General Exalted Discussion II: No Longer Mortal

[Lord Raziere]

Some people like the scrappy underdog.

yea. that is why my reckless martial artist character couldn't be a solar. the world wouldn't torment him enough if he was one.

[SurlySeraph]

In other games, at least an attempt is made at pretending that different classes or whatever are, ah... "balanced". Obviously, anyone with any experience with D&D knows that, in the end, a Wizard is more powerful than a Fighter (without weird wealth shenanigans or something), but you know, it's not exactly pointed out in the books anywhere.

In Exalted, on the other hand, you are supposed to know that, if the two being compared have equal experience, a Solar is probably going to be more powerful than a Terrestrial, for example. Or, as I understand it, anything else, for that matter.

Well, the fluff says "Terrestrials are the least powerful but most numerous" an awful lot. There are certainly imbalances that you wouldn't expect from reading the fluff (e.g. before the errata, Twilights were significantly better fighters than Dawns; there are lots of fights in the fluff where one party just incapacitates the other and lets him go, whereas crunch-wise it's kinda hard not to kill people; the Usurpation seems unworkable given how easy it is to get Surprise Anticipation Method), but the biggest imbalances seem fairly well indicated to me.

[Xefas]

*sigh*. Genderbender week is over. My Solar has gone back to being male.

...I miss the curvy butt.

[Jokasti]

*sigh*. Genderbender week is over. My Solar has gone back to being male.

...I miss the curvy butt.

Males can have curvy butts- it's the hips that those females are keeping from us.
Also anyone that wants to tear apart my Devil-Tiger charms, links in the sig and I just updated... slightly.

[Lix Lorn]

*sigh*. Genderbender week is over. My Solar has gone back to being male.

...I miss the curvy butt.

(zaps with reverse gender)
;P

SO!
New Exalted game, if someone can ST it. Exalted, but with ponies.

You cannot resist the ponies.

[Xefas]

I can't help but think about Black Mirror Shintai when I watch this.

EDIT: Fighting EB in general, really.

[Sanguine]

I can't help but think about Black Mirror Shintai when I watch this.

EDIT: Fighting EB in general, really.

Must fight Urge to make Primordial Behemoth...

[Jokasti]

SO!
New Exalted game, if someone can ST it. Exalted, but with ponies.

You cannot resist the ponies.

I don't get why everyone is obsessed with that show.
I think it's all a big conspiracy where everyone is compelled to love it, and I'm the only sane one who can resist it's evil mesmerizing patterns. The only sane one, I tell you!

[Kris Strife]

I don't get why everyone is obsessed with that show.
I think it's all a big conspiracy where everyone is compelled to love it, and I'm the only sane one who can resist it's evil mesmerizing patterns. The only sane one, I tell you!

I don't watch the show either, but what does sanity have to do with that?

[Tavar]

So, question time. Are Harmonious Academic Mythology and/or Legendary Scholar Curriculum able to teach people occult specialties/procedures/degrees?

[Xefas]

So, question time. Are Harmonious Academic Mythology and/or Legendary Scholar Curriculum able to teach people occult specialties/procedures/degrees?

Legendary Scholar Curriculum specifically states that it can train specialties for any Abilities that the Solar could train normally.

Neither say anything about thaumaturgy.

[Indon]

So, I have an artifact idea and I'd like thoughts.

Regarding the Precepts and the Superiority of the Virtues

This is an ancient text, written in the first age by a Twilight who for some inscrutable reason never released it to the public, which contains an exhaustive and perfect argument for why any moral creature should adopt the irrational virtues over the rational Precepts, for ultimately rational reasons.

These arguments are so perfect that, upon reading the text, a free-willed construct may choose to internalize the arguments, transforming their Precepts into the corresponding Virtues.


I plan on having one of the effects be that, per a clever bit of foresight on Autochthon's part, the construct is assigned a soul that will join the cycle of reincarnation as normal when the construct is destroyed. I'm interested in other effects the text could potentially have, as well as anything someone might've read in some obscure sourcebook that would have an impact on it.

Also, I'm not entirely sure how to adjudicate the effects the text might have on an Alchemical, in regards to tampering with their Clarity. It might be amusing for it to be A Bad Idea for an Alchemical.

Edit:

So, question time. Are Harmonious Academic Mythology and/or Legendary Scholar Curriculum able to teach people occult specialties/procedures/degrees?

Regarding this, Dreams of the First Age details a charm which expands Harmonious Academic Mythology and gives the user the ability to teach sorcerous spells, thaumaturgical degrees, and even permanent Essence.

[Lord Raziere]

I don't get why everyone is obsessed with that show.
I think it's all a big conspiracy where everyone is compelled to love it, and I'm the only sane one who can resist it's evil mesmerizing patterns. The only sane one, I tell you!

I feel a kinship with you- I don't watch Oprah, cause Oprah's an evil mastermind trying to take over the world using mass tv-based hypnosis. only those who do not watch her are safe.

[TheCountAlucard]

Quick question - let's say I want to challenge the PCs with the Shoat of the Mire. Being a Dusk Caste, it's all-too-likely I'll stat her out as a combat monster.

Considering that she's had a couple of years directly under the tutelage of the Dowager, would it be unreasonable to assume that she'd also been taught Necromancy? Or would it not be worth bothering with?

I would also assume that I'm safe in making the assumption that she should have a fairly nice panoply to represent the attention of her Deathlord mentor.

[Rockphed]

I don't get why everyone is obsessed with that show.
I think it's all a big conspiracy where everyone is compelled to love it, and I'm the only sane one who can resist it's evil mesmerizing patterns. The only sane one, I tell you!

Fear not, for I too have resisted the siren song of small horses and flashing lights and singing. Not completely mind, but I refuse to watch anymore until I, like Lupin, "am not homeless...anymore." Since I intend to never be homeless, it will be hard to be "not homeless...anymore."

[Tavar]

Huh. The Flame tag in the Core book mentions that the Range listed is how far the flame jet reaches, and they mention this again in the individual flame weapon writeups. Does that only apply for fine, exceptional, and perfect bonuses? Or does it also apply to charms? Or is there some other way to make other ranged weapons fire farther than their listed range?

[The Rose Dragon]

For non-flame weapons, the listed range is the longest range you can shoot without penalty. You get a penalty for shooting targets at longer ranges.

[Tavar]

Where might those rules be located. They don't seem to be with the weapon rules, or the combat rules.

[The Rose Dragon]

Under Step Five of attack resolution steps.

[SurlySeraph]

@TheCountAlucard: Given that she's the Dowager's only deathknight most of the time, lavished attention (including necromancy) certainly makes sense. Probably a good idea to limit the necromancy to having a couple spine chains following her rather than direct combat, though.

So rpg.net has had a couple interesting threads recently, Does Exalted Need a 3rd Edition? and If there were a 3rd edition, what would you like to see kept/discarded?

There's a lot of fairly divergent sentiment in them, and mostly consensus that a 3rd edition won't happen. However, I'd love to hear GITP's thoughts on what they'd want a hypothetical 3E to look like.

For my part, I have some thoughts; mostly I'd like it to be more like NWoD, except with lethality turned down a lot.

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*NWoD Attributes
*Same Abilities as Exalted currently has (though I'd appreciate it if they'd call them Skills instead of Abilities)
*Martial arts should work like fighting styles in NWoD, where you can only use weapons with their normal ability (Throwing for a throwing martial art, Melee for a daiklave martial art, etc), though Martial Arts prereqs on top of Throwing, Melee, etc. prereqs makes sense.
*No Flurries. Extra actions should mostly be a function of higher-level combat charms, or Athletics charms that let you move instantaneously, or suchlike.
*Health levels. Everyone needs more of them, and they need to scale automatically as you get more powerful. At minimum, give Exalts [Stamina+Essence] health levels over what mortals get.
*I have no position on whether it would be better to stay with ticks or switch to turn-based
*Have a straightforward social combat system that works mostly like the physical combat system; but it should definitely be more difficult to brainwash people than to beat them up. Integrating their timescales would be good, so a character with strong social-fu can persuade someone to spare him, taunt to create an opening, and even convince someone to switch sides in-combat if he's really good at it (like, starting Solar talking to an Extra, or Essence 5 Solar talking to E2 Dragon-Blood).
*Also a mental combat system, because arguing about obscure lore, playing board games, navigating or tying up a bureaucracy, economic warfare, etc. shouldn't just be matters of DM fiat.
*Also good support for non-violent physical competition, like racing.
*Simplify attack resolution. Granted, the 10-step system is really like 7 steps in practice, but seriously. Have DVs reduce the attack dice pool instead of being rolled against. Get rid of rerolls as a commonly encountered thing. The damage system will require significant rejiggering so that it's not just "Bigger weapons are pretty much always better" like in NWoD, but I'm confident that it's doable.
*Soak should stay in some form, being so tough that swords bounce off of you is important. Not sure whether ping should stay or be dropped.
*Piercing. Piercing probably should not be a thing, and it definitely should not be a thing that high-damage weapons can easily have.
*Either flatten or invert the death spiral. This is an epic fantasy setting with anime influences. Fights should get awesomer as they go on. Possibly eliminate wound penalties for Exalts (so all their health levels are -0), probably have a system where some charms are cheaper or even only available after losing a certain amount of health levels.
*Death should be less likely than incapacitation. Consider charms that cap the number of health levels someone can lose in a single attack, and possibly make it so that you always have to damage someone again to finish them off after incapacitating them.
*Combos. Combos should be about glorious attacks, not about quickly buffing or being impossible to damage. I'm not sure whether they should stay at all, but if they do they need to be about offense. I'd rather just dump the one-charm-per-action thing and maybe add a 1wp surcharge for using multiple charms on a single attack, with the surcharge removed for a particular combination if you spend xp for it.
*Perfects. After playtesting and making extremely certain that lethality was down to reasonable levels, make perfect defenses more expensive (either with mote costs or, preferably, making them all cost 1wp). Perfect attacks should cost about as much as PDs, so you have a way to get at people with enormous DVs. Perfects must not be so cheap that it's ever sensible to use one on every attack. It might be reasonable if almost every Celestial-level fight has a phase where every attack is a PA blocked with a PD until both parties run out of juice and the actual fight begins, but I'd rather not see that.

[The Rose Dragon]

Of course 3rd Edition won't happen for some time - possibly a long time. White Wolf doesn't have enough resources to afford a 3rd Edition (for example, none of the freelancers that worked on Broken-Winged Crane were paid for their work on the book, if I recall correctly).

Though the only important thing is this: have health levels actually be your health bar and mote pools actually be your mana bar. If you switch those two where health levels are your mana and mote pools are your health, that turns out to be stupid.

((Also, you read threads on RPG.net? You poor, poor soul. I hope you recover your sanity quickly.))

[TheCountAlucard]

Given that she's the Dowager's only deathknight most of the time, lavished attention (including necromancy) certainly makes sense. Probably a good idea to limit the necromancy to having a couple spine chains following her rather than direct combat, though.

Assuming I was quite generous and had her start at 50 XP, what sort of Charms do you think I should go with? As a Dusk Caste, probably a lot of them will be combat-oriented, though I did pick a couple of Survival, Integrity, and Performance Charms.

[Jokasti]

3rd Edition would be nice, but it's probably not going to happen anytime soon. Mayhaps a community driven project, paying attention to copyright laws?

[IcarusWings]

One idea I saw in those threads though, and I thought was a good idea on inverting the Death Spiral, was that using powerful charms increases your Limit, and that the much more powerful charms require a certain amount of Limit to be used. It fits thematically as well. Obviously the Limit Break mechanic would have to be re-worked slightly, but I thought it was a good idea.

[SurlySeraph]

((Also, you read threads on RPG.net? You poor, poor soul. I hope you recover your sanity quickly.))

I haven't noticed anything awful on RPG.net. Is there something I should be on the lookout for?
I mean, they do have the occasional arguments over whether Exalted should be about punching Primordials or Greek tragedy, in which no one ever suggests that it can include a wide range of tones and power levels; the occasional "Make a character with as many sexually suggestive things as possible" contest; the general Chungian paranoia-combat thing, and a strong emphasis on complaining about what's wrong rather than talking about how to make it right; and... OK, I see what you mean.

Assuming I was quite generous and had her start at 50 XP, what sort of Charms do you think I should go with? As a Dusk Caste, probably a lot of them will be combat-oriented, though I did pick a couple of Survival, Integrity, and Performance Charms.

I've made a grand total of two Abyssals, but I'll try... (spoilered in case your group reads this thread).

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How do you want her to fight? Hungry Ghost Style up to the form and making lots of unexpected attacks is an option, perhaps adding Charm-Smothering Technique and Scuttling Apparition Defense; appearing and disappearing constantly, slipping away from attacks, suddenly springing forward to stab party members in the back, etc.
Focusing on Melee and doing a lot of debuffing/ crippling also works. Artful Maiming Onslaught, Soul-Cleaving Wound, Thieving Raiton Claws, Foe-Blinding Jab, maybe Time-Scything Technique and other Solar melee mirrors to attack multiple party members in general Solar-ish style.

Unseen Wisp Method is always handy.

Undying Stagnation Defense, because Shaping is bad.
Eternal Enmity Approach towards Solars is tempting, but there's a better way. That way is Blood Before Surrender. When her father tries to persuade her to come home with him, blood gushes out of her ears. Or she starts to nod yes then seizes up, vomits blood at him, and yells "NO!" Or just crumples as if in severe pain at his arguments.

Morbid Fascination Style + [insert horrific performance here]. Combo it with Withering Phantasmagoria for something that's not just sickening but physically agonizing to watch, but you can't stop watching.
Depending on your group and the character's age, Irresistible Succubus Style might be a good idea. You want "Agh, creepy" or "She's really hot, but creepy, but really hot, but I don't want her father to kill me, but she's really hot..." to have her sow strife within the group. You don't want "Agh, the DM is creepy."

If she's young, Maelstrom-Weathering Indifference and skipping cheerfully through a blizzard singing to herself is nicely creepy. If older, you can still use that and some stealth for a agh where is that coming from leadup to her first appearance, but you lose the "Why is the lost little girl singing? And barefoot? And... something's wrong here." creepiness.
Dark Paths Found and Ghost Leaves No Trail are useful if you want her to get away and be a recurring villain, but by no means necessary; she can always use Necromancy to flee to the Underworld, or escape by fiat.

One idea I saw in those threads though, and I thought was a good idea on inverting the Death Spiral, was that using powerful charms increases your Limit, and that the much more powerful charms require a certain amount of Limit to be used. It fits thematically as well. Obviously the Limit Break mechanic would have to be re-worked slightly, but I thought it was a good idea.

Hm, I can see that. Especially charms that require a certain amount of Limit to use, or at least are boosted by having high Limit. It would be a bit of an effort to make one that's thematically appropriate for every limit break, so maybe a general Charm that adds your Limit + main Virtue in successes to any roll that's linked to the impulses you get from your virtue flaw?
The issue is that encouraging your players to keep their characters perpetually on the brink of madness for more power is not necessarily a good idea. I mean, it would work for some games, such as "You're First Age Solars. Go run amok," but session after session of overwhelming power followed by psychotic breaks would get stupid. And probably boring, after a while.

[Xefas]

However, I'd love to hear GITP's thoughts on what they'd want a hypothetical 3E to look like.

I'd want 3rd edition to be pretty much indistinguishable in every single way from 1st or 2nd edition. As a quick personal overview:

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Things that I dislike the implementation of:
Attributes
Abilities
Motivations
Intimacies
Health Levels
Motes
Willpower
Virtues
Backgrounds
Charms
Limit (and its similar traits)
Essence
Anima Powers
Knacks
Astrology
Experience

Things I like the implementation of:
Proper Nouns

Conclusion: Keep the names. Scrap everything else.

[Jokasti]

Yeah, Exalted doesn't need Crunch. Who thought of putting that in? Worst idea since Mardukth wasn't sure who he was.

[Xefas]

Yeah, Exalted doesn't need Crunch. Who thought of putting that in? Worst idea since Mardukth wasn't sure who he was.

I'm not saying that it doesn't need crunch. I'm saying that personally, in my opinion, all the crunch ranges from slightly bad to terrible, and to make it my perfect shining paragon of Exalted, all of it would need to be redone.

EDIT: "IMHO", "YMMV" and all those other acronyms I need to include to not be yelled at.

[Reynard]

I agree. The system is an erratic, bumbling mess.

And the community seems to know this, with the shear amount of fixes, tweaks, houserules and such that abound across the intertubes. So maybe a team of homebrewers could have a good crack at creating a system that we can graft the fluff on to.

[SurlySeraph]

Man, the system itself knows this. Perfect attacks are mostly a bandaid for people getting enormous defense pools in 1E, perfect defenses are partly a bandaid for everything being superdeadly, ping is a bandaid for people piling up huge amounts of soak, hardness is a bandaid for ping meaning a barrage of arrows from weak mortals could easily kill a heavily armored Exalt...

3rd Edition would be nice, but it's probably not going to happen anytime soon. Mayhaps a community driven project, paying attention to copyright laws?

Well, WW doesn't seem to mind Qwixalted and similar revisions out there, but since NWOD and Exalted aren't OGL or anything similar I don't know exactly what is allowable.

Also, I have ideas for MOAR SIDREAL KARATE, even though I haven't gotten the first style I started working on to the point that I consider it good enough to post yet.

I wanna do a style based on the concept of non-existence, mostly Abyssal-y but using whatever fluff on Nirguna the non-existence shinma I can find. The Green Lady might know a bit of it but have it locked away in her memory; some Deathlord will be attempting to kidnap its foremost master but can't find him because guess why; and there will be pretentious fluff about how it contains the potential for creation or destruction of anything.

And I wanna do Vermillion Clouds of Sunset Style, the martial art that the sun knows. I know that form weapons need to include fighting chains and probably flame pieces. And it needs a Permanent charm that lets you automatically punch anyone looking at you, because that's why your eyes hurt when you look at the sun.
Xefas has suggested "Foes With Wax Wings Methodology", "'I Am Actually Powered By Nuclear Fusion, You See' Prana", and "Don't Stare Directly Into Me! Method"; those might not be the final names, but they are excellent concepts.
Alucard suggested "Vicious Melanoma Atemi", "Radiant Fusion Kata," "Horizon-Crossing Meditation", and "Rising in the East Method", which are also good ideas.
Maybe it should be about virtue? Or maybe loyalty?