Warhammer 40K Tabletop XIII: "Ironclads, Furiosos and Soul Grinders, oh my!"

[Tome]

So, after looking at Daemons, I'm thinking of going Nurgle, with Ku'gath and Epidemius. Advice?

Edit: Also, do Soul Grinders fill the role of GIANT ARMORED VEHICLE well?

Generally speaking, you want to stick to one or the other when it comes to vehicles and infantry. Though Soul Grinders may well be strong enough to warrant an exception.

Also, from what I understand, if you're running Epidemus you want to maximise him. So taking a unit that doesn't contribute to his tally might not be the best idea. I think the basic list is something like Epidemus, Ku-Gath and as many Plaguebearers, Nurglings and Daemon Princes of Nurgle as you can manage.

But I'm not the authority on Daemons here, particularly in 40K.

[Cheesegear]

So, after looking at Daemons, I'm thinking of going Nurgle, with Ku'gath and Epidemius. Advice?

I think the basic list is something like Epidemus, Ku-Gath and as many Plaguebearers, Nurglings and Daemon Princes of Nurgle as you can manage.

Pretty much. Some people also take Masque in the second Herald slot for the ability to get Pavane happening so Breath of Chaos on Daemon Princes can work it's magic. Although, the second Herald slot can just be another Herald of Nurgle...So, yeah.

Also, do Soul Grinders fill the role of GIANT ARMORED VEHICLE well?

FA/SA 13 makes them immune to Krak grenades in Assault. The Daemon rule makes them immune to Shakes and Stuns, having actual longer-range weapons makes Deep Striking more forgiving and packing S8, AP3 Large Blast is very, very nice.

But not in a Nurgle list. You want to rack up the Tally. Hard. You should be looking at Daemon Princes of Nurgle with Breath of Chaos over Soul Grinders every time.

[Lowkey Lyesmith]

more revisions:

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HQ:
Lord Commissar: 70pt you could have a Primaris psyker instead, but if you want to keep the commisar, give him a Power weapon.

TROOP:
Airborne Veteran squad 1: 130pt
3 meltaguns, grenadiers

Airborne Veteran squad 2: 130pt
3 meltaguns, grenadiers

Airborne Veteran squad 3: 130pt
3 meltaguns, grenadiers

Fast attack:
Valkyrie assault carrier: 130pt
(caries a veteran squad)
lascannons Multilaser, multiple rocket pods, heavy bolters

vendetta gunship 1: 130pt
heavy bolters

vendetta gunship 2: 130pt
heavy bolters

Heavy support:
Lemun Russ squadron 1: 390pt
2 demolishers
All: meltaguns

Lemun Russ squadron 2: 330pt
2 battletanks
All: lascannon, heavy stubber

hydra flack tank battery: 225pt
3 hydra flack tanks

total: after revisions by me 1795 points

There are other things I would change aswell, but these things have been bugging me. Why do you have Heavy bolters on you vendettas? Or your Valkyrie for that matter?

[Draconi Redfir]

Ok soo... ever since I’ve seen the "40k lore in (about) a minute" on youtube, followed by two dreams about me being a space marine, followed by me playing dawn of war 2 again... i think I’m starting to get back into warhammer finally, though i have missed out on a lot of things.


... Are the Nids still cool?

[Trixie]

Sorta, though that heavily depends on your local metagame. Nids hate too many GK/DEldar/heavy mech players.

[Cheesegear]

i think I’m starting to get back into warhammer finally, though i have missed out on a lot of things.

Let's see...It depends on how long you've been gone for;
Transports are amazing now. Mech Is King.
MSU is back with a vengeance.
Chaos Marines have fallen from the top in a big, big way.
Dark Angels and Black Templars are awesome again.
Shooty armies beat Assaulty armies. Generally. Instead of the other way 'round. Corollary, cover saves win games.
Unit Weaving is dead.

Are the Nids still cool?

No. This question makes me think you've been gone since 3rd Ed, or at least during the time during 4th when Tyranids could basically do whatever they wanted. Tyranids have also recently lost unit weaving. But, so has everyone else.
Tyranids do really, really well if they don't have to deal with Mechanised Units (Transports and Tanks). Unfortunately, the current meta-game is Mech Is King, and - competitively, mind - most of the games you'll play deal with heavy Mech. And Tyranids don't have fun.

Current top dogs are Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Eldar. No particular order. Grey Knights too depending on who you ask. Imperial Guard should be on the list, but from what I understand, a lot of the high-tier players just don't want to spend that much money, not when they can get an army half the size (for painting reasons) for half the cost.

[Eldan]

What's unit weaving?

Not a term I think I've heard before.

[Cheesegear]

What's unit weaving?

Not a term I think I've heard before.

Doesn't really matter anymore, since you can't do it. Basically, if you have enough models, you can intertwine two units together in such a way that if an opponent is trying to shoot at either unit, each of them is at least 50% covered by intervening models granting a cover save for all involved.

[Draconi Redfir]

think the latest updates to the nids when i left were... Carnifex, Zanthrope, Hive Tyrant, and Tyrant guard got makeovers, boneswords became a thing, flesh whips ceased being a thing, tyrant guards no longer had shields, the red terror and old one-eye had been removed, and some kind of special Lictor came into existence. Basically the era of the Medusa V summer campaign i think.

Think the key factor that made me stop playing was that my local games workshop closed down, there’s still another one in the same city, but it’s on the opposite side, so we would need to drive twice as far to get there.

Basically we live north of the city, the old games workshop was in the north part of the city, and the only remaining one is in the south end of the city.

[Cheesegear]

boneswords became a thing

Boneswords became a thing again. In fact, seems like you haven't been gone long at all (just over a year and a half at most?). No. Tyranids are...Pretty bad. It looks like you left right after the Tyranid Codex was redone. Which, at that time, Tyranids were doing rather well, even if it was down to one or two entries that everyone took.

But, two-three months after that, the Errata/FAQ was released and Tyranids became terrible. Blood Angels was released with absurd ways to build Mechanised lists, which crapped on anything the Tyranids could put out, then Dark Eldar was released putting all Monstrous Creatures in the toilet and putting Hormagaunts to shame. Then Grey Knights were released with amazing shooty capabilities that absolutely destroy anything not in a Transport (which is all Tyranids).

[gabado]

There are other things I would change aswell, but these things have been bugging me. Why do you have Heavy bolters on you vendettas? Or your Valkyrie for that matter?

Idk why I have them on the vendettas. I put them on the Valkyrie because I thought they complimented the valkyrie's anti infantry status quite well, if
You think I should lose them off the vendettas then i certainelly will, but I think I'll keep the ones on my Valkyrie.

[Trixie]

Then Grey Knights were released with amazing shooty capabilities that absolutely destroy anything not in a Transport (which is all Tyranids).

Well, to be fair, FNP and cover can mitigate that to a big extent, though, yes, most Nids builds are really hurt by a lot of GK toys.

[Draconi Redfir]

Genestealers with rending claws were pretty good against vehicles back in the day, used em to destroy at least three dreadnaughts alone... granted those dreadnaughts then exploded and killed pretty much all of them, but they still tore it to shreds!

[Eldan]

Sounds like that wasn't this edition, then. Rending only adds a small bonus now. That's part of why nids lost a lot of their appeal.

[Penguinizer]

Not to mention the nerf to Scything Talons. Or the removal of Feeder Tendrils.

[Renegade Paladin]

Idk why I have them on the vendettas. I put them on the Valkyrie because I thought they complimented the valkyrie's anti infantry status quite well, if
You think I should lose them off the vendettas then i certainelly will, but I think I'll keep the ones on my Valkyrie.

Being S5, they're not defensive weapons and cannot be fired if the Valkyrie moves more than 6". Which it's going to do if you know what's good for you.

[Teln]

I know for a fact that Old One-Eye is in the current Tyranid codex.

[Tome]

I know for a fact that Old One-Eye is in the current Tyranid codex.

And he's terrible.

EDIT To avoid double-posting.

I've just realised that with the new Necron fluff this and this are now perfectly within cannon. All is forgiven.

[iyaerP]

As someone who lurks in this thread without hardly ever posting, I feel the need to do so simply to ask cheesegear what you mean when you say "MSU"

I can think of nothing fitting the acronym other than "marine standard unit" ie: the same thing as MEQ, but that doesn't seem to fit with how you use it.

[Ogremindes]

As someone who lurks in this thread without hardly ever posting, I feel the need to do so simply to ask cheesegear what you mean when you say "MSU"

I can think of nothing fitting the acronym other than "marine standard unit" ie: the same thing as MEQ, but that doesn't seem to fit with how you use it.

Multiple Small Units, IIRC.

[IthilanorStPete]

Multiple Small Units, IIRC.

Minimum-Sized Unit, I think. Though yours works as well. The point is, it refers to stuff like Blood Angels 5-man Assault Squads in Razorbacks, or 5-man Sternguard squads with two heavy weapons, that kind of thing.

[banjo1985]

Multiple Small Units, IIRC.

I've always heard it expressed as this, though both descriptions are pretty accurate as far as the intent goes. Essentially, you do your best to maximise your FoC chart with small units and associated transports, giving your opponent too many targets to take out. It gives you a distinct advantage in objective games (i.e. most games), but you can get screwed over in kill points.

As StPete said, BA in Razorbacks are a good example, as are Wracks/Warriors/Trueborn DE in Venoms. Some armies do it better than others, and BA and DE almost seem like they're specifically designed for it.

[Eldan]

Another part is that this allows you to field a lot of tanks (Mech is King!) without using up your heavy or fast slots, since the are attached to troops or elites.

[iyaerP]

Another part is that this allows you to field a lot of tanks (Mech is King!) without using up your heavy or fast slots, since the are attached to troops or elites.

So how often is this done with blood angel assault squads to make said vehicle 35 points cheaper?

[Eldan]

Often enough that there's a term for it, I'd say.

I don't actually see Marines all that often around here. The shop owner plays Tyranids and Eldar (he even has a hierophant standing around), and I've seen Chaos, Dark Eldar, Sisters, Nids and Necrons, but only a few marines.

[Drasius]

I've just realised that with the new Necron fluff this and this are now perfectly within cannon. All is forgiven.

That's the greatest thing I ever saw!

[Ricky S]

Often enough that there's a term for it, I'd say.

I don't actually see Marines all that often around here. The shop owner plays Tyranids and Eldar (he even has a hierophant standing around), and I've seen Chaos, Dark Eldar, Sisters, Nids and Necrons, but only a few marines.

No way! Only a few marine players? you should come into my store sometime It is about 60% marine players.

[HalfTangible]

No way! Only a few marine players? you should come into my store sometime It is about 60% marine players.

Our store has a demon army but no demon players.

And i think three or four Blood Angels players. I don't know if anyone even PLAYS codex marines...

[Ricky S]

Our store has a demon army but no demon players.

And i think three or four Blood Angels players. I don't know if anyone even PLAYS codex marines...

So the store has the armies and lets people use them? How can you have a demon army but no players for it?

Blood angels are marines.

[Cheesegear]

Some armies do it better than others, and BA and DE almost seem like they're specifically designed for it.

Blood Angels was an accident. The idea was that in Codex Marines, an Assault Squad gets a Rhino for free. So, in Blood Angels, you still get the Rhino for free (-35 Points), but you still have to pay for Fast. Reasonably, there's no real reason that a squad that isn't ten-man strong, shouldn't be able to take a Razorback, or, in fact any transport.

The problem is, that Assault Squads are Troops (despite Blood Angels being Codex adherant, thanks Ward), which means you can take six of them, and your Razorbacks are now Scoring. The designers didn't really intend for that to happen. They made some logical steps and came out with something broken.

The other problem is that 5-man Assault Squads can take special weapons.

Similarly, Dark Eldar weren't designed for MSU. They were just given the option of a 5-man Transport, same as Marines. The intention wasn't to force people to play MSU (in fact, Codecies aren't really designed for 'Competitive' play at all), but, it just so happens that it's really, really good. And, next edition we're likely to see something that shafts it. Similar to WHFB, they took a look at the armies that were stomping everyone, and took steps to correct it.

So how often is this done with blood angel assault squads to make said vehicle 35 points cheaper?

Razorbacks? All the time. Six Lascannons and Plasmaguns in your Troops. 3 Flamestorms in your Fast Attack, 3 Dakkapreds in your Heavy Support. You can handle pretty much anything with that kind of firepower.

Rhinos? Never (that I've seen). Spending points on five men, as well as a vehicle with no weapons, is not a better choice than buying a whole different squad of 5 men, with access to another vehicle with a weapon.

Drop Pods? Never (that I've seen). Most Blood Angel lists that I've seen only use one Drop Pod max, and an Assault Squad is not in it. Anything else that wants to Deep Strike comes out of DoA.

However, I have seen a couple of Land Raider lists. They're not fun.