Vorpal! Overrated or over-powered?

[Korivan]

Get alot of love for the vorpal from people. Don't consider it overpowered at all though.

Thoughts?

[Harrow]

Vorpal isn't anywhere near worth the price. It only works on a 20, so it's more rare than a critical hit, and it won't take out a large portion of very dangerous enemies.

[sonofzeal]

Obscenely expensive, and quintiscentially unreliable. Textbook "slap this on an artifact sword to make it seem uber-nifty without actually breaking the game".

The minimum list price for a Vorpal weapon is 72,000 gp. If you can't get a hell of a lot more power for a fraction of the price, you're doing something wrong.

[ArcturusV]

Artifact of older editions. Back with Called Shots being in the game it was more useful. But without them, decidedly less so.

[Korivan]

That's more or less what I was thinking. Sure, even after undead (except vampires), constructs, oozes, plants, incomporeal, some outsiders/aberations/monsters, there's still plenty of creatures out there to kill with it. You still only have 5% chance at working, assuming you get enough shots in to get up the odds of hitting, and have to confirm it.

Does it work against immunity to crits? If not, that makes it worse still.

[Emperor Ing]

Vorpal will only work 5% of the time, and that's assuming it's slapped on a compatible weapon and used against enemies that are vulnerable to crits at all. It is by no means overpowered, and even if you somehow have ridiculous luck and you're landing 20s at obscene rates, it's not difficult for GMs to counter this with oozes, constructs, undead, or any number of magic items or spells that can grant immunity to crits being relatively easy to get. The Greater Gem of Fortification from Draconomnomnomicon comes to mind.

For the same price you're better off with a Keen, Brilliant Energy weapon. And even then that's probably not the best bang you're gonna get with your buck. Put simply, Vorpal sucks. It might have been awesome in 3.0 (where it autokills when you land a crit, not just a 20) but in 3.5 (which is what i'm assuming you're playing) it's a newb-trap. Avoid these weapons like the plague, and if you get one from treasure, sell it at your earliest convenience.

[Ravens_cry]

Neither. I might possibly use it on a late game TWF build some time, but even then, not sure it is worth it.
A much cheaper idea would be to load up on sleep arrows and hope they roll a 1 on their save. Same chance as you rolling a 20.

[Der_DWSage]

Indeed. There are rare outliers I could see for Vorpal weapons (Halfling Machine-gun Master Thrower build with a boatload of Returning Vorpal Daggers) but on the whole? Underpowered for their price. If they were closer to a +3, then I could see it being worth it...for low-strength characters that rely more on the effects of their weapon than the actual damage dealt.

[Harrow]

Let's do a little thought experiment, shall we? Let's assume we have a first level character, either Fighter or Barbarian, and give him a +1 Vorpal Longsword. Does it make him appreciably more powerful than just a +1 Longsword? He sometimes autokills enemies instead of possibly getting a critical, which at level one would probably kill most enemies anyway. Could he charge something really strong and kill it in one hit? No. No he could not. It would have to not have reach, need a head, he would have to get a 20, it would be a single target attack... under optimal conditions, it may let a low level melee character kill something he isn't supposed to. More likely, he'll get himself killed trying.

Now, give him the +1 longsword and the gold difference (70,000 gold) in whatever other gear that he's free to choose. Does this make him appreciably stronger? Well, +4 STR, CON, AC, and to all saves leaves him 6,000 left, which makes him much stronger than he was before.

Now, this is playing with the numbers a bit. A character who can actually afford a Vorpal blade within WBL isn't going to benefit as much from an extra 70,000, as they are already expected to have many of the things the level 1 character would probably spend his money on. But, by this point, there are more defenses against it. Vorpal is just as unreliable as it is expensive, there are plenty of other things you could be spending money on to actually improve your chances of making it out of a fight alive.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Nitpick: since vorpal doesn't trigger unless you confirm the crit, it's only a 4.75% chance to activate if you could hit the target with anything but a natural 1. In the case of a low-op figther or a particularly tanky enemy, it only gets worse.

[Carth]

Better lucky than good pairs nicely with a vorpal weapon, one fell into my lap in a campaign once, and having a natural 1 turn into a natural 20 for decapitation is pretty nice, even if it's only once a day.

[eggynack]

Nitpick: since vorpal doesn't trigger unless you confirm the crit, it's only a 4.75% chance to activate if you could hit the target with anything but a natural 1. In the case of a low-op figther or a particularly tanky enemy, it only gets worse.

I don't think this seems like a nitpick at all. If your character is hitting on everything but a natural one, then the fighter is probably doing way more damage on average by using power attack. While the fighter's super big +20 hit is probably going to confirm every time, his final +6 iterative is much less likely to do so. Also, the best way to have a high chance of vorpalling (totally a word) is by using two vorpal weapons with two weapon fighting. This has the combined effect of reducing your average damage from the first point, and further lowering your chance to confirm on the second.

[Tvtyrant]

I think the biggest problem with the vorpal weapon is that you are one shotting a lot of things anyways. If it was a health-bloat system like 4E it would be nice because it would significantly up your average damage. In 3.5 everything dies in 1-3 hits anyways, so it hardly matters if you have a 1/20 chance for instant death.

Even more so is the existence of Save or Die spells, which have a much better than 1/20 chance of success and do the same thing better. In the Wu Jen's case, they have a spell that literally does the same thing with a better success chance.

[Carth]

Eek, one vorpal weapon is expensive enough, but if one were just trying to fool around, I can actually see two weapon bloodstorm blade vorpal throwing build actually being fun.

[BWR]

Considering the number of 20s rolled in my games, I would say it is very good indeed, if my players ever get a vorpal weapon.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't think this seems like a nitpick at all. If your character is hitting on everything but a natural one, then the fighter is probably doing way more damage on average by using power attack. While the fighter's super big +20 hit is probably going to confirm every time, his final +6 iterative is much less likely to do so. Also, the best way to have a high chance of vorpalling (totally a word) is by using two vorpal weapons with two weapon fighting. This has the combined effect of reducing your average damage from the first point, and further lowering your chance to confirm on the second.

What this amounts to, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that vorpal is most likely to actually trigger when you least need it to remain a viable threat.

Unless you're built around the idea of making vorpal effective (by optimizing crit' confirmation, and finding ways to force a natural 20 <better lucky than good>) it's just not.

In any case, my point was that, in isolation, it's actually -less- than a 5% chance of triggering on any individual attack.

[Emperor Ing]

Unless you're built around the idea of making vorpal effective (by optimizing crit' confirmation, and finding ways to force a natural 20 <better lucky than good>) it's just not.

even if your crit range is 8-20 (which believe me is not that hard) you still need to roll a 20 to trigger a Vorpal decapitation. Really the best way to try and trigger Vorpal is to make as many attacks as you can per round, each of which has that 5% chance of rolling that sweet sweet Nat 20 nectar. This can be done by TWFing and getting a Pounce effect from Lion Totem Barbarian dip or Pouncing Charge maneuver from Tome of Weeaboo Fightan Magic.

[Kelb_Panthera]

even if your crit range is 8-20 (which believe me is not that hard) you still need to roll a 20 to trigger a Vorpal decapitation. Really the best way to try and trigger Vorpal is to make as many attacks as you can per round, each of which has that 5% chance of rolling that sweet sweet Nat 20 nectar. This can be done by TWFing and getting a Pounce effect from Lion Totem Barbarian dip or Pouncing Charge maneuver from Tome of Weeaboo Fightan Magic.

I sad crit'-confirmation; not crit'-range or general crit'-fishing (both range and confirmation)

E.G. Power critical (+4 to confirmation rolls) helps a vorpal build while imp' critical (double threat range) does not.

[Vaz]

It's a lovely upgrade but it's randomness is a bit of a killer, removing the randomness from the game is something I consider to be the core of min-maxing, and having an ability trigger on 1/2 hits is not a good thing, especially.

However, for loot, it's a very nice thing, but not something I'd especially go out of my way to purchase.

[Erik Vale]

As has been said. It's a Trap!

But when it works on the right enemy, it's a plot breaker.
"Oh, I'm sorry Bob, were you planning on running away last Tuesday."
*Finishes mounting stuff head on the mantle piece*
"There, just perfect. It's always nice when things go well."

[TuggyNE]

even if your crit range is 8-20 (which believe me is not that hard) you still need to roll a 20 to trigger a Vorpal decapitation. Really the best way to try and trigger Vorpal is to make as many attacks as you can per round, each of which has that 5% chance of rolling that sweet sweet Nat 20 nectar. This can be done by TWFing and getting a Pounce effect from Lion Totem Barbarian dip or Pouncing Charge maneuver from Tome of Weeaboo Fightan Magic.

Especially if you mix in some Thri-Kreen and Totemist/PsyWar natural weapon spam. Vorpal ALL the things!

Edit: Hmm, might be a little annoying to get slashing type weapons, I guess. Probably more shenanigans needed there.

[Vaz]

Insectile Thri-Keen Totemist Kensai. Vorpal Keen Returning Throwing Fists (finding a way to count Fists as Slashing)?

[Der_DWSage]

You'd be looking for the Versatile Unarmed Strike, PhB II, p.85. Technically it's for an unarmed strike, but...if you're going for cheese anyhow, why not go for the gouda?

[Chronos]

Wouldn't an insectile thri-keen totemist's relevant attacks be claws anyway, not fists? Those are already slashing.

[Fouredged Sword]

Vaporal is nasty in the hands of any cleric with 5th level spells.

Surge of fortune allows you to treat a roll as a nat 20.

You can spend a 5th level slot to trigger vaporal.

It gets silly. I had an assassin in a game with a vaporal arrow (the slashing kind) bought at 1 50th the price (buying just one) and a scroll of surge of fortune.

The DM banned that spell and forbid the purchase of magic arrow in units of less than 50.

[Ernir]

Posting in a Vorpal thread to mention Surge of Fortune. It's one of the more reliable ways I know to get a kill.

EDIT: Swordsage'd...

The DM banned that spell

I'd probably just ban Vorpal instead, if it's this combo that's the worry.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Vorpal is not something you buy, it's just something you hope to get on your weapon. It's so terrible because it works so rarely, but when it does work, it's the best thing ever.


E.G.
DM: The cleric walks up into melee distance to do a finger of death (I don't know why), after seeing you get launched via telekenesis into his friend. Make an AOO.

Player: I roll a... NATURAL 20.

DM: ... *rolls save* He's dead...

Those are the best moments at the table.

[Nagukuk]

Two sessions ago Vorpal killed a very very nasty deep dragon we encountered, in the first round, first attack of the 3rd pc in the init order.

[Callin]

I always thought the Sharpness Property was way better and should have been ported over into 3rd and not Vorpal.

[eggynack]

Two sessions ago Vorpal killed a very very nasty deep dragon we encountered, in the first round, first attack of the 3rd pc in the init order.

That doesn't make it good though. There are opportunity costs that must be considered here. You could be using another weapon that does its damage more consistently, or you could be using other items that do more. Basically, at any level where you can afford a vorpal sword, there's probably a build that could kill that dragon at the same rate of efficiency or higher. You're resting all of the hopes for your build on arbitrary random chance, and that's not something that I consider overpowered.