MS Paint Adventures 4: 13

[BRC]

Some stupid observations:

- The daedric text at the end of the intro flash says "Click ==> to continue". Click, not "press" or "push" or "hit" as usual for a keyboard. Therefore this is addressed not to the exile/troll/whatever that is reading it in-universe; but to the actual MSPA readers (us) who are using a mouse to click on instructions and progress in the story.

- There's at least three movies with "Knight" in their titles, all in close proximity. I guess Jake is going to be the session's knight.

- Jake is the same name as John, etymologically. (But not the same as Jack, which might seem closer, but is itself instead the same name as James or Jacob.) Jane is also the same name as John, etymologically, just the feminine version.

Poking around on the MSPA forums
a skull on every PAGE: Jake is the PAGE of HOPE.

MAIDEN VOYAGE+ LIFE: Jane is the MAID of LIFE.

[Tectonic Robot]

Soooo... Jake would give his right leg for adventure... Lord English has a peg leg...

Jake's color seems to be green... Lord English is green...

Jake has the Lord English B-Movie poster on his wall, next to a hulk movie...

This is too obvious. Simply too obvious..

[Lix Lorn]

Bro and Mom will probably be the Time and Space players respectively. Every session has them after all.

Personally I hope it's the other way around, just so Bro isn't the same as Dave.

[Draconi Redfir]

Jane - Life


Jake - Hope


Bro and Mom will probably be the Time and Space players respectively. Every session has them after all.

i dunno, i was kinda figureing time and space need to be unrelated to one annother, though i guess i could be wrong.

Though Dave/Jade and Kanaya/Aradia were on diffrent moons from one annother... idek anymore.


At least your not saying Bro and Mom will be Void and Heart for whatever reason like some people i've encountered

Soooo... Jake would give his right leg for adventure... Lord English has a peg leg...

Jake's color seems to be green... Lord English is green...

Jake has the Lord English B-Movie poster on his wall, next to a hulk movie...

This is too obvious. Simply too obvious..

he also has this poster on his wall.

Don't get any ideas though, Jake is not lord English. a more likely reason would be he is acting as his timeline's version of the Subjuggulators, which were influenced by lord English. Since this is the scratched universe, and an alternate Doc Scratch exists in this timeline, then that means english will appear in this universe to eat it at it's end. He then goes back in time to dink about and spread his influence to ensure his own summoning, just like he did with the troll session.


TL;DR Jack =/= LE, Jack = read too many legends about LE.

[AgentPaper]

Why does every session need a time and space player? Nothing we have seen so far has shown that. There happens to be one in each session, but you could just as easily say that there is always a Knight and Seer in every session because we've seen two of those too. The fact that both Space players were the ones tasked with frog-breeding is a bit more telling, but the most we can think from that is that Space players tend to be the frog-gatherers, but nothing in the frog quest actually requires the Space player's powers.

[CrimsonAngel]

Poking around on the MSPA forums
a skull on every PAGE: Jake is the PAGE of HOPE.

MAIDEN VOYAGE+ LIFE: Jane is the MAID of LIFE.

But but but my fan character is already the Maid of Life.

There is a caduceus above the monitor in the new flash. The user has gray skin... Ophiuchus is the troll in between Nepeta and Kanaya, maybe?

[RebelRogue]

I agree that Jake being LE would be way too obvious. Still, it will certainly have some significance.

I really love the recent MSPA material

Edit: Is that a giant vine or other monstrous plant growing up the stairs?

[Draconi Redfir]

Why does every session need a time and space player? Nothing we have seen so far has shown that. There happens to be one in each session, but you could just as easily say that there is always a Knight and Seer in every session because we've seen two of those too. The fact that both Space players were the ones tasked with frog-breeding is a bit more telling, but the most we can think from that is that Space players tend to be the frog-gatherers, but nothing in the frog quest actually requires the Space player's powers.

From this page

Doc Scratch implies that every session will have a Hero of Time, and if the breeding duties are indeed linked to the Hero of Space they would be another constant in the game. Apart from this, the mechanical functions of the classes are unknown.

it's been shown that breeding duties are indeed linked to the hero of space, so every session needs one of time and one of space.

plus you know "time and space" are pretty important inside a universe.

And only a time or a space player can navigate the furthest ring

And you cant win the game without time travel

And you cant win the game without breeding frogs

And every game has the option to be scratched on the time player's planet.

And the forge is always on the Space player’s planet.

etc.


Edit; And were is that "13th troll" symbol everyone keeps talking about on this page? i'm only seeing standard Alternian letters.

edit 2; Or that "Click X" instead of press/push.whatever thing.

[AgentPaper]

it's been shown that breeding duties are indeed linked to the hero of space, so every session needs one of time and one of space.

Where?

plus you know "time and space" are pretty important inside a universe.

Yeah, but so is breathing, and light, and hope, and so on and so forth.

And only a time or a space player can navigate the furthest ring

Possibly true, but we haven't seen anything that says that navigating the furthest ring is actually something you need to be doing in a normal session.

And you cant win the game without time travel

Says who? It certainly helps, but so do all the other powers.

And you cant win the game without breeding frogs

Yes, but where have we seen that only space players can breed frogs? It's certainly possible that space players will always be chosen for frog breeding, but that doesn't mean a space player is required. In the absence of a space player, it could easily fall to someone else to breed the frogs. It could also be that frog breeding is tasked to the first person to awake in Skaia, and the fact that both space players woke up first was a coincidence.

And every game has the option to be scratched on the time player's planet.

And the forge is always on the Space player’s planet.

Same with the above, where is this stuff stated?

[Draconi Redfir]

Where?

This page under "witch of space" and "Slyph of space"

Yeah, but so is breathing, and light, and hope, and so on and so forth.

Hopeless blind creatures that don't need to breathe have a possibility of existing

But seriously, it's more to the universe itself, you can't have time without matter to change, you need space. You can't have space without something to make things change, you need time. The two are intertwined throughout all existence, removing one makes the other completely worthless.

Possibly true, but we haven't seen anything that says that navigating the furthest ring is actually something you need to be doing in a normal session.

True, still a valid point that it puts direct emphasis on the time and space players.

Says who? It certainly helps, but so do all the other powers.

Andrew hussie, Doc Scratch, and this page. Also see "every session gets a chance to scratch" and "the scratch device is on the time-players planet"

As for why, doomed timelines. see; AradiaArmy. Every time Karkat was about to do something that would do something stupid and create an offshot timeline, a doomed Aradia would appear to stop him. also see; Davesprite. Without the timetravel granted by the time player, alpha timelines would not get the warnings and instructions they need from the doomed timelines to prevent becoming doomed themselves, and nothing would get done.

Yes, but where have we seen that only space players can breed frogs? It's certainly possible that space players will always be chosen for frog breeding, but that doesn't mean a space player is required. In the absence of a space player, it could easily fall to someone else to breed the frogs. It could also be that frog breeding is tasked to the first person to awake in Skaia, and the fact that both space players woke up first was a coincidence.

Kanaya said it when she was instructing Jade on how to breed frogs i believe, something about it being the space players job.

Also this page. (scroll down to "The space" point under the list of current sburb/grub player titles.

Same with the above, where is this stuff stated?

Andrew hussie, doc scratch, and this page. as well as a few pages within the comic itself i believe.

Really it would be so much easier if i could just look through Hussie's old formspring page to see were he said a space and a time player is needed to complete the game, but nooo he had to close it

[AgentPaper]

I was more hoping for links to pages of the comic, not pages to the speculation page of a fan-run site. That's not exactly somewhere to be going for proof to back a hypothesis. (Well, except to find links of course, but that page seems sadly lacking in such)

[Fawkes]

Edit; And were is that "13th troll" symbol everyone keeps talking about on this page? i'm only seeing standard Alternian letters.

It's at the very end of the flash. I was going to screenshot it, but F5 does something very different on browsers than it does in Team Fortress 2.

[Draconi Redfir]

it's kinda hard to dig up this informaition with the longest webcomic in existance

And dangit, now i gotta watch Jane stare off into space like a derp for the too-long-for-my-tastes time that takes.

[Morganatic]

Edit; And were is that "13th troll" symbol everyone keeps talking about on this page? i'm only seeing standard Alternian letters.

edit 2; Or that "Click X" instead of press/push.whatever thing.

There are 13 constellations on the ecliptic, but only 12 signs in the mainstream traditional zodiac - the odd one out being Ophiuchus/Serpentarius, the 'serpent-bearer', who was traditionally associated with Asclepius, the Greek god of healing (one might almost call him a Doctor). His symbol was the Staff of Asclepius, a stick with two snakes around it, seen at the top of the monitor here:

Spoiler

Show

Now there's been a lot of speculation as the possibility of a 13th troll (front runners were that it was either Andrew Hussie himself, or Toby 'Radiation' Fox). Hussie's infamous for littering the story with hints he can return to - or not - later, but this, together with the hand/shape colour is pretty heavy 13th troll symbolism.

[mp122984]

it's been shown that breeding duties are indeed linked to the hero of space, so every session needs one of time and one of space.

Where?

And every game has the option to be scratched on the time player's planet.

And the forge is always on the Space player’s planet.

Same with the above, where is this stuff stated?

From Karkat's conversation here it is at least believed that if there is a Hero of Space they will be in charge of the forge and frogs. It's unknown if there is a "contingency player", but from Davesprite's remarks, it apparently can't be the Heroes of Time or Light.

The Scratch mechanism, on the other hand, is explicitly stated to be on the Hero of Time's planet.

And you cant win the game without time travel

Says who? It certainly helps, but so do all the other powers.

If we take breeding the Genesis Frog as the win condition, then the Kids' session itself ldidn't allow enough time for it. They apparently did have to cheat the system with stable time loops.

Actually, time travel isn't even technically needed to win (assuming that your deadline hasn't been move up due to shenanigans). What's apparently needed is to accept Echnida's bargain, as only the denizen knows where to find the final frog. I guess it's possible to use time travel to brute-force finding the critical frog, but that'd require either a lot of luck or a ton of time-looping.

Edit: Ninja'd

[Draconi Redfir]

ahh ok i remember noticing that now, thought it resembled my medic alert bracelet, but i figured it was just a computer logo or something.

edit; Thanks for the links MP

edit2: a comment in that doctor video... "The doctor's got to cure the cancer huh?" ...iiinteresting...

[AgentPaper]

Found this while searching for the references in doc's logs myself. It's basically a list of all the chat logs sorted by date and by character, which makes it much easier to sort through all of them to find what you need.

It does look like Doc Scratch has outright stated that the Beta Mesa equivalent will always be on the Time player's planet. Since there will always be a beat mesa equivalent, that does imply that there will also be a time player so the mesa can go on their world, but Doc doesn't outright say that there will always be a time player, and since this is Doc Scratch we're talking about, what he doesn't say is just as important as what he does, or even more so. (Though I don't know why he would be dodging around this particular idea)

[mp122984]

Found this while searching for the references in doc's logs myself. It's basically a list of all the chat logs sorted by date and by character, which makes it much easier to sort through all of them to find what you need.

It does look like Doc Scratch has outright stated that the Beta Mesa equivalent will always be on the Time player's planet. Since there will always be a beat mesa equivalent, that does imply that there will also be a time player so the mesa can go on their world, but Doc doesn't outright say that there will always be a time player, and since this is Doc Scratch we're talking about, what he doesn't say is just as important as what he does, or even more so. (Though I don't know why he would be dodging around this particular idea)

I've been thinking about this myself because of this conversation. From what we've seen, no Hero of Time means no Scratch and no time travel. We know that the trolls beat their session without the Scratch. I suppose that one could beat the game without time travel, but it'd be kind of like beating I Want To Be The Guy without save points (i.e. Yeah, not happening.)

Also. I do my searching here. It has the recap and nonlog stuff too.

[BRC]

I've been thinking about this myself because of this conversation. From what we've seen, no Hero of Time means no Scratch and no time travel. We know that the trolls beat their session without the Scratch. I suppose that one could beat the game without time travel, but it'd be kind of like beating I Want To Be The Guy without save points (i.e. Yeah, not happening.)

Also. I do my searching here. It has the recap and nonlog stuff too.

No they didn't. Alternia as we know it is the result of a Scratch.

[AgentPaper]

Actually, the trolls did have to scratch their session. The trolls we see were actually the original ancestors, and the ancestors were the players.

[BRC]

Actually, the trolls did have to scratch their session. The trolls we see were actually the original ancestors, and the ancestors were the players.

It just so happens that the Trolls were more or less exact copies of their Ancestors,( as opposed to the Kids, each of whom got ectoslime from two ancestors), so in the end it didn't really matter.

[mp122984]

Actually, the trolls did have to scratch their session. The trolls we see were actually the original ancestors, and the ancestors were the players.

Ah, my apologies for being unclear. While the Troll ancestors had to Scratch their session, the Trolls (Karkat and the rest) did not. Indeed, the whole point of the Scratch is to create a session that doesn't need to be Scratched, at least according to Doc Scratch.

[Draconi Redfir]

if what i understand is true, the nature of scratching goes something like this.


Universe born, no English no Doc, everything is natural and happy.

Universe produces sessions A B C D and E

Session A is successful on the first try* all others must scratch.

Universe is re-born, English will happen in this universe, Doc exists in this universe, parents become children and vice versa, other small changes occur to make the players a little stronger. In this reborn universe, sessions B C D and E exist, but session A does not, as they completed their task and made a new universe no problem.

Sessions B and C are successful, A is not present*, D must scratch again, E dies.

Universe is re-reborn, English, and Doc still exist, parents and kids may be mixed up more (Dave, Mom, Nana, and Jake, playing together for example) more things change to make the players stronger still. like A in the first scratch, B and C do not exist in this version of the universe because they did not scratch their session. Session E may or may not exist in this version of the universe as they did not scratch their session before dieing n the old one, I would put my money on them being re-born yet again.

D is successful, E if it exists needs to scratch yet again, Cycle continues.


* I believe it has been suggested somewhere that it is impossible for a universe to bear young without the interference of English and/or doc scratch, so the parts about session A being successful on the first try MAY be a lie. I’m unsure at this moment however.


Basically every session that scratches successfully is stored in a "buffer" to await the rebirth of the universe, this allows those who did not scratch to proceed into their new universe with the memories of the one they came from intact, no point in scratching a successful session after all. Those who die, not sure about those ones. They either get auto-scratched or cease to exist.

Once every session has either succeeded, died, or scratched, the universe collects those who have successfully scratched (and maybe died), swaps them around a bit, and makes life a little more difficult so they need to be stronger to survive.

Then this just keeps on happening until every session is either successful or (assuming being dead means you cease to exist to the universe) dead.

Naturally however since this is a timeless expanse they are in you could scratch your session after a thousand years of playing and it would make no difference then if you scratched the moment you arrived, the universe won't reset until you scratch or win, but at the same time already has reset because you already have scratched or won.

kiinda confusing, but i hope you get the idea.

[mp122984]

I believe a session can't auto-scratch itself; There's a term "Null session", presumably as a reference to sessions that either didn't create new universes or that did and either way are now left to linger in paradox space.

The issue is how common Scratching is. This conversation can either imply that Scratching is not common or only that Scratching due to an "an unstoppable adversary Who triggers the reckoning prematurely" is uncommon.

I had conceived my own cycle, similar to but simpler than Draconi's (which is why I'm copying part of it ) :

Universe born flawed, no English no Doc, everything is natural and happy.

Universe produces session A, and may or may not produce sessions B C D E.

Flaws in the Universe force Session A to scratch. Any other sessions go null.

Universe is re-born, English will happen in this universe, Doc exists in this universe, parents become children and vice versa, other small changes occur to make the players a little stronger.

In this reborn universe, Universe produces session A', and may or may not produce sessions B' C' D' E'.

Other sessions (if any) go null, but Session A' is successful. But universe was reborn and manipulated in such a way that the universe created by Session A' is flawed, repeating the cycle.

Either cycle is possible, But again, it's all in how common scratching the session is.

[irenicObserver]

And... Jane and Jake already have facebook pages.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Hm. Jane ALSO has the Uberbunny...

[Trazoi]

Angry Dancing Hussie is the best Hussie.

[Draconi Redfir]

*scratch and snip*

Possible, however i believe it may suffer from a fatal flaw which would ultimately cause the extinction of paradox space.



Assuming any universe which is scratched only produces one successful universe, the entire universe frog species would ultimately go extinct, the very goal of reproduction is to "replace your numbers and then some" to put it simply, if you and i were two in a population of ten, had one child together, and then died, our population would be at nine, or negative one. If we had two children before death, our population would stay at ten, which while better then nine, still has the possibility of dieing out. If we have three or more children before death, then not only have we replaced ourselves in the population, but we have also added to it to allow the population to grow.

In terms of universe frogs who in a sense reproduce asexually this is not quite the same, if one universe frog produces one offspring only then while it is replaced, the total number of universes existing at any given time will not go up, and should a universe fail to produce even one offspring, the population would go down and be impossible to recover.

to put it simply, we have ten universe frogs. all of these frogs produce an offspring and then die, we still have ten.

Then nine of those ten produce one offspring, the last one produces none, the population is now lower then before and can not go back up since they can not produce more then one offspring before death.

9 > 9 > 8 > 8 > 8 > 7 > 6> 4> 4> 4> 4> 2> 1> 1> 1> 0 > end of all existence.

it may take one heck of a long time, but if each universe only produces one universe as an offspring, there is absolutely no room for error, every universe MUST produce an offspring, and if they do not then the species will die. With multiple universe offspring however you have more leeway for mistakes and experiments, for example say the troll universe produced the infertile human frog, as well as a fertile chicken frog, a fertile llama frog, and a fertile potato frog. Out of it's four children only one is unable to add to the population, meaning it's existence before death is still a net gain, were it only one child per universe, then the human frog makes the troll frog's success meaningless, which makes the squiddle frog meaningless, which makes whatever came before that's frog meaningless, and so on.

in short, assuming i read your scratch theory correctly and did not just waste a lot of time, the entirety of paradox space as a whole is doomed since there is no increase in the universe population, only a decrease. And unless universe A creates B creates C creates D creates A or some larger form of the circle exists (which would be completely stupid) then it will eventually get to the point were no new universes are created and everything dies. Whereas assuming my theory is correct in which every universe continues to be reset until all the players are either dead or successful, then the total number of universes goes up over time, creating a stable paradox-fuelled ecosystem of giant sparkling rainbow-frogs destined to be eaten by a one-legged honking skull-puppet.

All in all everything i just wrote was way too long and i apologize.

[mp122984]

Possible, however i believe it may suffer from a fatal flaw which would ultimately cause the extinction of paradox space.

in short, assuming i read your scratch theory correctly and did not just waste a lot of time, the entirety of paradox space as a whole is doomed since there is no increase in the universe population, only a decrease. And unless universe A creates B creates C creates D creates A or some larger form of the circle exists (which would be completely stupid) then it will eventually get to the point were no new universes are created and everything dies. Whereas assuming my theory is correct in which every universe continues to be reset until all the players are either dead or successful, then the total number of universes goes up over time, creating a stable paradox-fuelled ecosystem of giant sparkling rainbow-frogs destined to be eaten by a one-legged honking skull-puppet.

All in all everything i just wrote was way too long and i apologize.

No prob. You did read my theory correctly, and your point is valid, which is why I see your theory as valid as well. I've given mine a bit of thought, and a theory's crystallized:

Sburb/Sgrub/Swhatever, as it is, is not meant to be won on its own.

Three-ish sessions (Troll Ancestors, Trolls, Kids, what we see of Kids Alpha) is admittedly a poor sample size, but from what we can tell, there are two main issues with the game.

1. Entry: The game seems to eat entire races for breakfast. That we know of, the session Pre-Troll Ancestry was 48, Troll Ancestry/Troll was 12, and Kids/Kids Alpha was 4 (or 5 if you count Fedora Freak). The unintuitive (e.g. a three-part chain to creating the cruxite artifact), unforgiving (e.g. You apparently lose if you don't prototype pre-entry), and apparently (at least until the meteors start dropping) undocumented mechanics combined with the killer deadlines seem to guarantee a minimal number of players and sessions. The fact that the process is wrapped up as a game marketed to kids who are mostly old enough to make rocks fall, everyone dies but not old enough to figure out what to do doesn't help.

2. The game itself. In the one session we know succeed (Trolls), the players were to scale the echeladders, build the ultimate weapons, defeat all the enemies, make their own paradox clones, solve the riddles defeat the monarchs of derse, make the genesis frog, not die, etc., etc., in the span of 25 days. Even allowing for time shenanigans, that is an absurdly difficult set of tasks, particularly when the players are still all kids (see 1.).

I'm really starting to think that the game is not supposed to be winnable without outside intervention - namely, that of Doc Scratch and Lord English. They, for their inscrutable reasons, pick one session and help it to create the next universe and continue the cycle. With only one universe at a time, there need be only one Doc Scratch and one Lord English at a time. And if it looks like the chain is for some reason going to dead-end, well that's what the Scratch is for. Indeed, it's quite possible that they force every universe to scratch at least once to make sure that conditions are perfect each time.

Edit: Forgot to add that given the whole Green Sun bit, I was honestly half-expecting Act 6 to start with Lord English sending a message to the kids/trolls along the lines of "Hey, thanks for everything. I think it's time for me to retire. Enjoy your lifeless Paradox Space, suckers."

tldr: Doc Scratch and Lord English force a universe replacement rate of 1.0 for their own sakes. Anyways, this has also been very long, and thanks for reading.

[Friv]

Assuming any universe which is scratched only produces one successful universe, the entire universe frog species would ultimately go extinct, the very goal of reproduction is to "replace your numbers and then some" to put it simply, if you and i were two in a population of ten, had one child together, and then died, our population would be at nine, or negative one. If we had two children before death, our population would stay at ten, which while better then nine, still has the possibility of dieing out. If we have three or more children before death, then not only have we replaced ourselves in the population, but we have also added to it to allow the population to grow.

Fortunately, this isn't the case. Back when Nana was first explaining SBURB to John, which was, like, Act 2 or something, she said that the game sacrificed a planet to create a universe. This at least strongly implies that multiple planets in an unscratched universe are capable of hosting their own sessions, each of which will obliterate a single species in order to birth a new universe.

Presumably, the fact that trolls went from an ordinary civilization to a galaxy-spanning one is in some way connected to the fact that they were Scratched, thereby putting their entire universe in prey mode and wiping out any other planets' chances, but maybe not - maybe the mediums of the other races succeeded before they got scratched, and birthed new universes. The problem is, the kids' and trolls' sessions were the sessions used to create the Green Sun, so you can't really use them as a baseline for how universes and sessions operate.