Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[LeSwordfish]

Thanks for the help. I'll take your advice on moving the plasma pistol/powersword to a squad commander, and swapping the lord-commissar's carapace for camo-cloaks. The stormtroopers ARE suicide deep-strike, aimed at whatever's causing me trouble that turn. The obvious Mission to give them is Airborne Assault, but the one that grants Pinning might be useful if there's a horde army, rather than a tank needing popping.

The only clarification i need to make is about the sniper rifles. You say three isn't enough- i have TWO squads with snipers and missiles, and TWO squads with lascannons and snipers. Would five do? The theory is that i can either chance at pinning a squad or killing a tank.

[Timberwolf]

The only clarification i need to make is about the sniper rifles. You say three isn't enough- i have TWO squads with snipers and missiles, and TWO squads with lascannons and snipers. Would five do? The theory is that i can either chance at pinning a squad or killing a tank.

To give you a guide, I routinely run 20 Space marine scouts. 16 have sniper rifles. If I get 1 pin off a game, I consider that a very good day. Of course, MEQ, Green tide Orks, Nid players who know what they're doing and Eldar were my local meta (I've just moved so can't comment on here, but will be astonished if it's much different). That many snipers, backed by the missiles, is a realistic threat to AV12 and under vehicles but, well, to do anything on that front, I have to beat a lot of odds. With my scouts, I have a 50% chance to hit, a 1 in 6 chance to advance to the next step with a rend and against AV 12, 1/3 chance of glancing, against AV11, a 2/3 chance of doing something to it.

I got a friend to work this out once and, while I can't remember the exact chances, lets just say, they weren't great. If you're going to play those odds, you need massed fire, the kind of massed fire that 5 rifles will not provide.

[Cheesegear]

To give you a guide, I routinely run 20 Space marine scouts. 16 have sniper rifles. If I get 1 pin off a game, I consider that a very good day.

I have 54 Sniper Rifles. And I still think that sometimes it isn't enough.

[Timberwolf]

One of these days, I'll try that out. I got a scout army off the Bay of E so the potential is there.

[Craftworld]

So i have a 1500 point Imperial Guard army, and i'd welcome any comments or criticisms. It isn't nearly optimised enough, though it isn't for tournaments, just casual play.

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HQ
Company Command Squad- Bolter, Vox, Sniper rifle.
I don't really understand the Bolter...I know that the strength, ap, and range are better but still it is two points which makes it a bit harder to make the most use of your points...here I mean getting to 1500 exactly...although, you may have done that.


Lord-Commisar- Carapace armour, Powersword, Plasma Pistol

Please take the Plasma pistol away, its a little bomb for your commissar to help the enemy get a kill point. Also the Camo Cloak thing.
ELITES
Stormtrooper squadron- Flamer, Melta
Why the combo? If you have more horde in your meta, flamer, more tanks, melta, the combo is a little bit of indecision.

TROOPS
Platoon 1
Platoon Command squad- Vox, Plasma gun, Autocannon, Bolter
Again, the Bolter thing...and the Plasma gun...um...without a reliable armor save (like what you can get with Comp. Command Squads) the carrier is more likely to die...so maybe a Grenade Launcher for one third the cost?
2x Infantry Squads- Vox, Sniper Rifle, Lascannon
I never get pinning reliably (although probably no one does...) so I rarely take Sniper Rifles outside of "I don't care if I lose, this list is fun" lists. Lascannon can't go wrong.
2x Infantry Squads- Vox, Sniper Rifle, Missile Launcher

Platoon 2
Platoon Command squad- Plasma pistol, Powersword, Heavy flamer, 2x Melta, Vox
Plasma Pistol...please no, you already know the reason. Powersword, not bad but not the best. Take off the Heavy Flamer, take off the meltas, and give the squad three flamers instead. Its a lot cheaper and it will outdo that Heavy Flamer easily. To get more meltas, maybe a Special Weapons Squad?
2x Infantry Squads- Vox, Flamers.
Save yourself five points, take off one of the Voxes and combine the squads, the vox will still work on the entire squad and only if someone pulls a mindwar or you remove the guy as a casualty...please don't...then he'll be fine.

FAST ATTACK
Vendetta Gunship
for so many reasons, yes.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Leman Russ Laser Destroyer (Bog-standard Leman Russ, but has a str10 ap1 hull-mounted gun and no turret)

Leman Russ Vanquisher- Lascannon, Multi-meltas.
If you can't have a Battle Tank, take off the Multi Meltas and you'll be good, but a Battle Tank would be best.

Griffon Heavy Mortar
I like this tank personally, its cheap, and has a rerollable Barrage weapon.

I know that I'm late to the party(I had school to deal with) to do this but here is my crack at help. (may not be needed as Rogue Paladin knows what he is doing and does it well.)

[Renegade Paladin]

The Griffon isn't actually rerollable; its shells just have Descent of Angels.

[Hootman]

Alright, y'all. I've figured out what my list may end up as for 'Ard Boyz in...just a week and a half now. Oh dear.

So, basically, I need to finish this up quickly so I can finish building everything. What I would like from you fine people is critique; what would you do differently? What obvious (or even non-obvious) counters to various units or playstyles should I be wary or aware of? Considering the scenarios, do you think that I have a realistic chance of winning?

ORKS, 2500 POINTS, 'ARD BOYZ SEMI-FINALS

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HQ
Thraka, 225pts

Big Mek, 115pts
Powerklaw & Shoota, Kustom Force Field, 'Eavy Armor


ELITES
Kommandos 10, 215pts
-2 Burnas
-Boss Snikrot

Lootas 8, 120pts


TROOPS
Nobs on Warbikes 9, 530pts (very carefully)

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1. PK
2. PK, Cybork
3. BC
4. BC, Cybork
5. Waaagh! Banner
6. Kombi-Skorcha
7. Cybork
8. X
9. Painboy

Boyz 18, 143pts
-Sluggas & Choppas
-Nob with Powerklaw

Boyz 18, 143pts
-Sluggas & Choppas
-Nob with Powerklaw

Boyz 20, 170pts
-Shootas, 2 Big Shootas
-Nob with Powerklaw, Bosspole

Boyz 20, 170pts
-Shootas, 2 Big Shootas
-Nob with Powerklaw, Bosspole

Boys 29, 209pts
-Sluggas & Choppas
-Nob with Powerklaw

FAST ATTACK
Deffkoptas 2, 115pts
-Twin-Linked Rokkit Launchas, 1 Buzzsaw

HEAVY SUPPORT
Battlewagon, 145pts
-Deff Rolla, Red Paint Job, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Boarding Plank, 2 Big Shootas

Battlewagon, 140pts
-Deff Rolla, Red Paint Job, Armor Plates, Boarding Plank, 2 Big Shootas

Looted Wagon, 60pts
-Skorcha, Red Paint Job, Reinforced Ram

[Cheesegear]

My marine playing friends eventually told me they wouldn't play me anymore if I kept using Dark Reapers.

Really!? Like I said, Dark Reapers aren't even that good.

Killing Reapers is easy. In the last battle, I found that using Mordin with Incinerate, and Miranda or Thane with Warp, I prefer Mirandaerrr...Wrong Game.

I'll go through a list of things Space Marines have that destroy Reapers fairly easily. This isn't even tailoring, since nearly all of these things are good against everything;

The tried and tested amazing-sauce of a Librarian in Drop Pod with Avenger. Upgrade to Epistolary, drop Null Zone and destroy surrounding Farseers and Warlocks with the rest of your army.

As has been mentioned, the Exarch is the one who does most of the work. Take him out with Telion.

Terminators - both kinds, actually - make Dark Reapers cry. Deep Strike either kind next to Reapers and they wont be happy.
Sternguard; AP3 ammo is for winners. Or not. And just use them as saves for your Librarian in the Drop Pod.

Any Dreadnought makes Reapers cry. Use Drop Pods. Whether shooting at or in Assault, Dreadnoughts make Reapers very, very sad. Then start singing "Can't touch this." My Ironclad rarely dies against Eldar.

One of my favourite images.

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Dreadnoughts go something like that against Eldar.

Use Shrike. Infiltrate an Assault Squad. Fleet in their face. Beat Eldar at their own game. lollerskates.

Devastators can ping Reapers right back. The Tempest Launcher only has 36" range, so the Devs can't be Pinned (easily), and just play rocket tag. You're in cover, they're in cover.

Use Kahn. Outflank anything good. Bike Command Squads. Amazing.

But, how do you really defeat Dark Reapers, without fail? Mech up, son. Transports makes Reapers sad. Most Eldar roll with S6-spam and the occasional Eldar Missile Launcher or Bright Lance. Which doesn't quite compare to Plasma, Melta and Lascannon spam in the slightest which is what most Marine-Mechs have to deal with.

[Renegade Paladin]

One of my favourite images.

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Dreadnoughts go something like that against Eldar.

Linky no worky.

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(Also this. May Imperial justice account in all balance. The Emperor protects.)

[Drasius]

My Little Marines: Friendship is Heresy?

[HalfTangible]

Linky no worky.

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(Also this. May Imperial justice account in all balance. The Emperor protects.)

Suffer not the parasprite to live.

Death to the traitor... I mean Griffon.

My Little Marines: Friendship is Heresy?

my little ponyhammer

[Cheesegear]

(Also this.

Apparently Miroku and Kagome (bottom left) are equal threats on par with ponies. Really? Am I supposed to hate InuYasha that much?

...Is it terrible, then, that I like both ponies and IY?

[Ogremindes]

Why does that assault marine have tactical markings?

[Cheesegear]

Why does that assault marine have tactical markings?

Because Blood Ravens are stupid. Seriously, Retribution happens because Diomedes doesn't listen at the end of Chaos Rising. Even though I totally killed Diomedes.

"Hey. Diomedes! The guy with the glowing red eyes and echo-y voice is EVUL!!!"
"Nuh uh. He said he isn't."

gg Diomedes. It's a shame I actually have to be you this time.

[Tarinaky]

"Hey. Diomedes! The guy with the glowing red eyes and echo-y voice is EVUL!!!"
"Nuh uh. He said he isn't."

In fairness, Librarians are like that. It's like spoiling milk, you start to corrupt physically long before you're actually a threat to yourself and others.

[Renegade Paladin]

Why does that assault marine have tactical markings?

I was going to ask the artist the same thing, but I couldn't be arsed to sign up on the board he put it up on to do it.

[HalfTangible]

Why does that assault marine have tactical markings?

Better question:

Who's arm is that? The one flying and gorey as if the marines cut it off of something?

[BoSheck]

Slow thread is slow! Here's a batrep for your reading pleasure.

Got an apocalypse report, this time. Played it back on my birthday in June, maybe not the pinnacle of competitive 40k, but we still get to play with our little plastic men.

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Set Up:

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We set up our citadel terrain in a valley formation, with several pieces of supported foam on the end of the board leading to a terraced hill with 3 large structures atop it--a sacred shrine. Our local T/O and the person who's been in the hobby the longest said he'd read that one of the battles for Armageddon was over a specific shrine, so we were going to be doing that one. Appropriately, we put our objectives nearer it, while the Ork player (an out of towner with more years play experience than our 3-man team combined) sprinkled his along the midfield. We abandoned the usual Armageddon deployment and used a pitched battle strategy instead. I wish my camera were functional, I'd post pictures, but basically there was fair terrain in either deployment zone with a road running the length of the game board (10 feetx4feet) to the shrine. Our IG player (RenegadePaladin) intentionally fielded under points to get us another Strategic Asset, which worked out well, he provided our team with a Defense Line and the Replacements Strategem for his Baneblade. I chose Flank March for my Army so that I could apply the wolf-driven pain where I need to. Our other Ally--the Black Templars--chose the Bastion Strategy, which granted us 6 AV14 bunkers. Hot sauce! He put a Vindicare assassin in one, and instructed us to fill the others with heavy weapons. For Strategems dem Orkz took some sort of smoke screen, a Mek repair shop (not the workshop), and something else.

Our Orkponnent was given first turn, as a matter of courtesy. He put Ghaz in a Skullhamma with an unholy amount of Meganobz and Grotsnik in the center of his deployment zone. It was flanked by Truks full of lootas on one side with a Battlewagon full of Nobz and 2-3 Battlewagons full of Nobz on the other side. Moving out to either side were 2 Stompa formations (one on either side) with something in the neighborhood of 1 Deff Dread and 6 Kans each They were also supported by Deffkoptas. A 100-120 sized Green Tide made up the bookends of the army, stretching from zone-to-zone. Every unit had a Painboy. In reserve he left a single battle formation of speed freeks with 2 Biker Squad and a Nob Bikerz squad with Zhadsnark Da Rippa and something else in Reserve, I think. 10,000 points of Orks is hard to fit on a 10x4 table, after all.

We deploy now: I stop the gaps between our bunkers with Lone Wolves while a huge Black Templar squad hides behind one. The Guard set up a string of heavy weapons and lascannons behind the Defense lines in our deployment zone, putting several heavy weapons teams in one bunker. As per instructed, I fill the bunkers with heavy weapon death, one closest to the leftmost Green Tide full of rockets, Tiewaz lead by Tyr, the central one, directly across from the Skullhamma full of the Sunwolve's multimeltas, and Hagalaz sets up in the one near that. I put Skullbones pack with the Terminator Armored rune priest across from the other Green Tide--
Murderous Hurricane will put them in their place. A few lone wolves break off to help the grey hunters packs, the CML terminator joining Tiewaz. Njal Sets up with the Sunwolves. The Baneblade and Manticore are deployed centrally behind our Fortress of Redemption (big fortress!) with some Sword Brethern, a rhino of more BTs and the Emperor's Champion safeguarding them. Guardsmen are sprinkled liberally throughout.

I keep a lot of my army in reserve, Logan joins his remaining Wolf Guard there, and the Wolf Priest (new model, yet to earn his name!) joins the Grey Hunters Skull Pack. (Sweet jesus wolf priest + 10 grey hunters +1 Wolf Guard is SO GOOD.) I keep the Fenrisian Wolves in reserve, as well as the Cavalry, Canis, Valkur, and Magni (who all join the Cavalry) Our Templar Ally keeps a LRC full of terminators with a Chaplain buddy in reserve, two squad of shooty terminators with tank Hunters in reserve, a drop pod and a Land Speeder in reserve. Most of the BT units have a Teleport Homer in their group. Our Guard ally kept a bunch of Chimeras with meltavets in reserve, also.

Turn 1

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Orkies go first, surges forward, nearly everything runs except the big guns. In Shooting they manage to rock the bunker with the guard heavy weapons teams, forcing them to spill out. Psycho Dakka Blasta from two Stompas results in them being mostly reduced to 1 missile and a sarge. Lone Wolf wolf pals catch absurd amount of bullets with their teeth (Defense line strategy is the win!) and I think I lost a Grey Hunter. The big shell from the Skullhamma went a little wide and claimed several BTs, however. The Deffkoptas charge the BT rhino near the Manticore and some guardsmen. The Rhino survives.

With turn passing to us, the Ork player reveals one of his assets. A billowing, impenetrable line of smoke hides most of his valuable units from our big guns, forcing our turn to be cut short. Njal's stormcaller ability rolls up a penalty for enemy BS and I grin, you win some, you lose some. With nothing else to shoot at, and his smoke line scattering short, everyone on the left half of the board unloads into a Stompa poking partially through the line knocking two structure points off the monster. The suicidal Deff Kopta meets its eventual end at the hands of a nearby command squad, also. The Green Tide on the right gets tagged with a murderous Hurricane from nearly maximum range. Guard fires on the Green tide as well, though in hindsight he should have unloaded on the Battlewagons full of Nobz cruising toward his front line.

Turn 2

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With such a wicked strategy denying us nearly an entire turn of shooting, the mobs of boyz, nobz, and kanz surge forward, The biggest guns are all within 24" of Njal--I hear BS1 is pretty good. One of our remaining bunkers gets shaken, no heavy losses this turn. Orks are able to get out and charge the Sunwolf Bunker and a single lone wolf (Vali), another group multicharging the guard line and Tiewaz's bunker and little else. Long story short: Sunwolf bunker dies to Ghaz 'n Co's HORDE of claw attacks. Vali succeeds 9 invulnerable saves, and the subsequent 11 armor saves, leaving something like 9 mega nobz, Ghaz and Grotsnik unshootable. Also one guardsman survives melee in the other combat, rolling Insane Heroism for his morale check (Thanks for the Reroll, baneblade!). The hurricane'd green tide surges forward, running, but unable to make it into assault, they suffer severe losses from the weather--we ignore the model specifics of taking dangerous tests, to save ourselves about 15 minutes over a few turns.


With things looking pretty rough, we begin our second turn. The right side of the board looks pretty effed at this point, so we decide to attempt to clean out our stronghold in the left and sweep outward, things look pretty grim right now. The Templars bring in the deep striking terminators to hunt some tanks, our Guard player rolls out his melta-vet formation. No good rolls for Njal's passive this turn, so he creates cover save for the vehicles around him as he leaves the Sunwolves to stand valiantly in front of the terrifying Warboss. Thunderwolves Flank March in front of the Green Tide; the Warrior Born intent on collecting an impressive number of Ork skulls. Fenrisian wolves crowd in behind them, ensuring Flank Marching Speed Freeks can't actually fit on the board. Tank Hunter assault cannons and concentrated missile hail bring an end to the nearby Stompa. Wolfbones backs up, laying another hurricane into the Tide advancing on them. The Sunwolves blow the main gun off the Skullhamma, also. Come the assault phase, it's decided to do-or-die. Iron Priest Sverrir and his Cyberwolves combined with the supporting Templar Dreadnought charge into the squad of Nobz engaged with the single guardsman. The Wolves lay a Nob low as does the Dreadnought, while the Warboss and Sverrir exchange blows--Sverrir splits his attacks, pouring some of the S10 hammer wounds into the squad, and powering 2 through on the Warboss to ID him. The Iron Priest's lack of an invulnerable save his is downfall, however--but the Nobz locked in with the the dread had only 1 klaw left now. The Thunderwolf Cavalry and assorted Wolf Lords begin the arduous task of sweeping up the Green Tide.

Turn 3

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Our Orkponnent throws the best of his weight against us now, with the Speed Freekz coming on en-masse, maybe one or two dieing to terrain as they advance onto the board. He does little shooting, hoping to bury us in combat resolution. He does fire some shots, however, shaking the far bunker and killing a few Grey Hunters--the unengaged Green Tide surges forward, Orks dieing left and right as the hurricane sweeps them up. Stormcaller saves our heavy tanks from several penetrating hits. Ghaz and his boys charge headlong into the Baneblade, the Sunwolves and a lonely Imperial Techpriest. Everything is wiped out, but I think a few wounds are put on some Meganobz. Valkur continues to tick the Warrior Born count up, totaling seven now, while the Green tide is stuck mostly fighting Fenrisian Wolves. Canis dies horribly to a Warboss's Klaw, as I'd put Magni in the wrong spot to pick that IC out. Their numbers are rapidly thinning thanks to No Retreat! The Grey hunters on the other side finally fall in combat as well. 5 Longfangs and a baneblade crumple before the mass of Klaw attacks. They consolidate into a nice straight line.

This is the pivotal turn for us, it's all or nothing. Chimeras full of melta roll in through the Baneblade wreckage, Skull pack and their Wolf Priest, Logan, Arjac, and 6 other Wolf Guard march to stand eye to eye with Ghazkul and his Meganobz. The Landraider full of terminators rolls on near the Dreadnought locked into combat with the Nobz while the drop pod and speeder come down to stand between the Thunderwolves and the Speed Freeks. The guard employ one of their assets, and another Baneblade rolls onto the table, and begins bombarding the bikes. Little else happens in the way of movement. Njal splits the earth beneath Ghaz and his boyz A warboss, 5 meganobz and 2 nobz back near the dreadnought combat all plummet off the board .Both the Nobz bite it, Ghaz stays, and 4/5 meganobz are swallowed by the earth. I hear mutterings of bringing Eldrad next time, to back up his green friends. The Black Templars hide out in their Rhino while Logan lets lose a battlecry to terrify even orks, granting all those nearby wolves more attacks; Skull pack uses their Wolf Standard. Everyone charges into the fray, the Grey Hunters alone taking 40 preferred enemy attacks, rerolling 1s on their to-wound rolls. Combined with the Wolf Priest and the non-fist wolf guard from Logan's squad (also preferred enemy) only 2 Nobs stand to hit back. Arjac, Logan and the other fists/hammers finish off Grotsnik and the remaining Nobz while Ghaz kills a few Wolf guard--he fails enough No Retreat! saves that combat resolution kills him. Grey Hunters ftw.

Nearby the furious charging lightning claw/hammer mixing Chaplain'd Vow of preferred enemy-ing assault terminators disembark from their Crusader do what they do best: multicharging the nob squads resulting in nearly all the nobz dieing. On the Thunderwolf side of things, the Fenrisian Wolfscreen lays into the mob of Boyz while Valkur has to spend his 12 Wolf Claw attacks to take down the Boss that had picked Canis out, or risk getting ID'd. Success! Combat continues to swing in my favor, despite taking heavy pup losses. Suck on Fearless saves, orks!

Turn 4

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(I have to apologize, I came back to this 3 months later in an effort to finish it, but my memory is a little fuzzy, some details may be incorrect for not-Space Wolves) Both sides agree that because of time restraints this will have to be our final game turn. With that in mind, Orks descend upon everything.

Having turbo-boosted last turn, Zadsnark and his Nob Bikerz move into position to wreck the freshly dropped Templars and push them off the shrine objective, presumably also hoping to aid the Green Tide on that side of the board. Battlewagons move up, parking as much of their bulk over objectives on the opposite side of the field as they can fit. Deffkoptas move to intercept advancing chimeras while the Skullhamma backs away from Logan, Njal and a handful of Wolf Guard. The remaining Stompa tries to make itself relevant, but can't manuever around several stationary hydra flak placements (It's predicament for the last turn, also). Combat goes as expected, with Zadsnark da Rippa rippa-ing up the Black Templars and consolidating onto their desired objective. In combat, the last rune priest finally falls. Ork bodies fly as the cavalry rips up the last of the Green Tide--reduced to about 9, they fail their morale check horribly and are swept underneath the fury of tooth, claw, and steel. The Templar's Assault Terminators finish with their Nobz on the other side of the board, marching toward the battlewagons.

Our final turn is a fairly straightforward affair. All our shooting, except for maybe 1 Chimera is able to shoot and through the combined firepower of several long fangs, multiple armor detachments, and assorted other heavy weapons bikers, nobz, koptas, buggies, and all manner of greenskins are swept away in a torrent of fire. What few remain are descended upon rapidly by the surviving cavalry, who only took nominal losses this game, conveniently placing a full-strength thunderwolf unit on that objective. The Templar terminators and Skull Pack both assault the battlewagons, trashing the ork vehicles and claiming another objective for the Imperium.

In the end, there were 2 objectives taken by each side. Time constraints kept the fight from going on longer, but through reserves and careful sacrifices we'd maneuvered the greenskins into a beatable position and had enough momentum to push them back off the planet. However, for the purposes of this battle, Armageddon remains with somewhat of an Ork problem.

Cause I have it with every batrep, here's the list I used

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1x Wolf Lord Valkur w/1 wolf: 265 (Saga of the Warrior Born, stormshield, wolf claw, runic Armor, melta bombs)
1x Wolf Lord Magni w/2 wolves: 270 (Saga of the Bear, Storm Shield, Thunderhammer)
1x Canis Wolfborn w/2 wolves: 205
3x Thunderwolves: 205
1x Iron Priest w/ 4 Cyberwolves, Wolftooth Necklace: 165 - Sverrir
Lone Wolf Vali - Chainfist, Storm Shield 1 wolf - 95
Chainfist Lone Wolf, 1 wolf - 95
10 Man grey hunter squad, Wolf Banner, 2 Melta guns - 165 Skull Pack
10 Man Grey Hunter Squad, 2 Plasma Guns - 160 Wolfbones
4 Multimelta Long Fangs - 115 Sunwolf Pack
3x Missile/ 2x Lascannon Long Fangs- 170 Hagalaz
3x Missile/ 2x Heavy Bolter Long Fangs: - 130 Tiewaz
10x Wolf Guard (Hammer/Storm Bolter termniator; Fist/combi melta; combi melta/power weapon; Arjac Rockfist; Terminator/Cyclone; Terminator/Wolfclaw/AC; Combi plasma/terminator/wolf claw; 2x Vanilla, 1x storm bolter) - 538
8x Fenrisian Wolves (one cyberwolf) - 72
Logan Grimnar: 275
Njal Stormcaller in TDA: 270
Rune Priest Tyr: 100 (jaws/Lightning)
Rune Priest in TDA: 120 (Hurricane/Jaws)
Wolf Priest: 100

What'd we learn: I gained a newfound respect for the Wolf Priest. It's hard to fit him in a list (because of what competes with those slots at his points), but what I'd glossed over as a 'meh' unit actually exceded expectations. Everything else performed exactly as I'd expected it to--I was disappointed having to divert Valkur's attacks onto that Warboss, but he fufilled his saga (he did not meet my goal of reaching a 30 total attack count in one turn, however! Sadface!)

[Renegade Paladin]

While we're at it, this was my list for that battle:

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Apocalypse List

3500 points (3250)

Company Command Squad - 200
-Medi-pack, carapace armor
-Three plasma guns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Company Command Squad - 130
-Master of Ordnance
-Vox-caster, camo cloaks
-Power weapon, missile launcher team

Techpriest Enginseer - 50
-Melta bombs

Storm Trooper Squad - 185
-Five additional storm troopers
-Power weapon, flamer, grenade launcher

Veteran Squad - 230
-Sergeant Harker
-Demolitions
-2 flamers, meltagun
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer

Armored Fist Platoon - 25
-(Following three squads)

Veteran Squad - 185
-Demolitions
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-Three meltaguns
-Chimera dedicated transport

Veteran Squad - 155
-2 flamers
-Heavy flamer
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy flamer turret, heavy flamer

Veteran Squad - 140
-Three grenade launchers
-Chimera dedicated transport
--Heavy bolter turret

Veteran Squad - 135
-Forward Sentries
-Vox-caster
-Three grenade launchers, missile launcher

Infantry Platoon - 300
-Platoon Command Squad - 70
--Vox-caster
--Lascannon team
--Power fist
-Infantry Squad - 75
--Lascannon team
--Power weapon
-Infantry Squad - 80
--Vox-caster
--Lascannon team
-Heavy Weapons Squad - 80
--Three autocannons

Hellhound flame tank - 130

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 170
-Heavy bolter sponsons

Leman Russ Demolisher - 195
-Multimelta sponsons

Manticore rocket launcher - 190
-Camo netting

Baneblade - 525
-Command Tank

Hydra support weapons platform - 50

Hydra support weapons platform - 50

Hydra support weapons platform - 50

You may notice wargear bloat; I don't think I used either demolition charge. To be honest, the undercosting to get a strategic asset was partly necessity; I was almost out of models fielding this. I could do better now, with the addition of another Hellhound chassis and a Basilisk to my army, but it was cutting it very close then.

The Manticore was the real key to my strategy in this game; the Baneblade was pretty window dressing and a big distraction, the fate of which was entirely expected since it was the only superheavy we had. Bo understandably (since it isn't his army) leaves out that the Manticore did an impressive amount of work over the course of the game, rolling three blasts twice out of four turns and demolishing several Trukks full of lootas as well as putting a dent in the second Green Tide before it got to the shrine.

[Moskstraumen]

So, I did manage to test play Tau last weekend, against, conveniently, another new kid at the GW store. So, what I learned...
I don't think I like the Tau. The test-play showed me that they absolutely crumble in close combat, and cannot take much of a ranged beating either. Luckily, since I didn't purchase anything, I don't lose anything by switching armies.
So, I might try the Space Marines next.

[Renegade Paladin]

So, I did manage to test play Tau last weekend, against, conveniently, another new kid at the GW store. So, what I learned...
I don't think I like the Tau. The test-play showed me that they absolutely crumble in close combat, and cannot take much of a ranged beating either. Luckily, since I didn't purchase anything, I don't lose anything by switching armies.
So, I might try the Space Marines next.

Personally, I fear and loathe Tau. Probably something to do with those thrice-cursed S10 AP1 railguns.

[Timberwolf]

They are the standard. Plus there's all sorts of sub factions to them which is nice.

[Tome]

So, I did manage to test play Tau last weekend, against, conveniently, another new kid at the GW store. So, what I learned...
I don't think I like the Tau. The test-play showed me that they absolutely crumble in close combat, and cannot take much of a ranged beating either. Luckily, since I didn't purchase anything, I don't lose anything by switching armies.
So, I might try the Space Marines next.

Yeah, folks aren't kidding when they tell you that Tau are bad at assault. They are, quite literally, the single worst army in the game at it. If dying instantly whenever anything gets within assault range bothers you, Tau are definitely not the army for you.

They can manage to be fairly durable at range though. You just need to kit them out properly and make good use of cover/JSJ. Their tanks, which is to say Hammerheads, in particular have a reputation for being nigh-invulnerable when outside Melta range if used properly.

I'd recommend figuring out how you want to play before you choose what flavour of marines you want to pick up, some of them have very different playstyles.

[Cheesegear]

I don't think I like the Tau. The test-play showed me that they absolutely crumble in close combat, and cannot take much of a ranged beating either.

You're new to the game. 4+ armour is quite good. You don't really know what a 'ranged beating' is unless you've got 5+ or less.

Armies that Assault and Range perfectly well;
[Dark/] Eldar. Always my first pick when somebody asks for a new army. I don't like people choosing Space Marines immediately, and [Dark/] Eldar are still 'good at everything' anyway.

Chaos Space Marines or Space Wolves;
Basically the same reasons, so I'll lump them together. Good shooting. Solid Assault. On the front foot or back foot. In the new/casual meta-game, I'd recommend Chaos Marines. But, on the other hand, when you know what you're doing (more importantly, when your opponents know what they're doing), and/or when you have currency to spend and get 'fiddly bits', Space Wolves are a bit better.

Orks. Build everything shooty, then Assault anyway. The only Sluggas that should be found in your models should be on AoBR models which you can't change. Another bonus, they're in AoBR, which gets you a solid core to your army. The only problem with Orks is that they don't cope well against 2+ armour saves.

Tyranids. But only if you've got lots of money.


Space Marines don't really Assault well. Or, at least, nowhere near as well as they should.
Blood Angels don't shoot well. Well, they can, but then you're not playing Blood Angels, and you're more like Orks in Power Armour with guns that can Assault if they feel like it. And Space Wolves do that better.
Grey Knights? For a new kid? No. Just no.

[Moskstraumen]

Yeah, folks aren't kidding when they tell you that Tau are bad at assault. They are, quite literally, the single worst army in the game at it. If dying instantly whenever anything gets within assault range bothers you, Tau are definitely not the army for you.

They can manage to be fairly durable at range though. You just need to kit them out properly and make good use of cover/JSJ. Their tanks, which is to say Hammerheads, in particular have a reputation for being nigh-invulnerable when outside Melta range if used properly.

I'd recommend figuring out how you want to play before you choose what flavour of marines you want to pick up, some of them have very different playstyles.

See, I thought I had picked that out. I really do like the idea of a very "shooty" army. I knew that assault wouldn't be good, but I didn't realize it would be that bad. If I could test it some more, maybe with larger armies (do they let you do that? For reference, I was playing with one CO and two troop squads), I might be able to try some of your strategies and other ones.

You're new to the game. 4+ armour is quite good. You don't really know what a 'ranged beating' is unless you've got 5+ or less.

Armies that Assault and Range perfectly well;
[Dark/] Eldar. Always my first pick when somebody asks for a new army. I don't like people choosing Space Marines immediately, and [Dark/] Eldar are still 'good at everything' anyway.

Chaos Space Marines or Space Wolves;
Basically the same reasons, so I'll lump them together. Good shooting. Solid Assault. On the front foot or back foot. In the new/casual meta-game, I'd recommend Chaos Marines. But, on the other hand, when you know what you're doing (more importantly, when your opponents know what they're doing), and/or when you have currency to spend and get 'fiddly bits', Space Wolves are a bit better.

Orks. Build everything shooty, then Assault anyway. The only Sluggas that should be found in your models should be on AoBR models which you can't change. Another bonus, they're in AoBR, which gets you a solid core to your army. The only problem with Orks is that they don't cope well against 2+ armour saves.

Tyranids. But only if you've got lots of money.


Space Marines don't really Assault well. Or, at least, nowhere near as well as they should.
Blood Angels don't shoot well. Well, they can, but then you're not playing Blood Angels, and you're more like Orks in Power Armour with guns that can Assault if they feel like it. And Space Wolves do that better.
Grey Knights? For a new kid? No. Just no.

I suppose I could try Eldar. From reading your army guides, it seems like the "horde" armies (Tyranids and Orks) wouldn't do too well with me. Due to a lack of funds. And the Space Wolves/Chaos Marines sounds like a good idea, too.
Hoo-boy, this is a time-consuming hobby, isn't it?

[Tome]

See, I thought I had picked that out. I really do like the idea of a very "shooty" army. I knew that assault wouldn't be good, but I didn't realize it would be that bad. If I could test it some more, maybe with larger armies (do they let you do that? For reference, I was playing with one CO and two troop squads), I might be able to try some of your strategies and other ones.

Ah, that might be something of your problem. Tau Troops are pretty bad, mostly due to being pretty badly overcosted (Fire Warriors) or not actually being good at their intended role (Kroot). The real power is in their Heavy Support (Broadsides) and Elite (Crisis Suits) choices. Still, I wouldn't recommend them for a beginner.

Normally test games at GW stores are done with the Assault on Black Reach set, which is Orks vs Space Marines. If they gave you your trial match with some other army then they might as well let you do it with a larger selection of it.

[Ricky S]

Blood Angels don't shoot well. Well, they can, but then you're not playing Blood Angels, and you're more like Orks in Power Armour with guns that can Assault if they feel like it.

My dakka baal predator disagrees with you .


Tau are a pretty hard army to master seeing as they do suffer so much in combat. It just boils down to shooting and moving all the time. If you stop moving you get stomped. But that being said crisis suits are remarkably good in close combat. Charge with three and you are getting 9 str 5 attacks usually hitting on 4's. I frequently beat up guard equivalents in combat and have taken out a few vehicles this way as well.

[Tome]

Tau are a pretty hard army to master seeing as they do suffer so much in combat. It just boils down to shooting and moving all the time. If you stop moving you get stomped. But that being said crisis suits are remarkably good in close combat. Charge with three and you are getting 9 str 5 attacks usually hitting on 4's. I frequently beat up guard equivalents in combat and have taken out a few vehicles this way as well.

Yeah, moving and shooting is their thing, pretty much. The big problem is that their main troops choice, Fire Warriors, have to choose one or the other (thank you, Rapid Fire) unless the enemy is in assault range. Well, that and the fact that they shoot about as well as a Tactical Marine, which isn't so great when you consider their cost relative to the rest of their stats (worse than a Guardsman, but costs twice as much) and the fact that they can't take any sort of special or heavy weapon.

Guard are the second worst army in assault (Necrons/SoB are probably third). Crisis Suits, in sufficiently large numbers can take a single squad of Guardsmen. Except there's no such thing, because Combined Squads exists and Guardsmen are dirt cheap. They can maybe wreck light transports. But virtually every gun in the entire army has the same or better chance of doing so and you generally want to be as far from the enemy as possible and using your Jetpack move to get even further away. There is no other circumstance where you should be even considering Assaulting with your ~50 point, WS2 I2 Crisis Suits. And even then you shouldn't do it it puts you in assault range of anything else or leaves you stranded out in the open. Crisis Suits are tasty targets for high Strength, low AP weapons like Lascannons that ignore saves and cause Instant Death, they need their cover.

My Commander's Shield Drones have scored more assault kills than all the Crisis Suits in my army put together.

[iyaerP]

Wait, why would you ever be assualting guardsmen if you could have your crisis suits flamer them instead?

[Hootman]

Wait, why would you ever be assualting guardsmen if you could have your crisis suits flamer them instead?

Well, flamers ARE assault weapons, generally speaking. And if the alternative is get shot by the 21 guys you didn't manage to kill with the flamers...