Golden's Guide to Race Building

[Vadskye]

To everyone asking Golden-Esque to rate your races:

The whole point of having a clearly defined system like this is so that you don't have to ask someone to rate your race for you. Why not try it yourself and see what you get before you ask? You can ask to see if your estimations are correct, but at least put in some effort.

[LordErebus12]

To everyone asking Golden-Esque to rate your races:

The whole point of having a clearly defined system like this is so that you don't have to ask someone to rate your race for you. Why not try it yourself and see what you get before you ask? You can ask to see if your estimations are correct, but at least put in some effort.

put in quite an effort in making the race, instead of learning a complicated new method all in one night, i thought to ask if my build was correct in requiring a CR/LA adjustment or not, perhaps his system (which he understands better) can shed light on it. i wasnt asking for a rating, just his opinion on whether or not my sense of balance is off. it may seem like a lot but i always try to help others, if you dont want to, dont chime in and reply with semi-rudeness... I, being both fatigued and sleepy, am turning in.

[Golden-Esque]

how might this little race of teddy bears stack up to this system of construction?


Teddy Bears

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+2 Dex, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, -2 Con, -2 Int: The Stalwart Teddy Bears embody bravery and wisdom, their abilities make them valuable allies when lost or in trouble. However, they are rather slow and are not always the ones with the knowhow, but they make up for it with an unwavering loyalty and toughness.

Tiny: Teddy Bears are tiny creatures and gain a +2 size bonus to their AC, a +2 size bonus on attack rolls, a -2 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +8 size bonus on Stealth checks.

Powerful Build: The teddy bear's inner courage and force of charisma lets him function in many ways as if he were one size category larger. Whenever a teddy is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the teddy is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

A teddy is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A teddy can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. His space and reach equal that of a small creature. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

Slow Speed: Teddy Bears have a base speed of 20 feet.

Childhood's Bond (Su): Whenever the teddy bear is protecting its allies, It grants a deflection bonus to all adjacent allies (but not itself) equal to his Charisma Modifier.

It’s What We Do: Teddy Bears receive a +1 bonus on attack rolls against undead creatures or outsiders with the evil subtype due to special training against these hated foes.

Fearless Loyalty: Teddy Bears are immune to all fear effects (including intimidation). These Teddy Bears may be tiny in stature, but they’re packed tight with all the courage of a bear. Teddy Bears receive a +2 bonus to will saves to resist mind affecting effects at might make the teddy bear hurt or abandon their allies.

I Know The Truth: Teddy Bears receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception and Sense Motive skill checks. Teddy Bears are very perceptive, always looking for ways to keep everyone safe.

Languages: Teddy Bears begin play speaking Common, Teddy Bears with high Intelligence scores can choose from any language available.

CR/LA +1

This system does not use Level Adjustment (nor does Pathfinder for that manner). I can't really rate your race if you didn't build it using the system presented here, but here are some pointers:

1) I don't like that you made the race Tiny, only to alleviate all of the penalties of being Tiny with Powerful Build. That is a rather cheap way to get the size perks on skills, AC, and attack rolls.

2) Flat-out immunity to fear effects is too strong. Its also lame because you've effectively taken away an aspect of roleplaying (roleplaying fear is a huge part of playing a believable character).

3) You don't list the creature's type and subtype.

4) Childhood's Bond being scalable off of Charisma is too strong without limited uses per day. If it were me, I'd make it a flat +1 dodge bonus and then have a feat or something that improves it to Charisma. Or make it once per day.

Vadskye:

To everyone asking Golden-Esque to rate your races:

The whole point of having a clearly defined system like this is so that you don't have to ask someone to rate your race for you. Why not try it yourself and see what you get before you ask? You can ask to see if your estimations are correct, but at least put in some effort.

Agreed. I can't comment on races that weren't built with Voodoo Mike's system.

LordErebus12:

put in quite an effort in making the race, instead of learning a complicated new method all in one night, i thought to ask if my build was correct in requiring a CR/LA adjustment or not, perhaps his system (which he understands better) can shed light on it. i wasnt asking for a rating, just his opinion on whether or not my sense of balance is off. it may seem like a lot but i always try to help others, if you dont want to, dont chime in and reply with semi-rudeness... I, being both fatigued and sleepy, am turning in.

Actually, I agree with Vadskye on this one. You're in a Pathfinder thread and Pathfinder does not use Level Adjustment on 0-HD humanoids. You're also asking for an opinion in a thread that is designed to showcase a specific system while admittedly disregarding that system; its like going into a 3.5 Prestige Class building forum and asking whether your Pathfinder Archetype looks balanced. Its apples to oranges and your post isn't on topic. I am always willing to help out when I can, but your post would probably have been better suited to a PM.

I also don't think he (or I for that matter) am being rude, but the wonders of the internet have a way of making people perceive next in the harshest, rudest-sounding voice possible. I wouldn't be surprised if anyone reading this is assuming that I am twirling my mustache as I type! (I don't have a mustache.)

[Vadskye]

Behold! In the interests of being a nice person on the internet, I also ran the system on your race:

Ability modifiers: Uses non-human progression. -4 points for extra -2 in a new category, +8 points for an extra +2 in the same category, for a net of +4 points.

Tiny: Doesn't exist in the system. However, the fact that the Teddy Bear has Powerful Build helps; it essentially means he just gets the free +1 attack, +1 AC, and +4 Stealth from going from Small to Tiny without suffering the combat maneuver-related downsides. The teddy bear has to provoke attacks of opportunity in order to attack an enemy, which is a downside. I'm going to ad-hoc +10 points for the two abilities put together, mirroring the increase from Medium to Large, with the caveat that I think PCs should never be Tiny.

Slow Speed: -4 points.

Childhood's Bond: A constant +1 bonus to AC is worth +4 points. This feat is situational, which would roughly half its value, but also can affect multiple allies in the right situation, so I'll call that neutral. The value of this ability is very strongly class-dependent (bad design from a race, I think), ranging from +1 AC (for a fighter that would have had a 10 Cha before the teddy bear racial mod) to +4 or more AC (for a sorcerer, bard, particularly charismatic paladin). But, of course, it's deflection, so it won't always stack... This is hard to judge, largely because I think it's too good for a normal racial ability, and it's character build dependent. I'll call it an ad hoc +10 bonus, with the caveat that I don't think it fits as a PC racial ability.

It's What We Do: That's one and a half Hatreds. I'll call it a +1 bonus.

Fearless Loyalty: Immunity to fear is better than immunity to sleep, but still fairly situational; I'll be generous and call it +4 points. The +2 vs some mind-affecting spells is roughly half an Iron Will, so that gets called +2 points.

I Know the Truth: Bonus to two skills is +2 points.

That adds up to 4+10-4+10+1+4+2+2 points, or 29 points. In other words, according to this system, you could get rid of the LA by moving the size from Tiny to Small, and changing the "+Charisma bonus to AC" ability to something worth a +4 bonus; possibly an +1 untyped or dodge bonus to AC to adjacent allies, which fits the theme of protection and strikes me as being roughly similar in power to a personal +1 bonus to AC.

Future comers will not be so lucky.

[Babnoba]

@Babnoba: The biggest problem I see with your race is that you made it a plant creature. Plants are incredibly difficult to balance in this system because they get TONS of immunities by merit of their creature type. Namely: immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) and immunity to paralysis, poison, polymorph, sleep effects, and stunning effects.

In short, if you use this system this is not a 6 point race. Being generous, its closer to a 20+ point race.

Actually, I meant to amend my description to note that the Ildaren dont get those immunities. I was basing this point spending off the notaion in the creature type step:

In any case where having a subtype grants you abilities (for example, creatures with the Earth subtype typically have a Burrow Speed and tremorsense) you most pay for those abilities in the creature's point cost if you want them; otherwise, specifically note that your race does not gain those effects.

I figured that if I could amend subtype traits and leave them off, why not full creature types?
In short, if I didnt list a point purchased ability or immunity, then the Ildaren dont have it. My biggest concern still lies with the cost of the increased reach of the Ildaren. I cant tell if its balenced or not.
I was thinking of adding in a condition where they suffer an attack and AC penalty for adjacent enemies unless they get the "Short-Haft" feat(used for fighting with reach weapons at closer than normal range)

[Lemmy]

A much better guideline than the ARG's Race Builder. I've been using this for a while, and it really helps!

[Tanuki Tales]

A much better guideline than the ARG's Race Builder. I've been using this for a while, and it really helps!

That's honestly debatable, especially since any point based race building guide will have it's strengths and flaws when compared to other similar guides.

[Deviston]

Edit: oops.

[Golden-Esque]

That's honestly debatable, especially since any point based race building guide will have it's strengths and flaws when compared to other similar guides.

I agree with this entirely.

[Lemmy]

That's honestly debatable, especially since any point based race building guide will have it's strengths and flaws when compared to other similar guides.

That's true.

You know what really puts me down on the ARG race builder? More than any weird ability or questionable point cost?

Pre-requisites.

Why the hell do race traits have pre-requisites???

It's stupid and pointless! Why can't I make a tiny evil outsider or have a character with "elven" magic that is not of the elf subtype? There is nothing inherently elven about it other than the name!

Also, the race builder is mainly a GM's tool. Prerequisites have no purpose! At most, they should be mere suggestions. The only thing they do is painting my HeroLab screen red when I use it to create a new race.

I love the ARG. It's a great book, IMHO. Except for the race builder, which is the one chapter I didn't like at all.

[Tanuki Tales]

-Snip-

Oh, I agree with you on several points and empathize on others and I will say the prereqs may have been them knowing that even though it's a DM tool, it's going to fall into player hands anyways.

But I will point out that there are things about Golden's guide I find issue with as well (one such thing I mentioned earlier).

Speaking of, is this guide up for critiquing and revision? Because if it is, I'd like that discrepancy with the Half-Orc addressed please.

[Jane_Smith]

Question about point value; how much would something like these cost using this guide?

Keep in mind, not the total point value, but separately for each instance;

1: 2 Claws (on a medium creature) for 1d4 damage.

2: Gains 1 of 3 hexes from a list at 1st level. Can only select one, choice is permanent once made. All are lesser hexes - Charm, Swamp Hag, or Water Lung. Charm's dc is based on charisma, not intelligence, if selected.

3: +1 Natural Armor.

Yes, I know there is a claw hex, no, I don't wish to put it on the list.

And if your curious, I am reworking the changeling race.

[Midwoka]

1: 2 Claws (on a medium creature) for 1d4 damage.

2: Gains 1 of 3 hexes from a list at 1st level. Can only select one, choice is permanent once made. All are lesser hexes - Charm, Swamp Hag, or Water Lung. Charm's dc is based on charisma, not intelligence, if selected.

3: +1 Natural Armor.

Those are all right on the list of racial powers, actually. =D

Each one of them is 4 points (both claws are bundled as one 4-point power, to be extra clear). #2 is suspiciously like the Extra Hex feat, giving the race fewer choices but ignoring the prerequisites.

4-Point Abilities

• Armed to the Teeth: Your race either posses natural armor or is very quick, granting them a +1 bonus to Armor Class (either dodge bonus or natural armor bonus; your choice).
• Better Natural Attack: You gain one natural attack that does 1d6 damage (tentacle or slam) or two attacks that deal 1d4 damage (claws). This damage is reduced by one step if you are a Small creature.
• Feat Worthy: Your race gains a benefit that looks suspiciously like another feat. (i.e. a Gnome's bonus to Illusion spell DCs is exactly like Spell Focus).

[Jane_Smith]

There is an extra hex feat?! I kept looking for one but could not find it. Thank you for clarifying that.

Also, what do you think a +1 CR template's point value would be around? 15 points?

[Cieyrin]

There is an extra hex feat?! I kept looking for one but could not find it. Thank you for clarifying that.

Yup. Extra Hex It's in the APG with the Witch.

Also, what do you think a +1 CR template's point value would be around? 15 points?

It would depend on what it provides but I'd say by this build set, 10-15 points is about right.

[DemonZoZo]

Revised Living Contruct

For the living construct should always be based on campaign for immunity. Standard should be disease,nausea,fatigue/exhaustion immunity. They don't need energy drain,paralysis,sleep,poison because part of it is living. Maybe add sleep at most this bring it down to the point where you know they don't need it immunity are gone.

They can only be healed by a certain way . They not should get advantage here at all.

They don't need to breath,eat, or sleep make sense because they are made like constructs.
Give them dark vision for vision works very well for them to see because they are sentry for people,but not like other creature's. You also can still be affected by certain things so it still is fair to everyone.

Velenrabilities they should have always because they are constructs.

Total points:
Immunity - 4 points
Special Healing -
Dark vision - 2 points
Velenrabilities - ( - 4 points)

If you look at this it removes a lot that is not needed, but creates perfect set up for other stuff add to it otherwise it works like every other race. What do you think about it. I am think it personally more playable then the other one.