When you play the Game of Thrones...

[The_JJ]

I think Joffrey's just a bad person. His upbringing certainly didn't help and probably contributed to his feelings of entitlement, but there doesn't need to be a reason. He's a textbook psychopath.

Minor spoilers:

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He vivisected a pregnant cat just to see what was inside. (Incidentally the only time Robert ever hit him)
Let's not forget that Tommen and Myrcella seem to be, for the most part, sweet, well-adjusted, normal children. They've had largely similar upbringings minus being constantly told they'd be King.

We haven't quite been told the age on that. Could be less sociopathic than a child with a lot of curiosity crossed with a lack of any sort of controls. He may have been genuinely unaware of the ramifications of his actions.

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Also, re: the other children. They are well adjusted, but neither is the first born, which means a lot. Tommen is young, and had less time to be screwed up, and Myrcella doesn't get a lot of screen time. She probably gets a lot less pressure from Cersei though, and less pandering from those attempting to curry favor with the powerful, what with having no real power.

[Zocelot]

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It'd be like telling them flat out that Varys and Illyrio might be linked strongly with Martell!

What evidence is there in support of that?

[Dienekes]

What evidence is there in support of that?

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Illyrio and Varys were talking together in the first book (Varys was the wizard) showing they were connected, it was also later revealed that Varys and Illyrio grew up together.

It is then revealed that Doran Martell is plotting revenge against the Lannisters and Baratheons for the death of his sister (Rhaegar's wife) and was plotting (if you can call it that, so far his plans seem to be sit and do nothing) to have his daughter marry Viserys when his army goes west and has his son doing something in the Free Cities involving this plot.

[McStabbington]

We haven't quite been told the age on that. Could be less sociopathic than a child with a lot of curiosity crossed with a lack of any sort of controls. He may have been genuinely unaware of the ramifications of his actions.

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Also, re: the other children. They are well adjusted, but neither is the first born, which means a lot. Tommen is young, and had less time to be screwed up, and Myrcella doesn't get a lot of screen time. She probably gets a lot less pressure from Cersei though, and less pandering from those attempting to curry favor with the powerful, what with having no real power.

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That's actually one of the major themes of GoT. The first time you see Ned Stark, he's beheading a deserter in front of his sons. Afterwards, he basically hits the viewer over the head that if you want to be responsible in your use of power, you have to be willing to wield it yourself. Contrast that with Joffrey, who is so thoroughly vile in no small part because he always delegates his violence to others. He doesn't smack Sansa; he gets his knights to do it for him. He doesn't have the slightest appreciation for the power he is wielding, and apparently all he learned from the incident with the cat was not to do the cutting yourself.

For what it's worth, I'm thinking Cersei had something to do with it. Joffrey was her meal ticket to power, and she doesn't seem to distinguish between good parenting and parenting that protects her interests from all comers. We won't see this for a while, but she'll treat Tommen and Myrcella very differently once they start affecting her calculations for power.

[Seerow]

Here's the whole bloody tale as information given throughout the 1st book.

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Ned Stark once had an older brother Brandon, and a younger sister Lyanna, and a father whose name escapes me. Lyanna was promised to be wed to Robert Baratheon. However, even young Robert already had a roving eye and Lyanna seemed to recognize what Robert was and wasn't really "in wuv" with him.

Now along comes Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, the crown prince of the realm, knight, scholar, and all around swell guy. Pretty much everyone who talked to him seemed to like and respect him, he was honorable, just, kind, had a loving wife and a children. The works.

So one day there was a tournament, and Rhaegar entered the lists, and instead of crowning his wife the Queen of Love and Beauty as was custom, he gives the title to Lyanna (which in my opinion is one of the coldest things a guy can do to his wife, I mean really, jeez, talk about a slap to the face).

A bit later and Lyanna is gone with Rhaegar. Did he kidnap her? Did she go willingly? Who knows. But of course the Starks and Robert are furious. You can't just go around taking any noble woman you please even if you are king, it's disrespectful. So Brandon goes to speak his mind to Rhaegar's dad, King Aerys II "the Mad King." Now as to be expected, the Mad King was kind of loopy so he did not take it well that some noble's son was telling his family what to do. So he imprisoned Brandon and ordered Lord Stark to ride down and answer for his son's impudence.

Now Lord Stark thinks "Oh the king's in one of his moods again, I best go appease him, probably some minor token or fine." And goes south for his son. Unfortunately this is the time when "A Bit Crazy" Aerys II becomes "The Mad King" Aerys II. He burns Lord Stark alive and strangles Brandon before him.

Not being enough for Aerys, he then goes to the Eyrie and demands that Lord Jon Arryn give up his two wards, the young Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark. Well Arryn can put 2+2 together and get death, and having grown to rather like his charges, and with Ned and Robert not wanting to be burned alive the three start Robert's Rebellion. Which was decisively won at the Battle of the Trident when Robert's smaller force beat Rhaegar's and Robert slew Prince Rhaegar himself.

Now all that was left of the war was mopping it up. King's Landing was still held and Lyanna was being kept at a place called "The Tower of Joy." Getting rid of the murderous Mad King took priority so the army marched south. But it seemed to be a race between the rebelling army and the Lannister army, headed by Tywin the former hand of the King himself.

Aerys opens up the gates for the loyal Tywin, and instead of getting a nice boost to his defenses gets his city plundered. Rhaegar's wife and children were killed brutally (allegedly by Gregor Clegane) and Aery's himself was slain by his own Kingsguardsman Jaime Lannister.

One final place to go then, Ned and 6 buddies travel to the Tower of Joy to get Lyanna back. Once there they meet three members of the Kingsguard, the Lord Commander Gerold Hightower, and the unbeatable Ser Arthur Dayne, and some other guy. 7 v 3 and the only survivors were Ned and his bannerman Howland Reed. So Ned finally get's to see his sister after the war is over, only to find her dying on a bed of blood and roses and with the last words "Promise me, Ned."

Draw whatever conclusions you want from the tale.

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Just want to point out several of those details didn't come from the first book. Right now in my reread I'm about 2/3 of the way through book 2, and while we do have most of that story, we haven't gotten the details on how Brandon and Rickard died. We also haven't at this pint gotten the details of the tourney with Lyana and Rhaegar (the first mention of it was earlier in book 2, Brandon mentions it, though I forget the context).

I want to say the detail of Aerys demanding Robert/Ned's heads hasn't been revealed yet either. But sadly even coming fresh off a reread my memory isn't what it used to be.

[The_JJ]

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That's actually one of the major themes of GoT. The first time you see Ned Stark, he's beheading a deserter in front of his sons. Afterwards, he basically hits the viewer over the head that if you want to be responsible in your use of power, you have to be willing to wield it yourself. Contrast that with Joffrey, who is so thoroughly vile in no small part because he always delegates his violence to others. He doesn't smack Sansa; he gets his knights to do it for him. He doesn't have the slightest appreciation for the power he is wielding, and apparently all he learned from the incident with the cat was not to do the cutting yourself.

For what it's worth, I'm thinking Cersei had something to do with it. Joffrey was her meal ticket to power, and she doesn't seem to distinguish between good parenting and parenting that protects her interests from all comers. We won't see this for a while, but she'll treat Tommen and Myrcella very differently once they start affecting her calculations for power.

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I don't know about that actually. The one consistent thing about Cersei is that she's done her best to do right by her children, even to the detriment of her power politics. Witness Tyrion's attempts to secure good alliances for House Lannister and the Iron Throne in which he had to go over Cersei's head because she wasn't ready to let her children be away from her. She's a psycho bitch and a bad mother, but at least she loves her children.

[Dienekes]

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Just want to point out several of those details didn't come from the first book. Right now in my reread I'm about 2/3 of the way through book 2, and while we do have most of that story, we haven't gotten the details on how Brandon and Rickard died. We also haven't at this pint gotten the details of the tourney with Lyana and Rhaegar (the first mention of it was earlier in book 2, Brandon mentions it, though I forget the context).

I want to say the detail of Aerys demanding Robert/Ned's heads hasn't been revealed yet either. But sadly even coming fresh off a reread my memory isn't what it used to be.

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Bugger, well that's what I get for trying to use this blasted thing called my memory.

[kyoryu]

Ah...I see. Did they have any kids? Or was just:

*I love you* *I love you too* *kiss* *schlurt* *gurgle*

Well.... there's some speculation...

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No, really. Lots of speculation in here that could be series-spoiling, but is pretty well accepted over at the Song of Ice and Fire boards.

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There is much speculation that Jon Snow is, in fact, the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Under this theory, Jon would be, in fact, the rightful ruler of Westeros, and the promise Ned made to Lyanna would be to keep him out of the whole king-making-game-of-thrones mess. Which is why Ned took him back, even though it ticked off Catelyn, protected him, and allowed him to go to the Wall rather than King's Landing - and by taking the Night Watch's oath, he gives up any claim to title or lands - again keeping his promise.

It's consistent with what we know of the actual events, it's consistent with Ned's character (more so than "he had a bastard child that he insisted on keeping around"), and is very consistent with Jon's status as Gary Stu.

[Axolotl]

Well.... there's some speculation...

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There is much speculation that Jon Snow is, in fact, the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Under this theory, Jon would be, in fact, the rightful ruler of Westeros,

What?

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How on earth would that make Jon the rightful heir to the Iron Throne? Even under this theory he'd stilll be an illegitimate bastard.

[Zmflavius]

What?

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How on earth would that make Jon the rightful heir to the Iron Throne? Even under this theory he'd stilll be an illegitimate bastard.

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There is a somewhat more tenuous theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in secret, Rhaegar exercising traditional Targaryen polygamy. This theory has far less acceptance across the fanbase, because it and its consequences viewed as being a bit too cliche for Martin. However, it, at this moment, isn't really ruled out.

[VanBuren]

And Jon's not really a Gary Stu. He's just successful. Which is rare in Martin's world apparently.

[Axolotl]

And Jon's not really a Gary Stu. He's just successful. Which is rare in Martin's world apparently.

He's not even that successful really. He ends the third book on a high note but things don't exactly go well for him and it doesn't look like things are going to get worse for him in the near future. I think the main problem he has is that he's so whiny especially in contrast to some other PoV characters who have much more reason to whine.

[kyoryu]

And Jon's not really a Gary Stu. He's just successful. Which is rare in Martin's world apparently.

I think it's more than that. Let's look at what he does.

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Goes to the Wall. Initially pisses everyone off, but then everyone realizes what a great guy he is, except for the people that are basically two dimensional jerks that everyone hates.

One of the best fighters on the Watch. Yeah, some of that's because of his training as a lord's bastard, but you're still comparing that to people that have trained and fought for bloody years.

Single-handedly gets the information to save the Wall from the wilding invasion.

Pretty much single-handedly defends the Wall from the wilding invasion.

Becomes the favorite of the Lord Commander of the Watch. Why? Um...

Breaks just about every vow he makes, kills a member of the Watch, and hey, that's all fine and dandy.

Becomes just about the youngest Lord Commander of the Watch. Why? Because the fat kid makes a case for him.

Is very possibly the titular, prophecied character of the whole series - If he is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, his "song" would be a Song of Ice and Fire, as he would blend the "fire" of the Targaryens with the "ice" of the Starks.

Don't get me wrong, I like the character. But seeing how he's just awesome at everything, and everyone loves him except for the two dimensional baddies, and his meteoric rise to power.... yeah, lots of Gary Stu potential. Especially in contrast to everyone else in the series...

[Dienekes]

I think it's more than that. Let's look at what he does.

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Goes to the Wall. Initially pisses everyone off, but then everyone realizes what a great guy he is, except for the people that are basically two dimensional jerks that everyone hates.

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He pisses off a few people, but he was being a jackass, and he after he had his "hey stop being a ***** moment he got better and made, 3 friends. More respect him now, but only Sam, Pyp, and that other guy really hang out with him.

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One of the best fighters on the Watch. Yeah, some of that's because of his training as a lord's bastard, but you're still comparing that to people that have trained and fought for bloody years.

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He has only been called the best fighter of the new recruits. We are given no evidence he's one of the best in the Watch. Now he has natural talent for sure, but he's no Qhorin Halfhand.

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Single-handedly gets the information to save the Wall from the wilding invasion.

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Which involved the hardest testing of his dedication to the vows and him betraying the woman he loved.

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Pretty much single-handedly defends the Wall from the wilding invasion.

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He orders a few guys around to shoot arrows down at the giant horde below them. It didn't exactly take the highest level of intelligence. And single-handedly? Tell that to the badass known as Donal Noye.

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Becomes the favorite of the Lord Commander of the Watch. Why? Um...

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He showed very obvious leadership qualities. I mean, blatantly demonstrating fairness and a means to getting the criminal scum to work together. His appointment to the Lord Commander's steward makes absolute sense.

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Breaks just about every vow he makes, kills a member of the Watch, and hey, that's all fine and dandy.

Becomes just about the youngest Lord Commander of the Watch. Why? Because the fat kid makes a case for him.

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He did come back with intelligence on what Mance Rayder was doing. However I definitely agree the appointment to Lord Commander was a stretch and is personally a point I disagree with in Marten's handling of events.

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Is very possibly the titular, prophecied character of the whole series - If he is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, his "song" would be a Song of Ice and Fire, as he would blend the "fire" of the Targaryens with the "ice" of the Starks.

Don't get me wrong, I like the character. But seeing how he's just awesome at everything, and everyone loves him except for the two dimensional baddies, and his meteoric rise to power.... yeah, lots of Gary Stu potential. Especially in contrast to everyone else in the series...

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Maybe the prophesied character, can't use that against him yet. Honestly, the only ability that he has demonstrated that he excels at without reason is his leadership, and even that he is quite a few steps behind Robb's natural talent for it.

[Lord Raziere]

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yea and last time I checked, Jon didn't really want to go through any of that. He really just wanted to be a ranger of the Nights Watch, not the freaking Commander.

that and this is not a universe where holding positions of power is a good thing.

Jon basically has the heavy responsibility of defending the Seven Kingdoms, which is looking more and more like the Seven Ruined Kingdoms, with only a small remnant force of what the Watch used to have that can't possibly defend the entire Wall up against the Others, which has been even more weakened by fighting the Wildlings. oh and Winter is Coming and he is at the northernmost place in the seven kingdoms, where the years-long winter will be at its worst and his men will by dying of being frozen or gangrene or other such wintery deaths, depleting his forces even more, compounded by the fact that there will be probably be a famine and drought since the cold will be freezing all the water and killing all the crops, while all the remaining kingdoms are hoarding what little food they have left that they DIDN'T burn in their stupid civil war, how utterly awesome. I envy him for his ice-cool job.

and his only back up is Stannis and Melisandre, the most inflexible guy in the world and the pyro-happy priest, hey at least he has more men and someone who can actually fight the Others right?

yea, I can totally see how Jon Snow the emotionally dead bastard commander of an army of criminals is the biggest gary stu in the series and how he is practically god.

and just in case you are internet tone deaf, the parts with italics is, you guessed it, SARCASM!! You win a cookie crumb for your hard work on figuring that out

[Seerow]

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yea and last time I checked, Jon didn't really want to go through any of that. He really just wanted to be a ranger of the Nights Watch, not the freaking Commander.

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That's one of the things that lends itself to the Gary Stu-dom though. Where others work for their successes (or failures as it may be), Jon Snow does well at everything and rises to command within 2 years of going to the Wall without ever really working for it.It just gets handed to him on a silver platter while we see his internal monologue about how bad life is for him.

If Jon were actively putting himself forward and working to take command and gain respect of those on the Wall, it would be one thing. But the guy literally wakes up and is told "Hey bud you're the lord commander"

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Jon basically has the heavy responsibility of defending the Seven Kingdoms, which is looking more and more like the Seven Ruined Kingdoms, with only a small remnant force of what the Watch used to have that can't possibly defend the entire Wall up against the Others, which has been even more weakened by fighting the Wildlings. oh and Winter is Coming and he is at the northernmost place in the seven kingdoms, where the years-long winter will be at its worst and his men will by dying of being frozen or gangrene or other such wintery deaths, depleting his forces even more, compounded by the fact that there will be probably be a famine and drought since the cold will be freezing all the water and killing all the crops, while all the remaining kingdoms are hoarding what little food they have left that they DIDN'T burn in their stupid civil war, how utterly awesome. I envy him for his ice-cool job.

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Nobody said they envy him his job. But we (pretty reasonably) assume he will succeed at that job. I personally expect he will succeed like he has succeeded at everything else, piggybacking on the deeds of better men while whining about how bad he has it as LC.

And that's the point. He's not a Gary Stu because he has a charmed life. He's a Gary Stu because he succeeds at everything without trying. When he does something wrong, the universe bends over backwards to have everyone forgive him for it. I honestly am not sure you quite understand what a Gary Stu is given your evidence that he is not one.

I'm honestly half surprised he didn't take up Stannis on his offer to become Lord of Winterfell on top of LC.

[BRC]

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Concerning Jon becoming Lord Commander, it was a perfect storm of events that led to his appointment.
First, you have the fact that there was no clear successor to Lord Commander Mormont. Under other circumstances, I have a feeling that either the Chief Ranger (Benjen Stark), or one of the other castle commanders would be the obvious choice. However, the Watch was short one Chief Ranger, and the other two commanders happened to hate each other. The result was that, instead of a decision about who would make the best Lord Commander, you had a deadlock.
Second: You have Stannis forcing a decision by locking the Watch in their hall until they came out with a lord commander. Under normal circumstances in such a deadlock the Watch would bicker and argue, but eventually they would reach a compromise. However, since you now have a room full of hungry men who cannot leave until they reach a decision, in such a circumstances an immediate solution (as opposed to extended debate and compromise) seems better and better. Sub optimal perhaps, but it lets them eat dinner.
Third: Never underestimate the power of current events. Had Jon not JUST led a successful defense of the wall, he would never have even been considered as an option, even if Sam had brought him up.


So, basically circumstances conspired to let Jon be Lord Commander. Whether this makes him less Sueish (He just got lucky*), or More so (THE UNIVERSE ITSELF VOTED FOR HIM) is up to you.

*for a given value of "Luck"

[Seerow]

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I fail to see how "He just got lucky" is any less sueish given the end result in the same. It's the fact that he got elected without trying or wanting the job that makes it ridiculous, not that "the universe voted for him" rather than "He got lucky in the right place at the right time".

[Xondoure]

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I fail to see how "He just got lucky" is any less sueish given the end result in the same. It's the fact that he got elected without trying or wanting the job that makes it ridiculous, not that "the universe voted for him" rather than "He got lucky in the right place at the right time".

Admittedly this is how life works. Something happens, and it is not always the most probable outcome.

[Lord Raziere]

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I don't consider someone who easily succeeds at things he doesn't want a Sue.... that is just being unfair to the guy. I mean thats like blaming someone for carrying out a necessary death or something, they may not like it but they have to do it, I mean why blame a guy for pragmatism? it needs to be done, so it is done otherwise things go even worse than they are. if it is better than the alternatives, no matter how bad, than at least you tried the best you could do.
Jon Snow was pragmatic, which means he did right, even if he didn't want to do it, which is a better character than someone who kept to a code that lead them to death like Eddard.

[0Megabyte]

I notice that in almost any other series, a character who goes through the trouble Jon goes through would be considered a normal character, and not called a marty stu.

I have a feeling that he only seems sue-like in comparison. In a series where so many human beings die and fail in equal measure, a character who

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is an adequate fighter considering his training (and cheats to make up the difference via his pet wolf), who's real leadership capability stands out as much as it does only because practically everyone with more experience and capability is dead, who has had injuries which still bother him two books later, who has only succeeded in his missions at great personal cost (losing the woman he loved, and a feeling of lost kinship with people he half wished to join), who is mistrusted by not-quite-sufficiently large portions of his organization, including high-ranking members, who has become the leader only as a compromise solution to break a deadlock between two unpalatable choices, and who is now leader at literally the worst possible time, with a mess on his hands that would make him envy Barack Obama in 2008,

can seem sue-ish only by comparison.

In any other series he is a well-rounded character with significant, growing difficulties, and is too compromised in morality to be a truly classic hero.

If you want a Mary Sue, look at Kvothe. If he wasn't so well written, and if he didn't have the innkeeper thing going for him, his actual actions would make him come off as a mary sue.

[The Glyphstone]

This is why we need a "Relative Sue" trope. In a more typical series, Jon would be entirely unremarkable and average. In GoT, being even moderately successful (or simply staying alive) in a world where everything sucks for everyone, and it's not a question of if you die so much as how badly you screw up and fail before dying, he can come off as quite Sue-ish.

[Erloas]

Yeah, I never really saw much of a problem with Jon. There are a lot of other characters that have gone through at least parts of the books and done things they shouldn't have been able to do and lived through things they shouldn't have. It happens to be that many of them have died at this point, but many of them managed to live an almost charmed life (for the setting at least) up until the point where it stopped being charmed. I think Tyrion gets away with a lot more in the books then seems reasonable, and its only given the fact that he is portrayed (at least starting off) as being on the "bad side" that he isn't considered worse then Jon in that sort of thing. Robb had much the same thing going for him for almost 3 full books, its just that at this point we're past his high point, at 2.5 books in he seemed almost unstoppable.

Seeing as how we've got at least 3 books left Martin still has a lot of character killing (or maiming if they're lucky) to do. Once the story is done then we can really judge if Jon (or anyone else for that matter) was a Gary Stu.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Jon:

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The real reason Jon got made Lord Commander is that the Night's Watch is not really a democratic meritocracy.

Jon got elected because he was a Stark. "Riding the coattails of better men" is how the aristocracy works. They made in clear that there was a tradition of people being made Lord Commander young and Starks being made lord commander and that in the glory days of the Night's Watch the Lord Commander was pretty much a King.

Calling Jon a Gary Stu for being made Lord Commander makes as much sense as calling Rob one for being King in the North or Joffery one for being crowned.

[Borgh]

dear people using spoilers, please label them, makes it easier for the spoiler-curious among us to cherry-pick the things I would like to know.

[Axolotl]

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He's a Gary Stu because he succeeds at everything without trying.

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What does he succeed at? He manages to kill the wights in book 1 but that leads to him being given an injury that still cripples him several books later. He manages to escape from the wildling (being given another injury) and leas the defence of the wall for a few days. Now I don't want to be too dismissive but defending a 700 foot tall wall from stone age savages isn't a great millitary achievement. The only other thing that could be counted as a success is being made lord commander and the consequences of that are Cersei planning to send assassins after him and several spoilers for book 5 say it won't go well for him.

In contrast to this he's badly injured several times, he's forced to help kill the woman he loves, he's imprisoned in a cell made of ice, has a variety of powerful people plotting to kill; him and even as Lord Commander he's subserviant to Stannis. He's far less successful than almost any of the big villans.

Personally I'll be surprised if he survives the series.

[Artemis97]

On Jon (Book Spoilers):

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Having just watched the last episode, and hearing the shouts of the Stark bannerman declaring Robb "King of the North", it got me thinking. They have a point, that the Starks were never conquered. They are kings in their own right. Could it be possible the king Mellisandre is looking for is a Stark?

[Zmflavius]

On Jon (Book Spoilers):

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Having just watched the last episode, and hearing the shouts of the Stark bannerman declaring Robb "King of the North", it got me thinking. They have a point, that the Starks were never conquered. They are kings in their own right. Could it be possible the king Mellisandre is looking for is a Stark?

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She has a half-Stark at the wall already, and who's to say he won't end up being burned alive?

[Axolotl]

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She has a half-Stark at the wall already, and who's to say he won't end up being burned alive?

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I don't get why they don't just burn Mance. I mean he's their enemy and a traitor who's going to be sentanced to death anyway, surely he's perfect for what they need?

[BRC]

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I don't get why they don't just burn Mance. I mean he's their enemy and a traitor who's going to be sentanced to death anyway, surely he's perfect for what they need?

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As of the end of Feast for Crows, I think that's her plan. However, It's not clear if that will work, since they are not sure at what point you become a "king" for magical component purposes. The only thing that makes Mance a "King", as opposed to a Warlord, is that he called himself one.