General Exalted Discussion III: Weddings Are An Act of Villainy

[Friv]

Got a quick (hopefully) question about Distracting Finger-Gesture Attack (Ebon Shadow Style charm, page 92 of Scroll of the Monk).

Probably your first mistake.

It is a reflexive (Step 1) charm that delays the target's next action for a number of ticks equal to the user's Martial Arts score. From what I see, you don't actually have to make any kind of roll, the delay just happens. Does this mean that if I get my Martial Arts score high enough I can keep a single opponent stun-locked (by repeatedly taking actions that take time equal to or less than my MA score) for as long as I have motes (could be forever, with stunts and all)?

Finger-Gesture isn't listed as a Stackable ability, so no. As long as an opponent is under the effects of a Finger-Gesture, you can't hit them with a second one. You can only slow them down immensely.

It's worth noting that this Charm is desperately broken in both directions. You can't Combo it, so it leaves you hopelessly vulnerable if someone actually manages to attack you while you use it, but it's incredibly overpowered in what it does for its cost.

Also, can I only use it on step 1 of MY attacks, or also the opponent's? For example if they declare an attack on me and I can use this charm, will it delay their currently declared attack by <my MA score> ticks or will their NEXT action be delayed by that extra amount in addition to their normal wait time?

Nobody knows.

Nobody.

As written, it seems to apply on Step 1 of your own attack. RAI, it is probably meant to apply during Step 1 of an attack against you, which would flip the Charm around back to mostly useless.

Either way, it seems to increase the Speed of their attack, so their current attack resolves normally, and then it takes forever for them to get a second one. Probably. Maybe.

[TheCountAlucard]

Probably your first mistake.

Sad but true. Back when I started playing, I actually thought "Inevitable Victory Meditation" looked cool.

Nobody knows.

Nobody.

Nobody.

[Choco]

Wow, sounds quite messed up there guys, thanks for the help!

Least now I know for a fact that before I choose anything I am going to have to check with the ST first on how he would interpret it.

[Ganurath]

Yes and that accounts for all of about 10 Lunars. What the hell have the other 290 been doing?

Forming Combat and/or Conquest Packs against the Fair Folk or the Immaculate Order, making Retrieval Packs to pick up the fresh Lunars made by the casualties of the Combat and Conquest Packs, putting together Wyld Packs to clean up after the failures of the Retrieval Packs, guiding the mortals of creation with Experimental Packs... Oh, and there are also Gatherings and Factional politics. Frankly, it's surprising that they find time for orgies.

[Drascin]

I have a real problem with this notion, because it turns the Lunars into 'Good Guys.'

No faction in Exalted works for the common group, and it adds so much to the setting. The Siderals, the Realm, the Silver Pact, they all are self interested. They work for what they believe is the best for Creation, but what they believe is that it is best for them to lead Creation. None of them are truly evil (except for the Primordials, and the Neverborn... maybe.) Exalted doesn't do Black and White Morality.

Saying that the Lunars are the "Silent Guardians, working endlessly for the betterment of the world" means that they are the good guys. Lunars are good, things that get in their way are bad. The Silver Pact needs their moral flaws, or they just become the White Knights. As is, in the setting, they are a fractious group of bitter elders, doing their best to lead their youngsters in a hundred different ways at once. Going "nope, they are now all tireless Guardians of Creation, giving themselves without taking anything" makes them simplistic and boring.

tl;dr Lunars shouldn't become Batman, because Batman is a hero. They need their moral failings, just like every other faction.

Okay, first, "good intentions and description but got sidetracked and corrupted" describes a couple splats already. Don't see how adding Lunars to the "theorethically heroes, practically just might be so by virtue of being slightly less bad than the alternative" thing Solars already have going would shake matters much.

And second, about it all... I'm not sure how much the whole "everyone is a total ****" thing really "adds". To me, it mostly adds a complete lack of care about what happens to the setting, to be honest. I admit I get serious "40K Syndrome" out of Exalted sometimes, which leaves me rather bleh towards it all.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Okay, first, "good intentions and description but got sidetracked and corrupted" describes a couple splats already. Don't see how adding Lunars to the "theorethically heroes, practically just might be so by virtue of being slightly less bad than the alternative" thing Solars already have going would shake matters much.

And second, about it all... I'm not sure how much the whole "everyone is a total ****" thing really "adds". To me, it mostly adds a complete lack of care about what happens to the setting, to be honest. I admit I get serious "40K Syndrome" out of Exalted sometimes, which leaves me rather bleh towards it all.

Because the Solars aren't heroes. They're perfect. There is a difference. Solars are perfect at everything, including things you would rather them not be. When they go mad, they seriously go mad. Putting up Lunars as the well intentioned heroes is something fundamentally new, and cheapens the setting.

And secondly... alright. Then... don't play White Wolf Games. They aren't for you. But... well, it is a core element of the setting that everyone can be heroes, and everyone can be villains. It just depends through which prism you look. And... I think it is a good thing.

[golentan]

Yeah. I tend to prefer settings without a designated villain faction. Think of it this way, it's not that everyone is a total ****, it's that nobody is. Everyone is genuinely doing what they think is best for whatever reason, even when it's one that I tend to view with the same level of approval as testicular leeches (see: many/most abyssals).

Except for the Ebon Dragon. **** that guy.

[Ganurath]

And second, about it all... I'm not sure how much the whole "everyone is a total ****" thing really "adds". To me, it mostly adds a complete lack of care about what happens to the setting, to be honest. I admit I get serious "40K Syndrome" out of Exalted sometimes, which leaves me rather bleh towards it all.

You do realize that that isn't what the situation is, right? Every FACTION has an a-hole agenda, but individuals are more complex beings. Heck, the complexity of individuals plays a signifigant role in the game and the characters you interact with. Except Desus, who is shamelessly one-dimensional.

[TheCountAlucard]

Except Desus, who is shamelessly one-dimensional.

Yeah - he's such a great guy! Desus is almost too much of a hero! Man, do you remember that time he blinded Oliphem? He was so brave... Aaargh, Desus!

[Tavar]

tl;dr Lunars shouldn't become Batman, because Batman is a hero. They need their moral failings, just like every other faction.

Right. So that's only part of what they do. The also have the whole thousand streams river, which has some questionable aspects, as well as factions like Ma-Ha-Suchi's faction, or the others.

I mean, it's no different than how the Dragonblooded or Sidereals have largely heroic goals, but they also have questionable methods of doing those goals.

[Lix Lorn]

Except Desus, who is shamelessly one-dimensional.

Yeah - he's such a great guy! Desus is almost too much of a hero! Man, do you remember that time he blinded Oliphem? He was so brave... Aaargh, Desus!

Gotta admit, it's an amusing dimension.

If by amusing you mean 'If I meant him I would want to kill him SO HARD until he mindraped me.'

[Tavar]

I think it's useful to point out how the Exalted don't need the Great Curse to become extremely bad, and that no exaltation can make someone automatically good or bad.

[Drascin]

Yeah. I tend to prefer settings without a designated villain faction. Think of it this way, it's not that everyone is a total ****, it's that nobody is. Everyone is genuinely doing what they think is best for whatever reason, even when it's one that I tend to view with the same level of approval as testicular leeches (see: many/most abyssals).

Except for the Ebon Dragon. **** that guy.

No, that's the theory. I can get behind "nobody is totally bad". Because I do believe that very few people are really completely bad. The problem is that White Wolf has serious trouble with making things look not-bad. I like my "no villains" things being due to all factions in the work making good, valid points and keeping sympathetic enough you don't know which to support, not due to every one being as bad as the others so it doesn't matter which to support, so to speak. More Nanoha and less 40K. And I, honestly, don't get that feeling from Exalted, not from the "people that matter". You just have your self-serving total ***holes, your not-completely-bad-intentioned guys that have to be stopped anyway because they're going to ignorantly blow up the world by accident, your complete monsters, your total and utter dupes, and in the middle of the free for all there's your run of the mill mortals who just want to not get deaded, and often fail at it. It seems that the only places with somewhat functioning tops are the ones where Exalted are as peripheral as humanly possible.

And then, of course, there's the Ebon Dragon. **** that guy indeed

[IcarusWings]

I have a real problem with this notion, because it turns the Lunars into 'Good Guys.'

No faction in Exalted works for the common group, and it adds so much to the setting. The Siderals, the Realm, the Silver Pact, they all are self interested. They work for what they believe is the best for Creation, but what they believe is that it is best for them to lead Creation. None of them are truly evil (except for the Primordials, and the Neverborn... maybe.) Exalted doesn't do Black and White Morality.

Saying that the Lunars are the "Silent Guardians, working endlessly for the betterment of the world" means that they are the good guys. Lunars are good, things that get in their way are bad. The Silver Pact needs their moral flaws, or they just become the White Knights. As is, in the setting, they are a fractious group of bitter elders, doing their best to lead their youngsters in a hundred different ways at once. Going "nope, they are now all tireless Guardians of Creation, giving themselves without taking anything" makes them simplistic and boring.

tl;dr Lunars shouldn't become Batman, because Batman is a hero. They need their moral failings, just like every other faction.

I never meant that Lunars should be 'The Good Guys'. Only that the general majority are doing what they think is best for Creation. The general majority of Sidereals think what they are doing is best for Creation, as do the majority of Abyssals and Neverborn. That by no means makes them into 'heroes'.

Just by being the people who defend Creation from unknown horrors, doesn't mean they don't have dark, horrible, methods. Burning a village of innocents to the ground to root out a Raksha, killing any hostages an opponent uses to try and barter, unleashing a plague upon a city because it has become infected with Wyld Taint. These are all things a Lunar could possibly do in the name of Creation. In the name of defending Creation. That doesn't make them heroes.
As said before, almost all Sidereals have good intentions. The entire Usurpation was done in the name of defending Creation, that doesn't make the Five-Score-Fellowship a fellowship of heroes (well, depends on your views. Personally, I agree with the Bronze Faction, but that's a debate for another day).

'Silent Guardians working to defend Creation' and 'Ruthless killers and self-proclaimed Saviors' are not mutually exclusive themes. They would both apply to the best and the worst of the Lunars in my ideal Exalted rewrite.

[Tavar]

The general majority of Sidereals think what they are doing is best for Creation, as do the majority of Abyssals and Neverborn.

Wait, what?

[Lochar]

Creation is flawed. Destroying it is the only solution, didn't you know?

You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. They just need a really big egg.

[Xefas]

That or they legitimately think that a lack of existing is superior to existing.

[Guancyto]

And let's be honest, depending on how crapsack you make your Creation, 'burn the world' can easily be the best option.

[IcarusWings]

That or they legitimately think that a lack of existing is superior to existing.

That's what I always thought the motives of the Neverborn, and therefore the Abyssals were. That they're killing you to save you from the suffering of existence, like euthenasia on an apocalyptic scale. Am I wrong?

[TheCountAlucard]

And let's be honest, depending on how crapsack you make your Creation, 'burn the world' can easily be the best option.

Actually, that's one of the ways the game could well go, if Ebby escapes. The people of Creation, as a whole, decide Oblivion is better. That's how bad he is.

[golentan]

Actually, that's one of the ways the game could well go, if Ebby escapes. The people of Creation, as a whole, decide Oblivion is better. That's how bad he is.

They do specifically bring it up in RotSE as a valid plot for a game or campaign post reclamation, yes.

[SurlySeraph]

Forming Combat and/or Conquest Packs against the Fair Folk or the Immaculate Order, making Retrieval Packs to pick up the fresh Lunars made by the casualties of the Combat and Conquest Packs, putting together Wyld Packs to clean up after the failures of the Retrieval Packs, guiding the mortals of creation with Experimental Packs... Oh, and there are also Gatherings and Factional politics. Frankly, it's surprising that they find time for orgies.

Don't forget fighting chimeras, being chimeras, infiltrating every part of Creation outside the Blessed Isle, infiltrating Heaven, Hell, and the Underworld, attempting to eat and/or impregnate every animal in the world, finding bits of stable reality in the Wyld and standing there making rude gestures at the Fae, trying to find First Age Tech that they left in the Wyld during the Balorian Crusade, and looking for the Solars who weren't in the Jade Prison.

Wait, what?

Well, the Neverborn just want to not be in horrific agony anymore, and want everything else to go with them; they're pretty self-interested. Abyssals get heavily indoctrinated into "Creation needs to die because everything sucks," though they have room to vary. "Kill everything because Oblivion is the only relief" is the official line, "Kill everything because Creation is a terrible place and we should start afresh" is another angle, "Kill everything so the Neverborn will stop hurting me" is a third.

[Ganurath]

No, that's the theory. I can get behind "nobody is totally bad". Because I do believe that very few people are really completely bad. The problem is that White Wolf has serious trouble with making things look not-bad. I like my "no villains" things being due to all factions in the work making good, valid points and keeping sympathetic enough you don't know which to support, not due to every one being as bad as the others so it doesn't matter which to support, so to speak. More Nanoha and less 40K. And I, honestly, don't get that feeling from Exalted, not from the "people that matter". You just have your self-serving total ***holes, your not-completely-bad-intentioned guys that have to be stopped anyway because they're going to ignorantly blow up the world by accident, your complete monsters, your total and utter dupes, and in the middle of the free for all there's your run of the mill mortals who just want to not get deaded, and often fail at it. It seems that the only places with somewhat functioning tops are the ones where Exalted are as peripheral as humanly possible.

And then, of course, there's the Ebon Dragon. **** that guy indeed

Solars: Random schmucks that were imbued with awesome power, their potential to do great things crippled by ignorance. Looks worse than it is because the iconic Solars are a soldier, a gladiator, a snobbish scholar, a former Yozi-worshipping assassin, and Desus's new incarnation.

Lunars: Supportive Exalts that try to juggle a half-dozen tasks at once: Ducking the Immaculates, fighting off Fair Folk, securing newbies, killing Chimera, helping mortal communities strengthen themselves, and maintaining unit cohesion.

Sidereals: Trying to do what's best for Creation, with degrees of success inversely proportional to how many are trying at the same time. Also, they need to deal with a corrupt Celestial bureaucracy, the Realm, the myriad threats to Creation...

Terrestrials: Their nation was designed to fall apart without the Empress, yet they still manage. It isn't through cruelty that they hunt Anathema, they genuinely believe them to be a threat. Much like the Sidereals, they're trying to keep things running. Trouble is, there isn't enough means for every family's end.

Abyssals: Euthenasia is the easiest way to end Creation's endless waltz of upheaval, recovery, and decay.

Infernals: ...Jerks.

Alchemicals: Cold and calculating, true, but their goals are respectable, and they always give serious consideration to the well-being of mortals.

Fair Folk: At worst, they don't know any better than to do the horrible things they do. At best, what they do is exactly what the mortals need, and it's the motive that's hopelessly alien.

[TheCountAlucard]

Infernals: ...Jerks.

I find I have to argue with this one, sorry. Infernals don't have to be evil. They can be, but so can any other Exalt. In fact, Infernals are the ones most likely to go renegade in the first place...

[Recaiden]

I find I have to argue with this one, sorry. Infernals don't have to be evil. They can be, but so can any other Exalt. In fact, Infernals are the ones most likely to go renegade in the first place...

They're still pretty likely to be evil.

[Ganurath]

I find I have to argue with this one, sorry. Infernals don't have to be evil. They can be, but so can any other Exalt. In fact, Infernals are the ones most likely to go renegade in the first place...

I'm referring to the base factions. The base faction of Infernals are trying to free the Yozi. The Ebon Dragon is a Yozi. Therefore, jerks.

[TheCountAlucard]

They're still pretty likely to be evil.

No more than any other Exalt. In fact, chances are that after they first get their glimpses of the Demon City and just how the Yozis intend to free themselves, any sane Green Sun Prince would forswear the Reclamation entirely.

I'm referring to the base factions. The base faction of Infernals are trying to free the Yozi.

Are they, though?

The Ebon Dragon is a Yozi. Therefore, jerks.

That logic's not entirely sound... especially considering how likely it is that some Green Sun Princes have likely been tricked or brainwashed.

[Guancyto]

Well, even the renegades tend to follow certain themes, modes of thinking and since they're probably not following their Urge, rampant Acts of Villainy.

Not necessarily evil, but pretty likely to be jerks.

[Sanguine]

I'm referring to the base factions. The base faction of Infernals are trying to free the Yozi. The Ebon Dragon is a Yozi. Therefore, jerks.

Which Faction where you judging as the "base" for Fair Folk? It seems the Duchy of Mirrors going by your post; and while that is probably what most PC Fair Folk belong to I would hardly call it the "base" faction. Of course I wouldn't use that term for any of the others either.

[Xefas]

In fact, chances are that after they first get their glimpses of the Demon City and just how the Yozis intend to free themselves, any sane Green Sun Prince would forswear the Reclamation entirely.

I agree that Infernals aren't any more likely to be jerks than any other variety of Exalt in the Second Age, but I don't think the above statement is necessarily true.

Because of demonic hookers and blow, mostly.