Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[Turcano]

Either way, it doesn't really matter. That list isn't anywhere near unbeatable. I mean, it's workable (though I really don't like the Punisher; it costs way too much for what it does), but Hydras (or just sufficient autocannons, really, though Hydras are best at it) take care of the Vendetta problem, ordnance barrage of any type puts paid to blobs in a very big hurry, and except for the Vendettas he's got no high-strength anti-armor without getting into melta range. None of his vehicles except the Vendettas has anything over S7. The army will ruin a footslogger's day, but mech is king and he doesn't have the weaponry to deal with armor saturation.

Maybe the metagame is different over here, but I've seen the army in action and it eats Space Marine mech lists for breakfast.

How do people feel about Draigo+20 paladins+Librarian army? The idea of a super elite army appeals to me, and it did take 4th place at a local tounry around here with 100+ players...I was just wondering about peoples thoughts here about its viability.

Draigowing is a trap. One demolisher cannon gets into range and the army is done. If you're looking for an Elite-heavy Grey Knights army that's actually good, Purifier spam is where it's at.

[Timberwolf]

I take my Librarian because she's dead killy (Canoness modeled to be an Inquisitor before anyone jumps on me with the flaming stick of death for having a female space marine) and is the cheapest good HQ (free power sword that with the right choices will instant death stuff, of course). The Psychic hood is a nice thing as well and makes the Librarian the only game in town as far as I'm concerned.

GK Librarians go beyond mine in terms of ability to slaughter things. My Librarian relies on S10 to mess things up. And it's certifiably brilliant at that. Unfortunately, the GK's get the equivalent of a Terminator epistolary for less points than I'd have to spend for equivalent performance (although I can laugh a GK's from behind my Storm Shield when I take my Terminator Librarian) and can take all manner of nasty powers that no one else gets and are stupidly good, for the most part, anyway.

On the subject of the Guard list, I'm due to be playing a Guard player with a Manticore, a lot of lascannons, three Leman Russes and a Vendetta soon. This is a worrying list for someone like me who uses a lot of mech and, if he really means it, 3 big models in the form of Stormravens. A pair of vendettas being the only really serious anti armour, while undeniably scary if they are left alive, are ripe targets for my favourite first turn move against units like that, namely a Bloodstike missile salvo. I think your mate must have a load of infantry lascannons somewhere because I'd be worrying far more about the game I'm playing than playing him if you are remembering his list correctly.

[userpay]

Supposedly after Necrons, just before 6th Ed premiers. But, it's all just a rumour.

Pity, Tau are one of my favorites and its kinda hard playing against races that have gotten upgrades... Is there any eta on the Necrons book coming out or is that rumor still as well?

[Trixie]

GK Librarians go beyond mine in terms of ability to slaughter things. My Librarian relies on S10 to mess things up. And it's certifiably brilliant at that. Unfortunately, the GK's get the equivalent of a Terminator epistolary for less points than I'd have to spend for equivalent performance (although I can laugh a GK's from behind my Storm Shield when I take my Terminator Librarian) and can take all manner of nasty powers that no one else gets and are stupidly good, for the most part, anyway.

Don't GK Librarians have 3++ in CC for free anyway?

Pity, Tau are one of my favorites and its kinda hard playing against races that have gotten upgrades... Is there any eta on the Necrons book coming out or is that rumor still as well?

No, Dreadfleet thing kind of drowned (heh) that out. Still, if rumours are to be believed, Necrons are supposed to have to most gun options ever of any army. We'll see.

Also, if you thought you had mechanized support...

Better don't look at this

[Renegade Paladin]

Maybe the metagame is different over here, but I've seen the army in action and it eats Space Marine mech lists for breakfast.

It would, because AV11, meaning a Punisher with Pask in it can eat Rhinos and Razorbacks for breakfast. How many Land Raiders (or Leman Russes other than his own) does your meta see?

[Talkkno]

Draigowing is a trap. One demolisher cannon gets into range and the army is done. If you're looking for an Elite-heavy Grey Knights army that's actually good, Purifier spam is where it's at.

Eh, you'll have two bad match ups i'd reckon, Dark Eldar(Due to dark lances) and mech heavy guard(Who are the only who takes demolisher cannons, and even then usually only one.

[Cheesegear]

How do people feel about Draigo+20 paladins+Librarian army? The idea of a super elite army appeals to me, and it did take 4th place at a local tounry around here with 100+ players...I was just wondering about peoples thoughts here about its viability.

It is viable. The last couple of tournaments in Australia have had Draigo lists taking top positions. It's only viable because the meta-game doesn't take things that can counter it (i.e; Vindicators). The competitive meta-game hates Vindicators. And, considering it's one of the few things that stops Paladins. Dead. Just makes me giggle.

Draigo
x10 Paladins (all different for musical wounds)
x5 Paladins (x2 Psycannons, Hammer)

As many Dreadknights as you can fit. Use Draigo's Strategy to make the Dreadknights Scoring and you're ready to roll.

The usual counter for this list is Dark Eldar. But, just play smart, give everyone cover saves and get your Dreadknights into combat ASAP (!!!).

I really want to make a 6 Contemptor list now...

Quick question, can I use Contemptors for a Hextad of Ancients? (IA10, pg 208)

[Turcano]

It would, because AV11, meaning a Punisher with Pask in it can eat Rhinos and Razorbacks for breakfast. How many Land Raiders (or Leman Russes other than his own) does your meta see?

Most Space Marine armies in my neck of the woods have a Land Raider, if memory serves, and this guy pops Land Raiders on the first turn quite frequently.

[Renegade Paladin]

Most Space Marine armies in my neck of the woods have a Land Raider, if memory serves, and this guy pops Land Raiders on the first turn quite frequently.

Then he's got something else going on, because the only thing you named that can scratch one first turn is the Vendetta squadron, and while that's a lot of dakka, I'd be kind of surprised if he wasn't outflanking with them (barring Land Raiders, side/rear armor tends to be tasty) and even if he's not it isn't enough dakka to guarantee popping AV14 first turn. Are those blobs packing lascannons?

[Turcano]

Then he's got something else going on, because the only thing you named that can scratch one first turn is the Vendetta squadron, and while that's a lot of dakka, I'd be kind of surprised if he wasn't outflanking with them (barring Land Raiders, side/rear armor tends to be tasty) and even if he's not it isn't enough dakka to guarantee popping AV14 first turn. Are those blobs packing lascannons?

I honestly don't remember, and I'll try to get his list the next time I see him. But I've watched him do it just with the Vendettas.

[Renegade Paladin]

Vendettas can do it, but the odds aren't spectacular. First he has to win initiative; any opponent worth his dice is going to swat them out of the sky if they're in his initial deployment if he doesn't. Then there's two of them, so they have six twin-linked lascannons at BS3 between them. These have to fire at the same target, since they're in a squadron. So right away if the opponent has two heavily armored vehicles, one survives the first turn guaranteed. They have to hit the one they shoot at (which they probably will; odds are it will take 4-5 lascannon shots from this), penetrate (33% chance per shot), and then roll five or six on the damage chart (33% again). So their salvo will destroy an AV14 vehicle roughly half the time - and they have to go first. So these aren't terrible odds, but he's probably not doing it all the time. A Space Marine force centered around a single Land Raider will suffer terribly from this - de-mech the Terminators, then plasma cannon them to death while dealing with their lesser armor with the lower strength guns in the list. But that's far from the only build in town.

If I were tailoring for the list you describe, I'd bring Hydras, an ordnance battery or Leman Russ squadron depending on how I felt that day, melta vets, a lascannon blob, and some Hellhounds and their variants to mop up the opposing tarpit blobs without actually being tarpitted. If I weren't, I'd bring something similar anyway because it works. Again, it's not unbeatable (obviously; I lose with some regularity), but there's enough armor in there to keep lone tank-hunting units (such as his Vendettas) busy and enough long-range firepower to clean up most things before they get to assault range with a little luck. Once the Vendettas are gone, I'd roll my Demolisher and melta vets right up to the opposing line and commence blasting; not much in the way of armor survives S10 ordnance accompanied by multimeltas for very long and Executioners and Punishers don't have the capacity to crack AV14. Would I win against his list? Maybe, maybe not. But I wouldn't be afraid to play it.

[FireJustice]

Can someone tell me if there's a Black templar list that uses 3 Dreadnoghts?

Just got three (one is venerable i think) from a bazaar at a ridicullous price (less tem fifty, with me insisting to pay more)

Also got the codex, in Itallian...so I will need a time to read.

[Cheesegear]

Can someone tell me if there's a Black templar list that uses 3 Dreadnoghts?

If you want Dreadnoughts, take Dreadnoughts.
As fir whether or not BT Dreadnouights are good competitively...Not really. They lack the better options of the other Codecies (Autocannons spring to mind).

...And that's it. With the exception of Autcannons, BT Dreads are the same as other Chapers' Dreads. However, that being said, Autocannons are what makes other Chapters' Dreads good.

[FireJustice]

yeah... I'm trying to read the codex right now

so they also can't have two DCCW too

[Cheesegear]

so they also can't have two DCCW too

Nobody can except Blood Angels (and they barely do it anyway). So I don't see the problem.

I'd like to say that a MM/HF Dread in a Drop Pod could work, like it does with Space Marines. Except it doesn't because Black Templars don't have good Drop Pods.

Basically, BT Dreads are limited to Lascannon and Missile Launcher (only 135 points!). Mostly because that's what BTs need. For 10 points, take Tank Hunter and you're set to go for the same cost as Space Marines Dread in the same configuration without Tank Hunter.

But, before you think that's awesome, Space Marines wouldn't be doing that in the first place.

[Trixie]

yeah... I'm trying to read the codex right now

so they also can't have two DCCW too

Technically, you can - there is Durandal-pattern BT CC Dreadnought, sadly, it was GW site-only PDF addition, so it requires consent of your enemy. Though, unlike BA dreads, it can re-roll to hits, making it pretty nasty

[Cheesegear]

Technically, you can - there is Durandal-pattern BT CC Dreadnought, sadly, it was GW site-only PDF addition, so it requires consent of your enemy.

Since I really can't be bothered to download something that isn't even legal, how many points is it?

Secondly, due to the way Black Templars' work (i.e; minimal ranged fire support), having a Dread that doesn't shoot Lascannons and/or Missile Launchers is going to fail.
Mech-BT lists are done better by Space Marines or Wolves. So, that leaves you with foot-BTs, and generally that means that Dreads are going to be the only vehicles in the list (let's say you don't have the points for Terminators, which you should find points for). Or whatever reason you can come up with for not having Land Speeders...
If Dreads are going to be the only vehicle in a list, they'd better be shooting. If they're going to be in a BT army at all, they'd better be shooting.

Similar to the above points, its a move-forwards Dread. Can it ignore Crew Shaken? If it can't...

[IthilanorStPete]

Nobody can except Blood Angels (and they barely do it anyway). So I don't see the problem.

Don't forget Ironclads!

[HalfTangible]

Technically, you can - there is Durandal-pattern BT CC Dreadnought, sadly, it was GW site-only PDF addition, so it requires consent of your enemy. Though, unlike BA dreads, it can re-roll to hits, making it pretty nasty

If you give your BA Dreadnaught blood talons, he gets four attacks and a new attack for every successful wound.

[Trixie]

If you give your BA Dreadnaught blood talons, he gets four attacks and a new attack for every successful wound.

But not re-rolling S10 + 2d6 penetration, though.

...

Anyway, I had battle eleven of the campaign I mentioned earlier. Today, I wanted to test both MSU and Contemptor-class Dreads, so proxied 2 of them.

Space Marine Force:

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HQ:

Librarian [100]
-Null Zone/Avenger

Elite:

Dread [125]
- 2x Autocannon

Contemptor [180]
- Autocannon

Contemptor [180]
- Autocannon

Troop:

Tactical x5 [165]
-Razorback /LasPlas

Tactical x5 [165]
-Razorback /LasPlas

Tactical x5 [165]
-Razorback /LasPlas

Tactical x5 [165]
-Razorback /LasPlas

HSup:

Predator [85]
-HBolter

Predator [85]
-HBolter

Predator [85]
-HBolter

In total, 10 vehicles in 1500 pts.

Against them stood vile Eldar:

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Eldrad (-)
[210]

Autach (-) Power Weapon (-)
[80]

3 Wasp Walkers (-) 6 Scatter Lasers (-)
[225]

Fire Prism (-) Holo-fields (-) Spirit Stones (-)
[160]

Fire Prism (-) Holo-fields (-) Spirit Stones (-)
[160]

Fire Prism (-) Holo-fields (-) Spirit Stones (-)
[160]

Wave Serpent (-) Spirit Stones (-) TL Missile Launchers (-)
[130]

Wave Serpent (-) Spirit Stones (-) TL Missile Launchers (-)
[130]

10 Guardians (-) Scatter Laser (-) Warlock (-) Embolden (-)
[125]

10 Guardians (-) Scatter Laser (-) Warlock (-) Embolden (-)
[125]

In order to counteract Contemptors, Eldrad took 3 Wasp walkers, though, lacking models, he proxied regular War Walkers instead, devious Xeno he is.

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Result? Well, pretty much opponent conceding at the end of my 3rd turn (I went second, Dawn of War, Seize Ground), having lost 3 out of 5 tanks and having his two squads slowly gunned to pieces after they were de-meched. I, on the other hand, suffered a few weapon destroyed results, never disembarking a single marine or using a single power (I wonder, can the 5+ Inv save be used on Librarian's transport?). All in all, tactically, it was a fun game, though it felt tedious at times.

Contemptors? Didn't do much, Eldar fled the flank on which they were deployed, I believe they did a few glances/killed a few Guardians, overall, I'd be better off with 2 more Riflemen, I believe.

Wasps? Well, Eldrad tried to DS them. Behind my tanks. It turns out it wasn't good idea.

Overall, I'm not sure I like parking lot, I wished GK had a few more vehicles, but now, maybe it's good they don't?

Oh, and after looking at my list, the thing that caused the Eldar to question Ward's parentage was 85 pts Predators. Huh, nice to know SM do have decent units after all

Any suggestions for improvement for either list?

[Renegade Paladin]

Since I really can't be bothered to download something that isn't even legal, how many points is it?

Since no one else answered, I took a look. 95 points. Can be upgraded to venerable for +20.

[Cheesegear]

Any suggestions for improvement for either list?
Space Marine Force:

Spoiler

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HQ:

Librarian [100]
-Null Zone/Avenger

Elite:

Dread [125]
- 2x Autocannon

Contemptor [180]
- Autocannon

Contemptor [180]
- Autocannon

Troop:

Tactical x5 [165]
-Razorback /LasPlas

Tactical x5 [165]
-Razorback /LasPlas

Tactical x5 [165]
-Razorback /LasPlas

Tactical x5 [165]
-Razorback /LasPlas

HSup:

Predator [85]
-HBolter

Predator [85]
-HBolter

Predator [85]
-HBolter

Looks exactly like a standard Space Marine list. I don't like the points cost of Contemptors. You could drop them down to normal Dreads and pick up some Land Speeders. Consider dropping one of the Tactical Squads for a second Librarian, and another Land Speeder. Still, this is roughly the same list that I've seen at least 20 times.

Against them stood vile Eldar:

Spoiler

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Eldrad (-)
[210]

Autach (-) Power Weapon (-)
[80]

3 Wasp Walkers (-) 6 Scatter Lasers (-)
[225]

Fire Prism (-) Holo-fields (-) Spirit Stones (-)
[160]

Fire Prism (-) Holo-fields (-) Spirit Stones (-)
[160]

Fire Prism (-) Holo-fields (-) Spirit Stones (-)
[160]

Wave Serpent (-) Spirit Stones (-) TL Missile Launchers (-)
[130]

Wave Serpent (-) Spirit Stones (-) TL Missile Launchers (-)
[130]

10 Guardians (-) Scatter Laser (-) Warlock (-) Embolden (-)
[125]

10 Guardians (-) Scatter Laser (-) Warlock (-) Embolden (-)
[125]

Eldrad is over costed. He's borderline terrible.
Autarch isn't on a Jetbike. Mostly terrible.
I don't know what Wasp Walkers do. But I'm willing to bet that they're a little too expensive. Probably could be replaced with Vypers. Or a unit of Shining Spears for the Autarch who needs to be fixed.

Fire Prisms? Yep.

Guardians are terrible. Everyone knows. If they were Storm Guardians they could at least have Fusion Guns, but they're regular Guardians and so therefore crap. Drop their Wave Serpents and give them Conceal. Or just drop them altogether for Dire Avengers. Basically, any other Troops choice (inc. Wraithguard) are better than Guardians. The only use for them is a Scatter Laser with Conceal. But, you could get Vypers to do that. Which is what I've already included above.

Space Marines don't take Extra Armour on anything. Eldar shouldn't take Spirit Stones on anything. Use the 50 points to turn the Guardians into Dire Avengers.

Since no one else answered, I took a look. 95 points. Can be upgraded to venerable for +20.

That's not bad. Actually. Still, you haven't stopped requiring the rest of the Codex to build your army out of, and you still need Fire Support. Which is what every squad that isn't a Crusader Squad needs to be.

[Trixie]

Looks exactly like a standard Space Marine list. I don't like the points cost of Contemptors. You could drop them down to normal Dreads and pick up some Land Speeders.

Well, yeah, as I noted in the post-battle notes, Contemptors are pretty disappointing, and Riflemen would have been better

Still, I think my main issue with Contemptor is how schizophrenic it is. Is it shooty? Better save vs shooting, hard armour only in front, and number of guns it can take would suggest so, but... At the same time, it's higher than normal dread, which doesn't translate into gun height advantage, you can take only one gun (at least according to FW website rules), its WS is better than BS (and can't be raised) and it generally has a lot of issues, price being first of them. Would not recommend, IMHO, Ironclads are better, as are Riflemen.

Though, the above is written without seeing the book, IA v2 rules, which are probably better.

Consider dropping one of the Tactical Squads for a second Librarian, and another Land Speeder. Still, this is roughly the same list that I've seen at least 20 times.

Not that I disagree with it, seeing I already took out 2 TSquads to fit Contemptors, but... Aren't at least 4 troops in 1500 pts mandatory?

And yes, trying this list made me want to try other things.

Autarch isn't on a Jetbike. Mostly terrible.
I don't know what Wasp Walkers do. But I'm willing to bet that they're a little too expensive. Probably could be replaced with Vypers. Or a unit of Shining Spears for the Autarch who needs to be fixed.

Fire Prisms? Yep.

Guardians are terrible. Everyone knows. If they were Storm Guardians they could at least have Fusion Guns, but they're regular Guardians and so therefore crap. Drop their Wave Serpents and give them Conceal. Or just drop them altogether for Dire Avengers. Basically, any other Troops choice (inc. Wraithguard) are better than Guardians. The only use for them is a Scatter Laser with Conceal. But, you could get Vypers to do that. Which is what I've already included above.

This advice is terrible and should never be followed!

Okay, maybe I'm just bitter because my opponent actually read it and fielded most of these. Including Jetbike Autarch, who proceeded to slaughter my marines despite FNP and held out 3 turns in combat with PFist Sergeant once someone actually managed to tarpit him, making every save I could force on him

In other words, tried today (12th battle of campaign) a complete opposite of my previous list, 50 BA marines to check out Descent of Angels in my first big game with that Codex. Actually seeing for your own (as opposed to enemy playing it) what it does is pretty nice (and teaching) experience, though turns out reserves even with re-rolls can be pretty unreliable (1/3 of my army arriving on Turn 2 only to pretty much be owned without causing much losses, fortunately, 30 marines in Turn 3 managed to stem the tide somewhat).

Also, as we're not sure, can something like this happen? A single marine in combat with 3 Eldar units (remnant of that Turn 2 drop) managed to cause 1 wound on Eldars, making 2 full units of them to fail the Ld check, not pursuing (it's forbidden to locked units, right?) but still destroying 2 of them since it was close to Eldar table edge - the irony being both of these were undamaged squads. Did we misread the rules somewhere?

[HalfTangible]

Questions about writing fluff for a space marine chapter... Not sure if there's a fluff thread =/

According to the Lexicanum entry on geneseed, tithes on said geneseed are preserved in case a chapter needs to be restored/refounded later. Would a space marine chapter that has gone through such a revival several times be too strange and/or cliche?

[Ricky S]

Questions about writing fluff for a space marine chapter... Not sure if there's a fluff thread =/

According to the Lexicanum entry on geneseed, tithes on said geneseed are preserved in case a chapter needs to be restored/refounded later. Would a space marine chapter that has gone through such a revival several times be too strange and/or cliche?

There is a fluff thread but to answer your question it would most likely be unheard of for a chapter to have a new founding more than once. Generally they are not wiped out except in extremely dire circumstances. Also even if they are wiped out it has to be authorised by the high council of terra for the chapter to be remade. So once is acceptable but more is probably not.

[Cheesegear]

Would not recommend, IMHO, Ironclads are better [than Contemptors], as are Riflemen.

I might pick up a few Contemptors anyway and use them as Ironclads. There are some very nice Templar conversions on FW's Facebook page, and I might use them for my Fists.

I'm also thinking about picking up some Red Scorpions. The Culln model is pretty badarse and turns all Sergeants into Apothecaries. In a regular list, you would lose the Combi-Meltas and Flamers, and a few Power Fists. But all your squads would gain FNP. Which is handy for MSU Razorspam.

Sevrin Loth is pretty amazing too. Since he gets a psychic 2+ Invulnerable that lasts until his next turn (take that Dark Angels), and it can't be negated by Psychic Hoods.

Not that I disagree with it, seeing I already took out 2 TSquads to fit Contemptors, but... Aren't at least 4 troops in 1500 pts mandatory?

What do you mean 'mandatory'? As in, 'at 1500 points it's a good idea', or do you believe that there's some hard-and-fast rule that says you have to?

The former is correct, anyway. It's certainly a good idea to take 4 Troops in 1500 points, especially in MSU where you need all the models on the board that you can get. But, in the list presented, Comp Score seems to be barely an issue and you should table your opponent before Scoring comes into effect anyway.

And yes, trying this list made me want to try other things.

Hooray! No, seriously. It is a very powerful list and I get why people want to play it. But it's really boring to play. Both for and against. Its one of the lists you play when you don't want to play anymore. Half your games are over in three turns, and the other half of your games you don't even play because nobody will play you.

According to the Lexicanum entry on geneseed, tithes on said geneseed are preserved in case a chapter needs to be restored/refounded later. Would a space marine chapter that has gone through such a revival several times be too strange and/or cliche?

Also even if they are wiped out it has to be authorised by the high council of terra for the chapter to be remade. So once is acceptable but more is probably not.

Ricky S has hit the nail on the head. It's certainly possible for a Chapter to be refounded. But, has to be authorised. Otherwise, why aren't the survivors of the Chapter just filtered into Successor Chapters or inducted into the Blackshields? If the Chapter was wiped out entirely, why not just start a new Chapter from scratch? Why use old gene-seed that is obviously terrible because the Chapter died?

Anyway, for a Chapter to be refounded, you'd need a really, really, really good reason. And nearly anything you can come up with that is like that, would probably come off as Mary Sue-ish. I'm not saying don't try. I'm saying it's not going to be very easy.

There is a fluff thread. It just hasn't been posted in in...Two days. And yet is on the second page already.

[Etcetera]

Hooray! No, seriously. It is a very powerful list and I get why people want to play it. But it's really boring to play. Both for and against. Its one of the lists you play when you don't want to play anymore. Half your games are over in three turns, and the other half of your games you don't even play because nobody will play you.

Glad I'm not the only one who thought this. Is there much variation in a Descent of Angels list, because a quick google revealed I was facing a 1500 point version of this.

[Cheesegear]

Is there much variation in a Descent of Angels list, because a quick google revealed I was facing a 1500 point version of this.

Yeah. The Vanguard could be better tooled out. 2-3 Storm Shields on top of what's there make them mini-Hammernators. Honour Guard I'm not a fan of in DoA. I feel that they're better off in a Drop Pod and being Sternguard-lite, and only because your Elite slots should already be filled by Priests and Dreads. And, if they're in a Drop Pod, they're not DoAing, and so shouldn't be in the list.

The Troops choices are Sanguinary Guard, Death Company or what's linked. Death Company and Sanguinary Guard should already be in their own specialised list, which doesn't really use DoA. But it's not uncommon to see them in DoA lists anyway. Ever seen 30 Death Company land on a Locator Beacon then proceed to roflstomp?

I run a DoA list for 1250 where it works best. I don't think it works real well at 1750+ points, because then you could be running Death Company or Sanguinary Guard specialised-lists instead.

[Etcetera]

For reference, the list I was using:

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Autarch: Jetbike , Laser Lance , Mandiblasters
[130]

Farseer: Doom, Singing Spear (Rides with Avengers)
[83]

5 Fire Dragons
[80]

Wave Serpent: Shuriken Cannon, Star Engines
[115]

5 Fire Dragons
[80]

Wave Serpent: Shuriken Cannon, Star Engines
[115]

10 Dire Avengers: Exarch , Twin Catapults, Bladestorm
[152]

Wave Serpent : Shuriken Cannon, Star Engines
[115]

10 Dire Avengers: Exarch , Twin Catapults, Bladestorm
[152]

Wave Serpent : Shuriken Cannon, Star Engines
[115]

5 Shining Spears: Exarch , Star Lance
[202]

Fire Prism : Holofields, Spirit Stones
[160]

1499 points

Due to irritating Blood Angel deep strike shenanigans Turn 1 I encircled my wave serpents to reduce LoS to my Shining Spears. This turned out to be a mistake, as it made them quite vulnerable to blood lance. More irritating was losing my Fire Prism's prism cannon, which would have been murder against deep striking MEQs, FNP or otherwise.

Turn two I disembarked and shot everything at a unit of Assault Marines and the Honour Guard, killing 7 in the first unit and 3 in the second. The shining spears assaulted and killed the remained of the honour guard, while both units of Dragons and the Avenger unit sans Farseer assaulted the 4 remaining AM. three turns later they were still locked in combat with two guys, one unit of dragons having taken two casualties. After one of these the intact unit of dragons and the Dire Avengers both legged it off the board and were destroyed.

Needless to say, I was not impressed.

Any advice on the list? I was thinking about dropping a unit of Dragons and taking another prism or unit of spears.

[lord_khaine]

Eldrad is over costed. He's borderline terrible.

This isnt correct, Eldrad is a great deal as long as you dont need a Farseer on a jetbike.

He can more or less do the work of 2 Farseers at once, either guiding 2 units each turn, or keeping himself and another unit fortuned while still finding time to doom someone as well.

And this is besides getting T4, meaning he wont get oneshottet anymore by annoying Relic blades, or some of the smaller monstrous creatures.

includet in the price are also a 3++ save, meaning that Eldrad on his own is able to tarpit a lot of dangerous HQ units, as long as fortune is running.

And lastly his weapon acts like a power weapon, meaning he will actualy be able to kill something once in a while, unlike just about all the other farseers.