Final Fantasy Advent Children IV - Centuries of Sin - Game Underway!

[Qwaz]

EDIT - Actually just thinking peop0le might actually do that and I dont want to play being dead. ask after the game what i said.

[Murska]

Heh. I've had so many times during my... ill-timed absence from the world of the living that I'd have wanted to give advice to people.

However, I'm watching this stand-off with great interest.

[Rogue Nine]

Whomever Yazoo is he was good enough to include all four of the people Ramsus suspected. Clever. Everybody is suspicious.

But I have to go with my gut, and that's telling my Gray Mage. I don't buy your reasons for not voting- you were too busy, but had the time to post in other threads?

The biggest reason though is why am I still alive? I lead the lynch on Sephiroth yesterday; that should have sealed my fate, yet it did not. My thinking is that you know from narrating Witchhunt 4 that I would obsess over this point, not wanting to fail.

The final reason is I don't trust Bill. He lied about Murska, and had no reason for being on either side. Which is great on one hand that the neutrals were played so... neutral. I applaud that. (On the other hand of course- y u no be good guys?!? *shakes fist with impotent rage*)

[Ramsus]

Heh. I've had so many times during my... ill-timed absence from the world of the living that I'd have wanted to give advice to people.

However, I'm watching this stand-off with great interest.

Where you feel interest I feel frustration at not being able to point out stuff. Though I'm sure we've all been in that situation before (though I think this is the worst one yet on the frustration scale for me).

[Gray Mage]

Where you feel interest I feel frustration at not being able to point out stuff. Though I'm sure we've all been in that situation before (though I think this is the worst one yet on the frustration scale for me).

Worse than in bootleggers?

[Ramsus]

Worse than in bootleggers?

*thinks* Perhaps not all that much worse.

[banjo1985]

Okay guys, for better or worse you've made your choice. Update to follow later today.

Hold onto your butts people, gonna be a bumpy ride!

[banjo1985]

Gray Mage stared up at the iridescent green Marlboro as the creature writhed amongst the ghost town that had once been the Spirans camp. The Remnants comet pulsed high above, a winking red eye to witness the final encounter. He wondered what would happen when Spira burned.

Either way, he was glad he would not be alive to see it.

“So this is it, you’re really going to do this?”

RogueNine and ThePhantom nodded and said nothing. Neither was sure, nowhere near, butit was all they could think of to do. Gray Mage smiled sadly and turned back to the creature.

“Very well. I hope the Remnants at least end your lives quickly.”

Gray Mage strides to his death with his head held high, lightning sparking overhead and the comet pulsing in the heavens like an emergency warning light. In a way it kind of is. The energy-Marlboro surges forward to meet its foe, and Gray Mage is engulfed.

Behind RogueNine and ThePhantom, Yazoo starts to laugh.

They turn, horribly aware of the fatal mistake they have just made. Up above the comet pulses it’s crimson warning. Too late, too late….

Yazoo levels an arm at the two, eyes rolling back in his head and his other hand pressed hard to his ear. The final Remnant, filled with power as he is, looks scant inches from death himself.

“Still too much noise! Will this planet never be silent?! Shut up!”

Green fire arcs from the Remnants fingertips and envelopes the last two survivors of the Besaid massacre, blackening skin and melting bone. The two bodies’ slump forward onto the sand, the whitish jelly of their eyes running down their cheeks like tears for the doomed planet they once called their own.

Yazoo barely seems aware of any of it. The tortured Remnant clamps both hands over his ears and screams as blood gushes between his fingers in a torrent.

“So loud! Mother! Mother?! I can’t hear you Mother! Please! This planet is too loud! Please let me here you Mother…”

Yazoo calls, and finally…oh so finally, Jenova answers.

The comet above shivers, then begins to break up, with a sound loud enough to end the world. Flaming slabs of rock the size of an island fall away and plummet towards Spira’s surface, promising ruin for anything they hit. Bevelle, Luca, even ruined Zanarkand…everywhere will burn. The planet’s atmosphere robs them of a little mass, but it’s nowhere near enough. Inexorably, the renegade chunks of comet block out the sun as they fall in a meteor shower of madness and death.

Far above, a faint green twist of energy writhes and pulses in the darkened sky, seemingly unaware of the chaos it has wrought. Jenova, racked with the pain of an unnatural unending existence, shrieks at the dying planet beneath her. Propelled by the force of her scream, the meteors accelerate and fragment, bathing the whole of Spira in flames.

In the middle of it all, amongst the ruins of a once proud seaside town, Yazoo stares up at the flame-filled sky, arms hanging at his sides. Blood pours from his ears, his eyes, his nose, his mouth, and the evil green flames write and dance all around him, licking at his skin and consuming his very essence.

Still the Remnant smiles.

“I hear you Mother! I finally hear you!”



Summary

Gray Mage was killed by the Marlboro. He was a Spiran Civilian!

Yazoo survived the day phase and would equal the number of remaining Spirans the following night, with no bane actions or items to stop him.

Dragoon was Yazoo. He kills RogueNine and ThePhantom and watches Spira burn. Finally he can hear Mother calling!

The Remnants have won yet again, and a complete victory at that! Congratulations Dragoon!

The Al-Bhed escaped Spira in time, and scored a victory of their own.

Thanks to everyone for playing and sticking with what turned out to be a very long game indeed!

Player Rolecall

Aemoh – Kadaj
Billtodamax – Brother
Bladescape – Spiran
Deathslayer7 – Spiran
Diva De – Rikku
Dragoon – Yazoo
Fan – Spiran
Fin - Spiran
Fleeing Coward – Spiran
Gray Mage – Spiran
Helgraf – Kuja
I’m da Rogue – Besaid Auroch
Internet Flea – Spiran
Istari – Jecht
Khal – Spiran
Lamech – Yuna
Lex-Kat – Spiran
Mangosta71 – Sephiroth
Mordokai – Wakka
Murska – Loz
Mustiado – Spiran
Otakuryoga – Spiran
Qwaz – Besaid Auroch
Ramsus – Tidus
Reinholdt – Spiran
RogueNine – Spiran
Sage Montalius – Spiran
Tasroth – Besaid Auroch
The Fiery Tower – Besaid Auroch
The Grimmace – Spiran
TheLaughingMan – Spiran
ThePhantom – Spiran
ThirdEmperor – Spiran
Thufir – Lulu
TigerFang – Auron
Tilt – Kimahri
TsukikoJ – Spiran
V.Z. - Cid

Let the inquest commence!

I’ll put forward some of my views on the game, but I know there are a lot of people itching to say a few things and I want to hear them, as the most important views are from the people who’ve played. Again, as always with Advent Children, there were some balance issues that came to the fore, so feel free to rip into those. I guess that if we hadn’t had 8 autolynches to help the Remnants, we’d be looking at the first villager victory right now.

[banjo1985]

A few comments from a narrator perspective:

- 8 autolynches…seriously? Seven villagers and an Al-Bhed going down without a fight essentially bought the proportion of Remnants down from roughly 1:8 to 1:6, too close for wolves as individually powerful as the Remnants.

- The Al-Bhed played a canny game, getting in contact with both the Remnants and Aurochs quickly following Mordokai’s brave sacrificing ploy. They managed to keep both sides happy long enough to do their repairs and escape, which was no mean feat. They constantly fed the village a truthful stream of Cid scans, except for Murska being a Remnant, allowing him access to the villager network for most of the game and giving the Remnants the upper hand.

- I don’t know how much my ten-day absence affected the game, but I’m sure it did in some way. Apologies to all for that, I know a few people were more than a little displeased about it. I think most of the narrations other than that dodgy day were roughly on time though.

- The most powerful items that entered the game ended up being wasted. V.Z. started with the Sending Staff, so the Al-Bhed could use it as a bargaining tool with whichever side they wanted to speak to, but it was never used. After Kuja died it was discarded. A Murasame also entered play through Billtodamax’s item crafting, but got transferred to a mason on the night they died, so again it had no effect. Monster Whistle’s were the only items to really affect the game, and the Hypello potion Murska picked up against his early encounter. I think items were fairly balanced though, and getting them from defeating monsters actually gave both sides a reason to want to win the occasional encounter. Definitely an improvement on ACIII’s system.

- One big balance issue was the combination of Jecht and Cid’s scanning abilities, which essentially gave the village a back up scrier. It wasn’t the intention of the roles, but that’s how it ended up, and a if Istari has survived a few more days the Remnants could have been in serious trouble.

- There was also the odd situation where the Remnants ended up working out who Kuja was, but didn’t want to waste a scry on getting into contact with him, as it looked like Helgraf’s lynch was inevitable. Not how I wanted it to work, and Kuja in general didn’t work out how I wanted, so apologies to Helgraf for giving him what ended up being a duff role.

- By the time Marlboro’s started to turn up, everyone who could defeat them was already dead, meaning that the last day went down to a straight vote rather than someone being able to defeat an encounter, which I think was apt.

- TigerFang did a good job as Auron, baning both himself and Qwaz effectively for the first ten days. It was unfortunate that the day he was targeted was the day he decided to swap back to protecting the Auroch.

- As for narrations, I had a few problems with ideas. I think I’m running out of nasty things for the Remnants to say and do, but I hope they weren’t too bad.

- Will there be and ACV? I guess that depends on if people want it. I’ll admit that I’ve now gone through all the Final Fantasy’s that I know well, and the way I ended this one there’s definitely a chance to say this is it, and end it there. I’ve got ideas of a Lost Odyssey, Grandia, or Tales of Vesperia themed game that could carry on the rules system, but I’m really not sure about it. This game was a bit of a stretch to run at times I have to admit.

Obligatory survey will follow at some point, once we're done with the post-game inquest.

[TigerFang]

- TigerFang did a good job as Auron, baning both himself and Qwaz effectively for the first ten days. It was unfortunate that the day he was targeted was the day he decided to swap back to protecting the Auroch.

Unfortunate? How about that backstabbing Murska!!! That was when the game started going bad for the Spirans... man I hate myself It almost feels like it's all my fault... Though I'm not that arrogant to say it was all my fault.

And the Remnants crazy luck on monsters helped them a lot as well...

[Murska]

Unfortunate? How about that backstabbing Murska!!! That was when the game started going bad for the Spirans... man I hate myself It almost feels like it's all my fault... Though I'm not that arrogant to say it was all my fault.

And the Remnants crazy luck on monsters helped them a lot as well...

Mwahaha. I was wondering whether my comment about the Baner needing to protect the Mason worked.

I wouldn't say we were that lucky with encounters considering how many we could defeat. I mean, the Fool scrying me as a different Remnant from what I actually was seemed kind of lucky as well, the encounter just balanced it out.

Overall, I'd say that in a game where the wolves have four linked people and one that they don't know, two villager beasts is a very big threat even knowing that there are ways to avoid being killed by the effect. For example, sacrificing Kadaj for Mordokai was one tough decision we had to make.

I'm, of course, hoping that one day we'll have another AC or other game with the theme - perhaps the Remnants would deserve their rest by now?

[Fan]

I told you Murska was better off dead, but did anyone listen to me? Nooooo. Don't lynch the master strategist that has a 75% chance of playing every side at once.

[Tasroth]

Well, we may have lost, but I have two things to say. Firstly, this post

Argh. Well on the plus side I'm pretty sure I'm going to survive in this game. On the other hand that really diminishes our chances of winning.

Also, I'd forgotten I could even beat Iron Giants. >_<

So my thoughts on Remnants:
Mangosta = Sephiroth
Yazoo is probably not Mustadio, TsukikoJ, Fin, or Khal.
Dragoon is the highest up on the suspect list. I'm not sure about Gray Mage, the Phantom,or Rogue Nine.

Does show that we had it figured. Ramsus did say Dragoon was the network's top suspect for Yazoo. And since I remember me and V.Z. suggesting Dragoon as the next lynch target to the rest of the network the night I died, I think I can feel involved in that thinking.

Secondly, this may be the most fun I've had playing a werewolf game. There was a point, just after Qwaz died. I'd just invited the Al Bhed fully into the network and V.Z. had just told me that Murska was actually Loz. So, I was trying to pretend I still trusted Murska, noting his slip up with defeatable encounters, and therefore claiming to the rest of the Cid-approved group that we thought he was probably Sephiroth (when I knew he wasn't, though he was a remnant), and aware that it was possible that one of Gray Mage or mangosta (the others in the Cid-approved group who weren't Lamech) could ACTUALLy be Sephiroth and tell Murska we were suspicious... and I found myself thinking "Sorry? Why... I don't think I've had this much fun."

Congratulations to the Al Bhed on their victory, congratulations to the Remnants (because I can appreciate a well played game on their part), and thank you to the assorted network members, even if we did lose in the end. It was fun guys.

[Murska]

Oh, yeah. My slip-up was just an ordinary slip-up, yes. Not a part of a scheme or anything. I somehow thought all along that I had beaten an Ochu and not a Zuu. Dunno why.

As I said to Lamech earlier in a PM about the day where me and Ramsus butted heads in a heated debate... (which was really fun, by the way, though I was slightly miffed that Banjo didn't end the day when Ramsus was in the lead and forced me to let out more information, however mixed with lies, to win the lynch again. The only thing that could've made that day better would've been if Ramsus would have died to the Iron Giant - hilarity much?)

...as I was saying, I mentioned that while Ramsus had the better logic, of course since he was telling the truth and I was improvizing a bunch of lies after the completely behind a tree claim that I was Loz, I think what made the difference and allowed us enough uncertainty to win that day (despite the results) as well as sow enough doubt to let us win the game in the end was simply a matter of presentation. I managed to ignore all the logical arguments that Ramsus levelled at me, picking apart only the less well thought-out ones and he didn't keep his cool enough to calmly and rationally destroy my rethoric. That was one of the highpoints of this game.

Also, my thanks to the Neutrals who were delightfully neutral but still dependable in a pinch (to act Neutral) and overall a nice group to chat with. Even though they betrayed me.

[TsukikoJ]

Quicktopics please!

[Qwaz]

The Al-bhed slipping murska in didn't hurt us much. I kept the cid-scrys separarte from power-roles incase A) Sephiroth, b) Cid wasn't really cid, c)cid wasn't trust worthy.

Only shared certain info with them and it seemed to go ok. From the moment Helgraf let slip He;d been jecht scried we had our eyes onto murska but it didn't come to anything quickly.

I am gutted about the baner death....see the QT

The Jecht and cid scrys may be imbalanced but we still lost. Maybe if we'd had Thufir (lulu) for longer we'd have been better off.

Power role QT
Cid approved QT
Al Bhed contact QT

Good game and I will get you next time remnants! Thank you Banjo for all the hard work!

EDIT - Oh. And what i redacted immediatly after i typed it was this...

Spoiler

Show

A true pro-town move would be to vote No-Lynch then Yazoo would kill someone that night and you'ld be picking the following day from 2 other people instead of 3.

Of course Yazoo might just not night kill anyone and then there emerges a mexican standoff where the town can at least claim a draw

[Dragoon]

Here is the link to the remnants, http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/nqw8dUsd53bfG.


I am not sure what to think, since we did win, but we got lucky with Murska being scried by the fool as the wrong remnant, especially when Aemoh died to Mordokai's bane.

Also, thanks to mangosta71, Murska, and Aemoh, as I didn't do much with my limited time. Also thank Ramsus for that post on who was trustworthy or not as that made my last night kill much easier.

Though I was really surprised that Murska lasted as long as he did after the slip-up.

[Istari]

Had really fun with this game. Not much to comment, but I was surprised that you didn't think of me (Jecht) doing that with the scries, since I really couldn't think of a good use for them other than as a psudeo scry.

[Ramsus]

Well...I have a decent amount to say. First of all it seemed like after Qwaz surviving that nightkill almost everything that could go wrong for town did. And heck, even before that we lost our seer early.

Encounter system + items: This system favors only the wolves. It is interesting though. The problem is that town isn't ever inclined to lynch people they know won't die. That just gives the Remnants another kill. Even when that townsperson defeats an encounter what do we get? Most likely another item to defeat an encounter. Great. We can't/don't want to use that. Those are completely useless to town as they don't outweigh just trying to kill a Remnant. Even the more useful items aren't worth the risk. We might possibly get something that isn't as good as lynching a Remnant? Yeah. Pass. So the item system just ended up making the Remnants (Sephiroth especially) being hard to kill problem even worse.

Even without the items Sephiroth being a cloaked alpha that can defeat more than half the encounters is ridiculous. I'm amazed we managed to kill him at all.

I don't think there's much of a problem with Jecht + Cid forming a second seer. The Remnants have the ability to change people's killable encounters so discrepancies can already occur that way. It also requires Cid to be trustworthy.

Earlier I believe Helgraf pointed out it's in town's favor that the Al Bhed have a town siding victory optional condition. I think the results of this game sorta disprove that. It simply isn't a big enough carrot to ensure they'll side with town. It just gives them any reason at all to consider doing so.

Voiding + Beast powers: Yeah, that just plain sucked. I don't believe there's any reason for it to function in a way that makes voiding a beast practically useless for town and completely negates the point of a power role for the wolves. The fact that the Beast hit Yuna....yeah, I still don't even know how to respond to that. It did pretty much take our hard earned finally ahead of the wolves state and dump us into having a very slim chance of winning. When it happened I more or less stopped being interested. Our team did a good job, put a lot of analysis and thought into things and to have random chance rob us of our the fruits of our efforts (yet again) just ruined the fun for me.

As for Murska's statement about two beasts on town side being unfair...well I disagree. Tidus is only a beast if you kill him via nightkill (and there are a total of four ways to kill him) and Wakka is only optionally a beast.

Murska v Me: I agree, that was a boatload of fun (quite possibly because of how long it went on). Murska totally would have won given a proper day ending and I clearly still have much to learn from him. I could beat Iron Giants though I believe so I wouldn't have died even if I got lynched (though at the start I hadn't remembered that).

What amazes me though is that Dragoon could employ the exact same tactic and use it to win the game.

@Dragoon: I knew those people would end up dying once I listed them but, it was my hopes the remaining townspeople would talk things over with them privately before they died as each of them knew things that if the remainder of town had paid attention to would have given us the victory.

Oh, and for the record I never trusted Murska one bit. I believe I wanted to lynch him as soon as Qwaz mentioned Murska had contacted him.

[Murska]

http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/HkYf5i3xYeYR

Here's one more QT for you folks.

Also, V.Z.! How could you? Weren't we supposed to be Best Murdering White-Haired Psychopath Buddies Forever?

EDIT: @^ I think we can say that the Remnants lynching Tidus/Yuna is rather difficult for them. Overall, using the lynch as a weapon for the wolf team is very risky and doesn't have high chances of working, in my experience. And since we can't know which of T/Y is T, it's basically a 50% shot for us on the nightkill. The beast thing was pure luck though. Who used that monster whistle? And as I believe I at least thought, if not mentioned, pre-game when Banjo posted the rules in Central, I don't see any reason for Wakka to not take the Beast. Mordy used that role in the most effective possible way, pretty perfect game for him in my opinion - we were forced to kill him and we knew he would be a Beast. Taking that hit was very painful.

EDIT2: And about the neutrals. I think they were done well - of course Neutrals aren't supposed to outright side with either team, but they were very much pushed into the Town's arms this game if we think about purely the rules.

One: Their extra win condition means they want the Lynchpin to survive.

Two: If Brother dies for any reason, they're forced to join the Town. (Big one here!)

Three: Their special abilities generally benefit the Town more. (Cid scry especially, but also the Automatons.)

Four: The Remnants are psychotic madmen out to destroy the entire planet. What fluff reason would allow the Al Bhed to join forces with them?

[TsukikoJ]

My favorite quote on the Quicktopic reads so far is from the Network's QT by Lamech:

"P.S. Whenever I've trusted Murska in the past it has worked out great!"


Ahahahhaahhahahahahahahahaha.

[Murska]

I really have to work on my analysis of the game state and psychology of the opposing team, however. It seems that I'm wrong half the time about how much exactly the OPFOR knows and especially their internal mood and mindset. Usually I overestimate them, but for instance in this game I even underestimated the Town Network at one point. Mainly because I didn't think VZ would give them that much more information than we were given.

However, where I was completely off the target was the mood part - I was certain that about when Helgraf was taken out, there would be a large town network (true) who would be rather positive about their chances of winning (true-ish) and so I wanted to begin quickly taking out some of their roles both to make the network smaller and try to drive some spikes into their confidence. However, that seemed, according to the QTs, succeed way better than I imagined. I thought that when Ramsus came out with my identity the Town would be utterly certain of their victory, which seemed almost impossible to stop to myself as well, especially since I was fully aware that Mangosta was pretty much outed as Seph at that point. I even believed that Dragoon would surely die the last day.

However, the Lamech hit was really, really bad on the Town morale it seems. I just thought they'd take it as a setback - not good for them, sure, but they were so close to victory and at least got the Beast without any encounters killed, plus knew the most important Wolf role and could take him out before the extra kill did much damage. It looks like the quick casualty rate we had inflicted on the Network took its toll here.

[V.Z.]

Also, V.Z.! How could you? Weren't we supposed to be Best Murdering White-Haired Psychopath Buddies Forever?

Sowwy... Bill crafted a Murasame. I got a tad ambitious and saw it as a chance to write history by making this the first ever AC with a town victory. The rest is history. Guess it didn't pay off as well as I had hoped. Heh, with AC III and IV in mind I'm not exactly painting a picture of me as a trustworthy neutral ally, am I?

Any chance we go back to being BMWHPBF's? We still have so many worlds to cover in flame and so many people to torment and slaughter, all in style of course! We did make a great pair, didn't we? Maybe can I make it up to you with some of these delicious tormented-soul-infused cookie with blood-of-the-innocent filling? Or is it so serious we should go see a... psychotherapist Yeeeaaah! (I am sorry... )


My own thoughts on the game coming once, and if, I get them in order.

[Murska]

Well I'm never going to say no to somebody requesting to be my BMWHPBF. All is forgiven.


...or is it? Guess you'll see next time.

[Rogue Nine]

Sorry GM and everyone... your excuses, while valid, were just too convenient, and I didn't have enough time to come up with a better idea when the day ended.

[Gray Mage]

Why doesn't anyone believe me in these situations? >.>

[billtodamax]

I had so much fun in this game.

For the record - I thought it was better siding with wolves than town, but V.Z. seemed to care who won more than I did. Mainly the reason I didn't want to side with town was Ramsus's unwarranted aggression - especially outing us as his source on that day.

Granted, it only seems unwarranted from my perspective.

[ThePhantom]

My thoughts, the fact that the lynch can be defeated, and more easily by the wolves makes the game favor them, by a large amount. It allows them to practically get two kills each day and night.

Also, I'm sorry, I thought dragoon might be the last one, but I wasn't sure.

[Ramsus]

I had so much fun in this game.

For the record - I thought it was better siding with wolves than town, but V.Z. seemed to care who won more than I did. Mainly the reason I didn't want to side with town was Ramsus's unwarranted aggression - especially outing us as his source on that day.

Granted, it only seems unwarranted from my perspective.

What? That doesn't make any sense. You didn't want to side with us because of my aggressiveness that was a response to you lying to us for half the game which put us closer to losing and in the end indeed did result in us losing? What reason would I have to protect you guys after you betrayed our trust that way? Being neutral doesn't mean you're immune to the consequences of your own actions.

And for the record....you didn't side with us. You didn't do anything to help us after telling us about Murska and even went out of the way to confuse the issue when I brought it up publicly. When you were going to leave VZ offered some analysis and ideas which didn't really result in us knowing or believing anything we already didn't (it was nice that he made the effort though).

Edit: And before Murska claimed my role I didn't know you guys actually were the Al Bhed. If Murska had turned out to not be a Remnant it would have meant you guys were. There wasn't any reason for me to not out you guys. It was information town needed and you guys had made it clear you weren't siding with us, just yourselves. I can't think of any reason why I would have put in any effort to protect you, especially when doing so would have been damaging for town.

[billtodamax]

I dunno, you just always seemed aggressively untrusting - even when you didn't know we were lying. Also - we did try and side with you. We gave TFT Murasame, and reported all of our scries accurately (eventually). We gave you all the help we could without being killed by the remnants. Confusing the idea when you brought it up publicly is because it was in public, where the Remnants could see, and have a reason to murder us.

I see I've offended you, however, and I apologise for that.