old, tired excuse of not comparing units from different codices. I put LR Ac on the table, you put three Thunderfires. Who wins?

That makes no sense. I never said Thunderfires killed land raiders.

Three thunderfires are the same points and will kill more than the achilles. That's all I'm saying, I don't especially like thunderfires.

So, in order to survive you put them in place where they can't fire? And this helps... how exactly?

Can't they indirect fire? Not even the mole one?

You mean zero. Because, in order to fire 12 shots, you need to be deep within assault/melta range of Dangerous Things [tm]. Who reduce that 12 shots to scrap.

Yes, I use land raider crusaders, I know how quickly they die. They're transports, they'll usually have done their job by them.

And, how this beats 16-30 S6 hits, I have no idea.

I doesn't. Its letting me get my assault terminators or crusader squads closer.

Attack tanks?

If so, a 'tank' has AV 10-11 max.

Not with an assault cannon and a multimelta. You can kill even other land raiders.

Add every option it has to Crusader. What? Crusader is now more expensive? Less powerful? And has no invulnerability?

Crusaders are cheaper and plenty tough enough for what they do.

Ok, I'll bite. Name one unit capable of wading through the 60" range and still be capable of attacking. There is no such unit.

Turbo-boosting bikes. Scarab swarms.

Yup, 2x TL gun IDing all kinds of things from 24" is completely useless

No, just overpriced.

A regular land raider can do that from 48" inches and is 50 points cheaper.

It isn't melta but the achilles is a bad melta platform.

In fact, against elite infantry, they alone outperform the entire Crusader, even if you put Storm Bolter on top of it.

I'm not planning on killing anything with a land raider crusader.

Again, they die to bolters, unlike LR Ac, and have a very different role.

Yes they have a very differant role. They actually have one for one thing.

[Cheesegear]

Forgeworld isn't apocalypse only. Its just forgeworld only.

You were the guy using tomb stalkers in 1500-2000 points.

True. However, a Tomb Stalker fills a role that I can't otherwise get out of the Codex, and for a relatively small amount of points too. Most normal players aren't even using Land Raiders out of the Codex, let alone Forge Raiders.

Generally, all Land Raiders are a waste of points. All of them. A Tomb Stalker is not the same thing at all.

[Zorg]

It's also worth noting that a couple of people emailed FW about the severe unkillableness of the Achilles, and replies were given that, despite what the website said, changes were being considered before the books were finalised.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Yeah, we do 72"x72", minimum, because handing the games to whichever Chaos player fields the most Berzerkers (or Space Wolf and that damnable cavalry) on a silver platter is the definition of Not Fun.

Now, I'm not saying that 'Zerkers are bad, but ... instawin? Pish.

I'd love playing a Chaos player who over-invested in Berserkers try to rush me. Demolisher Cannon ahoy ...

[Falgorn]

So two days ago, I decided to try 500 points Tau with my friend who is a Warhammer player. He, being a Tau and Ork player, let me use his models.
I based my army of an army that I found on the internet, and he claimed it was good. Here's the link to where he got it from.
I could tell he was trying to take it easy on me, but once he got within close range, I was destroyed. Chopped to bits. And from what you all said, Tau are not good at close range. I expected that, but not for them to be that bad.
Luckily, since I tested it, I could figure out that...I don't really like Tau. Before I buy anything, I'll try them again, of course, but...I'm kind of leaning towards Chaos now. Able to fight in long range and not get utterly destroyed in close range.

[Trixie]

Personally, there's only two Land Raider variants that seem deserving of being Apocalypse-only.

Ahh, Freem is good as always

Seriously though; anyone else think that we're getting a few too many Land Raider variants?

If you compare them with real life tanks, too little, actually.

There is serious need for autocannon variant with some sort of turret.

True. However, a Tomb Stalker fills a role that I can't otherwise get out of the Codex, and for a relatively small amount of points too. Most normal players aren't even using Land Raiders out of the Codex, let alone Forge Raiders.

Generally, all Land Raiders are a waste of points. All of them. A Tomb Stalker is not the same thing at all.

Eh, remind me, aren't BA LR's cheaper than tomb stalkers?

Yes, LR are costly, but they do have their uses.

It's also worth noting that a couple of people emailed FW about the severe unkillableness of the Achilles, and replies were given that, despite what the website said, changes were being considered before the books were finalised.

Where I can read this?

I could tell he was trying to take it easy on me, but once he got within close range, I was destroyed. Chopped to bits. And from what you all said, Tau are not good at close range. I expected that, but not for them to be that bad.

Um, actually... you could have improved that list. And, if you were playing against orks, you could've kept them off range. But yes, Tau and Necrons are pretty poor right now.

Luckily, since I tested it, I could figure out that...I don't really like Tau. Before I buy anything, I'll try them again, of course, but...I'm kind of leaning towards Chaos now. Able to fight in long range and not get utterly destroyed in close range.

Um... Chaos... Long range...

Actually, save for one unit, they're all madmen who, arguably, are good in CC, but don't expect them to shot much.

[Zorg]

Where I can read this?

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.ne...4&postcount=88

Not the best, but easiest for me to find.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Before I buy anything, I'll try them again, of course, but...I'm kind of leaning towards Chaos now. Able to fight in long range and not get utterly destroyed in close range.

Consider Space Wolves/Blood Angels. They have either really good or cheap 'Devastator' Squads to cover your long range firepower and your troops are pretty choppy as well. Sure your rank and file won't be able to draw a long-ranged skirmish line, but you'll have guys sniping away at long range as well as troops ruining your opponents day.

Good times.

[Renegade Paladin]

Now, I'm not saying that 'Zerkers are bad, but ... instawin? Pish.

I'd love playing a Chaos player who over-invested in Berserkers try to rush me. Demolisher Cannon ahoy ...

I play Guard. It doesn't matter; tactical Marines deciding to assault me ruins my entire day. The longer I can keep pretty much anything besides Tau the hell away, the happier I am.

[Falgorn]

Consider Space Wolves/Blood Angels. They have either really good or cheap 'Devastator' Squads to cover your long range firepower and your troops are pretty choppy as well. Sure your rank and file won't be able to draw a long-ranged skirmish line, but you'll have guys sniping away at long range as well as troops ruining your opponents day.

Good times.

That sounds fun. And they won't get demolished in close range, you say?

Um, actually... you could have improved that list. And, if you were playing against orks, you could've kept them off range. But yes, Tau and Necrons are pretty poor right now.

Um... Chaos... Long range...

Actually, save for one unit, they're all madmen who, arguably, are good in CC, but don't expect them to shot much.

1.)Yeah, I thought that I could keep them at range, too.
Also, do you have improvements/reccomendations for that list?

2.)Hmm? I was under the impression that Noise Marines and Thousands Sons members were good at shooting.

[Mr Chief]

Able to fight in long range and not get utterly destroyed in close range.

Eldar jump to mind here, but thats mostly because they are just a good all around army.

[Zorg]

2.)Hmm? I was under the impression that Noise Marines and Thousands Sons members were good at shooting.

What, isn't it obvious I never hold the Codex in my hands? :P

So, yeah... take anything Trixie says with a grain of salt.


Chaos Marines are just as good as Imperial Marines at shooting - Havocs, Defilers, non-cult Marines, Chosen, Predators, Land Raiders, Thousand Sons, bikers, Vindicators, Obliterators, Terminators and dreads are all good shooting platforms. Not all long range, but definatley loads of mid to close range firepower (like all marines).

Space Wolves are very similar to Chaos, especially their basic troops - so similar that many Chaos players (non-cult legions/renegades mostly) switched army books due to the greater wealth of options presented by the Wolves.
Blood Angels can be built as an assault marine army, but can also be assembled as a faster version of a typical marine force. Their vehicles do cost a bit more points wise but they are faster.

Mech Guard and some Eldar builds can fight at range and not be totally useless up close (Guard by torrents of lasguns, Eldar by counterattacking/running away like girlymen quickly redeploying). Most shooty armies that can survive a decent close combat hit fight best at a mid-range to short range.

[Ricky S]

Hey can you make a rhino from the Razorback box? If so is it possible that you dont have to glue to it so you can swap it from a rhino to razorback at will?

[sircarp]

Yes it is, I always buy razorbacks because they can swap to rhinos without magnets. Plus it's only $2 extra; $7-8 if you count the plasma gun bits you're going to want to buy.

This is also pretty easy for whirlwinds, but predators and vindicators are harder.

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