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Thread: Erfworld, The Thread.
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2012-05-02, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
Well, for those who are still on the facebook I suggest dumping it... He'll get an email every week telling him how many have joined/quit and well it's probably too much to expect that he'll care but you never know.
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2012-05-03, 01:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
{{scrubbed}}
Last edited by LibraryOgre; 2012-05-04 at 10:28 PM.
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2012-05-03, 01:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
If only a quarter of the time wasted in banning peoples, was dedicated to writing a single text update...
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
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2012-05-03, 11:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
Maybe instead of noting that the complainers seem to contribute the least, he should ask why many of those people DID contribute to the OotS kickstarter and did NOT contribute to the Erfworld kickstarter?
In my case:
OotS Kickstarter: Good rewards (especially the PDF stories!) and a good, CORE goal - reprinting old books, many of which I still need for my collection.
Erfworld Kickstarter: Crummy rewards at the lower levels (many were of the "Who Cares" type). A good goal in the motion comic but it's not really core to the comic. As for the "Dream website" ... it's a webcomic. What exactly is wrong with the current site? It shows the comics, it has a forum, etc.
Plus, Erfworld had already been doing something like a kickstarter, with the monthly $3 and the toolbox. Which has seen nothing new in how long?
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2012-05-03, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
This guy is so deluded! Here's the latest exchange:
My reply to his last e-mail:
One other mind-blowing bit - where does your sense of entitlement to your readers' money come from? What is it that makes you so special that you can afford to blow off fans who don't pay you directly? Especially in an environment where hundreds of other webcomics are profitable without ever taking a penny in donations?
I recommend you read up on Ryan Sohmer's discourse of webcomic professionalism. Go be professional, maybe folk wouldn't complain about your current lack.
His reply:
The story of Erfworld, in many ways, is about people who do great harm and evil to one another, while thinking that they are good people behaving justly.
I haven't failed you as a reader because I cleaned off the **** you flung at my house and locked the door on you. I have failed you because you learned nothing from my story. You can't detect that you are one such person.
Yes, you can keep on hurting Erfworld if you want. Post anywhere you want. There's a sub-Reddit called "**** No-one Cares About," which would be a great place to explain your personal butthurt over a webcomic in exact detail. You're just not allowed to do it on my channels.
This is the last increment of my time you're allowed to waste. Further emails will be ignored, and your email address is now blocked.
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2012-05-03, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
The irony of all of this is that I never insulted him once via Facebook or the Forums. I pointed out that his lack of professional behavior costs him fans. I never even said I was going to stop reading his comic; I didn't make that determination until he went ballistic and decided the best solution was to silence the dissenters.
It's funny how he's taken all this criticism so personally. His implosion is getting pretty amusing to watch.
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2012-05-03, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
May I get a link to this essay? You've piqued my curiosity and I'd like to read it for myself.
Last edited by Teln; 2012-05-03 at 02:27 PM.
Originally Posted by Book of Erotic Fantasy
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2012-05-03, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
It was about a page long, on the webcomic leasticoulddo.com
My search-fu is weak but it has to be out there somewhere.
It basically boiled down to Sohmer being fed up with webcartoonists coming up with excuse after excuse as to why they can't generate content on a schedule. If it's your career, treat it like a career.
He didn't even claim content had to be daily, he primarily advocated setting an expectation and living up to it.
His primary point of comparison was the syndicated newspaper guys. At the time, webcomic artists were gaining steam in pointing at their model and mocking it as obselete, whereas Sohmer pointed out that, unlike the webcomic guys, they were held to a professional standard. They didn't get sick days, they didn't get guest comics. They did what they had to do, every single day, because it was their career.
I'm also pretty sure he called out just about everyone who clamored for donations, as well, pointing out that the comic/advertisement/merchandising model has worked for many, primarily because they project their comic professionally and regularly.
Edit, side note -
I don't hold folk who do some of these comics as their hobbies to the same standard. Once someone wants to make their comic their living, I often used Sohmer's professional guidelines as determining whether or not a comic was worth my time. Some have been smaller comics, others have been considered giants in their field. If a cartoonist wants to make his comic his living, you simply can't make excuses.
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2012-05-03, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
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Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
I dunno about the essay; but the comic version of the rant starts here (the belittlement, though, starts earlier).
I hope this comic means that Ryan Sohmer has bought all the books and merchandise put forward by people such as Tom Siddell or Howard Tayler, who have never missed an update or gone on hiatus.Hark! An avatar drawn by Kate Beaton!
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2012-05-03, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
looks like the essay part is here if you want to jump in the way-back machine:
http://forums.leasticoulddo.com/inde...pic=28388&st=0
And as for the Kickstarters I gave to OotS as I knew what I would be getting and I knew that those items were of value to me and that, in spite of Rich's less than stellar update schedule I've never really doubted that the comic (or something directly comic related like books) was his primary concern in the OotS universe.
Erfworld's I skipped for two reasons 1) none of the rewards or tiers were anything I really cared about and 2) I had a sneaking suspicion that what's happening now, is exactly what would happen with updates getting significantly curtailed as those ancillary projects were being worked on.
I'm still planning to read it when it returns but I sure aint getting my hopes up long term.
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2012-05-03, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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2012-05-03, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
Likewise! Have some thanks from me, too!
Originally Posted by Book of Erotic Fantasy
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2012-05-03, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
While I dislike Sohmer, I must agree that Schedule Slip Kills. The further apart one can go without having to check a comic, the more likely one is to forget about it. There is a difference between a webcomic that updates weekly, and a webcomic that updates with 4 strips in one day every month.
Now, in Rob's defense, I can see where he's coming from, even if I don't agree with it. His logic goes with a) I'm doing the best I can. b) Therefore complaining about the update schedule won't help anything. c) Such complaining only fosters even more unrest. d) So stamp it out before it grows. It starts with a faulty premise, and thus arrives at an erroneous conclusion. But it's an easy trap to fall into, and a hard one to get out of.Avatar by Glasswhistle
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2012-05-04, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Earth?
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Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
Dear [INSERT NAME],
You have been specially selected to receive one million dollars from a genuine Nigerian Prince! Just send us ten thousand dollars for shipping and handling.
-John Smith
Yeah, sounds like it's a lot more than 6 at this point. Shame because the comic was enjoyable a few times a year.
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2012-05-04, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
I am not certain anyone even feels safe posting anymore. The last thread posted was simply titled Censorship, and was deleted very very quickly, and Rob sat on the forum for pretty much the rest of the day.
To anyone who is reading, but not posting here, it certainly isn't going to be safe to post THERE for a while, so you may as well come forward and chat here.
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2012-05-04, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Schllaand
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Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
Don't forget Dominic Deegan...
Also, the turn erfworld has taken makes me pretty sad. I loved erfworld, and used to consider it higher than even OotS. I think I was the 3rd or 4th person to register on the erfworld.com forums and was in the Top10 of posters for quite a while. I got my paypal account specifically to register as Tool. I couldn't because I don't have a credit card and that#s required for abonement. In retrospective that saved me 100$ so far. One of the things I respected about the comic was the professionalism the creators displayed, with a thought out revenue model and some very good ideas about merchandising. (I'm an MBA, that's important to me.)
In hindsight "hilarious" post from the comics very beginning:
Originally Posted by jami
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2012-05-04, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
Dont think there's a question of safety or fear but of pointlessness or general apathy. Nothing anyone says at any point that's stronger than the "I miss updates" post on facebook is going to have any impact and only get you booted, not worth the hassle. Only thing we've seen from erfworld at all is a "they made me do it" post, which, while reasonable on some level doesn't address the core issues many of us had or the incredibly unprofessional and public display that preceded the facebook purge.
Also most I believe have resolved to cool off for a bit pending the return in a month. Though if that goes poorly for whatever reason, the past week or two will be tame by comparison I think.
For the record, I only got deleted from the boards, never posted to facebook, especially glad I did not after some of his replies.
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2012-05-04, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2012
Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
Holy crap! This was posted about five minutes ago on the erfworld forum.
(first piece is the end of Rob's moratorium on posting 'poison' on the boards. The rest is someone's reply)
[[[BTW this post is locked. If it occurs to you that it might be a good idea to start a thread to discuss this post, then you may need to read it again from the top.]]]
I have, and my conclusion is that it must be acceptable, so long as I am respectful about it, and benefits in the form of people feeling that their perspectives on Erfworld have been expressed exceed any strife that flows from it.
I do not feel that the policy of removing 'toxic' posters who cause more trouble than they contribute in collaborative dialogue suffices to explain recent 'chainsaw moderation'. You say that posts do not get removed for being negative about Erfworld, but the threads that I remember being there earlier were characterized by critique of the (lacking) update schedule, and not so much by internal bickering.
I understand that it is upsetting to read about support being withdrawn by long-term fans and readers. I thought some of the remarks were somewhat harshly worded, myself. It's sad, the way people commenting on popular media sometimes seem to forget that they're talking about the work of real people who might well be reading their words. However, I do not feel that aggressive moderation is a beneficial answer to this by any set of standards, and the appeal to unconventional moderation ethics in which 'fairness' is discarded in favor of effectiveness, in this instance, feels more like it is designed to throw critics off-balance than like something that really explains why recent posts needed to disappear.
It seems to me that the real argument comes down to "I'm overworked already so don't step on my toes right now or things will just get worse" - and that argument is also more convincing, if somewhat unsympathetic. But do you really need to fight us on this? Even in purely pragmatic terms, reader sympathy is of real benefit to the comic, and being as we are real people we do deserve fairness. The goal of being fair and the goal of keeping the community forums effective are synergistic, not oppositional, and feeling like you have to discard one in favor of the other should be a warning sign. If all else fails, leaving forum moderation to someone with fewer personal feelings invested might be good for everybody.
Don't go this road. Let us wine, if that is what we want to do right now. Reactions will get better when updates get better; your goals and our goals are aligned, in the end. These are the hungry days before the victory feast; don't take the opportunity to pick a fight with your allies now.
With my apologies for distracting from your writing,
Raza
This post has been deleted. Someone is really sitting on that forum and deleting ANYTHING posted about the updates. If it's actually Rob I'm dumbfounded.
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2012-05-04, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
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Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
Someone want to post Rob's original post about this stuff?
If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2012-05-04, 06:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
I'm not sure if we're treading the line into External Baggage yet, but it might be a good idea to err on the safe side just to be sure. I know Rob, at least, still has an account here, even if he doesn't post anymore.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2012-05-04, 10:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2012
Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
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2012-05-04, 11:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
Actually, no, it wasn't deleted: I moved it to a non-public subforum until Rob could review it and make the decision of deletion vs reinstatement himself; the thread hasn't been deleted as of this posting. And before anyone asks, yes, I am a moderator on the Erfworld.com forums.
And you know what, feel free to spew any amount of bile at me about this.
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2012-05-05, 12:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
^
Now THAT is a step in the right direction. Props to you for stepping up to deal with this, J.
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2012-05-05, 12:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
My chief criticism and concern at this point is his complete catering for folk he deems worthy and his ruthlessness for those he doesn't, with this worthiness seems determined entirely by whether or not someone has paid him.
In his exchanges with me, his Facebook posts, and now his recent forum posts, he's made repeated references to having much less tolerance for folk who haven't put in the 'effort', with 'effort' translating to dollars and cents.
Really? Just because some of the concerned haven't opened up their pocketbook for whatever reason, they're not allowed to criticize?
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2012-05-05, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
Oh, we're allowed to criticize, just not on his forum ;)
It has a bit of a parallel to politics, he's paying attention to the people who actually vote for him and ignoring anyone who isn't in his base. Unless we start killin' his doodz.
Me, I'm pretty freaking broke. It was a bit of a miracle I had enough to pick up that OOTS adventure game. (Which is a lot of fun but WILL kill your weekend XD)
So I just don't go to the Erfworld forums at all. I'm no troll, nor am I particularly vitrolic in my prose, but I'd rather not post there at all rather than risk investing my efforts, time and thoughts into a medium that would simply disregard everything at the drop of a hat, without any real rules I could look to for guidance or frame a counter-argument upon.
There is a logical fallacy that Socrates subscribed to, that every person's opinion has an equal value. That seems to be what Rob's framing his decisions on, from the text of that PM. If enough people disagree with you or don't like what you say (Or how you say it), you are banned.
This is an appeal to the masses, but it WILL cut out all truly constructive criticism, and when the lowest common denominator figures out that the rule of the forum is mob rule, the inevitable base wars are going to result in a lot of banned people and a bad reputation for the boards. (Worse than right now, which is basically "Don't go there if you didn't donate")
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2012-05-05, 12:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
The main concern that I have, is that I'm not sure Erfworld has grown big enough to survive this kind of drama, hitting at an especially vulnerable time in the comic's lifespan: During a hiatus from a prequel-arc, after a large amount of money has been dished out for it, and before any of the goods have been delivered.
Avatar by Glasswhistle
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2012-05-05, 05:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
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2012-05-05, 08:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
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Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
Yeah I asked for it to be posted (or at least pm to me if that steps over the line of externalness) because I can't view anything on the erfworld forums at this point.
Also, as to Rob respecting only people who have contributed, I have to wonder what the magical threshold is where you're considered to have paid enough to have the right to complain. I was a tool for nearly 2 years, totaling over 60 dollars paid. I never used those tool points to buy merchandise (I honestly couldn't even figure out how to do so, and after hearing the horror stories of people trying to buy books, I figured it was better to just cancel my payments and forget about it), so every dollar of that was pure profit for Rob. That's honestly more money than I've spent on any web comic, including OoTS, Commissioned, or any other number of comics I love. But apparently that doesn't qualify me as one of the customers who's good enough, since he's still giving the line "the only people complaining are those who contribute the least". So what is the magic number where you're allowed to voice your opinion without Rob lashing out, deleting what you say, and banning you? 100 dollars? 200? 1000? How many people in his entire community are considered entitled to their opinions? Less than a dozen?Last edited by Seerow; 2012-05-05 at 08:21 AM.
If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2012-05-05, 08:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2012
Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
Alright, that's cool. I'm glad Rob isn't a part of the forum moderating. I just don't see any reason to visit the sight now that all postings about erfworld scheduling need to be pre-approved.
Is it alright to share with us how many people have posted on erfworld since Rob's post?
EDIT: And by 'posted on erfworld' I mean have posted on the everything else forum about erfworld itself and the recent lack of updates.Last edited by Bobb; 2012-05-05 at 08:43 AM.
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2012-05-05, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: Erfworld, The Thread.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void