Warhammer 40K Tabletop XII: "Now in Rapid Fire range!"

[Incomp]

If autocannons were that great chaos armies would be full of autocannon toting Havoks.

No they wouldn't, because Chaos has obliterators, which are filled with win.

That said, I understand that autocannons are one of the better setups for havocs.

[gabado]

this is a white scars tournament list i came up with. it's for a 500pt, 1 HQ, 2+ TROOP, 0-1 FAST ATTACK, 0-1 HEAVY SUPPORT tournament game:

Spoiler

Show

HQ:
space marine captain 155pt
space marine bike
power sword
melta bombs
TROOP:
biker squad (5 strong) 185pt
power sword
plasma guns x2
biker squad (5 strong) 160pt
melta guns x2
total: 500pt

its goal is to get into close combat as fast as possible. the melta guns, plasma guns, and melta bombs are me realizing that i don't have any anti-tank weaponry. i was wondering if it's worth taking the plasma/melta stuff, it's only a 500pt tournament, but i don't really know what to do with those points otherwise.

[Tarinaky]

its goal is to get into close combat as fast as possible. the melta guns, plasma guns, and melta bombs are me realizing that i don't have any anti-tank weaponry. i was wondering if it's worth taking the plasma/melta stuff, it's only a 500pt tournament, but i don't really know what to do with those points otherwise.

Given the points limit I don't think you should expect to need Meltabombs.

I'm not, however, sure if 5-man Bike squads are effective in close combat to begin with so you might be better off getting rid of the Powersword and Meltabombs - keep the Plasmaguns and use the spare points for an Attack Bike maybe?

The key advantages of Bikes are Turbo Boosters, Relentless and Toughness 5. Rapid-fire Plasmaguns let you use all 3 of those effectively. Closecombat speccing only lets you use 2.

[Closet_Skeleton]

No they wouldn't, because Chaos has obliterators, which are filled with win.

That said, I understand that autocannons are one of the better setups for havocs.

If all you have to kill are armour 11 vehicles then autocannon havocs are actually better than Obliterators because you can have twice as many of them and they don't really die that much quicker because they aren't so massive a melta gun target. Its just that Obliterators are such all rounders that specialist units are redundant.

My only real point is that Riflemen (psyriflemen being differant since they also slaughter tyranid warriors) are not good. Mech is good and Riflemen counter mech (and not even that well with the guns you can mount on razorbacks being good dread killers in return). If mech was rare and hard to use then Riflemen would be as useful as Leman Russ Executioners.

[Squark]

this is a white scars tournament list i came up with. it's for a 500pt, 1 HQ, 2+ TROOP, 0-1 FAST ATTACK, 0-1 HEAVY SUPPORT tournament game:

Spoiler

Show

HQ:
space marine captain 155pt
space marine bike
power sword
melta bombs
TROOP:
biker squad (5 strong) 185pt
power sword
plasma guns x2
biker squad (5 strong) 160pt
melta guns x2
total: 500pt

its goal is to get into close combat as fast as possible. the melta guns, plasma guns, and melta bombs are me realizing that i don't have any anti-tank weaponry. i was wondering if it's worth taking the plasma/melta stuff, it's only a 500pt tournament, but i don't really know what to do with those points otherwise.

I could be wrong, but I'm not sure bikes are legal as troops in vanilla marines, and they definately aren't scoring units* in vanilla marines. In order to use bikes as troops, you need to take Kosario Kahn or whatever the White Scars Captain is (Chapter tactics like that are only available to you if you take the chapter's special character)


*And a list with no scoring lists is a bad list, as far as I know. Unless they're totally irrelevant to the tournament.

[Talkkno]

I could be wrong, but I'm not sure bikes are legal as troops in vanilla marines, and they definately aren't scoring units* in vanilla marines. In order to use bikes as troops, you need to take Kosario Kahn or whatever the White Scars Captain is (Chapter tactics like that are only available to you if you take the chapter's special)


*And a list with no scoring lists is a bad list, as far as I know. Unless they're totally irrelevant to the tournament.

If you have a captain on a bike they count as troops.

[Cheesegear]

I could be wrong, but I'm not sure bikes are legal as troops in vanilla marines

They are if you do it right.

Ninja'd; And I don't like repeating what's plainly written in a Codex.

[Winterwind]

and they definately aren't scoring units* in vanilla marines.

And just to complete what the gentlemen above me already posted, they do become scoring units when they become troops under the above mentioned condition, too. It's only vehicles and units that have an explicit special rule saying they can never be scoring (like Death Company) that cannot be scoring even if they become troops.

[Renegade Paladin]

Given the points limit I don't think you should expect to need Meltabombs.

Company Command Squad - 60
-2 flamers

Veteran Squad - 70

Veteran Squad - 70

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 150

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 150

Total: 500

You were saying? Now, that can't happen with his list restrictions, but it's totally possible in normal 500 points. Use the infantry to bubble-wrap the tanks in a back corner, sit back, and blast everything to oblivion. With the list restrictions, I'd replace one of the battle tanks with a Hellhound and use the points savings to put a lascannon in somewhere.

[Cheesegear]

You were saying? Now, that can't happen with his list restrictions...

Fairly certain Leman Russes come in squads of two...

[Renegade Paladin]

Fairly certain Leman Russes come in squads of two...

Oh, right. I never do that because I don't have that many Russes, and I hate being destroyed on 4+ But yes, could happen. Never mind.

[Squark]

And just to complete what the gentlemen above me already posted, they do become scoring units when they become troops under the above mentioned condition, too. It's only vehicles and units that have an explicit special rule saying they can never be scoring (like Death Company) that cannot be scoring even if they become troops.

Oh. Huh. I thought... never mind. I don't own the codex, so I was just going off something I half remembered. Hmm...

Well, anyway. I've been doing some math in my head at the moment, and I just want to check my conclusion. Against anything other than a horde army, Thunder hammer + Storm Shield > 2 Lightning Claws. I didn't run the hard numbers yet, so can anyone confirm/correct what I'm thinking.

[Renegade Paladin]

Probably. Fun fact: A squad of lightning claw Terminators can't hurt an armored Sentinel, and it will tie them up indefinitely.

[HalfTangible]

Probably. Fun fact: A squad of lightning claw Terminators can't hurt an armored Sentinel, and it will tie them up indefinitely.

... s- seriously? i thought Sentinels were supposed to be LIGHTLY armored D=

[Closet_Skeleton]

Probably. Fun fact: A squad of lightning claw Terminators can't hurt an armored Sentinel, and it will tie them up indefinitely.

Pity how that's the only use for an armoured sentinel and that there's really no way the sentinel is fast enough to guarantee it happening.

Lightning claws are such overkill that there's no reason not to have at least 1 thunder hammer in the unit.

[Renegade Paladin]

... s- seriously? i thought Sentinels were supposed to be LIGHTLY armored D=

FA 12. You always hit walkers in the front armor in assault. Terminators are S4 without power fists or thunder hammers.

Pity how that's the only use for an armoured sentinel and that there's really no way the sentinel is fast enough to guarantee it happening.

Nonsense. They also carry plasma cannons. And why does the Sentinel's speed matter? Assault Terminators will come to you as rapidly as they're able.

[Cheesegear]

Nonsense. They also carry plasma cannons. And why does the Sentinel's speed matter? Assault Terminators will come to you as rapidly as they're able.

Armoured Sentinel - 75 Points
Plasma Cannon

Infantry Squad - 75 Points
Plasmagun, Autocannon

Interesting.
Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws will not be Assaulting Sentinels. I have to believe players are smarter than that. If that is the case, hopefully one of the LCATs will die straight up so the Marines can Combat Tactics out.


So, July 1st. It occurs to me that it's almost Tax Return time.

Do I buy a Titan (specifically, Warhound), or a whole messload of Terminators?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Do I buy a Titan (specifically, Warhound), or a whole messload of Terminators?

Dark Eldar.

[banjo1985]

I know I'd get more use out the Terminators, I guess it depends on what you'd use the most. My game group never goes above 2000 points though, so I'd never get chance to use a Warhound anyway.

Or Dark Eldar. I did that, and they're still in a pile waiting to be put together.

On a completely seperate note, are units of 12 Orks any good at all? I want to use my five trukks, battlewagons and kopta's to make a Kult of Speed, but I find it hard to see how a unit of 12 Orks can be effective. I could send the trukks off in two's to do double assaults, but that's really susceptible to the inevitable Trukk explosion phenomena known as being shot at by anything better than a lasgun.

[Cheesegear]

On a completely seperate note, are units of 12 Orks any good at all? I want to use my five trukks, battlewagons and kopta's to make a Kult of Speed, but I find it hard to see how a unit of 12 Orks can be effective. I could send the trukks off in two's to do double assaults, but that's really susceptible to the inevitable Trukk explosion phenomena known as being shot at by anything better than a lasgun.

Oh...Orks...They haven't come up in a while. Like...Oh...Err...Wow.

Yes. Units of 12 Orks are fine. If you've got six of them. These days, Orks are playing as the Horde-type army that they should be playing. Nob Bikers have been reduced in effectiveness (but by no means are they a bad investment), so that means more players are running Green Tide.

However, Mech is still King. And, Horde-style armies need target saturation. So bring lots of Trukks. I see you've got five; make it six.

[Talkkno]

Oh...Orks...They haven't come up in a while. Like...Oh...Err...Wow.

Yes. Units of 12 Orks are fine. If you've got six of them. These days, Orks are playing as the Horde-type army that they should be playing. Nob Bikers have been reduced in effectiveness (but by no means are they a bad investment), so that means more players are running Green Tide.

However, Mech is still King. And, Horde-style armies need target saturation. So bring lots of Trukks. I see you've got five; make it six.

I've had the same question actually, and in addation, is it worth in the Kult of Speed example banjo brought up to give any of the boyz 'eavy armor?

[Cheesegear]

I've had the same question actually, and in addation, is it worth in the Kult of Speed example banjo brought up to give any of the boyz 'eavy armor?

Always. Nearly every army you face these days rolls around with AP5. And has usually I4 or 5 in Assault. With units of 12 Boyz, you need the extra armour to, well, survive.

[Talkkno]

Always. Nearly every army you face these days rolls around with AP5. And has usually I4 or 5 in Assault. With units of 12 Boyz, you need the extra armour to, well, survive.

Too bad you can only give one unit of boyz with 'eavy armor then...

[Cheesegear]

Too bad you can only give one unit of boyz with 'eavy armor then...

Grotsnik is quite good.

[Renegade Paladin]

Armoured Sentinel - 75 Points
Plasma Cannon

Infantry Squad - 75 Points
Plasmagun, Autocannon

Interesting.
Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws will not be Assaulting Sentinels. I have to believe players are smarter than that. If that is the case, hopefully one of the LCATs will die straight up so the Marines can Combat Tactics out.

Infantry squads aren't bought in isolation, and you know it. I don't personally employ Sentinels, though my partner in the recently ended campaign did, and they tore the Marines a new one right up until the suicide Sternguard showed up with their combi-meltas. They did for the Sentinels and the lascannon infantry, though the infantry's death was delayed for a round while the sole surviving Sentinel (with its plasma cannon shot off) assaulted the Sternguard and kept them tied up until Pedro Kantor managed to get in contact with it. And it wasn't quite so suicidal as advertised, either, since Marines won't die no matter how much you shoot them. (Mathhammer, as we all know, is a bloody liar.)

[Winterwind]

Nob Bikers have been reduced in effectiveness[...]

How so, if I may ask? Solely because of the arrival of Grey Knights with their S5 no-FNP-force-weapons (well, S5 or force, one or the other, unless there's a character attached), or are there other reasons for it, too?

[Cheesegear]

Infantry squads aren't bought in isolation, and you know it.

Fair enough.

Armoured Sentinel (x2/3) - 150/225 Points
Plasma Cannons

Although, honestly, if you're taking two, you may as well make it three.

Infantry Platoon - 225 Points
Command [70 Points]
Medi-Pack, Vox-Caster, [Grenade Launcher or Mortar]

Infantry Squad [80 Points]
Plasma gun, Vox-Caster, Autocannon

Infantry Squad [75 Points]
Plasma gun, Autocannon

Also, three ASs for 225 points, an Executioner is looking more attractive. Its not like the ASs are Scouting or Outflanking or doing anything useful...

How so, if I may ask? Solely because of the arrival of Grey Knights with their S5 no-FNP-force-weapons

That mostly covers it. But, Dark Eldar brought some fun stuff to the meta-game too. Notably Incubi which do not play nice with Nobs. And Grotesques which do the same job, better.

[Borgh]

Or, for a mere 160 points you bring a Demolisher and have a Demolisher.

[Cheesegear]

Or, for a mere 160 points you bring a Demolisher and have a Demolisher.

Why do I find this sentence so funny?

Or, yeah. Similarly, 150 points (2 ASs) gets you a Battle Tank. And if you don't like Battle Tanks, I need to question your sanity.

[Winterwind]

That mostly covers it. But, Dark Eldar brought some fun stuff to the meta-game too. Notably Incubi which do not play nice with Nobs. And Grotesques which do the same job, better.

Ah, I see. Okay, thank you.