[3.P] The Summoner's Handbook: A Guide to the Pathfinder Summoner

[mistformsquirrl]

Stupid question time!

I've not played Pathfinder before, but I'm starting to get interested in buying a couple of the books (obviously the ones including the Summoner material) and then trying to find a game here on the forums... before I do that though...

Does anyone know if there's a way to get the Cure line of spells (or any healing) on the Summoner list? I know it's non-optimal in a lot of ways, but... I'm one of those suckers who likes to be able to heal people; it provides some great roleplay opportunities.

I know you've already got Rejuvenate Eidolon... it's not for the pet really; this is more for the rest of the party/NPCs, stuff like that.

>.> Appreciate it if anyone can help. Sorry if I'm missing something painfully obvious.

[Barstro]

I really thought that someone more knowledgeable would have chimed in by now.

My thoughts:
Taking a dip as a Summoner appears to hurt a lot, since the Eidolon loses on advancing as well.

You should have a very good UMD; just get some wands.

[mistformsquirrl]

Yeah, that seems to be the simplest option at present... For whatever reason (call me neurotic) I prefer to actually have the spell on my list than to use a wand though.

But yeah, definitely no multiclassing; I just recall in straight 3.5e there are a few ways to get alternate spells on class lists, and was wondering if/how to do something similar in PF basically.

[Starbuck_II]

Yeah, that seems to be the simplest option at present... For whatever reason (call me neurotic) I prefer to actually have the spell on my list than to use a wand though.

But yeah, definitely no multiclassing; I just recall in straight 3.5e there are a few ways to get alternate spells on class lists, and was wondering if/how to do something similar in PF basically.

Samsaran race can add # 1 spell + Key modifier of class (cha in Summoner case) spells. Steal Bard or Witch healing spells (I usually steal the Summoner spells as Bard as 2nd level haste is awesome for a Bard personally).

[mistformsquirrl]

That does look to be an interesting option... I'll be keeping that in mind!

[Shinovar]

The summoner already has infernal healing, a 1st level spell that grants fast healing 1 for 1 min. If you just want out of combat healing, that will work.

[Grasharm]

Since no one has mentioned it yet Eidolon magic evolutions from Ultimate Magic have the cure spells. They aren't very good but you can pinch hit with them. There are some problems. One you need to have the previous magic evolution to get the next so a ton of evolution points are going to need to be spent. Two your eidolon's caster level is it's HD -2. Since the HD of an eidolon progresses at the 2/3rds rate. It's not great so your better suited to provide extra healing for a divine caster or to combine with another minor healer type like a bard than to try to take on that role by yourself.

The way I get around the high evolution cost that multiple castings of the spells require is instead of taking the healing spells themselves I take a utility list. [1pt. Basic magic: dancing lights; 2pts. Minor Magic: Obscuring Mist; 3pts. Major Magic: Daze Monster; 4pts. Ultimate Magic: Arcane Sight] Then I use the evolution surge line of spells to give multiple castings of the cure spells instead of investing permanent points to do so. I also used all my eidolons ability advances to increase chr. instead of spending points to get the prerequisite chr.

Also worth mentioning is your summon monster ability. At 1 min a level the ability of a lantern archon to cast aid at will to give 1d8+3 temp hp is some decent preventative healing at 5th level. This lets you continually "heal" a character throughout combat by keeping them topped off on temp hp so that less natural hp is lost. Also a lantern archon's beam attack is a ranged touch so has a high probability of hitting so it's either restore temp hp to an injured character and if it doesn't need to do that slap something for a few points of damage. At higher levels you can take advantage of the ability to summon more archons in a single use of the ability at 7th, at 9th you get the Bralani for two castings of cure serious and at will blur buffs, at 11th you can upgrade to a lillend for two cure serious and five cure lights, at 13th I'm afraid it's more Lillends, at 15th its even more lillends but at 1d4+1 your looking at a possible 10 cure serious with 25 cure light wounds per use of this ability. Finally at 17 you get summon monster IX for the astral Deva or more importantly on the healing aspect the Ghaele. The both have heal but the while the deva has 7 cure light wounds the Ghaele has cure light wounds at will, restoration, three cure serious and a slew of incredible other spells like wall of force and divine power. I feel I should warn you though the Lillends and Ghaele get their superior cure ability from being casters themselves with memorized spells. If your DM felt like messing with you he would be well within his rights to say that the Ghaele that you summoned already used those spells or that they decided to memorize different ones form the commonly memorized spells list given in the monsters description.

So taking everything I've put out here. The best healer summoner would be a half-elf master summoner from Ultimate magic. The lack of ability advance and evolution points can be partially offset with extra evolution feats, and half-elf favored class alternative bonus. Having your eidolon out you can keep him on you at all times for shield buff and to cast evo surges on to get off cure spells as needed. the master summoner hd debuff to eidolon is going to nerf the hell out of any spells but since your casting cure spells your not really missing all that much from any spell initially since clw has a max of +5 and cmw only has a max of +10 so not so much loss here but since you can have summon monsters out with your eidolon you can have some high octane summons going. Give your eidolon limbs and it can use wands with a higher caster level without a UMD check as long as you already gave it the spell as a spell-like equivalent to it already.

Well that's my two cents on making a healing summoner.

[LordotheMorning]

So, reading this:

Summon Eidolon: For when bad things happen to good eidolons: get your eidolon back for a few minutes even after it's been killed.

I think you may have overlooked this:

A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Conjuration)

[Finkmilkana]

And I think you may have overlooked this:

This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage.

[LordotheMorning]

And I think you may have overlooked this:

......huh.

[Voyd211]

*dusts off account* Been a while since I've been here.

I noticed that it doesn't have any of the Summoner spells or Eidolon evolutions from Ultimate Magic. Does anyone know anything about those?

(mainly because I'm considering giving my summoner Summon Minor Monster)

[Frosty]

Can you take the "Quicken SLA" feat and use it on your Summon monster SLA?

[Barstro]

Can you take the "Quicken SLA" feat and use it on your Summon monster SLA?

Given that Quicken SLA is a monster feat, I think that only the eidolon could take it. Unless your eidolon has a SLA, it will not do anything.

I do not know how, by RAW, the summoner can take it. Unless, of course, you have a monster class summoner.

Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them

If you don't need to be a monster to take a feat, it shouldn't be called a "Monster Feat". Very poor organization by Pathfinder.

[Gnaeus]

Given that Quicken SLA is a monster feat, I think that only the eidolon could take it. Unless your eidolon has a SLA, it will not do anything.

I do not know how, by RAW, the summoner can take it. Unless, of course, you have a monster class summoner.

There is no restriction against non-monsters taking monster feats unless there is a specific requirement in the feat's prereqs. Quicken SLA's only prereq is having a SLA at cl 10+.

[Starbuck_II]

Given that Quicken SLA is a monster feat, I think that only the eidolon could take it. Unless your eidolon has a SLA, it will not do anything.

I do not know how, by RAW, the summoner can take it. Unless, of course, you have a monster class summoner.

Monster doesn't mean anything.
So yes, the Summoner can but you need to be 10th level as it requires 10th level caster.

[Frosty]

Yes, you need to be CL 10, but, what equivalent Spell Level is your Summon Monster SLA? For example, back in 3.5, a Warlock can take Quicken SLA feat and apply it to his Eldritch Blast (3/day) because the Eldritch Blast counts as a level 1 spell for the purposes of effects and such. I have no clue what level-equivalent the Summon Monster SLA is, so I'm not sure if I can apply the Quicken SLA feat to it.

RAI, the SLA is the equivalent level based on which version I use? If I choose to use it to duplicate the effects of Summon Monster II, then it's a second level spell?

[Kersplat]

Hi,

I'm really new, but I am a big fan of summoners. One thing that wins it for Master Summoners (and Celestial Commanders) IMO is that starting at level 3 they can summon elementals. Under the small elemental list is Positive Energy Elemental.

Not only does this drive your cleric to further heights, but :

Positive Energy (Ex)

A positive energy elemental infuses a target hit by its slam attack with positive energy. This deals extra damage to an undead or negative energy based target (as listed in the statistics block) but heals positive energy based creatures (including creatures from the Material Plane) by the same amount. Such creatures can be healed above their normal hit point total, gaining extra hit points as temporary hit points. These temporary hit points disappear 1 minute later. Creatures healed to twice their normal hit points (that is, a creature whose hit points are effectively doubled) must succeed on a Fortitude save or explode in a burst of positive energy. The save DC is Constitution-based. See the table below for each positive energy elemental's save DC.

Basically for 3 minutes and on you can have a positive energy elemntal walk around behind you smacking you to great health. This is, of course, subject to your GM allowing those in your campaign.

The small ones do: Melee slam +6 (1d4 plus 1d4 positive energy)

And if you're a master summoner or a CC you can summon multiples, especially with superior summoning.

[Frosty]

Wait, *any* elemental of the right size is fair game?

[Cog]

Can you take the "Quicken SLA" feat and use it on your Summon monster SLA?

No.

At 3rd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the power of this ability increases by one spell level, allowing him to...

The SLA automatically increases to the next higher Summon Monster spell, and there's no option to cast it as if it were a lower-level spell, so while you can meet the CL requirement of Quicken, your Summon SLA is never low enough of a level to benefit from it.

[Grasharm]

Hi,

I'm really new, but I am a big fan of summoners. One thing that wins it for Master Summoners (and Celestial Commanders) IMO is that starting at level 3 they can summon elementals. Under the small elemental list is Positive Energy Elemental.

While I agree this is a great use of a summon monster ability it is based off of 3rd party material which I treat as if I was being asked to sign a contract with the devil. I know no matter how good it looks up front there are probally going to be a clause or two that is going to damn me in the end unless I'm really careful. Therefore I try to limit my posts discussions to core material and leave the third party stuff to the GMs that are willing to open that snake pit. So for all you that read this and thought it's grrreeeaaat! Just be aware you need to ask your GM first. In this case it's the Tome of Horrors Complete by Frog God Games for those of you that want to see if you can sneek this in. Or at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/mon...ve-energy-tohc if you want to use the non-cannon pathfinder srd.

[mistformsquirrl]

So I had a mildly demented idea just now...

Is it possible to do a Kali-esque Eidolon except with Repeating Crossbows/Crossbows instead of melee weapons?

What I'm thinking is a centaur-type build with 4 pairs of arms, each pair carrying a Large or Huge* repeating crossbow.

My concerns basically boil down to:

A) Can you actually do that? Technically nothing I'm finding on the SRD is prohibiting it, but I don't want to go nuts on an idea that's not rules legal due to something (probably obvious) that I'm missing.

B) If you can do it, is it actually feasible? The penalty to hit from Multiweapon Fighting is not insignificant and I'm not sure if you can count a ranged weapon as a Light weapon under any circumstances, even if it's a size category smaller than you are.

I'm not necessarily looking at this to be "the best eidolon ever" or anything; just something that would theoretically work in a typical combat encounter.

----

I dunno, it's just an idea, but one I admit I'm rather taken with.

*Depending on just how big the overall creature ends up being. Large certainly, huge would depend significantly on the campaign; though I love the idea of having a summon that is, for all intents and purposes, a land battleship.

[Voyd211]

I wonder if the OP could modify the thing to list the Ultimate Magic evolutions and spells?

[grarrrg]

So I had a mildly demented idea just now...

Is it possible to do a Kali-esque Eidolon except with Repeating Crossbows/Crossbows instead of melee weapons?

A) Can you actually do that? Technically nothing I'm finding on the SRD is prohibiting it, but I don't want to go nuts on an idea that's not rules legal due to something (probably obvious) that I'm missing.

B) If you can do it, is it actually feasible? The penalty to hit from Multiweapon Fighting is not insignificant and I'm not sure if you can count a ranged weapon as a Light weapon under any circumstances, even if it's a size category smaller than you are.

I'm not necessarily looking at this to be "the best eidolon ever" or anything; just something that would theoretically work in a typical combat encounter.

You idea would work just fine.
Ranged weapons are never "light" (unless they are Throwable).
But if you are looking for Ranged Eidolon Awesomeness, then you REALLY need the Gundolon.

[Cieyrin]

I wonder if the OP could modify the thing to list the Ultimate Magic evolutions and spells?

Not likely any time soon, given he's busy being a real life author. Maybe someday, though...

[mistformsquirrl]

Hah, very nice idea there grarrrg! I'm probably going to stick to the crossbows for a couple reasons (easier to get them approved, and also not wanting to go Syntheist*) - but that's a really interesting build there, and a contradiction to the usual wisdom of "Never multiclass a summoner".

*DM is actually custom modifying Summoner for me so my eidolon can be a construct >_>/ Gnome engineer away!

[about50heavies]

Which is better bipedal or quadruped eidolon for utility

[Grasharm]

So I had a mildly demented idea just now...

Is it possible to do a Kali-esque Eidolon except with Repeating Crossbows/Crossbows instead of melee weapons?
.

Here is my two cents worth of oppinion on this.

Your better off with a small biped eidolon using darts for this build and here is my reasoning.

Since yours is going to be ranged you need dex more than Str and the small size ability shift allows you to shift more towards dex. and gives you a + to hit and ac to boot.

As for darts they are light, multi-wielding is not as much an issue. They are ammo type weapons so cuts down on cost overhead that with Kali types can drive you into bankruptcy. More so given that one "batch" of darts can be shared amongst all your hands. Again this weapon lends itself to small size since it only loses 1 point of damage off of max. As an added bonus you can now gain str. to damage without spending extra on a bow built to str.

Next, darts are one handed. Part of what makes a Kali build so deadly is the sheer number of attacks you can get off. Using crossbows, bows, spears and most missle weapons require two hands; cutting down on the number of attacks launched. With darts or one handed weapons a kali types converts each evo. point into an attack. 2Pts gets one pair of arms with hands to wield a weapon, so two weapons and thus two attacks for two points.

I also happen to like the picture of a robot gnome with an ammo belt of darts thats arms starts spinning and the belt starts feeding through as a arm after arom on the shoulder wheels hurls darts like a machine gun.

[Grasharm]

Which is better bipedal or quadruped eidolon for utility

Define what sort of utility. Quads and serpentines can be ridden once they are big enough which can be at first level with a small charaters. This makes them slightly more utility in my oppinion since it adds something a biped cant do where as a quad can always buy limbs to get some arms and hands but again it really is what do you mean utility.

[mistformsquirrl]

That's a pretty cool idea there <^-^> I've already built my Eidolon and everything now; but I will be keeping that in mind at a later date!

This is the one. (You may note a lot of extra Evolution points - this is because the DM had me give up class features for spare evolution points so I could afford the Construct trait for the Eidolon. I thought it worked out fairly well overall, even if I need to be cautious and keep said Eidolon at long distance as much as possible. Mounted Combat should help.)

Turns out Light Crossbows are light weapons, as seen here. I'll only have 4 of them, so it's not going to be pumping out the ammo to a ludicrous degree right away; but that's kinda on purpose as I don't want to push the Summoner into the kind of "Oh gods why did I allow that class!?" territory that could come up. Especially since someone n the group is considering Monk; and I don't want to spoil their fun.

[Conkea]

That's a pretty cool idea there <^-^> I've already built my Eidolon and everything now; but I will be keeping that in mind at a later date!

This is the one. (You may note a lot of extra Evolution points - this is because the DM had me give up class features for spare evolution points so I could afford the Construct trait for the Eidolon. I thought it worked out fairly well overall, even if I need to be cautious and keep said Eidolon at long distance as much as possible. Mounted Combat should help.)

Turns out Light Crossbows are light weapons, as seen here. I'll only have 4 of them, so it's not going to be pumping out the ammo to a ludicrous degree right away; but that's kinda on purpose as I don't want to push the Summoner into the kind of "Oh gods why did I allow that class!?" territory that could come up. Especially since someone n the group is considering Monk; and I don't want to spoil their fun.

Are you sure your dex is right? Because I believe it's 14 (base)+ 3(from level 7)+1 (for abilityscore increase at level 5)+2 (belt) = 20 total