Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

[crazedloon]

I play Guard. It doesn't matter; tactical Marines deciding to assault me ruins my entire day. The longer I can keep pretty much anything besides Tau the hell away, the happier I am.

wait what....

you should mob squad (3 or so squads together) with a single commissar and Sargents with power weapons. Than you laugh as the marines willing assault into a tarpit full of power weapons. The trick works even better if you have Straken chillin nearby

[Trixie]

That sounds fun. And they won't get demolished in close range, you say?

Space Wolves can do most things Chaos/Vanilla can do, but better. Yes, they'll bash your face in, but they can also shoot with riflemen, long fangs, and missilewing.

Blood Angels don't care about shotting at all, with two exceptions all they field is used to dent enemy face up close.

1.)Yeah, I thought that I could keep them at range, too.
Also, do you have improvements/reccomendations for that list?

Wel... I don't know how your battle played out, and if you used Tau to the maximum, but...

What I'd improve? At 500 points, you don't see many things needing broadsides, so I'd put two more suits in, at the expense of broadside and some troops, while keeping suits mostly to S6 and S7 weapons (plasma/missile). I don't have that much experience with Tau, though.

2.)Hmm? I was under the impression that Noise Marines and Thousands Sons members were good at shooting.

Good at shooting? Yes. Good for their points? No. These two units are so overcosted you almost never see them on the serious battlefield.

You might also want to look at new Grey Knight codex. If the (somewhat reliable) rumors are true, they get assault psy-cannons, paladins, penitent engines, terminator and purgation squads as troops, anointed armors, AV 15 dreads, all squads with psyker powers, and a few other things :P

So, yeah... take anything Trixie says with a grain of salt.

[facepalm]

I specifically added an emoticon at the end. In text, too, so there is no possibility it haven't loaded due to glitch.

And so far, I haven't ended up being wrong more often than most veteran players, so I find that comment, well...

Chaos Marines are just as good as Imperial Marines at shooting

Let's see that, shall we?

Havocs

When your unit sucks compared to Vanilla devastators, you know there's something wrong with it.

Defilers

Anyone said anything about schizophrenics? Let's see, Av12 close combat walker with ordnance weapon and hodge-podge of miscellaneous guns. Erm...

Predators, Land Raiders

Two worst variants in all of Marine books, especially considering lack of Machine Spirit, and good at shooting? What?

non-cult Marines

Good at shooting? How?

Thousand Sons, bikers

For their points, virtually anything else is better at shooting.

Chosen, Terminators

Sternguard wannabes who infiltrate/deepstike, shoot assault, close range guns once and die to counter?

Useful, but good at shooting, they're not.

dreads

Dreads. You mean, when they shoot (twice!) closest units, a.k.a. your own?

Vindicators, Obliterators

Only two good shooting units, with issues the size of Texas, when compared to BA/SW analogs.

Space Wolves are very similar to Chaos, especially their basic troops - so similar that many Chaos players (non-cult legions/renegades mostly) switched army books due to the greater wealth of options presented by the Wolves.

Similar?

You could change the names of most units and you'll get chaos units.

Except not crazy.

And cheap.

And not forgetting how to use loyalist equipment the moment they turn :P

can also be assembled as a faster version of a typical marine force

Which fails.

[Klose_the_Sith]

That sounds fun. And they won't get demolished in close range, you say?

Well, your Devastator squads won't be particulary buff in hand to hand (being not geared for close combat and hiding in tiny squads), but your rank-and-file are actually decent up close with either. Blood Angels let you take Assault Marines as Troops which will give you jump-packs, in addition to offering Cheaper Devastators, but Space Wolves probably do it better. Their Tac Squads/Grey Hunters are a solid force on their own and because they have counter-attack they can take an assault and throw it back in their opponents face, their Devastators/Long Fangs can split fire (which is both unique and also really useful, 'cause it lets you take down/suppress a pair of light vehicles with a single squad and they also have solid cavalry, of all things.

Space Wolves can do more standard Marine builds, but they excel at an aggressive push, forcing the opponent to respond more than anything else. For that you'd probably consider Grey Hunters in either Drop Pods or Rhinos, given either dual flamers or meltaguns depending on who you normally face. Units like Long Fangs make excellent support for that, because they offer a really efficient shooting unit with a great ability to put the hurt on any mechanised army (and there are lots of those in 40k right now).

Chaos Marines are just as good as Imperial Marines at shooting - Havocs, Defilers, non-cult Marines, Chosen, Predators, Land Raiders, Thousand Sons, bikers, Vindicators, Obliterators, Terminators and dreads are all good shooting platforms. Not all long range, but definatley loads of mid to close range firepower (like all marines).

You left out the part where most of the Chaos 'dex is overpriced, which is what led me to my recommendation

No, really. The only thing I can see Chaos offering that Imperial Marines can't do better are some weird things, like Defilers or Obliterators. Defilers do ... alright-ish, except for when they do not very well. Except they suffer from a form of 1-gun syndrome, in that they're a single broken weapon away from having to deal with BS3, which isn't great.

Space Wolves are very similar to Chaos, especially their basic troops - so similar that many Chaos players (non-cult legions/renegades mostly) switched army books due to the greater wealth of options presented by the Wolves.
Blood Angels can be built as an assault marine army, but can also be assembled as a faster version of a typical marine force. Their vehicles do cost a bit more points wise but they are faster.

With the main difference being that Space Wolves are good

But you're pretty much right ... and it is true that Chaos Players are enjoying the SW dex. This is because it's a really good dex and worth considering.

So is Blood Angels ... to an extent. But beyond offering a mix of units that are good in CC and also offer good shooting, there isn't much synergy in a BA list that tries to do everything.

Space Wolves can do most things Chaos/Vanilla can do, but better. Yes, they'll bash your face in, but they can also shoot with riflemen, long fangs, and missilewing.

Blood Angels don't care about shotting at all, with two exceptions all they field is used to dent enemy face up close.

Blood Angels can build shooty lists pretty well, actually

They're still a Marine Dex with things like Sternguard and cheap Devs. If all you can get out of the BA dex is either Mech or Assault then you're not trying hard enough

(And Vanilla does a few lists better than SW/BA ever could, but not the sort of thing that's being discussed sooooooooooooo ...)

[Arcanoi]

And so far, I haven't ended up being wrong more often than most veteran players, so I find that comment, well...

{Scrubbing myself, here}

Anyone said anything about schizophrenics? Let's see, Av12 close combat walker with ordnance weapon and hodge-podge of miscellaneous guns. Erm...

And yet it's relatively cheap and is firing a Battle Cannon, an Autocannon, and a twin-linked flamer, or fleeting down the field, and has Daemonic Possession for free. Defilers are actually pretty good.
[/QUOTE]

[Incomp]

Defilers are pretty good, and they're only schizophrenic if they want to be. They get a heavy flamer, an autocannon, and a battlecannon standard, sure, but that doesn't mean they're the guns you should take. It's like saying a dreadnought is schizophrenic because you can take an assault cannon or a lascannon.

Also, the right way (IMO) to do defilers is scrap the piffly guns and take more close combat weapons.

[Falgorn]

Aww, I liked Chaos. They seemed fun. But it seems that Space Wolves would be the better option. I'll ask Games Workshop if I could try one of their armies, unless they (Games Workshop) don't roll like that.

Also: thanks for putting up with me, my questions must be getting annoying.

[lord_khaine]

AV 15 dreads

WHAT!!

Where does this demented rumor comes from?

Though of course, if it doesnt have any special immunity, then Lance weapons will have a fun day.

[Tome]

That list, by the way? Not a good Tau list. The Shas'El, in particular, is set up with TL Fusion Blasters. Which takes him far too close to the enemy for my liking, when you consider his points cost.

That said, Tau really are that bad at Assault. I'd second the recommendations for Space Wolves if you'd like to play a shooty army that doesn't crumble in Assault.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Aww, I liked Chaos. They seemed fun. But it seems that Space Wolves would be the better option. I'll ask Games Workshop if I could try one of their armies, unless they (Games Workshop) don't roll like that.

Also: thanks for putting up with me, my questions must be getting annoying.

You can always buy Chaos models and use them as Space Wolves. Nothing stops you from doing that (and it's pretty common, as has been mentioned)

Only thing is, you might want to change to the actual Chaos Codex once they get around to releasing that ... but that's probably a ways off anyway.

[Trixie]

Blood Angels can build shooty lists pretty well, actually

Yes, but... to me, it's like trying to melee with Tau. Seriously. BA lose on a few good units compared to vanilla and are a bit worse in that role.

But, it's how it supposed to be - after all, you take BA for fast vehicle spam, Descent of Angels, or furious charging feeling no pain Forkinators. These are the things BA Codex does best. Not shooting.

Defilers are pretty good, and they're only schizophrenic if they want to be. They get a heavy flamer, an autocannon, and a battlecannon standard, sure, but that doesn't mean they're the guns you should take. It's like saying a dreadnought is schizophrenic because you can take an assault cannon or a lascannon.

Also, the right way (IMO) to do defilers is scrap the piffly guns and take more close combat weapons.

Yes, if you tool the model, it's going to be a bit better - still, it's very high, easy to hit model, which even with best load is thinly armored walker with gun rendered useless by CC, yet trying to wade into combat.

If only there was an option of taking more guns instead...

WHAT!!

Where does this demented rumor comes from?

Though of course, if it doesnt have any special immunity, then Lance weapons will have a fun day.

New Grey Knights Dread has front AV 13, and, like all GK vehicles, has power giving it +2 AV in a single facing per turn. Ask B&C how it is supposed to work :P

Wait till you see Heavy 12 ignoring invul saves chainguns, though, or +2 I power weapons

You can always buy Chaos models and use them as Space Wolves. Nothing stops you from doing that (and it's pretty common, as has been mentioned)

This. Though, I was looking at Chaos Battleforce (as it seems to be better value for money than SW Battleforce) and I have to admit SW models beat their quality by fair margin.

Though, as I don't like SW, I intend to field them as Raven Guard - nice color scheme and Chapter logo, elite scouts fit, as do more aggressive assault squads (hunters), supported by terminators with cyclones as very mobile force - and best of all, you can convert wolf skulls and charms to raven ones relatively easily.

[Falgorn]

You can always buy Chaos models and use them as Space Wolves. Nothing stops you from doing that (and it's pretty common, as has been mentioned)

Only thing is, you might want to change to the actual Chaos Codex once they get around to releasing that ... but that's probably a ways off anyway.

This. Though, I was looking at Chaos Battleforce (as it seems to be better value for money than SW Battleforce) and I have to admit SW models beat their quality by fair margin.

Though, as I don't like SW, I intend to field them as Raven Guard - nice color scheme and Chapter logo, elite scouts fit, as do more aggressive assault squads (hunters), supported by terminators with cyclones as very mobile force - and best of all, you can convert wolf skulls and charms to raven ones relatively easily.

Wait - so I could, for all intents and purposes, call them Chaos, and they would just be using Space Wolves rules?
Or would I have to call them Space Wolves, just with Chaos models?

[Klose_the_Sith]

Yes, but... to me, it's like trying to melee with Tau. Seriously. BA lose on a few good units compared to vanilla and are a bit worse in that role.

But the presence of cheaper Devastators and the ability to pack in 6 Preds, 3 of which are a variant on funk leaves them as able to compete. I wouldn't personally go that far, but BA can do a hybrid type list pretty easily.

(And it's nothing like attempting Tau assault. BA are actually *capable* of shooting, whereas Tau aren't.)

This. Though, I was looking at Chaos Battleforce (as it seems to be better value for money than SW Battleforce) and I have to admit SW models beat their quality by fair margin.

Personally I'm quite fond of the Berserker models ... I just wish they came in a flavour other than heretic (not really a fan of chaos mutations/backpacks, but I love the helmets, base armour and weapons)

Wait - so I could, for all intents and purposes, call them Chaos, and they would just be using Space Wolves rules?
Or would I have to call them Space Wolves, just with Chaos models?

You can do whatever you want, provided you aren't playing with total headcases. Whatever the internet might occasionally screech, 40k isn't really serious business.

[Trixie]

But the presence of cheaper Devastators and the ability to pack in 6 Preds, 3 of which are a variant on funk leaves them as able to compete. I wouldn't personally go that far, but BA can do a hybrid type list pretty easily.

Yes, they *can* do that. But, they can do other things better, IMHO. I just haven't seen any tournament-grade list using them to shoot things.

Personally I'm quite fond of the Berserker models ... I just wish they came in a flavour other than heretic (not really a fan of chaos mutations/backpacks, but I love the helmets, base armour and weapons)

Yeah, I like them too. It's just... they seem to lack details in some cases.

Still, hack off "ears", replace shoulderpads, make them less prancing, and you get awesome almost Mk III (?) armor models to use as Grey Hunters.

{Scrubbing myself, here}

Too late mate, Googleland hears, googleland knows

Meaning, you were recorded for all eternity :P

Regarding these three units - what? I still (more or less) think what I did back then. They rule in properly built lists, which is what I've said. You might as well say Vulkan sucks if you take him in a list without meltas/flamers.

I think so because Schroedinger's movement and first turn charges proposed then were not in the slightest rebuttal to me :P

Regarding Sternguard, I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you sure it was me?

If these are the worst things I committed ruleswise here, well, I can sleep soundly, as I've corrected much worse things for most of the participants, not that I bother to track that

Wait - so I could, for all intents and purposes, call them Chaos, and they would just be using Space Wolves rules?
Or would I have to call them Space Wolves, just with Chaos models?

Well... You are using Space Wolf Codex. Therefore, officially, you're playing Space Wolves for all intents and purposes. You can change your models, but they A) have to look the part (so, you can't have squigs as marines) and B) WYSIWYG.

To translate this, I guess you can use Berserkers, for example, but due to role A), they have to replace some foot, powerarmoured unit, and B) must have correct weapons. While chainaxe does fine as CC Weapon, and bolt pistol is bolt pistol, if you wanted to use them as Grey Hunters, a bolter would be required somewhere on model as well.

These restrictions are much looser for actual SW models - you get to ignore parts of WYSIWYG, and they're by definition correct, but with some effort, it can be done.

The biggest problem is, though, you have no equivalents of some units. While you could use Abaddon mini as Logan, or Typhus as Njall, you won't find any scouts or razorbacks among Chaos forces, nor more modern SM weapons Wolves use, forcing you to convert extra hard in these cases.

And, there's the problem of using other models being looked down by some players, especially if conversions are done poorly, or when "Chaos" starts doing things only loyalists might use without explanation why they do so.

Look a few pages back, I posted this genial "Kroot" army using Tau rules - you can see how the models were armed with correct weapons and picked to look their stats

[Falgorn]

Actually, looking at the Space Wolves, the models don't look that bad. If I choose the SW Codex, I think I'll just use their marines.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Blood Angels tactical/devastator squad gunlines with sanguinary priests can be horrible to kill. Its like fighting a Necron army that can charge you at S5 I5 if it wants to and has special and heavy weapons.

Add in two librarians with shackle soul and you might never even be able to get that close.

The only thing regular space marines do better gunline wise is a few expensive characters, thunderfire cannons and cheaper vindicators. Not that gunlines are good, but Blood Angels do them better than regular marines.

But, it's how it supposed to be .

Blood Angels are supposed to be a codex chapter that follows all the same rules as the Ultramarines.

Not every Blood Angels successor chapter are Flesh Tearers.

[Cheesegear]

And so far, I haven't ended up being wrong more often than most veteran players

Possibly the funniest thing you've ever said.

You once said you prefer brevity over facts. {Scrubbed}

[Trixie]

Not every Blood Angels successor chapter are Flesh Tearers.

The others are Knights of Blood, then

Ech, seriously, C:SM lacks all the special characters from Badab War series, then it would be really fluffy and competitive.

[Arcanoi]

Regarding these three units - what? I still (more or less) think what I did back then. They rule in properly built lists, which is what I've said. You might as well say Vulkan sucks if you take him in a list without meltas/flamers.

You still think Sternguard both suck and are mandatory?

And no, even if you build around them, Bile still sucks, Vindicares are still meh, and Slaanesh Chaos Lords are still suboptimal (And not as good as Kharn).

I think so because Schroedinger's movement and first turn charges proposed then were not in the slightest rebuttal to me :P

I'm not sure what you're referencing here.

Regarding Sternguard, I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you sure it was me?

Yes.

If these are the worst things I committed ruleswise here, well, I can sleep soundly, as I've corrected much worse things for most of the participants, not that I bother to track that

Those aren't the worst, just the ones I remembered off the top of my head. Anyway, dropping the topic, please.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Ech, seriously, C:SM lacks all the special characters from Badab War series, then it would be really fluffy and competitive.

If you can't compete with C:SM then you're not trying hard enough. I feel no pity for anyone who takes issue with such a good codex.

[Cheesegear]

If you can't compete with C:SM then you're not trying hard enough. I feel no pity for anyone who takes issue with such a good codex.

Me too. Chaos Marines fairly consistently beat both Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

In Australia, Chaos Marines are the top-ranked army, followed by Space Marines and Eldar. And by top-ranked, that means "Has the most points." which means that a lot of people play them.

The Best General for;
Space Wolves; 6th overall in the country.
Chaos Marines; 7th
Blood Angel; 21st.

Yes. The highest ranked player that plays Blood Angels in the country is 21st in the country. In the US, the Best General for Blood Angels doesn't even make it in the Top 50, although, the US is a big country, and, from what I understand, people over there change their armies a lot, so it might be hard for somebody to rack up points for one army if they're never consistant.

Source; Rankings HQ.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Me too. Chaos Marines fairly consistently beat both Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

C:SM = Codex: Space Marines ... right?

Although I don't really care for people who whine about their codex anyway. If you want a stronger codex, get a stronger codex. Or better yet, learn to work with what you've already got.

I don't mean this as a slight against people like Falgorn, 'cause when you're new it's important to choose a codex that will enable a playstyle you're actually interested in ... but if you take serious issue with your dex either try harder or just stop. Complaining is a waste of time that could be better spent.

[Cheesegear]

C:SM = Codex: Space Marines ... right?

Ah. CSM has always been Chaos Space Marines to me. Codex Marines, or just 'Marines' has always represented Codex: Space Marines to me. Anyway, C:SM, not competitive? HAH! Anyone who says that has no idea. No idea at all.

In Australia (my relevant Meta-Game), the #1 ranked player, plays Vanilla Marines, and, Vanilla Marines have the second highest total points score across all players. Which, again, means, despite how 'non-competitive' they apparently are, people still play them.

I also do just fine with Vanilla Marines. Just Fine indeed. Granted, I haven't run my Scouts since Dark Eldar got released (and so I haven't gotten points for like, the last two or three tournaments of the year which shafted me). But, I'm going to lots of tournaments next year.

Sauce. Its good on sandwiches. Keep in mind this only shows results for GW Tournaments.

Still, the point stands. Blood Angels and Space Wolves still aren't the top armies. IIRC, that place in the UK is for Imperial Guard. In the US, Individual Stats appear to be incomplete...

[Trixie]

In Australia, Chaos Marines are the top-ranked army, followed by Space Marines and Eldar. And by top-ranked, that means "Has the most points." which means that a lot of people play them.

Remind me, isn't Australia also country with comp system routinely skewing outcomes of the battles according to whims of the judges who might overlook how dangerous a given combination might be?

The Best General for;
Space Wolves; 6th overall in the country.
Chaos Marines; 7th
Blood Angel; 21st.

You do realize singular event means nothing, right? If you give even five top players, it might have meant something. Or, better, fifty.

Yes. The highest ranked player that plays Blood Angels in the country is 21st in the country. In the US, the Best General for Blood Angels doesn't even make it in the Top 50, although, the US is a big country, and, from what I understand, people over there change their armies a lot, so it might be hard for somebody to rack up points for one army if they're never consistant.

You just pointed out why using such data is worthless - C:SM is flagship army, meaning most players have been using them for a long time, while both SW and BA were extremely subpar and hard to get before 5th ED, meaning there has been only a year to accrue these points, not to mention experience playing them.

You once said you prefer brevity over facts.

Facts? You mean Mathhammer, right?

CSM

You mean, the Codex that has exactly one, tired competitive build: 9 Oblits, 2 Lashes? Which begins to collapse as soon as it runs into someone with psyker protection or means to target these Oblits quickly? A Codex that penalizes itself as soon as it starts taking other units?

In Australia (my relevant Meta-Game), the #1 ranked player, plays Vanilla Marines, and, Vanilla Marines have the second highest total points score across all players. Which, again, means, despite how 'non-competitive' they apparently are, people still play them.

Again, comp scores and length of playing them. Worthless data.

Let's look at recent big tourney where everyone played to the same rules, hundreds of games were played (to give big enough sample), and no one was favored:

European Team Championship 2010.

Highlights? Both BA and SW, despite being very new and inexperienced back then, are in top 5 [by averaged score]. Meaning, all their new players performed better than veteran Chaos guys with their lashes and oblits. Best BA general outperformed everyone else save for Tyrannids, being one of two players that broke three digit points barrier. Ayup, BA and SW are not top armies at all

Where are "Competitive" Spees Mareens? Ah, yes, way at the bottom, below even 3rd Edition Witch Hunters and Dark Eldar, despite number of games pointing at big faction of veteran players playing them.

C:SM, not competitive? HAH! Anyone who says that has no idea. No idea at all.

Codex:SM used to be competitive, back when it was one of the few 5th ED Codices. Now? It is outperformed by virtually every single other 5th ED Codex, saved only by skewed comp scores and veteran players. Not because GW hates them, but because they lacked 5th ED codex building experience back then.

Just look at their HQs - most of them are utterly worthless and superfluous from competitive perspective, with only Kantor and Vulkan giving any good advantages/options compared to Mr Vanilla Captain (Khan and Shrike arguably give small, but good in some cases advantage). Take these four away (as Tournaments in Poland do, where uniques are banned) and most lists SM can field disappear, leaving only a handful of underpriced units carrying them. Yes, you can field more lists than Chaos can, but that isn't really an accomplishment. Others can field the same amount or even more competitive lists anyway.

The other 5th ED Codices, while also reliant on HQ options to some extent, can do just fine without them - they can load up on heamonculus/rune priests/blood chalices and go to town with many builds with non-unique units. SM? Not so much. That's why in Poland they have opinion of being weak without these "broken" ICs, as they really lack options.

That's why I said C:SM would be better with Badab War characters - not only they're more interesting from fluffy perspective than Utra/Fist cardboard cutouts from the Codex, they give you many new, viable builds Codex Astartes should give you anyway without being stronger or more broken than Khan or Vulkan. Replying to this that you should just "try harder" or that you can hang to that one broken build you still have (which somehow makes you competitive, instead of "competitive" as most players know exactly what you'll do) is really uncalled for.

Even from the point of fun, fluffy games without strong unit spam, these new characters would give new life to the Codex, allowing for many new interesting options, instead of the same old, tired choice of vanguard-weak units or meltaspam by Vulkan which isn't the best list if you want to play non-competitively anyway.

[Cheesegear]

Lots of stuff

Comp Scores have no effect on Battle Scores and Best Generals. The rest of your argument is flawed. Except I can't be bothered.

EDIT: Klose covers most things.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Remind me, isn't Australia also country with comp system routinely skewing outcomes of the battles according to whims of the judges who might overlook how dangerous a given combination might be?

Comp never affects the outcome of a battle. If you want to take a hard list, take a hard list. It isn't as if you can't just make up your points elsewhere.

Let's look at recent big tourney where everyone played to the same rules, hundreds of games were played (to give big enough sample), and no one was favored:

European Team Championship 2010.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Hah.

Got any sources better than the ETC? They're pretty much synonymous with being competitive scrubs. They don't allow Special Characters (and IIRC they often place other restrictions) and their rules for Warhammer Fantasy seemed to place emphasis on removing everything good about the new edition.

(Seriously, Orks on top overall and some Dark Angels placing first? The place is about as competitive as a wet fish.)

Codex:SM used to be competitive, back when it was one of the few 5th ED Codices. Now? It is outperformed by virtually every single other 5th ED Codex, saved only by skewed comp scores and veteran players. Not because GW hates them, but because they lacked 5th ED codex building experience back then.

... and Biker Lists, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Capacity 12 Drop Pods, Cheap TH/SS Assault Terminators, Cheaper Predators, Command Squads ...

Just look at their HQs - most of them are utterly worthless and superfluous from competitive perspective, with only Kantor and Vulkan giving any good advantages/options compared to Mr Vanilla Captain

A second ago you were extolling the virtues of a tournament that banned IC's. Now it's all about them?

Besides, Captains belong on Bikes and Librarians generally make better foot HQ's. You also left out Lysander, but then again people always do ...

Take these four away (as Tournaments in Poland do, where uniques are banned) and most lists SM can field disappear, leaving only a handful of underpriced units carrying them. Yes, you can field more lists than Chaos can, but that isn't really an accomplishment. Others can field the same amount or even more competitive lists anyway.

Orly? Lets look at what builds look competitive, or near-competitive

BA can do Mech, Jumpers, Hybrid Mech/Jumpers and Defensive Shooting (to an extent)

Codex Marines can do Mech, Bikers, Hybrid Mech/TH+SS Termies, Hybrid Mech/Bikers, 1st and 10th, Better Defensive Shooting and MoTF lists.

Oh hey, lookit what we got here.

Who lacks variety again?

[Cheesegear]

Comp never affects the outcome of a battle. If you want to take a hard list, take a hard list. It isn't as if you can't just make up your points elsewhere.

As I've said multiple times; Comp Scores don't affect Top Tier players.

Oh noes! I lost 9 points in Comp!!! Whatever shall I doooo!?

(Seriously, Orks on top overall and some Dark Angels placing first? The place is about as competitive as a wet fish.)

Dark Angels placed first in a meta-game that disallows Special Characters?

...Sounds super competitive.

[Trixie]

Comp never affects the outcome of a battle. If you want to take a hard list, take a hard list. It isn't as if you can't just make up your points elsewhere.

You mean random slapping of penalties by someone who is not a game designer and has no idea why unit were priced such (and who might have subconscious prejudices against certain armies) doesn't affect the outcome?

You might as well roll die randomly and add it to the points scored as you could "make up your points elsewhere".

Got any sources better than the ETC? They're pretty much synonymous with being competitive scrubs. They don't allow Special Characters

Got any other tournaments with 25 countries participating we can use? I'd gladly use that, then.

Disallowing unique ICs, while bad, has far smaller impact than random penalty slapping.

their rules for Warhammer Fantasy seemed to place emphasis on removing everything good about the new edition.

And? Doesn't affect their WH40K games at all. It's about as relevant as their clothing choice.

(Seriously, Orks on top overall and some Dark Angels placing first? The place is about as competitive as a wet fish.)

...what. What what what.

I see one Dark Angels player who scored crappy average (3 pts compared to usual 9). Just where you saw these 'some' Dark Angels players?

As for the orks, had you clicked up their points you'd see their average was kicked up by seven very good players, who nevertheless placed well below top non-C:SM, 5th ED players.

In other words, both orks and DA placed exactly where they should, which is why SM losing to WH and 3rd ED DE is so embarrassing.

Bikers, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Cheap TH/SS Assault Terminators

I believe I mentioned a handful of under-priced units carrying the Codex, yes.

Command Squads

Funny, they were just declared mediocre by two players here when I mentioned them as somewhat good and yet, no one bothered to defend them.

A second ago you were extolling the virtues of a tournament that banned IC's. Now it's all about them?

What what what?

Extolling, as in praising?

...I hated that pretty much from the start, preferring to go to the ones who don't have that restriction.

Sadly, in C:SM, the uniques are the pretty much only way for variety, if you overlook CotB and rarely taken MotF. Which is what I've said - taking them away cripples C:SM, other codices can still field many lists without such crutch.

Seriously, among the three people bringing what I have supposedly "written" in the past just now I have a feeling I landed in some alternate reality.

You also left out Lysander, but then again people always do

I believe I mentioned "good" HQs, yes.

Lysander is a trap.

Codex Marines can do Mech, Bikers, Hybrid Mech/TH+SS Termies, Hybrid Mech/Bikers, 1st and 10th, Better Defensive Shooting

Read - they can combine their 3 good units in various ways. BA has at least 6, then.

MoTF lists.

They can field 6 Dreads. BA can field 8, and better ones at that.

As I've said multiple times; Comp Scores don't affect Top Tier players.

Oh noes! I lost 9 points in Comp!!! Whatever shall I doooo!?

You mean being forced to take crappy army doesn't penalize you?

You might as well say me pocketing your HQ mini before the game starts won't affect the outcome.

Comp system is a hack made by amateurs [who are not game designers] according to their prejudices. They are invariably broken by people who understand rules better than the judges, or heck, people who know their rarely used Codex better than the judges, which allows them to pull some obscure combo.

And, to make things worse, from your reports, it seems you get slapped by penalty when you arrive at the tourney. There's no guideline telling you what units might be slapped how much, no transparent process, just some essentially random number you hear five minutes prior, as you indicated with your Scout list.

Just how many times you mentioned broken lists that murdered enemies despite having been little penalized by comp rules?

Dark Angels placed first in a meta-game that disallows Special Characters?

Where? Certainly not in my link.

The rest of your argument is flawed. Except I can't be bothered.

I take it as a win, then

[Closet_Skeleton]

Highlights? Both BA and SW, despite being very new and inexperienced back then, are in top 5 [by averaged score]. Meaning, all their new players performed better than veteran Chaos guys with their lashes and oblits. Best BA general outperformed everyone else save for Tyrannids, being one of two players that broke three digit points barrier. Ayup, BA and SW are not top armies at all

No one knowing how to deal with your army is an advantage.

I've seen someone win a (not very competative, but there were still a handful of okay players) tournament with an army from a recently released book that he'd never used before because he wanted his list to be a "surprise".

[Closet_Skeleton]

In other words, both orks and DA placed exactly where they should, which is why SM losing to WH and 3rd ED DE is so embarrassing.

3rd ed Dark Eldar weren't exactly bad. They just couldn't do haemonculi lists. Some of their units were even nerfed for the new book believe it or not.

They can field 6 Dreads. BA can field 8, and better ones at that.

Debatable.

Librarian dreads are good but expensive. Not compared to venerable dreads, but those are terribly costed.

Ironclads are still awesome and I honestly don't know if a Furioso is better or not. My furioso never even gets into combat when I play in store, but I've never taken more than 2 dreads.

Blood Talons are cheese but in my experiance they either butcher a tactical squad or dissapoint. The "obviously worse" Old One Eye does it about as well (for double the points, which is the real problem).

Masters of the Forge are more flexable. Space Marines can take any of their dreads in heavy or elites. Blood Angels can only take regulars in heavy support, deathcompany in troops and furioso in elites.

Spending four troops choices on non-scoring units sounds like a bad idea. They could spend all 6 on them if they wanted to (yes, they can have 11 dreads)

Blood Angels can also take a rediculous number of land raiders, except they can't because they'd have to be playing apocalypse to get the points.

To be honest my favourite dreads are the cheap Space Wolf Assault cannon one or the Black Templars Venerable Tank Hunter one.

Only time I fought massed Ironclads they died pretty quickly. One of them to heavy bolter attack bikes.

You mean being forced to take crappy army doesn't penalize you?

Comp scores encourage you to take a crappy army. They don't force you to.

[Cheesegear]

You mean random slapping of penalties by someone who is not a game designer and has no idea why unit were priced such (and who might have subconscious prejudices against certain armies) doesn't affect the outcome?

There is no penalty because everyone gets the same. Clearly you don't understand how it works. Because only people who don't understand it, don't like it.

I have no qualms about the system, and I'm the guy that likes taking broken armies. Receiving a Comp Score of one to three, regardless of how 'stupid' or 'inconsistant' it is, has never affected me in the slightest. If you're a good player at all (which maybe you aren't), you wont even care. Like most Australians.

I know why the system exists. I know what its there for, and it doesn't really effect anyone whose any good, ever.

And its far from random.

I take it as a win, then

And you'd be incorrect for taking it that way. But, its hardly the first time.