Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXIII

[AMFV]

Put me in as a contestant. I have watched a few of these and am finally interested in the SI.

[Hecuba]

I'll try my hand at this one. These things always seem useful when I mine them for ideas, and I like this class in general.

[Private-Prinny]

For a RAW answer about the Divine Crusader's spell list, I sent a PM to Curmudgeon. That should clear up any issues.

[Piggy Knowles]

OK, I think I will actually enter this one, instead of just saying I will like last competition. I've got a pretty strong concept already, and it has overall come together already in my head, which is a good start...

This is a lot of fun, I've never really looked at Divine Crusader as a class, instead of just as a dip!

[Zaq]

Yeah. I've got a few interesting domains in mind. I expect to see at least one other person use one of them, which is why it's low on my "interesting stuff" list. There's one with fantastic flavor that I really want to get working, but I'm not confident that I can pull off the crunch.

The more I think about it, the more I like the whole "no, you can't just get other domains" thing. That way it becomes more about working with one domain than a race to expand your spells list as wide as possible.

[BillyBobJoe]

Actually, I've been think, and I think I'll compete instead of judging.

[OMG PONIES]

I think I will compete, maybe for once I will finish a build and not get discouraged after looking at Akal's or OMG's previous entries :P

Pish to the posh! If you want to feel better about yourself, look no farther than Felix or Perpetua. Not all of my builds win medals .

Don't get too disheartened, I liked the thought of going for a ranged dervish simply due to the sheer cheekiness of it. Too bad it doesn't work :'(

I second that emotion! I was actually angry when I found the clause in Complete Warrior saying you had to use melee attacks.

Plenty of options modify base casting or grant access to spells as though they are on a class spell list. Specific trumps general, so a specific RAW option could trump general DC spell preperation, depending on the exact text of options utilized.

I think that we do need to develop a party line for this competition, so that everyone can at least start on the same page.

Oh, and I'll be competing. There's an optimization domain, right?

[kestrel404]

...Why the heck is the Divine Crusader a PREPARED caster?!? They've only got 1 known spell per level - why do they have to prep that?

Well that kills my first build idea...

[Kefkafreak]

I think I'll compete this time. I have an... original idea. At the very least I might be a serious contender for honorable mention

[Zaq]

Sooooo many half-tricks floating around in my brain. Why won't they coalesce?

[OMG PONIES]

Sooooo many half-tricks floating around in my brain. Why won't they coalesce?

I feel your pain. I could fill a stable with all the one-trick ponies I've thought of for this round so far...let's see if I can make anything decent.

[Zaq]

Part of the problem, for me at least, is that I don't have too many domains memorized, so I can't brainstorm too terribly much if I'm not actually at my books. Other ingredients? Yeah, I might not have all the details down, but I can at least think of big-picture stuff and fun tricks. The DC basically is its domain, though, so without knowing exactly how that's going to work, I can't come up with too many useful ideas on the bus, you know?

[Private-Prinny]

I got a response from Curmudgeon about the RAW of the matter.

What ways, if any, are legal methods of adding spells to a Divine Crusader's spell list?

None. From page 34 of Complete Divine:

Spells per Day: A divine crusader casts divine spells. She may only prepare and cast spells from her chosen domain (see above). Effectively, a divine crusader has a class spell list of only nine spells (one per spell level).

If you want more spells, you've got to go outside the prestige class.

In addition, is it possible for a Divine Crusader to take a planar domain?

No. From page 282 of Spell Compendium:

A planar domain counts as both of a cleric’s domain choices.

A Divine Crusader doesn't have two domain choices, and isn't a Cleric.

So my original ruling stands.

[OMG PONIES]

So my original ruling stands.

But it seems like Curmudgeon contradicted you...

By RAW, a Divine Crusader can only cast spells of the one domain that they chose at first level. There is no wiggle room because of that sentence.

sounds very different than

If you want more spells, you've got to go outside the prestige class.

EDIT: Are we saying that divine crusaders can never ever have any spells outside of their one domain? Or are we saying that simply adding domains doesn't add spells to the Divine Crusader's list, but only prestige classes, feats, etc. that contain a clause like "you can add these spells to your spell list?"

[Private-Prinny]

EDIT: Are we saying that divine crusaders can never ever have any spells outside of their one domain? Or are we saying that simply adding domains doesn't add spells to the Divine Crusader's list, but only prestige classes, feats, etc. that contain a clause like "you can add these spells to your spell list?"

Curmudgeon can clear this up if he sees it, but I'm almost certain that he's saying that if you want more spells, you have to get separate slots for them from a different source. Adding stuff to the Divine Crusader spell list doesn't work.

[kestrel404]

I'm not sure that's really a valid argument, though. The class doesn't state that there's no way to add spells to your spell list, only that the class spell list consists of a very few specific spells.

Spells per Day: A divine crusader casts divine spells. She may only prepare and cast spells from her chosen domain (see above). Effectively, a divine crusader has a class spell list of only nine spells (one per spell level).

The only reason to argue is the text immediately before that stating that the Divine Crusader may "only prepare" spells from the chosen domain - implying that even if new spells are added to the spell list, they may not be prepared. But the text right after that which states that this is just so that they "Effectively...has a class spell list of" just those spells also implies, equally strongly, that any ability that adds spells to a class spell list would over-ride the previous statement.

Basically, it's a semantic wash. Bad editing at it's finest. A GM could interpret it either way, in my opinion.

If we're going to make a ruling, let's leave out the absolutes. How about anyone who relies on adding spells to the class spell list gets penalized in Elegance, the same as though they had taken a flaw? You're not breaking RAW, since the RAW is ambiguous, but you're also not necessarily going to get the character past every GM either.

Hope that helps.

[Vulaas]

My big question for this challenge is if domain granted abilities that reference cleric level will have minimum 1, or be entirely useless to you.

[Amphetryon]

I suppose I'll sign on as a judge for this one.

Spoiler

Show

MY CRITERIA: When more than a single example is given for a score, not all examples need be met to warrant that score.

Originality: Originality looks in part at the established archetypes and builds that the community at large has produced over the years. Characters attempting to perform, yet less adept at performing, as a well-established archetype - for instance, a charger - than typical for that archetype will score lower here than characters attempting to break new ground. Examples of a given score -
5 - A new concept, necessitating the Divine Crusader PrC.
4 - A new concept, using Divine Crusader without requiring it to tick.
3 - An unusual concept that has been showcased on gaming forums before, or that is featured in other contest entrants. It’s not new, but it’s not stock standard either.
2 - An old reliable concept, substituting Divine Crusader for the one typically used in discussions of builds of this type.
1 - A build either cut and pasted or cobbled together entirely from extant handbooks and other known works. No new ideas are presented.

Power: Power is measured assuming a 1st - 20th campaign. Characters that come to power very late in the progression, or that are somehow ineligible to play at low levels, can expect a deduction here as surely as characters whose power peaks at low-to-mid levels and then relatively diminishes. Examples of a given score, relative to other entrants in the contest -
5 - Easily the most powerful, flexible build presented here.
4 - A powerful character that might need help or additional preparation in specific circumstances to continue to do its job well.
3 - A build that is of average power for the contest, neither significantly stronger nor appreciably weaker overall. It may dominate in niche cases or be rendered weak in other niche cases.
2 - While less powerful than the typical entry for this contest, the character manages to contribute reasonably without relying on help from other party members.
1 - The build struggles to perform to the expectations typical for a character in the role assigned. Either the character relies heavily on help from other party members or requires specific equipment not restricted to the given role in order to be useful.

Elegance: Note that I tie the Elegance score closely to the Secret Ingredient. Shifter Druid 18/Moonspeaker 2 may be simple, but it is not an elegant use of Moonspeaker, to my mind. Note also that my default assumption is that characters presented are being inserted into an already-established world. A character that requires the DM to rewrite or ignore large swaths of existing fluff for your concept to work is unlikely to score highly in Elegance. References to Unearthed Arcana include those aspects of Unearthed Arcana that are included in the Variant section of the SRD. If I have to go hunting through books just to figure out where you got a particular feat, item, template, or obscure skill usage, expect no more than a 2 in Elegance. Examples of a given score -
5 - Divine Crusader is entered appropriately early and taken to completion. All class levels, feats, skills, and disclosed items are smoothly tied together and progress the whole concept seamlessly and in a logical order. Favored Class rules are adhered to, and single-level dips are kept to a bare minimum - no more than one. No Unearthed Arcana, templates, LA or Racial HD, or other obvious power-oriented shenanigans were used. One could reasonably expect a majority of DMs to allow both the concept and progression to happen in a typical game.
4 - Divine Crusader is entered reasonably early, perhaps delayed a bit or taken piecemeal, but finished. All class levels, feats, skills, and disclosed items are useful, but may not be intuitive choices to augment the presented concept. No Unearthed Arcana, templates, LA or Racial HD, or other obvious shenanigans were used, though Favored Class rules may have been ignored. One might expect to have to explain some bits of the build fairly carefully to a DM and possibly work out some accommodations, but flying books or dice bags are unlikely.
3 - Divine Crusader is taken to completion, but entered later than expected or typical of this contest. Class levels, feats, skills, and disclosed items are taken in a disjointed fashion, perhaps indicating power is more important than concept. This character may use a race with a level adjustment for thematic reasons, or be forced to take a flaw or two to fit everything in, or use some other method of grabbing more feats or spells or other features than one would typically expect. One would have to work closely with the DM for some features of the presented build to be available, work as described in the build presented, or come online in a timely fashion, and wouldn’t necessarily expect to get this character approved by a DM that doesn’t know the player well.
2 - Divine Crusader is abandoned before reaching its capstone or entered too late to finish before Epic levels. Class levels, feats, skills, and disclosed items do not share a unifying theme or work toward a more powerful whole. A template and LA are both included, possibly with flaws. Without an established rapport with a DM, one would expect the concept to meet with enough resistance that having a Plan B is advised when pitching the idea.
1 - Vivacious Anthropomorphic Dire Were-Squid Half-Fiend Domain Wizard with Frail and Inattentive and. . . no. Just no. So many discordant templates and feats and ideas have been slapped together that ‘a Wizard did it’ is the only viable explanation for the character’s existence. Divine Crusader appears to have been an afterthought to the overall design. You would fully expect the character idea either to be rejected by the DM, or to have come into being entirely through the DM’s meddling with your character, and wouldn’t broach the subject with the DM if dice, books or other potential projectiles were within easy reach.

Use of Secret Ingredient: This is a conglomeration of how well, and how thoroughly, you incorporate the abilities of the Secret Ingredient into the build. Examples of a given score, relative to other entrants -
5 - A fresh, original usage maximizing the particular strengths and minimizing the particular weaknesses of the Divine Crusader. Every aspect of Divine Crusader is utilized in the best way of any entry presented.
4 - A solid, complete usage of Divine Crusader. Specific strengths of the Secret Ingredient were emphasized with minimal emphasis taken away from other strengths, or without negating known weaknesses.
3 - Use of Divine Crusader was typical for the contest. Synergies were not emphasized especially, and some features of the Divine Crusader were ignored for the sake of maximizing a particular trick or two. If the main trick you're highlighting is the particular domain you're using, don't expect higher than a 3 here.
2 - Others used the Divine Crusader more thoroughly, but this entry’s usage wasn’t bad. The overall concept works but doesn’t especially synergize with the Divine Crusader's strengths well. If the main trick you're highlighting is based on your other class(es), don't expect higher than a 2 here.
1 - The Divine Crusader is actively hindering the concept presented. Clearly the character would have been stronger with a different Prestige Class, and the Divine Crusader got shoe-horned in there because of the contest.

Please note that, for my judging, Curmudgeon's ruling will be considered RAW.

[gbprime]

There seem to be enough judges, so I'm entering this time around. I've got a cool idea or three.

[OMG PONIES]

My big question for this challenge is if domain granted abilities that reference cleric level will have minimum 1, or be entirely useless to you.

It just keeps getting better. I think abilities that reference cleric level are quite clear--some specifically list a minimum of one, while the others would be completely useless. I'm intrigued to see how people will really get this class to work, since adding spells and abusing domain granted powers is becoming difficult.

Weapon Specialization optimization?

[gbprime]

My big question for this challenge is if domain granted abilities that reference cleric level will have minimum 1, or be entirely useless to you.

It also doesn't say what the Divine Crusader's caster level is. While I think we can safely assume it equals the levels in the PrC, I'd be inclined to play it safe on things that reference cleric level. IMO, either avoid them or don't rely on them, because odds are at least 1 judge will have a different opinion on it than you.

[Amphetryon]

Weapon Specialization optimization?

Sure, if you feel that Divine Crusader optimizes Weapon Specialization better than other classes that get access to it.

[DeAnno]

It just keeps getting better. I think abilities that reference cleric level are quite clear--some specifically list a minimum of one, while the others would be completely useless. I'm intrigued to see how people will really get this class to work, since adding spells and abusing domain granted powers is becoming difficult.

Weapon Specialization optimization?

It was especially funny how the Transformation Domain (excellent for gishing) was specifically worded to prevent Divine Crusader from entering it

[Zaq]

Quick question: If we want a domain that's not usually associated with any deities, what Weapon Focus do we take? For example, I can't find a source for some of the domains listed in the Spell Compendium (I won't say which, for fear of influencing people and/or tipping my hand). MOST of them are in CDiv, but not ALL of them. I see four options, none of which I really like:

1) Pick an existing deity, write a brief but cogent argument for why that deity should have that domain, and go from there. This is probably the best of the four, but it treads a little bit far from RAW for comfort.

2) Burn a feat on Weapon Focus without specifying what it is or gaining any specific benefit from it. You've paid the cost of entry, even if you don't get the usual secondary benefit. I don't like this because of how amazingly flavorless it ends up being.

3) Pick another domain. This will make me sad for reasons that should be obvious.

4) Use the "generic alignment" weapons and devote yourself to your alignment, which just happens to include your domain. (I think the generic associations are found under the Spiritual Weapon spell and possibly in Complete Champion). This is basically combining the problems with #1 and #2.

Any thoughts, judges and entrants?

[dextercorvia]

I think all of the domains presented in the Spell Compendium appeared somewhere else first. That would probably be the best place to check for affiliated dieties.

[Zaq]

Argh. I'm trying to be evasive and not make it immediately obvious which domain I'm using.

Assuming that there is, in fact, such a domain that doesn't actually have any associated deities, what then?

[Thurbane]

This list compiled by Curmudgeon is very useful.

[SowZ]

I may do this if I have the time.

[Amphetryon]

Quick question: If we want a domain that's not usually associated with any deities, what Weapon Focus do we take? For example, I can't find a source for some of the domains listed in the Spell Compendium (I won't say which, for fear of influencing people and/or tipping my hand). MOST of them are in CDiv, but not ALL of them. I see four options, none of which I really like:

1) Pick an existing deity, write a brief but cogent argument for why that deity should have that domain, and go from there. This is probably the best of the four, but it treads a little bit far from RAW for comfort.

2) Burn a feat on Weapon Focus without specifying what it is or gaining any specific benefit from it. You've paid the cost of entry, even if you don't get the usual secondary benefit. I don't like this because of how amazingly flavorless it ends up being.

3) Pick another domain. This will make me sad for reasons that should be obvious.

4) Use the "generic alignment" weapons and devote yourself to your alignment, which just happens to include your domain. (I think the generic associations are found under the Spiritual Weapon spell and possibly in Complete Champion). This is basically combining the problems with #1 and #2.

Any thoughts, judges and entrants?

If I were competing, I'd be most likely to lean to #1, recognizing that any of the above options might cause a deduction.

For additional anxiety creation, note that choosing a deity that ties you to a specific setting (Eberron, FRCS, etc.) has in the past been justification for a deduction.

[BillyBobJoe]

It's difficult to try to think of both an original, yet powerful domain. I was going to go for the Spell domain, when I realized ANYSPELL DOESN'T WORK WITH A DIVINE CRUSADER!!!