rant: i don't understand tiers

[Hiro Protagonest]

When the OP specifies "I am playing a Monk, for whatever reason I am tied to this class and do not want advice to change classes" and you either don't read the whole OP or ignore the content and then post "play a swordsage" anyway that is rude. Yes.

And how often does that happen?

[Worira]

Uh, pretty frequently, actually.

[Fox Box Socks]

I've seen it quite a few times myself.

[Nightmarenny]

And how often does that happen?

Ok look. Stop. I added that clarification because I didn't want someone to respond with what I put. I didn't say it was a huge problem. I clarified my position. So lets back off ok?

[Yuki Akuma]

Uh, pretty frequently, actually.

Pretty much this, yes. Some people can be pretty rude when it comes to Monks.

Not that you should play a Monk if your character concept is "unarmed fighter". But if you really want to play the Monk class, go ahead...

[Veyr]

When the OP specifies "I am playing a Monk, for whatever reason I am tied to this class and do not want advice to change classes" and you either don't read the whole OP or ignore the content and then post "play a swordsage" anyway that is rude. Yes.

I completely disagree with you.

This is a discussion forum. People give their opinions and talk and discuss things. If the OP doesn't want my advice, he's free to ignore it, but that doesn't mean he gets to stop me from commenting so long as I do so politely. No one "owns" threads on this forum, saving perhaps Rich himself. Being OP does not give you complete control over what people say in the thread.

[Nightmarenny]

I completely disagree with you.

This is a discussion forum. People give their opinions and talk and discuss things. If the OP doesn't want my advice, he's free to ignore it, but that doesn't mean he gets to stop me from commenting so long as I do so politely. No one "owns" threads on this forum, saving perhaps Rich himself. Being OP does not give you complete control over what people say in the thread.

I'm not saying you should stop. It is Rude though. It is basically going off-topic.

[Qaera]

I'm not saying you should stop. It is Rude though. It is basically going off-topic.

How meta...

[Fox Box Socks]

Hold on there, Nightmarenny. When the OP is "please help me optimize this Monk", there will be handful of answers to the tune of "Monks can only go so far, so if you're looking for optimization you should really try a Swordsage".

But when the OP specifically states that he doesn't want to change class? No. The number of Swordsage people drops of significantly, to the point of stopping.

[Yuki Akuma]

Hold on there, Nightmarenny. When the OP is "please help me optimize this Monk", there will be handful of answers to the tune of "Monks can only go so far, so if you're looking for optimization you should really try a Swordsage".

But when the OP specifically states that he doesn't want to change class? No. The number of Swordsage people drops of significantly, to the point of stopping.

Not always, unfortunately.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hold on there, Nightmarenny. When the OP is "please help me optimize this Monk", there will be handful of answers to the tune of "Monks can only go so far, so if you're looking for optimization you should really try a Swordsage".

But when the OP specifically states that he doesn't want to change class? No. The number of Swordsage people drops of significantly, to the point of stopping.

This is when the people start mentioning Tashalatora.

[MeeposFire]

Pretty much this, yes. Some people can be pretty rude when it comes to Monks.

Not that you should play a Monk if your character concept is "unarmed fighter". But if you really want to play the Monk class, go ahead...

Yea that is why they call it Monkday around here.

By the way we are not saying that you don't have an objective point (that SS are better than monks at being monks). We are saying that people do go around saying don't play a monk because the tier system says it is a lower tier class and lower tier classes should not be played and yet the tier system does not actually say that.

[Veyr]

I agree with Swiftmongoose: I can't recall that happening often. It is not assumed when someone says "I want to play a monk!" that they strictly mean Monk, the class, especially since quite a few other classes (Cleric, Psychic Warrior, and Swordsage at the least) can do the concept of "mystic martial artist" far better than the Monk can.

When people do specify that they literally mean the Monk, class, and that they know what they're doing re: Monks being terrible, I don't think you'd see nearly as many comments about the Swordsage. Some might question why that decision was made, but let's be frank: it is a fairly mind-boggling decision, and it may be worthwhile to make sure that the OP does not have any misconceptions about what they're getting into.

[Nightmarenny]

Hold on there, Nightmarenny. When the OP is "please help me optimize this Monk", there will be handful of answers to the tune of "Monks can only go so far, so if you're looking for optimization you should really try a Swordsage".

But when the OP specifically states that he doesn't want to change class? No. The number of Swordsage people drops of significantly, to the point of stopping.

I don't recall contradicting this.

I agree with Swiftmongoose: I can't recall that happening often. It is not assumed when someone says "I want to play a monk!" that they strictly mean Monk, the class, especially since quite a few other classes (Cleric, Psychic Warrior, and Swordsage at the least) can do the concept of "mystic martial artist" far better than the Monk can.

When people do specify that they literally mean the Monk, class, and that they know what they're doing re: Monks being terrible, I don't think you'd see nearly as many comments about the Swordsage. Some might question why that decision was made, but let's be frank: it is a fairly mind-boggling decision, and it may be worthwhile to make sure that the OP does not have any misconceptions about what they're getting into.

nor this

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Are there any T5 or 6 classes that are fun, though? Do any of them really do anything that other classes can't, and that's worth doing?

Well, there was that one CWar samurai who was fairly okay at what he does... but his one trick really isn't all that universally applicable, and is easily shut down. But against those not immune to his trick, he was an okay lockdown build.

It wouldn't be really fun to play in a game, though. It's either 'I win' or 'I lose', with zero options between them, depending on if they are not immune, or are immune, to his one trick.

On the Great Monk Debate, I fail to see why anyone would willingly play Monk over Swordage (other than as a two-level dip onto something greater), considering Swordsage has both better mechanics AND better roleplay flavor...

I mean, when looking at Kung Fu movies, they nearly always used really cool weapons, which monks can't really do. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon had the Green Destiny Blade, for example. A monk would not only drop his damage dramatically when using it, but would also incur an additional -4 nonproficency penalty when trying to swing the dang thing. That's not Kung Fu, that's Suck.

[Veyr]

I don't recall contradicting this.


nor this

It was more a continuation to Swiftmongoose's original response to your post: sure, if someone specifically says "look, I know how terrible Monks are, and I know there are better options, but for whatever reason I want to play a Monk 20", it might be rude to completely ignore that and talk about another class, but how often does that happen? And when it does, how often do people "rudely" (a concept I am still dubious of) ignore that?

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, there was that one CWar samurai who was fairly okay at what he does... but his one trick really isn't all that universally applicable, and is easily shut down. But against those not immune to his trick, he was an okay lockdown build.

Emphasis on trick - that's what makes him Tier 5. He has one trick - intimidating people.

[Thurbane]

Uh, pretty frequently, actually.

I've seen it quite a few times myself.

I'm going to agree here - it does happen pretty frequently.

[Veyr]

Could someone link to several examples of this?

Yes, people say "I want to play a monk!" and people say "A Swordsage would be much better," but how often do people say "I know everything that's wrong with a Monk, but want to play one anyway" and people ignore that? Does anyone have an example? Or, ya know, several, since this is apparently "frequent"?

[MeeposFire]

Whether you think it occurs often or not it needs to be reaffirmed that the tier system does not condone that behavior nor is it at fault for that issue. All it does do is give people a convenient way of describing what a lot of people had been saying for years before its inception, that all classes were not equal, and this gives a convenient way of describing the various issues for each class.

[Coidzor]

It usually seems to be a brief interlude that passes quickly after clarification is provided if clarification wasn't provided in the first place and really only derails the thread if people decide to make an argument out of it in the thread.

[MeeposFire]

Could someone link to several examples of this?

Yes, people say "I want to play a monk!" and people say "A Swordsage would be much better," but how often do people say "I know everything that's wrong with a Monk, but want to play one anyway" and people ignore that? Does anyone have an example? Or, ya know, several, since this is apparently "frequent"?

considering how many monk threads there are and how painful they are to read generally I don't think we really want to subject people to that. Besides it is not really that important the issue of people trying to force their class choices on others is a personal issue and not an issue with the tier system despite what people might think.

[Thurbane]

Whether you think it occurs often or not it needs to be reaffirmed that the tier system does not condone that behavior nor is it at fault for that issue. All it does do is give people a convenient way of describing what a lot of people had been saying for years before its inception, that all classes were not equal, and this gives a convenient way of describing the various issues for each class.

...and hence my multiple assertions that I only have a problem with the system when people misuse it.

Guns don't kill people and all that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Emphasis on trick - that's what makes him Tier 5. He has one trick - intimidating people.

Precisely. He's a one-trick pony. That's really the quintessential definition of the tier classes, and WHY the CW Samurai is a T6 class...

Even with ultimate optimization techniques, the paragon and highest the class can go is... a one-trick pony.

Consider that a Fighter can do even better with an ACF at level 9, and also be able to actually do damage in combat. That's why the Fighter is Tier 5 and the CW Samurai is Tier 6. Because the Fighter has more and more flexible options, and can do the same thing, with fewer resources.

Compare that with the Tier 4 Dread Necromancer, who basically (with a single spell he can get from his class ability) does the same thing, without using an action (fear aura + Aura of Dread spell + Fell Frighten to make all opponents within 30' Panicked), and is ALSO has very interesting class abilities, with a whole horde of undead minions (or a few, really NASTY ones), AND is able to cast 9th level spells.

The CW Samurai requires maximum optimization to do the same thing that a Fighter can get with an ACF to do the same thing the Dread Necromancer does for breathing (or not breathing, as the case might be).

That's why someone came up with the Tier Lists.

[TroubleBrewing]

It usually seems to be a brief interlude that passes quickly after clarification is provided if clarification wasn't provided in the first place and really only derails the thread if people decide to make an argument out of it in the thread.

This. Coidzor has the right of it.

Veyr: I know it happens, I've done it myself. I don't do it out of spite, I do it because it is genuinely good advice. People throw the "I play to have fun" card in my face, and I usually play the "yes, but now you can have fun and be useful" card.

[MeeposFire]

...and hence my multiple assertions that I only have a problem with the system when people misuse it.

Guns don't kill people and all that.

Well you may not blame it but others do mostly since they don't understand what the tier system is all about.

[Yuki Akuma]

Samurai is Tier 6?

Oh wow, and I only looked at the list ten minutes before I posted that, too...

[Hiro Protagonest]

This. Coidzor has the right of it.

Veyr: I know it happens, I've done it myself. I don't do it out of spite, I do it because it is genuinely good advice. People throw the "I play to have fun" card in my face, and I usually play the "yes, but now you can have fun and be useful" card.

Oh yeah, ToB is fun. Take fighter and warblade: is it more fun to say "I use X maneuver, and I can do Y because I'm in Z stance", or say "I trip/hit/bull rush it again"?

@Yuki: OA samurai is tier 5, CW samurai is tier 6.

[Eldariel]

Precisely. He's a one-trick pony. That's really the quintessential definition of the tier classes, and WHY the CW Samurai is a T6 class...

Even with ultimate optimization techniques, the paragon and highest the class can go is... a one-trick pony.

Consider that a Fighter can do even better with an ACF at level 9, and also be able to actually do damage in combat. That's why the Fighter is Tier 5 and the CW Samurai is Tier 6. Because the Fighter has more and more flexible options, and can do the same thing, with fewer resources.

Compare that with the Tier 4 Dread Necromancer, who basically (with a single spell he can get from his class ability) does the same thing, without using an action (fear aura + Aura of Dread spell + Fell Frighten to make all opponents within 30' Panicked), and is ALSO has very interesting class abilities, with a whole horde of undead minions (or a few, really NASTY ones), AND is able to cast 9th level spells.

The CW Samurai requires maximum optimization to do the same thing that a Fighter can get with an ACF to do the same thing the Dread Necromancer does for breathing (or not breathing, as the case might be).

That's why someone came up with the Tier Lists.

Fine post. But Dread Necro is most assuredly Tier 3. Basically any full caster is (ok, Warmage and Healer aren't but they're less of full casters and more of "I have 9 levels worth of X that have scaling numbers.")

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Fine post. But Dread Necro is most assuredly Tier 3. Basically any full caster is (ok, Warmage and Healer aren't but they're less of full casters and more of "I have 9 levels worth of X that have scaling numbers.")

Dread Necro is generally seen as Tier 4 (for the same reason that Warmage is) rather than Tier 3, but I personally agree with you that they should be seen as Tier 3.